water savin tips needed

[cx3]

Hi :p i am new here. i have visited this forum for sometime and i realise the people here are extremely helpful and friendly.

i have been thinking of how to cut down the water usage in my house and really need ya advice.

eg. is there any possible way i can channel the washout from my washing machine to the cistern tank?

thankew!

[Sir Stinkalot]

I wrote a thesis on this subject last year .... I plan to put a web site up shortly that will display my findings.

With the washing machine be very careful that you aren't asking the washing machine pump to do more than it was designed for otherwise you will burn it out and it will cost $$$$'s. I really don't want to get started on this subject as I can talk like there is no tomorrow (its my own little cyclone). I would suggest a book called .... "Not just down the drain" by Stuart McQuire and/or "Water efficient Garden" by Wendy Van Dok. Both are very good reads and a must for grey water reuse. Or you could wait until I have my page up and running.

Stinky.

[zymurgy]

A simple little ditty for Toilet water useage:

If it's yellow, let it mellow.
If it's brown, flush it down.

Gordon.

[journeyman Mick]

You could, using a holding tank and an on demand pressure pump. However if you are going to the trouble and expense of a tank and pump it may be better to use the grey water in your garden (very low cost) and using a larger tank to catch water off your roof for domestic supply. I live in an area that isn't supplied with town water (thankfully as it just means higher rates and the supply of an almost unpotable liquid). I use the washing machine water in the garden (the average top loader uses about 120 L a load!) and we have a 26KL tank that catches water off our 180M2 roof. With our reasonably economical use I've estimated that this is enough for at least three months. You haven't said where you are so I don't know whether this is an option due to very lowrainfall or industrial fallout.

Mick

[Sir Stinkalot]

The stroage of grey water is a no no for any length of time over 24 hours. The microbial growth is amazing increasing the risk of contamination. If you do water your garden (we dont bother) it is better to put the washing machine water directly onto the garden where it will be absorbed and reduce the risks. I would agree with Mick that rain water is better for the toilet. We divert our shower water directly onto the lawn with excellent results. I plan to upgrade the system with the garden makeover and incorporate a sub soil distribution system. If you plan to use the washing machine water on the garden be careful with your choice of detergent ... it can build up in the soil over time and kill your plants ....... oh no I have started now and will find it hard to stop .... contain yourself Stinky...

[soundman]

all the gray water from our house goes to a tank & is pumped to a sprinkler that we moove regularly.
A submersable pump with a float swith. all automatic easy.

just have to keep the sprinkler head clear.

our shire only permits this on acreage.

[journeyman Mick]

Hey Stinky, you're probably all read up on it, but there's low density poly pipe available with tiny holes in it, used for sub-soil irrigation. New regulations just out (round here anyway) stipulate it must be coloured blue for waste water, probably applies to grey water as well. Tertiary treatment sewage systems are replacing septic systems in a lot of new installations around here (depends on your soil absorbtion & distances from watercourses etc etc) and until recently they all had pop up sprinklers to get rid of the water. Now, however they must have 200M2 of sub-soil irrigation. It's all good for water conservation and reducing pollution and disease but it adds more costs onto new buildings (don't even get me started about the new energy efficiency rules!)

Mick

[ChrisH]

Personally I would start at the other end and try to cut down how much water you USE and then worry about saving grey water.
Eg. - Use a Front Loader washing machine (got to be yout first step, many use about 60 litres for the whole cycle, wash and four rinses, compared to 80 or 90 litres PER FILL on a top loader, that is a wash + one rinse = 160 to 180 litres for the whole cycle, and top loaders don't wash as well and use heaps more detergent...)
- fit a water efficient dunny. Older dual flush dunnies are 9l/4.5l, newer ones are 6l/3l.
- water efficient shower - some are awful but there are some good ones too and some of the cheaper ones are great. Mine cost about $25 from that crowd who flog them in shopping centres, it has a great shower from fairly low water pressure and has never played up, it's now over 10 years old...
- you can get a water diverter to put under your laundry sink from Bunnings, so the washing machine pumps out just the same but if you flick the lever under the sink, the water goes down the hose onto your garden. You must use a good size hose (say 1") and put the washing machine hose into the sink not the bypass outlet, so that if the garden hose runs a bit slow the water can back up into the sink without flooding.
- Re detergent, I used pure soap for a while thinking it was better on the garden, but the vege patch soil seemed to clog up. When I changed to a gentle detergent the soil improved markedly. The detergent I use now is Milton InfaCare concentrate, I use only about 2 teaspoons in a front loader, it doesn't make me itch like many others do. It comes in a plastic tub like NapiSan. It used to be sold in supermarkets for over $7 a tub, now it's only in GO-LO where it only costs $2.50!

