breakfast rebate

[SPIRIT]

if l may ,,it all started when l did my anything l should know with the kids this mornings (as they know l will tickle to get the information :) )find out the boy 11yo is in the mathematical olympiads so there a bit fuss made blu blu .This is a big contest schools put in teams and they are tring to get a good score ,its like a footy team thing ,kid want to make the team and our shows that don"t give up on the public system our school ranks up there with the bigger schools

debate starts now
question 1-D
A rectangle has a perimeter of 90cm .the length of the rectangle is 25 cm
more than the width

find the of sq cm in the area of the rectangle

you have 6 Minutes:roll:

[Gra]

20cm?

[SPIRIT]

is that your answer 20cm sq

[Burnsy]

10cm x 35cm gives an area of 350cm2

I will put it to my year 6/7 maths class this morning and see how long it takes.

[Gra]

20cm wide....

500sq cm (Not good at this calc)

[SPIRIT]

10cm x 35cm gives an area of 350cm2

I will put it to my year 6/7 maths class this morning and see how long it takes.
no im with Gra 500 sq
25 top 20 sides =500 sq
90=2x25+ (x+x)x=20

[Wongo]

What is happening here boys. :D

[Wongo]

The number of prime numbers is infinite. Prove it :D

Don't take me seriously. :D

[SPIRIT]

What is happening here boys. :Dcome on wongo you are smart man you tell them that l am right

[Wongo]

10cm X 35cm = 350 cm^2

[Chesand]

I am with burnsy - area is 350 sq cm

Calculation is Length = width + 25
2W + 2 W + 50 = 90 (perimeter)
4W = 40
W = 10
L = 10 + 25 = 35
Area is L x W = 10 x 35 = 350

Here endeth the maths lesson

[Wongo]

Don’t bother guys. These things are always won by the Chinese. :D

[Gra]

Where did 10 x 35 come from....????

The question was perimiter = 90cm
and the length was 25cm....


from this two lenths of 25cm's = 50 cm
Perimiter - two lengths = twice width
90 - 50cm = 40cm
so width = 40cm/2

So rectangle = 20cm X 25cm...

Length x Width = Area
20cm X 25cm = 500Sq cm

[Burnsy]

no im with Gra 500 sq
25 top 20 sides =500 sq
90=2x25+ (x+x)x=20


Where did 10 x 35 come from....????

The question was perimiter = 90cm
and the length was 25cm....


from this two lenths of 25cm's = 50 cm
Perimiter - two lengths = twice width
90 - 50cm = 40cm
so width = 40cm/2

So rectangle = 20cm X 25cm...

Length x Width = Area
20cm X 25cm = 500Sq cm

You have both done what most 11 and 12 year olds do - not read the question:wink:

Length is 25cm MORE than the o

[SPIRIT]

no 90-50 =40 and you make rectangle once you cut it in half to back e/lenths l have made rectangle yes we know the question says the length is 25 so that 50 ok your left with 40 half that 20 20 x 25 =500

[Wongo]

and the length was 25cm....



the length of the rectangle is 25 cm
more than the width


Gra, read the question son. :D

[Gra]

:doh:

[SPIRIT]

You have done what most 11 and 12 year olds do - not read the question:wink:

Length is 25cm MORE than the othe question just says it more than the sides 25 is more than 20 when l larst checked

[silentC]

2*25=50
90-50=40

So you have a square with perimeter of 40, 10cm to a side. So the rectangle is 10 x 35 which is 350 sq. cm.

35 + 35 + 10 + 10 = 90

[Chesand]

Thanks Silent
You have probably explained better than I did - go to top of class

[Gra]

25 + 25 + 20 + 20 = 90.....

25 is more than 20...

It all depends on your inflection...

Never was any good at maths, thats why I work for a bank

[silentC]

It says "the length is 25cm more than the width" not "the length is 25cm, more than the width". And as it's a rectangle, it's patently obvious that the length is longer than the width. :rolleyes:

[Wongo]

Lets try again.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=46216&stc=1&d=1179277905

[SPIRIT]

yes see the answer is 500sq cm ok

[Chesand]

Exactly - as Silent says and as Wongo has drawn (my calculations in drawing form)

[Wongo]

25 + 25 + 20 + 20 = 90.....

25 is more than 20...

It all depends on your inflection...

