English can be a funny language

[chrisp]

Do you sometimes have one of those moments when you question the meaning of a commonly used expression?

The other week I heard a story on the radio about someone coming to Australia during the war. They recounted that the ship was lucky to survive as it was attacked but fortunately the torpedo was a "near miss" and every one was safe. Somehow "near miss" has stuck in my mind.

Consider:
If the torpedo completely "missed" the target the ship survived - this is a "miss"
If the torpedo had a direct "hit" the ship would have probably sunk - this is a "hit"
If the torpedo just missed the ship, the ship would have survived - is this a "near hit", but we call it a "near miss"?:?
If the torpedo just hit the ship, the ship would have probably sunk - isn't this a "near miss"?I wonder if "near miss" is an oxymoron?

I'm still thinking about "over engineered"...:)

[jmk89]

Do you sometimes have one of those moments when you question the meaning of a commonly used expression?

The other week I heard a story on the radio about someone coming to Australia during the war. They recounted that the ship was lucky to survive as it was attacked but fortunately the torpedo was a "near miss" and every one was safe. Somehow "near miss" has stuck in my mind.

Consider:

If the torpedo completely "missed" the target the ship survived - this is a "miss"
If the torpedo had a direct "hit" the ship would have probably sunk - this is a "hit"
If the torpedo just missed the ship, the ship would have survived - is this a "near hit", but we call it a "near miss"?:?
If the torpedo just hit the ship, the ship would have probably sunk - isn't this a "near miss"?I wonder if "near miss" is an oxymoron?

I'm still thinking about "over engineered"...:)

I'm not sure what the relevant term for it is but I think near miss is a kind of contraction. I think it is short for "near but missed". In other words "near" does not affect the word miss but is an adverb qualifying where the torpedo "was". The second verb "missed" has become a noun, "miss".

[silentC]

It means a miss that was damn near being a hit!

What about cheap at half the price. That one always has me stumped...

[powderpost]

At home here in Aus. after two weeks in England, I got to thinking about the "English" we use. How about......
cheese and kisses = missus = wife
butchers hook = crook = sick
joe blake = snake and so on.
Where did these come from? there are enough of these to fill ten books. Want to add to them?
Jim

[echnidna]

tit for = tit for tat = hat

[silentC]

'twas the poms who started that - cockney rhyming slang.

Butchers actually means to have a look: butcher's hook, look, take a butchers at that. Tea leaf = thief, porkies = pork pies = lies. And so on. It was all their invention, we just took it over.

[silentC]

Have a butchers at this, me old china:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_rhyming_slang

[Gingermick]

Their is a word for it but I got hit in the head the other day and now can't remember.
Another example is advanced warning or prior warning.
The use of an adjective where the verb or noun is descriptive is a 'serious problem' for those who suffer from verbally speaking too much all the time.:D

[MurrayD99]

Gonna go and have a Ruby Murray then?

[silentC]

Nah I had a dog's eye for lunch with the trouble and strife.

[AlexS]

Nah I had a dog's eye for lunch with the trouble and strife.

So did you have some dead horse on it?

[silentC]

Yep. And it was a Sydney pie too...

[MurrayD99]

Yep. And it was a Sydney pie too...

Didn't drip any on yer whistle & flute?:D

[silentC]

You mean bag of fruit? Nah, I don't get dressed up for work any more :D

[Gingermick]

It's a tautology.

[silentC]

I disagree. The word 'miss' does not tell you how close it was. If I kick a ball at 90 degrees to the goal post, then I have "missed by a mile". If it just whizzes by the wrong side of the post, then it is a 'near' miss. I think that an adjective is OK in that context. In some cases it is important to know how close it was, like when a torpedo is aimed at your boat, a near miss is more dramatic.

A tautology is only such if the adjective or adverb is already implied in the noun or verb that is being modified. Free gift is a tautology, as is pierced through. Near miss is not.

It's not an oxymoron either because near does not contradict miss.

People say "miss hit", when they mean someone hit the ball incorrectly, and on the face of it that is an oxymoron. But miss is used in the sense of misfit or mismatch, rather than miss vs hit. Same source probably.