Chris.

[journeyman Mick]

Chris, you're right there, most people are unaware of how much water they use. I've only become more water conscious (and pretty miserly:) ) since buying a place without town water. We had the driest weather ever on record last year (the rainforest on the range pretty much died) and right in the middle of it our bore pump died! I'm looking at replacing our top loader with a front loader when finances permit, but I'm trying to find one that will run off a generator as extended power outages are the norm here. I've bought a new 6/3 toilet but it's still waiting to be fitted. I've fitted a watersaver shower head and I've made even larger water savings by only drinking beer.:D

Mick

[q9]

Another thing to add to your list of water saving devices is, believe it or not, a dishwasher. We have done experiments where we put the outlet hose into a sink with the plug in. It filled the sink, right up to the edges on each side. That isn't a real lot of water especially considering it gets the dishes cleaner than hand washing. Some of the new machines, such as Mieles', actually monitor the particulate concentration in the water and alter the length of the wash cycle accordingly. Some washing machines do the same thing. Of course, this is expensive technology.

As mentioned, front loading washing machines use much less water than top loaders, and are gentler on your clothes.

One thing to remember, apart from being germy, water from the washing machine is also caustic and corrosive. Use with caution.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Mick,

There is a product called "leeky hose" or something like that which is made in Richmond Melbourne that is manufactured out of old tires. The product is porus but doesn't contain holes and thus doesn't clog with the grey water. Subsurface irrigation is recommended as the grey water doesn't pool on the surface where childeren and animals can come into contact with it. Sprinklers really arent a great option as they can block if there isn't adequate prefiltering and they also introduce aerosol droplets that can travel and be enhailed but not only the user but also the neighbours. The dishwasher is a great idea ... we only have two of us in the house and we would run a full load every 3-4 days at around 19L per load. If we were to fill a sink every morning and night we would be using much more water than this ... and we would have to do the dishes. Do not however use any kitchen waste water again .... let it go to be treated at the farm.
I will post a link to the web site when I work out how to make one .... the web site that is not the link. :)

Remember ..... Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

Stinky

[Pulpo]

Water saving

I too would think about the amount of water one uses before trying to recycle greywater, when thinking of water saving.

I am just about to build a composting toilet for my weakender.

They are standard now I believe in national parks.

I was tempted not to hook up hot water to the shower, now that would save some water, but it gets down to -8 at night, and me thinks many including myself may skip shower, so hotwater will have to flow.

The more one is aware of our water resource the better.

Good Luck

Pulpo

[Iain]

Oh Dear Pulpo, a composting toilet for your WEAK ENDER.
Couldn't let that one go, is that the tube on the south side of the bladder in need of Viagra :D
Surprised Stoppers missed it!

[cx3]

thanks so much for all the helpful tips.

Well, Stinky, i am sure that i look forward to ur new web site. do post the link once it is up.

currently, i have the washing machine hose outlet to a big pail as storage. so far the water did not store over 2 days before used up. no stink, the water didn't turn turbid (signs of microbial growth), still smell fragrant. it is only used with a bailer to flush the toilet and to wash the kitchen floor. a bit of physical work here.

the idea to use a low volume water shower head is an excellent idea. i am using it and despite cutting down the amount of water used, i did not experience the drop in water pressure. Thanks man!!