Never was any good at maths, thats why I work for a bank

So it could be anything then.

what about 44 + 44 + 1 + 1 = 90......

44 is more than 1...

But I like you Gra. :D

[Gra]

Rectangle
----
| |
----

also rectangle.....
----
| |
| |
| |
| |
----

[SPIRIT]

It says "the length is 25cm more than the width" not "the length is 25cm, more than the width". And as it's a rectangle, it's patently obvious that the length is longer than the width. :rolleyes:this would be so but they said more on a new line l gave a #more than the length 25 is more than 20

[Gingermick]

You have both done what most 11 and 12 year olds do - not read the question:wink:

Length is 25cm MORE than the o

Yes but when you place modifiers on a different line to the original question you stuff the more athletically minded up :p

[johnc]

I'm with Silent, Wongo and all the other 350sqcm'ers.

90 = 4x + 50
90-50= 4x
40/4 = x
x = 10

Easy, short sides = x or 10, long sides = x+25 or 35

Sorry Gra think you've had two many magic mushrooms or something this morning.

Cheers, John

[Wongo]

yes see the answer is 500sq cm ok

That is totally crap. Based on the question the answer is wrong. It has happened so many times. Remember this, the answers at the back of the maths book aren’t necessary correct.

[SPIRIT]

if the question isn't clear ex:more on a new line could be seen as a ,

[silentC]

I think there would be one of two outcomes from this in an exam. Either any answer other than 350 sq. cm would be marked incorrect, or there would be complaints and the question would be withdrawn.

But if you read
line breaks as commas it
must make it hard for
you to read newspapers.

[SPIRIT]

So 500 sq cm is a correct answer .

[silentC]

Nope. It's wrong, but you might get full marks for it if there were enough complaints about the line break. Students complain about things like that thinking they will improve their score, but all it does is cancels the question because everyone gets full marks. So instead of being out of 100, it's now out of 99.

It used to annoy me when that happened because I reckon ability to read the question and apply logic to it is part of the test. Unless I was one of the ones who couldn't make sense of it :o

[SPIRIT]

Well thats how the morning debate ended ....he has to get out school soon! now
you have played my home well ,l played my son ,,,,THANKYOU AND GOODAY TO YOU ALL

[Wongo]

I have done a lot of maths in my time (more than enough) and have taught many high school students.

This is a question for a yr 11 student. So this is what they are after,

Let Width = x
Then Length = x + 25
=> 2 x + 2(x+25) = 90
=> x = 10, width = 10cm and length=35
=> area = 10 cm * 35 cm = 350 cm square.


Spirit, 500 is not the correct answer.

[Wongo]

It is a simple question for a little kid for goodness’ sake. :doh: Let's not getting too technical.

Spirit, don’t be afraid to tell your son that the answer is wrong. Don’t always trust the answers. Don’t be afraid to challenge your teacher.

That is how we learn isn’t it?:2tsup:

[SPIRIT]

when he did his stroll to get in the car ,he had that face stuff em on,they should write the question better then
this is thier heading Vocabulary and Launguage young "Mathlets"

[SPIRIT]

It is a simple question for a little kid for goodness’ sake. :doh: Let's not getting too technical.

Spirit, don’t be afraid to tell your son that the answer is wrong. Don’t always trust the answers. Don’t be afraid to challenge your teacher.

That is how we learn isn’t it?:2tsup:l don't think l can tell him his wrong as silentC he has a case
but l will tell him if he wants to butt heads with the system its a hard road

[silentC]

if he wants to butt heads with the system its a hard road
And he will lose. The system wont stand for people inserting non-existent punctuation into things to make them fit their own interpretation :wink:

So how does he go reading comics?

[SPIRIT]

It is a simple question for a little kid for goodness’ sake. :doh: Let's not getting too technical.

. Don’t be afraid to challenge your teacher.

That is how we learn isn’t it?:2tsup:he said that she said that 500 sqcm is correct ,l don't think she read it as well :~

[silentC]

And I've finally worked out what the title has to do with this thread. Breakfast Debate, right?

[silentC]

she said that 500 sqcm is correct
You need to think about changing schools then...

[SPIRIT]

And he will lose. The system wont stand for people inserting non-existent punctuation into things to make them fit their own interpretation :wink:

So how does he go reading comics?yep we leave all the interpretion up to them as they see fit

[SPIRIT]

no l must say he is at the best school.maybe a teacher working hard then asked (told)to run the mathlets and they train for it a few times a week

[rat52]

Just apply the golden rule.