[HappyHammer]

The stereotype of someone from East London, like myself, speaking in rhyming slang is so funny. Much of the more commonly known rhyming slang isn't used anymore and when rhyming slang is used it's usually only a single word as suggested by some above such as;
Whistle = suit
Barnet = hair
Tom = Jewelery
Tin Bath = laugh, commonly spoken as "You're 'aving a large tin one mate"

I've never heard anyone say "apples and pears" just doesn't happen except when Dick Van Dyke did his terrible cockney accent in Mary Poppins total crap.

HH.

[Gingermick]

I disagree. The word 'miss' does not tell you how close it was. If I kick a ball at 90 degrees to the goal post, then I have "missed by a mile". If it just whizzes by the wrong side of the post, then it is a 'near' miss.

And the goal umpire gives you the same result either way. When you get into the colloquial connotations ie did you hit it? 'nearly' means you missed and the adjective near is adjacent enough to the adverb nearly for me to give it a behind in the tautological sense. :D Of course nearly missed is an entirely different proposition, and I may be drivelling.
So i've just convinced myself you were right. But i like the word tautology and thought I'd throw it in.

[silentC]

But the word 'miss' doesn't imply it was near, so when the coach is deciding who gets the job of kicking conversions, the guy with the near miss will get looked at before the guy who put it in the commentary box :wink:

[Gingermick]

This has been interesting, I nearly missed this thread and would have been unhappily disappointed had that occurance eventuated.:)

[silentC]

This has been interesting
You need to get out more!!

[Gingermick]

I'm designing a subdivision on a block of land that has an average grade of 1 in 3. And it's sheeeeting me.

[jmk89]

Mishit

It is not a combination of miss and hit
It is one word meaning a bad hit - like a cricket shot off the splice: it is a hit but not a good one


Near miss

it was a near miss: it was a miss that was near.
It is not illogical, it is just that "near" qualifies the verb "to be" and "miss" is functioning as an adjective modifying the subject of the verb "to be"

[silentC]

It is not a combination of miss and hit
You're kidding aren't you?

I actually doubt mishit is a word. I believe it is a hypenated word - miss-hit - if anything. "define:mishit" brings up nada but googling mishit gets a few hits - but then don't believe everything you read on the internet.

But regardless there is no doubt in my mind that the phrase (or word if you insist) comes directly from "miss" and "hit", as does misfit (miss-fit - a fit that misses) and mismatch (miss-match - a match that misses).

[silentC]

OK I've looked that one up. mis- and miss both come from the same root: missa- so I will concede your point.

[silentC]

No, I've done some more research on it. The word mishit doesn't exist in any of my dictionaries - including Macquarie and they are fairly progressive about adding new words. So it's either a non-word based on mis-hit or it is a hyphenated word miss-hit. The latter is acceptable, the former plainly not!! :p

I was wrong about misfit and mismatch though - seems the prefix mis- is at least as old as the word miss.

[echnidna]

could it be mi-???? :D :D :D :D

[jmk89]

No, I've done some more research on it. The word mishit doesn't exist in any of my dictionaries - including Macquarie and they are fairly progressive about adding new words. So it's either a non-word based on mis-hit or it is a hyphenated word miss-hit. The latter is acceptable, the former plainly not!! :p

I was wrong about misfit and mismatch though - seems the prefix mis- is at least as old as the word miss.

The explanation of Mis- (and why the hyphen does not appear) in the Shorter OED suffices for me; ie it is an adverb meaning "badly" affixed as a prefix to a verb. Mishit means "badly hit". You only need the hyphen if it is a new word - one it is part of the language, the hyphen will go.

[silentC]

could it be mi-????
Yeah that struck me too. The tendency is to want to pronounce it mi-sh-i-t. I'm sure I've never seen it written anywhere, but I just Googled it and got 96,500 hits on it vs. only about 70,000 on "miss hit". Must be an American thing...

[silentC]

The explanation of Mis- (and why the hyphen does not appear) in the Shorter OED suffices for me
So does the OED list mishit specifically?

[chrisp]

I've been looking too and found this:
http://www.xoup.net/peeves/nearmiss.php
It doesn't really support my questioning of "near miss" but it seems it is an issue that has been raised by many.

I might did out my copy of "Eats Shoots and Leaves" (I prefer "Eats roots and leaves":wink:) as I recall it had something about this issue in it.

"Idiom" seems to be a relevant word.

[silentC]

What about 'upside the head'. What the hell is that? Alright, already!!