C:D

[ChrisH]

Journeyman Mick,

Drop me a line when you are thinking about getting that front loader. I repair washing machines in my spare time (not that I have had any lately...) and collect a few vintage automatic washers. I also live on solar power with genny backup so I may be able to steer you towards models that get on with generators. It can be a hassle with front loaders, most of them, particularly the better ones, tend to have electronic speed controllers that are very fussy about their supply. I have worked on machines that do not work at all on the genny, they just fill up and sit there. Others work very weakly, not really tumbling just twitching the drum. One with a computer controlled timer would drop out and reset each time it went to tumble - so it never progressed past the first step.
You can get around this on some machines with a well regulated genny and a quality power filter (a true filter not just a surge buster). There are several different motor/speed controller technologies, some are fine. Gennies are not as bad as inverters, too. I have a top quality expensive brand inverter for my solar power system, with inbuilt power filters and advertised "cleaner than the mains" power but I have had a GE and a Bendix machine that didn't work on it. However my current Asko washing machine works perfectly on it, but many other models of Asko don't. One particular model of Asko, no longer made, is notorious.


Chris.

[John G]

The problem with grey water in the garden is the potassium in the detergent will lock the minerals in the soil and eventually the plants will die off. (so I've been told).
But supposedly there is a product you can add to the grey water to condition the water. Something like a capful per bucket. I saw it on one of those home shows once.

Anyone have any idea what this grey water conditioner is?

[soundman]

as far as washing machines go.
Most of the modern machines run some form of plc controll with a variable frequency drive. which makes them a lot more efficient and very much cheaper to make but may be a bity fussy about the quality of the power unless they are very well designed.

stear clear of uld hoover twin tubs as the power factor and peak currents are wild.

I tried to run my neibours twin tub of my jenny ages ago & it wouldn't play but my old GE top loader worked fine with a 500watt QI lamp for balast. of a 2kvamachine.

we've just gone form a front loader to a F&P top loader & the water consumption is about the same with the machine full but better with a small load.

If you are on acreage recycling grey water is reasonably easy. If you are not on town plumbing you gata do something with it any way.

A sullage tank pump & sprinkler is cheaper and easier to maintain than a trench system. we abandond our sullage trenches a few years ago.

[soundman]

as for chemicals from sullage.

most detergents contain phosphates whic are also common fertilisers (that have side effects)

as long as you spread you water arround you shouldn't have too many problems.

also it is wise to water with clean water if you have it from time to time.

organic firtilisers should help keep the soil microbialy health enough to cope with a little washing water.

if you tank is big enough the washing, diswasher ect should be diluted by the shower & basins. .....

no dead plants here.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Originally posted by ChrisH
However my current Asko washing machine works perfectly on it, but many other models of Asko don't. One particular model of Asko, no longer made, is notorious.
Chris.

Which models of Asko do you recommend on a pv/wind system? We are currently designing a house to be put on an island with no power, we have had a consultant size the power system but I have to specify the washer. I have selected the top of the range Asko front loader (its not my money :)) but the client would like to go for entry level as she feels it would be easier for guests to use. Your comments on which machine would be very useful for me. Unfortunately I do not have any details on the inverter or regulator at hand but I can provide them on Monday if needed.

Thanks

Stinky.

[journeyman Mick]

Just wondering where the microbial growth in the grey water comes from? I can understand it if the grey water comes from the shower - dead skin cells and bacteria etc, but if you've only got water laced with detergents coming out of your washing how does the microbial growth start?

Mick

[Sir Stinkalot]

Originally posted by journeyman Mick
Just wondering where the microbial growth in the grey water comes from? I can understand it if the grey water comes from the shower - dead skin cells and bacteria etc, but if you've only got water laced with detergents coming out of your washing how does the microbial growth start?

Mick

Not trying to be crude but ..... flatulence smells as there are minute particles of .... these get filtered like a cyclone into underpants. I think you get the drift. There is also problems with washing nappies. Dead skin cells remain on clothes as well as dirt, blood, dust etc.

[journeyman Mick]

Ok, that makes sense. No kids, so the nappies thing wasn't thought of. Didn't really think about skin cells on clothing, my work clothes are usually choked with sawdust and cement dust, so that's primarily what I was thinking about going down the drain. And flatulence? - mine smells like roses mate!

Mick

[soundman]

most modern detergents also have ensimes in them which could be considered microbes.

[ChrisH]

Hi Stinky.

Now about Asko...
I'd suggest you contact the manufacturers of the INVERTER you plan to use for suggestions on which washing machines work best with their inverters.
I wrote 5000 words of detail on brands, models etc but I forgot there is a 1000 word limit on this site! So it is deleted. Sob!