"He who has the gold makes the rules"

[chrisb691]

if l may ,,it all started when l did my anything l should know with the kids this mornings (as they know l will tickle to get the information :) )find out the boy 11yo is in the mathematical olympiads so there a bit fuss made blu blu .This is a big contest schools put in teams and they are tring to get a good score ,its like a footy team thing ,kid want to make the team and our shows that don"t give up on the public system our school ranks up there with the bigger schools

debate starts now
question 1-D
A rectangle has a perimeter of 90cm .the length of the rectangle is 25 cm
more than the width

find the of sq cm in the area of the rectangle

you have 6 Minutes:roll:

2L + 2W = 90 and L = 25
2W = 90 - 50
W = 20

Area = L X W = 500cm2

[SPIRIT]

Just apply the golden rule.

"He who has the gold makes the rules"
now wisdom thats what we need at our schools work hard climb up off that bench and get of the field and be a player

[silentC]

L (are you listening?) doesn't (have you got this?) equal (ready?) 25cm

L is 25cm more than W. Therefore L > 25cm.

No wonder the country is going down the gurgler :rolleyes:

I bet they put that line break in there to sort out the ones who can read more than one line at a time from the ones who can't.

[SPIRIT]

now l must know how long did it take to work out the first question

[SPIRIT]

now you must say this a better debate than clean your room rebate for the morning:U

[Chesand]

Ability to read and understand the question is just as important as getting the answer.
If you can show that you understand the question, show the calculation steps clearly but get the wrong answer you should still get some marks in an exam, at least that was the way I was taught 50 odd years ago.
If each person is allowed to put their own slant on a question the system fails.
Imagine the final result if engineers each interpreted calculations for a bridge in their own way.
There has to be a standard.

[silentC]

I still want to know how they read newspapers if they mentally insert a comma at every line break!

[Gingermick]

Imagine the final result if engineers each interpreted calculations for a bridge in their own way

Thats why we try to keep everything we do looking the same as everything else we've done. We try to
make our plans clear and easily readable. :p
However I am often faulted for only reading the first paragraph of a standard and applyi
ng it; only to have
it come back from

review with 'But this only applies to rural roads' or something. :p

And newspapers justify all their text to fit the line, they dont leave three quarters of the line empty before continuing the sentence on the next line.

[Wongo]

Do you know how often they find mistakes in high school exams and uni exams? It is not uncommon. Student always end up getting full mark for the question.

Have I ever proven my 4 unit maths teacher wrong? Yes, a number of times. Have I ever been wrong? Yes, many many times.:D So it is all about if you have the conviction to stand up and question it.

If the argument here is about the interpretation of the question then this simple maths question has become a “trick question”. And we all know that trick questions are not for smart people. They are for smartarses.

[silentC]

And newspapers justify all their text to fit the line, they dont leave three quarters of the line empty before continuing the sentence on the next line.
We don't have the original exam paper in front of us to be able to say whether they did that or not. The point is, it is ludicrous to suggest that a carriage return implies a comma in the absence of a full stop. And you know it.

[Wongo]

A rectangle has a perimeter of 90cm .the length of the rectangle is 25 cm
more than the width


OK someone please tell me. What the hell is "more than the width" for then?

And how come there is a space between 90cm and . but none before the t

How come it is "the length" not "The length"

:((

[silentC]

According to these knuckleheads, it means that the length of the rectangle is 25cm, which is more than the width.

[Burnsy]

now l must know how long did it take to work out the first question
Less than a minute but longer than it should have:rolleyes:

Take your answer of 350 to the teacher and see what she says. A good teacher is quite happy to admit they are wrong to their students, it shows that everyone is human and makes mistakes, teaches kids more than being right all the time. My students expect me to make mistakes, especially in spelling and they are happy with it that way.

Maths is next period, I will write it up on the board exactly as it is here with the line break and see how long to get the correct (350) answer. Also will see how many come up with the wrong interpretation.

[Wongo]

According to these knuckleheads, it means that the length of the rectangle is 25cm, which is more than the width.

Really, so 25cm is more then 20cm then. :o

Sounds like a year 7 question to me.