[Gingermick]

Yeah, no, upside the head is grammatically correct and makes sense:doh:

[Gingermick]

[quote=silentC;520090]I actually doubt mishit is a word. quote]

Macquarie Australia's national dictionary, third edition 1998,
I'm stunned. Mishit - To hit faultily

[silentC]

Is it in there? This is what I get from their online version:


Macquarie Dictionary Online
Sorry

We could not find "mishit".

Try Fuzzy Search by selecting the box at the top of the page

For help on improving your search results go to our Search Help page.

[munruben]

My wife went to bingo last night and she told me she nearly won the jackpot.
I asked her how she "nearly won" and she said I was waiting for just one number to be called out but it didn't get called but if it had been called I would have won.
Is that the same as a near miss?

[silentC]

No John, that's called bad luck :)

I found mis-hit, so I guess it must be a word:


The Macquarie Dictionary

mis-hit
// (say mis-'hit) verb, // (say 'mis-hit) noun Cricket, Golf, Tennis, etc.
--verb (t) 1. to hit (the ball) faultily, as when batting.
--verb (i) 2. to make a faulty stroke.
--noun 3. a faulty stroke.

Reminds me of the Blackadder episode Ink and Incapability.

[Gingermick]

Still stunned by this apparent usurption of proper english by the vernacular.
I offer mny most hearty contrafibularities.

[silentC]

Well, they don't call it the living language for nothing. My English teacher Mr Gilmour would turn in his grave. If he was dead. In fact I reckon if he saw that entry in Macquarie dictionary, he would say "Lord, take me now!". The he would turn in his grave...

I suppose if people use a word enough, it eventually passes into legitimate usage. And as long as we have people like Macquarie running around rewriting history (and let's face it, they have to sell dictionaries) then it will never end.

It should have stopped with Samuel Johnson:

When I took the first survey of my undertaking, I found our speech copious without order, and energetick without rules: wherever I turned my view, there was perplexity to be disentangled, and confusion to be regulated; choice was to be made out of boundless variety, without any established principle of selection; adulterations were to be detected, without a settled test of purity; and modes of expression to be rejected or received, without the suffrages of any writers of classical reputation or acknowledged authority.

[munruben]

Also in the Chambers dictionary. Sorry pic is not too clear

[silentC]

How old is your Chambers? It's not in my copy.

It's not in my copy of Websters either. So we know it wasn't in common use back in 1894 :D

[munruben]

The edition I have was published in 1998

[chrisp]

So does the OED list mishit specifically?

Yes...(on-line version).

mishit, n.

Sport (orig. Cricket).

A faulty, mistimed, or misdirected stroke or shot. <nobr><!--start_ed--><!--start_d-->1882<!--end_d--><!--end_ed--></nobr> <!--start_ew--><!--start_w-->Australians in Eng.<!--end_w--><!--end_ew--> 25 He made two mishits which fell harmless. <nobr><!--start_d-->1898<!--end_d--></nobr> <!--start_w-->Westm. Gaz.<!--end_w--> I Jan. 5/1 Caught at mid-off by Hirst, off a mis-hit. <nobr><!--start_d-->1928<!--end_d--></nobr> <!--start_w-->Daily Tel.<!--end_w--> 11 May 18/1 Lyon has never played a better innings... I did not notice that he made even a mis-hit. <nobr><!--start_d-->1963<!--end_d--></nobr> <!--start_w-->Times<!--end_w--> 11 June 4/6 Bear's bold effort ended in a mishit to leg slip. <nobr><!--start_d-->1991<!--end_d--></nobr> <!--start_w-->Golf for Women<!--end_w--> Apr. 86/2 Designed with perimeter weighting to correct mis-hits, these clubs are available in right-hand or left-hand models.

mishit, v.