BASICALLY... my Asko machine is about 10 years old and the efficient motor used in it is no longer used, so I would not recommend any of today's Askos for solar power use. I believe they all now use similar motor technology to the "problem" model of the past.

Fisher and Paykel top loaders have a reputation for working really well on inverters (MUST be sine wave inverters or the washing machine will be seriously damaged) and use bugger all power. Way lower than most. They are reliable and clever machines, but do use more water than front loaders.
I am happy to talk to you over the phone if you like, just email me your phone number.
Chris.

[John G]

- enzimes are not microbes! Not even close. They are just another type of chemical.
- grey water contains phosphates (not potassium), over-use of which can damage soils and plants. There is a way to condition grey-water but I don't know how.

[schaf]

Hi Cx3,

What a interesting thread you have started.

Have read it all the replies and l have learnt some,thank you.

I have one more question to throw into the pot.
Has anyone any advise or a method of turning brackish water into
drinking water( I think it is called potable water).

Regards Schaf.

[Iain]

Paddy Palin and similar places have a filter for turning salt/polluted water into drinking water.
They work under pressure (don't we all!) and are very slow.
This is for walkers etc, and I imagine there is a domestic/commercial unit available.

[Jeff]

so ya wanna learn how to save water huh? Well, it all starts with knowing how much you are using. I lived six years on a boat, and I can tell you, nothing teaches you water conservation like packing water. I've lived in a high desert in a hundred year drought. I know a little about conserving water, from experience. So here's the closest thing to that you may be able to duplicate: Put a tap on your source, and start filling up jugs or buckets or whatever you want, and use those to fill up your washer or tub or sink. Next, start watching where that water goes after you're done with it. Is it still usable? Many clothes washers have a "water saver" where the second wash/rinse water can be recaptured for the first wash of the next load. Front loads are really very good. Ever use a wringer washer? You may learn a few things there too. You will learn it's a matter of time vs. water savings in a lot of cases, but not always..... Do you have a stream, or consistent wind power, or solar power? A lot of the washing mechanism can be done on a slower, smoother basis with better results, utilizing nature's free power. Combine new technology with simple and proven older methods. Learn how soaps and detergents work (different princples) and make the best of knowledge. There are countless gadgets and "systems" out there, and most of them are . Stay simple, use your brains, and watch every drop. Bottom line is, use each drop as many times as you can, so plan, plan, plan.

[Johnno]

A while back, Sir Stinkalot offered to post a URL for Leeaky Hose. I've also been researching this product, and here's the URL: <http:\\www.leeaky.com.au>

It seems to be a good product and is backed by CSIRO research. The only drawback I've found so far is the need to use a pressure reducer as our Canberra mains run at a higher pressure than recommended.

Given the impending level 3 and above restrictions here I will be removing my inground sprinklers and hanging some leeakyhose on the end of the existing buried watering system. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Johnno2

[Johnno]

Something went wrong there; the URL is

<http:// www.leeaky.com.au>


Johnno2

[Sir Stinkalot]

Sorry Johnno but I was going to post a link to my site when I had finished it not the Leeaky hose :) . Its good to see that you provided a link anyway. I will be interested to hear how you get on with it. We are planning to put it into our new garden beds when we finally get around to doing them. I like the idea of being able to burry the pipe as it is much cleaner and will do a better job.
http://www.my-smileys.de/furz.gif

[cx3]

Hi Schaf,

i have been to Philippines and i found out that they too recycled their water (most likely sewage water) into potable one by reverse osmosis (RO) technique. the equipment really cost a bomb out of you. There are countries using such tech to generate very pure water from the sea too. anyway, you cant drink RO water straight (will kill you via 'demineralizing your body') you have to add sodium and leave it in the open for stabilizing (with water weeds will speed up the process).

here in Singapore, the Govt started using this method to recycle household water and threw the RO water into the reservoir.

who know, a time will come when such an equipmt will be as common as cell phone in every house... in the future perhaps... :confused:

C

[namtrak]

A simple little ditty for Toilet water useage:

If it's yellow, let it mellow.
If it's brown, flush it down.

AND

If it's clear, too much beer
If it's red, soon to be dead.