Big Electricity Bill

[silentC]

Just looking at our bill, I notice that out daily average has nearly doubled from what we were using at our last house.

The main differences are that we use pumps for water and we have an on site sewerage system, which uses three pumps. I can't for the life of me see how this could nearly double the bill, so although that's a contributing factor, I expect there is something else (and I haven't ruled out an error with the meter yet).

Any ideas on how I can work out where it's all going? It's easy enough to calculate lights and appliances etc., but then we are using the same appliances and our habits haven't really changed.

Does anyone know of a meter that you can put inline with something to see how much it is drawing over a period of time? That would be handy. Then I could monitor one of the pumps and see how much power it uses.

We have one of the new digital metres and it has 4 'virtual' meters. One is for off peak but the other three are charged at the standard rate. They tell me that they meter usage at different tariffs for people on a sliding scale. I asked Country Energy if it's possible for these meters to be incorrectly set up so that they meter incorrectly and she couldn't rule it out. Seems unlikely but you never know.

Our neighbours have a very similar setup to us and there bill is about 2/3 what ours is...

[Wood Butcher]

I have seen a meter that you can plug inline with appliances and it will tell you exactly what the power usage of that item is, either instantaneous or accumulated over a set time. Sorry but I have no idea where you would get one from or how much.

[Big Shed]

I could be wrong, but one of the electronics magazines did a project on this. I believe Jaycar and/or Dick Smith sell the kit. I records Kw/h over time.

On the subject of your septic system, our Septech uses 2 pumps, 1 for aeration and 1 for pump-out. The aeration cycle can be adjusted on the controller and was originally set to the default of 60% duty cycle. The service guy thought his was too high for a household of only 2 people and adjusted it down to 40%. We did notice a decrease in our usage after this. These are fairly beefy pumps and whether they run 15 hours/day or 9.5 hours makes a difference over time.

Your water pumps shouldn't really contribute all that much, unless you take very long showers and have the washing machine and dish washer going a lot.

[Cliff Rogers]

Some of the electrical wholesalers have test equipment that can be rented.
Try Haymans, Ideal, CNW for a start.

[Barry_White]

Hi Darren

I've given up trying to find out how the electric supply company is ripping me off.

Our quarterly bill is/was around $300.00

There is only two of us in the house.

We have Solar hot water heating and have a slow combustion wood stove that heats the water and does the cooking in the winter and never goes out and only boost the hot water occasionally with electricity when it is cloudy in the summer.

We also have a slow combustion wood heater to heat the house in the winter and no air conditioning. We use a small electric fan heater occasionally in the morning in the bedroom when we first get up until dressed.

We have a septic system so that doesn't use any electricity.

We have never turned any of our appliances off standby. We have three small water pumps that only come on when a tap is turned on but only one pump at a time. Two computers that are on for about 15 hours a day.

The TV is on most of the day as my wife channel surfs for all the cooking shows that are on. I haven't figured out why because we eat the same meals all the time. It must be a female gene that does it.

The only other electricity used is in the shed.

The only way that I reduced my electricity bill was when a rival electricity company rang me up to switch over.

I was paying 17 odd cents a unit to Country Energy and the rival company offered me 14 odd cents a unit so I rang Country Energy and told them about the offer and they offered to me for 12 odd cents.

I asked them why you have to ring them up to getter a better deal and their reply was we have over 900,000 customers and we haven't got time to do that but we advertise it on our web site.

Who goes to an electricity company's website?

I suppose their too busy ringing up all the opposition customers.

This has saved me about $50.00 a quarter on my electricity bill.

[silentC]

I might talk to the sparky and see if he can get hold of one. Though having one of my own would be handy for all sorts of things.

It just can't imagine how the water pumps and septic system could account for such a huge increase. We're talking about 10 to 15 kwh per day, which is as much as my parents use for their whole house. All the utlities run off our meter (part of the deal with them).