[silentC]

I'm just glad they're not building my house :U

[MurrayD99]

350. 35 x 10.

[Gra]

They are for smartarses.

Well they have come to the right place havent they :D :D :U :q


Is it friday yet

[SPIRIT]

Less than a minute but longer than it should have:rolleyes:

Take your answer of 350 to the teacher and see what she says. A good teacher is quite happy to admit they are wrong to their students, it shows that everyone is human and makes mistakes, teaches kids more than being right all the time. My students expect me to make mistakes, especially in spelling and they are happy with it that way.

Maths is next period, I will write it up on the board exactly as it is here with the line break and see how long to get the correct (350) answer. Also will see how many come up with the wrong interpretation.love to see the out came

[Gingermick]

And you know it.

When one finds oneself in error one tendeth to pulleth ones excusesth out of onesth areseholeth.

[Wongo]

love to see the out came


What do you expect to see mate. I mean it is so black and white.

[Wongo]

When one finds oneself in error one tendeth to pulleth ones excusesth out of onesth areseholeth.


Does it mean something if I read it backward? :D

[SPIRIT]

and theres more to the debate at one point he says you have rectangle ok 25cm x20 cm ok and we move 10 cm from the width and ad it the length and the perimeter doesn't changes but the area does as he bang his hand down to make point .Well that did put me back a bit as l was thinking he worked his point to the rest of the house and l could see them starting swing his way again .but l came home stong and got them back :U

when you read the question on the sheet there is a few gaps that are not needed:?did they do this just to see
28000 student competed in 2006 Australia,New Zealand,Singapore and neighouring countries (thier only neghouring countries thats all they get:no: ),,,,,,,,,,,,there colecting stats for something

[SPIRIT]

What do you expect to see mate. I mean it is so black and white.how many kids in 30 will answer 350

[Wongo]

But would it change your view?

If you don’t believe us (mostly University educated) then why would believe a bunch of kids.

Wongo (who scored 100% in his HSC maths exam:- )

[Gra]

Ok so I cant do math.... at least I can do excel (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=511838#post511838)...

[SPIRIT]

no it wouldn't the answer is clearly 350 but say a 11yo debated system would they take a look at him l bet they would so thier fishing with these tests Now my son is not in the top of his school there is this kid that is just out there:o thick as but a nice kid but maths :2tsup: l don't like this much but they tell you where your at in % ,,top 20% its hard not to proud of the punk

kids, more you understand them more advice you can give them :)

[SPIRIT]

Wongo (who scored 100% in his HSC maths exam:- )man you are old its called VCE now

[Gingermick]

(who scored 100% in his HSC maths exam:- )

My final high school maths 2 (maths C now i think) exam was more focused on integral calculus than oddly formatted algebra.

[Gumby]

I can't believe you guys are even debating this.

350 it is.
full stop. period. finito. end of story. :cool:

(took me a minute but I only got 97%, so Wongo is better at maths than me :D )

[SPIRIT]

Now Gumby lets not bring the debate to are you always write:B and haveing the last say in the matter

[Gingermick]

We're not debating the answer. but the question gumbo :D :D :D

[SPIRIT]

as my 11yo will take up the battle when he get home

[Wongo]

My final high school maths 2 (maths C now i think) exam was more focused on integral calculus than oddly formatted algebra.

Yeah but no but. It doesn't mean you don't need to know you algebra well.:D

[Gumby]

Now Gumby lets not bring the debate to are you always write:B and haveing the last say in the matter

Why not? It's a fitting conclusion. :wink:

[SPIRIT]

sorry gumby my theard you cant have the last word
got to go and pick the chilins up:2tsup:

[Wood Borer]

Wongo I agree with you that the answer is 350.:2tsup:

You must read the question carefully. Perhaps the question is a bit difficult for all but the top students aged 11 however this is a maths competition. It is designed for the top competitors.

Students who are more into reading poetry or playing sport might all agree on the wrong answer big deal, they are still wrong. They can come up with all the excuses and all agree these excuses are valid but they are still wrong.

Didn’t everyone except Copernicus think the earth was flat once upon a time?

If you took a survey today, people would say the earth was almost spherical. Could the majority from either era prove their answers? I suggest not.

I suggest that the world might be a better place if ignorant people butted out of things they clearly don’t understand and or are incapable of understanding. If they want to participate in those decisions or activities then take steps to understand the matter at hand rather than criticise those who do understand the topic.