Sport (orig. Cricket).

trans. To hit or kick (a ball) in an unintentional manner or direction; (also) to strike a delivery from (a bowler, etc.) in this way; to misplay or mistime (a shot, stroke, etc.).
<!--end_def--><!--start_q--><!--start_qt--><!--end_qt--><!--end_q--><!--start_q--><!--open_smallcaps--><!--close_smallcaps--><!--start_qt--><!--end_qt--><!--end_q--><!--start_q--><!--start_qt--><!--end_qt--><!--end_q--><!--start_q--><!--start_qt--><!--end_qt--><!--end_q--><!--start_q--><!--start_qt-->


And, under "special uses" definition of "near":

"In the sense ‘situated nearby’, ‘within close proximity’"... near miss<!--end_bl--><!--end_lemma-->, (a) a shot that only just misses a target; also in extended use; (b) a situation in which a collision is narrowly avoided.
<!--start_def-->

[Gingermick]

It should have stopped with Samuel Johnson:

He must have written that while he was having his pendigestatory interludicule

[silentC]

I might have known. Just another example of journalists inventing a word. Show me a citation from a proper literary source, like Shakespeare, and I'll accept it.

Herbert Coleridge would be horrified! Sports commentators defining the language. What next?

[chrisp]

Herbert Coleridge would be horrified! Sports commentators defining the language. What next?

My thoughts exactly! But I didn't want to say it - who knows who's on this board?:rolleyes:

[Barry Hicks]

I put me hand in me sky rocket and found a Lady Godiva so I went to the rubbity for a tumble down the sink and ended up Brahms and Listz.

Barry Hicks

[HappyHammer]

I put me hand in me sky rocket and found a Lady Godiva so I went to the rubbity for a tumble down the sink and ended up Brahms and Listz.

Barry Hicks
Nope none of those either....:U

HH.

[HappyHammer]

Herbert Coleridge would be horrified! Sports commentators defining the language. What next?
RANT ON Like winningest and I don't care how many dictionaries it's in it's not a word and should be struck from verbal use by American sports commentators with IQ's in the minuses...RANT OFF:U

HH.

[silentC]

And acclimate. What's wrong acclimatise? Bloody Americans :~

[craigb]

And acclimate. What's wrong acclimatise? Bloody Americans :~

burglarized is my pet hate. :((

[silentC]

A lot of people say burg-u-lar too. Where does the 'u' come from.

My son sometimes tells me he is hun-gar-y. I reply, what, the whole country? He doesn't get it. Five year olds! Tsk!

[HappyHammer]

My son sometimes tells me he is hun-gar-y. I reply, what, the whole country? He doesn't get it. Five year olds! Tsk!
:U :U :U

HH.

[AlexS]

"
When I took the first survey of my undertaking, I found our speech copious without order, and energetick without rules: wherever I turned my view, there was perplexity to be disentangled, and confusion to be regulated; choice was to be made out of boundless variety, without any established principle of selection; adulterations were to be detected, without a settled test of purity; and modes of expression to be rejected or received, without the suffrages of any writers of classical reputation or acknowledged authority. "

That's a beautiful piece of prose: it uses correct grammar, well-chosen words and unambiguous pronunciation.

[echnidna]

wotsit mean

[joe greiner]

Thanks for the quotation, silent. I'd heard that Dr. Johnson despaired of the language going to hell in a handbasket, but I didn't know the full expression.

I suspect the folks who say "burg-u-lar" also say "nuc-u-lar."

One of the stranger phenomena is a word with two opposite meanings. One that comes readily to mind is "citation." Can mean either a laudatory document or a traffic ticket. Similar with "sanction:" both approval and disapproval.

Joe

[Iain]

And to confuse the migrants, just a few:
Trough
Plough
Rough
Dough
Plenty more I'm sure

[Gingermick]

That's a beautiful piece of prose: .


Like attaching wheels to a tomato, time consuming and utterly pointless


I'm anispeptic, frazmotic even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulations.

Thanks silent for reminding me of that episode, I put it on last night for the first time in a while, after the Broncos got drubbed again, which usually makes me happy, but I tipped em after last weeks thrashing of Newcastle.

[Gingermick]

Bloody Americans :~

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=18139&highlight=revocation

For those who missed, either nearly or otherwise, this gem.

[Iain]

"nuc-u-lar."


I've (I have:D ) heard George Dubbya (George Double 'U') use that one in his addresses (Homilies) to the world (the other 2.???%).

[AlexS]

One of the stranger phenomena is a word with two opposite meanings. One that comes readily to mind is "citation." Can mean either a laudatory document or a traffic ticket. Similar with "sanction:" both approval and disapproval.

Joe
How about cleave? It can mean either stick together or split apart.

[joe greiner]

How about cleave? It can mean either stick together or split apart.

That's the other one I was trying to remember.:- Probably lots more.

Joe