Our off peak is down to about half what it was before. The system is smaller, newer, and much more efficient than the old one, but Country Energy reckon it seems too small an amount at 6 units per day. They thought the sparky might have wired up the top element and it was coming on all the time instead of just the off peak. But our heaters don't have a top element, so it can't be that.

I'm going to take a meter reading tonight and see what we used in the 24 hours since last night. Will be interesting to see how it compares to the daily average from the last bill. Has anyone ever heard of a meter being wrong? Bloody hard to prove I would imagine.

[silentC]

This has saved me about $50.00 a quarter on my electricity bill.
It would probably save me a couple of hundred! I should qualify for a bulk discount - currently paying 15.34 cents. I'll ask her about that when I ring tomorrow to report my findings with the meter.

[silentC]

Our quarterly bill is/was around $300.00
BTW my parent's bill for the last quarter was $184. Granted they're not paying for the pumps and the septic (or the shed) but they pay for their own hot water.

[tameriska]

I enqiured with AGl a while ago on the meter, and they said (then) that it would cost $80 for someone to come out and test it, if it turned out the meter was faulty, I would get the $80 credited to my next bill

[marker]

Clipsal have a wireless monitoring meter called a Centameter , it comes with one current clamp to put over a phase wire in the meter box, but you can buy extra, when I bought one it cost $230 for three phase about 3 years ago.It doesn't give you an aggregate total but you can see what is running and switching on and off.
http://www3.clipsal.com/centameter/centameter.cfm

Mark

[JDarvall]

Walk around your house and look for extention cords. Might have a cheeky neighbor. :roll:

[snowyskiesau]

You can get the Clipsal unit from AGL stores. Price isn't mentioned on their website but
another forum I'm in, indicated current price at about $190 for a 3 phase unit.

[silentC]

Thanks Mark, I'll check them out.

Don't have any neighbours Jake! Well, there's one across the road but I think we'd notice an extension cord. :wink:

Just did another meter reading and we have used 36 units since 7pm last night, which is on par with the average daily usage from the last bill. Should be down around 18-20. But the average since the last bill is up to 38 per day. I suspect we have something here that is sucking power big time. I'm now on a mission to turn things off until I find the culprit. If I can't find anything, it has to be the meter.

[ozwinner]

Walk around your house and look for extention cords. Might have a cheeky neighbor. :roll:

Not you is it....:U:U:U:U:U:U

I would have to be a long chord though..

Al :q

[ozwinner]

Thanks Mark, I'll check them out.

Don't have any neighbours Jake! Well, there's one across the road but I think we'd notice an extension cord. :wink:

Just did another meter reading and we have used 36 units since 7pm last night, which is on par with the average daily usage from the last bill. Should be down around 18-20. But the average since the last bill is up to 38 per day. I suspect we have something here that is sucking power big time. I'm now on a mission to turn things off until I find the culprit. If I can't find anything, it has to be the meter.

You must know what current the appliances/pumps/lights should be drawing when being used?

Cant you work it as to what you should be using??

Al :)

[Grunt]

So Global Warming is all Darren's fault.

[Tankstand]

This thread has got me thinking about my household electron consumption!

My last bill (Summer!) is for $524.85 over 95 days. 26Kw per day!

I might have to do some serious shopping around.

Charges vary from 15.43 up to 19.42 cents per!

[Clinton1]

Silent - is it all a 240V system?

if so, (I'm tired, so check my maths):
to find x Watt hours:
x Watt hours = KWh x 1000
= 15,000 Wh
to convert to Amp hours, divide by voltage
15,000/240 = 62.5 Ah

or, to find amps per hour:
62.5 Ah used in a day, divide by 24 hours = 2 Amps per hour for 24 hours.

That is a big difference for a sudden increase in power consumption.... the same as 6 x 100W lightbulbs running for 24 hours.

What are the specs on the pumps that get used the most?

Again, better the check the maths.... I'm really tired.