I guess I shouldn’t have drawn politics into this.:B

[Chesand]

I'm just glad they're not building my house :U

So am I

[Chesand]

man you are old its called VCE now
When I did it it was called Matric and I don't remember my mark.

[Burnsy]

I work in a low demographic school so we are not always up there when it comes to academics but here is what happened. 26 kids (top maths group in the 6/7 classes) 5 kids had the right dimentions within 4 minutes, only one managed to convert this to an area within the 6 minute time frame. Another four had it by ten minutes with a few more having the right dimentions by this time. That is where we stopped to discuss the process. Turns out three had got the 500 square cm answer, not because they misinterpreted the english to mean the length of the rectangle is longer than the width but because they got to "The length of the rectangle is 25 cm" and though too easy, I can do this and went off to solve the problem.

It is also interesting that the 5 kids that got the correct length and width within 4 minutes also thought they had finished as they had not continued reading on to actually find out what the question was, they just assumed they needed to find the length and width.

Note that none in the class read "the length of the rectangle is 25cm more than the width" as being "the length of the rectangle is 25cm which is longer than the width".

Kids loved doing it though:2tsup:

[rat52]

I once had to do a aptitude test in applying for a job and the interviewer gave me a sheet of 60 y/n questions to complete in 60 seconds with the instructions to not worry and just do the best I could.

Being of a perverse and backward nature I started over the page at No 60 which read "Put your name at the top of the page and ignore the rest of the questions".

I don't know what it proved but the interviewer said I was the only person he had ever had get it right.:rolleyes:

[silentC]

Excellent!

So what's the next class? Let's see if we can cook up another experiment in child psychology :U

[Gingermick]

I suggest that the world might be a better place if ignorant people butted out of things they clearly don’t understand and or are incapable of understanding. If they want to participate in those decisions or activities then take steps to understand the matter at hand rather than criticise those who do understand the topic.

Your not a diplomat are you?:D



The length of the rectangle is 25 cm" and though too easy

I too read the length is 25 and thought, easy the answers 500. I'd lost many a mark at uni for not reading the question fully.
But blitzed my high school maths (like wongo) because we had to solve alpha-numeric equations and not read questions. Thats one of the reasons i still have communication problems.

[Wongo]

That is the “trick questions” I was talking about. I proves nothing whatsoever.

rat52, well done to you though.:cool:

[Wongo]

Thats one of the reasons i still have communication problems.

Now you are speaking like a woman. :D

[Gra]

If you took a survey today, people would say the earth was almost spherical.

WB Check here (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :q

Hay I first to admit I am !@#$ at math...we are just having fun now..:D :D I wouldnt dare go against Wongo on a math problem, I would lose every time

[Gingermick]

It proves that I have a problem.

[Wongo]

Mick, the maths I did in uni have more numbers and symbols and less words. :oo:

[Gingermick]

The maths I did at uni did too :)

[Wood Borer]

WB Check here (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) :q

Hay I first to admit I am !@#$ at math...we are just having fun now..:D :D I wouldnt dare go against Wongo on a math problem, I would lose every time

Gra,

Did I lead you to believe that I consider the earth is almost spherical?

Now it's a matter of not only reading the question but reading the comments:q

I know we are having a bit of fun now but my swipe at those making decisions - I was serious.

No Gingermick I am not a diplomat - did it sound out of touch with reality?:o

[SPIRIT]

well done everybody but you all missed the point of the thread it was the debate skills that was on around the breaky table
see we all most had the same debate here and didn't it keep you all going
Gra you played my wife realy well in the renactment:D
gingermick you played my teenage girl
wongo, silentCand others played me to a T

now the girl has a maths problem she wishes a hand with may l :U

[Gra]

Gra,

Did I lead you to believe that I consider the earth is almost spherical?


No, but I didn't make any presumptions there, all I did was point to a group that disagreed with your statement (I also didn't put my point into the response either) :q:U

Spirit, I hope you wife is much better looking though..:U:U

[SPIRIT]

Give us a kiss and l will see

[AlexS]

And for those of you who wish to combine poetry with your maths.....
A mathemetician named Hall
Had a dodecahedronal ball.
The cube of its weight
Plus his pecker times eight
Was 5/8 of 4/5 of his phone number - give him a call.