If there are inverters in the system... you are on your own as I'm running a mile! :rolleyes:

[Master Splinter]

Both Jaycar Electroincs and Dick Smith sell a clamp ammeter which will help you figure out what's guzzling your power. About $130. Just clamp it around the power cord and see how many amps things draw. You may be amazed to see how much power appliances in 'standby' mode consume.

[silentC]

Clinton, yes it's all 240v. I'm seriously considering switching some of it over to solar. Some of the pumps could run on solar for instance.

I've switched off a few things, like the fridge in the shed for example, then I'll do another reading tomorrow night to see what if any change there is.

I was adding a few things up out of interest. For example, we have 15 12v halogen downlights in our main living area. They are on separate switches, so not all on at once and not all the time. But if they were, that's 15 x 0.06 kwh, which is 0.9 kilowatts per hour that they are on. If they were on for 2 hours, that would cost 27 cents per day to run. That's about 19% of the cost of running our house per day, if I have the maths right.

Master Splinter, thanks I'll check them out.

[Clinton1]

whats the Watt rating of the halogens?

[JDarvall]

Don't know really ..... I've been in a conversation with a plumber, about hot water systems........he was saying to ensure that the systems temp isn't set too high, or you'll get a high energy bill. I didn't take much notice at the time. and probably not your problem eh.

But, I'd definetly work it out soon Silent. Electricity consumption is monitored by authorities eh....... Hate to see your place raided one day by some kind of swat team with big guns.........

wouldn't be too pleasent being pinned to the ground and yelled at by a big copper......uno , ' Where's the stuff SILENT !..... Where you grow that mean weed ! '


:C :C .... ' I'm no deeeeealller ' (sniff) .... 'its just me hot water systemmmm set too high ' (sniff) :U :roll:

[silentC]

whats the Watt rating of the halogens?
I assumed 60 watt globes. I think the way you work it out in units as charged by the electricity supplier is 60 / 1000 = 0.06kwh per globe per hour.


Where you grow that mean weed !
Yeah, plenty of that goes on around here, although most people just go out in to dem dere hills and grow it.

[Honorary Bloke]

Our quarterly bill is/was around $300.00

Cripes, Bazza! I wish MY electric bill was $300 a quarter! :(

[Barry_White]

Cripes, Bazza! I wish MY electric bill was $300 a quarter! :(

Well Bob I do have a pretty small footprint on the planet. I use solar, I use my own water, I try to suck as little electricity out of the National Grid that I can, I grow my own vegetables. The only bad thing I do is burn firewood but I'm not polluting any neighbours, my nearest neighbour is a mile away.

[DavidG]

Its the beer fridge.
You keep opening the door too often.:doh:

Check the fridge seals, particularly at the bottom.

[silentC]

Thing is, it's the same beer fridge we had at the old house...

[RobP]

Does anyone know of a meter that you can put inline with something to see how much it is drawing over a period of time? That would be handy. Then I could monitor one of the pumps and see how much power it uses.


Hi silentC
Have a look at this from Jaycar Electronics.
MS-6115 Mains Power Meter
Plug it into a power point then plug the appliance into it.
Enter your tariff and it will tell you how much it's costing you to run.
Also displays instantaneous voltage and current being drawn as well as peak values. Battery backed up so data not lost during blackout or moving to another point.
All for the princely sum of $40.
www.jaycar.com.au (http://www.jaycar.com.au)

PS for comparison, our electricity bill for the Summer months was $356 (after $30 pensioner rebate)
but that included running a 5 1/4 HP air con for up to 12 hours most days, a computer for up to 10 hours, television for 12 hours, numerous devices in standby. We use gas for cooking and hot water.

[silentC]

Thanks Rob, that's exactly what I'm after. Unfortunately they're out of stock :( I'll contact them and find out what the back order wait is like.

Yes, I used to get bills like that. We don't have an air conditioner. That's how I know something is wrong. According to the meter, we used 20 units between 7pm last night and 10am this morning, during more than half of which we were asleep! It's not anything we are doing, I'm sure of it. Either something is eating it up, or the meter is faulty.

[silentC]

Two months away apparently. New product expected last year. Don't know why they put it up on the site when they don't have any to sell :((

[echnidna]

What about turning every thing off in turn while checking the meter to see if the disk is spinning.

[Howdya do that]

Its the beer fridge.
You keep opening the door too often.:doh:

Check the fridge seals, particularly at the bottom.

That's must be why mine is nearly a grand per quarter:doh:

[silentC]

There is no disk!

The meters they install now are digital. They click over every time another kwh is used. I've been monitoring it now every hour to see what happens. We went out to lunch, leaving nothing on. No water being used (hence no pumps, no septic system load), no lights no TV. We still used 2 kwh in a little over an hour. If it went at that rate all day, we would be up to 48kwh for the 24 hour period, which is more than 10kwh over our current average, so obviously 2kwh in an hour is up above the average for the day.

Someone just suggested to me there could be a 'leak' in one of the underground cables. Does this sound likely? I would have thought this would trip the earth leakage, but then if the problem is on the grid side of the meter board, would it?

[Big Shed]

Just because you went out to lunch doesn't mean the septic system stops working, those pumps get automatically switched on and off by the septic system controller. Likewise your fridge(s) and freezer(s) would still have been going. Granted it would be hard to see that lot chewing up 2Kw in an hour.

[silentC]

If it was the septic pumps etc. I would expect to see peaks (they only come on periodically). Instead, I'm seeing a fairly constant usage of 1.5kw per hour. It's almost predictable. 10:15 to 11:15 - 2 units, 11:15 to 12:15 - 1 unit, 12:15 to 1:15 - 2 units, 1:15 to 2:15 - 1 unit etc. If it proceeds at that rate, we get to 36 units in 24 hours, which is what I recorded last night. These meters only tick over every 1 kwh, so it's hard to tell if I have a 1kw peak every other hour, or a steady 1.5kw per hour.

Some things are using up power at a constant rate and others are causing little peaks that get absorbed in the 'granularity' of the meter. I think the only way I'll get to the bottom of it is to switch things off one by one, as suggested by Bob, and monitor. I've already started doing that by turning off the beer fridge and a couple of other things over night - with no noticeable affect so far.

My head hurts...

[marker]

If it is a dual occupancy there may be a cross over in the wiring and your'e suppling some of their power.

Mark

[silentC]

This is a possibility that has crossed my mind. I guess I can prove that by flicking my main switch and then checking all the points etc. in their place. However I would be very surprised if that has happened by mistake, because the guy we have used knows his stuff. He is a good mate of the old man's though, so it's possible they made a deal. :)

[spartan]

Silent,
this is a reasonably common complaint/concern of electricity distribution customers. So much so, that in Qld, they have setup a first point of call website for people to review - called the energy institute....

http://www.energyinstitute.com.au/energy-saver/personal-energy-report.aspx

Follow this link and let me know how you go, I may be able to step you through working a few things out.....:)

[silentC]

Country Energy has something similar. I went through and did it yesterday and according to it, our bill should be about 2/3 what the last one was. I'll go through and do that one too and see what comes up.

The thing I'm trying to make clear though is that our habits haven't really changed. Our hot water is actually more efficient, so our Off Peak has nearly been cut in half. It's the standard rate that has increased. The things that I can see as being contributors to the increase are:

12v Halogen downlights - supposedly use less energy than an incandescant bulb but we have heaps more of them

Water pumps - all our water is pumped from the tank to the house at mains pressure. The pumps come on every time a tap is turned on and there is no doubt a surge of power required to start them each time

Septic system - has an air pump that is on a timer and a water pump on a float switch which comes on when the pump out drum is full - may switch on once a day in normal use or several times on washing days.

Recycled water for toilet/irrigation - has an air pump which comes on for 2 hours per day, plus an irrigation pump which is on a float switch. May switch on once a day, or several times on washing days.

A small upright freezer which is new to us. Otherwise we have always run two fridges, one in the kitchen and a beer fridge.

Otherwise, things like TV, stereo, PC, Playstation etc. are on and off at various times as always. We don't switch off at the wall.

What I'm looking for is something that has added about 15kwh per day to our electricity usage. Something that we didn't have before. I'm buggered if I can work out what it is.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[DavidG]

15Kwh per day = 600 or so watts per hour.

???? Solar hot water heaters have an element about that size to prevent frost damage. Stuck on ?????????????????

[spartan]

600 watts per hour would be about 10 x12volt halogens - based on 61 watts per fitting. 50 watt globe and 11 watts for the transformer.

We have been installing lots of 240v energy efficient halogen replacements lately. You basically get a 50 watt reduction per fitting based on an 11 watt globe.

Coversion kits 240v to 12v are about 5.95. Globes are about $19.95, but they last significantly longer (50000 hours).

After that, check the side panel on your water pumps - they can draw a lot of power - up to 1400 watts.....

PC draw 175 watts when idle (turn on but not doing anything, 225 watts when operating within normal params. They draw 20 watts when in sleep mode.

[silentC]

No solar hot water David. We have a 315l electric storage job. It uses about 6 or 7kwh per day on Off Peak 1 at 5 cents per kwh.

The water pumps are next on the hit list. Although they wouldn't account for the steady rate throughout the day. I can hear the pumps running from my office and so I know that they rarely come on during the day. We jumped up to 4kwh between 6:15 and 8:30 tonight, which is to be expected.

I'll check out the 240v conversion as well. I'm not convinced the lights are the culprits because we don't leave them on and they're not on during the day, yet we're still doing 1.5kwh per hour, which is roughly the hourly average for the whole day (36kwh). Says to me that our usage doesn't fluctuate too much with the time of day. Also the other house has more halogens and they're all on all the time at night, yet their bill is about 1/4 of ours.

Before I go to bed tonight, I'm going to take a reading and then turn off everything in the house at the wall (besides the fridges). Let's see how much we burn overnight. If I still have a steady draw, I know something's fishy.

I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me.

[RufflyRustic]

Good Luck Silent! It's a huge thing, but I'm really impressed with how you are slowly but surely eliminating the items that are not using all the power.

cheers
Wendy

[DavidG]

Pity I was not closer. I could stick an amp-meter inplace of each fuse and check the loads per cct.

[echnidna]

Check that your hot water is running on the night switch instead of the day switch.

[silentC]

Pity I was not closer
Best time of the year for a south coast holiday :wink:

Thanks Wendy. It's actually an interesting process (despite the dollars!!) and I'm learning a fair bit about our electricity usage, which can only be a good thing.

Bob, I've got an amount on the meter for off peak (the new meters give you a separate reading for each tariff) which looks about right for the hot water service, so I think it's ok. But I'm going to get the sparky around next week to check a few things, and that will be the first thing I ask him.

[DavidG]

Best time of the year for a south coast holiday :wink:
What. You offering accomodation for a weekend ?????
Family of four plus a dog.

[Clinton1]

Sorry Silent... asked a question and went away.... I've been busy. :-

Someone else seemed to address the Halogen issue, so thats 'done'.

I share your frustration... normal usage and large spike = something wrong.
I do think you have a problem somewhere, and its only through the process of elimination that you'll find it, even with the in-line meter.

I'd isolate the main meter first.... pull your fuses and see if the meter ticks over after 1.5 hours. If not.... its 'something' in the system. Then isolate items and check... repeat cycle till you id the fault... as you seem to be doing. Have fun with the tedious job! :rolleyes: A slow job, but quicker than waiting for the meter to be stocked.

[silentC]

What. You offering accomodation for a weekend ?????
Family of four plus a dog.
I've got a shed :)

[silentC]

Interesting observation over night. I switched off everything except the waterbed and the alarm clock. All appliances off at the wall, even the cordless phone and the wall oven. The dishwasher was still running, so I left it on. I isolated the shed, which also provides power to the septic system. I left the water pumps powered up, but no-one is using them overnight. I'm pretty sure they draw no current when not running because the pressure switches are mechanical.

The meter has a night rate that appears to start at 9pm and ends at 7am. Last night it registered 4 units, 2 of which were before I switched everything off at 11:00. The previous night it metered 11 units!

Tonight I'll isolate the shed again but leave everything on in the house. Then I'll have a baseline for the house. Unfortunately, I think this rules out a problem with the meter.

[silentC]

In case anyone is after one of those power meters, the Jaycar one is about $40 retail but now not due until August. The only other thing I can find that does the same job is the Power-Mate (Aussie invention, was featured on The New Inventors) and it retails for over $300!!

Might have to bite the bullet and buy one because I'm not getting any closer to finding out where all this power is going to.

[Clinton1]

I'm sure you can buy the same item overseas and get it sent to you. Have you tried Amazon?

[silentC]

There seem to be similar units available in the UK, I suppose one of them would be OK. I'd need to use a couple of plug adaptors with it.

[DavidG]

Pull one fuse at a time until you find the loaded line.
Work along that line until you find the load.
Much cheaper than spending $300.

Pull the shed first. (Main suspect)
What is in the shed or off the shed line.

Just guesses as I have not seen your site.

Is it an old shed full of junk ???? Hidden load behind other stuff
Anything to do with chickens. ??? Incubators. Chick heaters.
Growing stuff ??? Hydroponics (Heaters lights.)


Septic pump. Motor framing (Leaking windings to earth).

Dave..

[SilentButDeadly]

For energy metering toys available in Australia...

http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=K4600 for $160 plus postage and you have to assemble it!!

Or there is the Australian made Power Mate meter from the Alternative Technology Association http://shops.bizarsoftware.com.au/ATAShop/catalogue/category16/category93/product238 for around $280. These are also available for hire from http://www.environmentshop.com.au/index.asp for $35 a week

And this one from the Rainbow Power Company http://www.rpc.com.au/catalog/energymonitor3000240vac-p-368.html?osCsid=09m9602tt9cqgesbt2jv7v69m2 for $264

[DavidG]

A cheap clamp meter from E-Bay will cost about $30 - $40.
Measure the current flow in each item.

[thatirwinfella]

A cheap clamp meter from E-Bay will cost about $30 - $40.
Measure the current flow in each item.


that isn't as easy as it sounds. if he clamped it around a normal lead any current shown would actually be leakage current as it will measure the active which will be offset by the neutral, with the difference being only earth.

i've read the odd post, and only replied to correct the above, but i'd be looking around the pumps, aircon and any heaters... i'd suspect that the pumps are a higher wattage then you thought, a heater is accidently on and blowing hot air into the middle of nowhere, or you used the aircon in summer more than you realised.

i think i saw that you've only been in the house a short while? could the previous tenant/owner have used a tonne of power for their gear or is it a new home?

[DavidG]

that isn't as easy as it sounds. if he clamped it around a normal lead any current shown would actually be leakage current as it will measure the active which will be offset by the neutral, with the difference being only earth.

Duh! You have to read the active.
If you have a Clamp meter you make an extension "lead" out (300mm) of three wire so you can access each.

With an ammeter I cut the active and feed it through the meter.

Either way I find the current flow and determine what the actual load is.

Not recomended for people who do not know what they are doing as it can bite.

[Ausyuppy]

Hi Darren

I've given up trying to find out how the electric supply company is ripping me off.

Our quarterly bill is/was around $300.00



Bazza,
Any chance it may be that bloody big light in your projector:) :) :) , how often do you have that running each day???

Also on that note, I look forward to building one of those in the next year or so when the funds allow, Im very impressed.

Cheers
Steve

[Lignum]

Daz... you need solar powered hydro, that will cut your bill significantly. And lucky you dont play electric drums eh:wink:

[Barry_White]

Bazza,
Any chance it may be that bloody big light in your projector:) :) :) , how often do you have that running each day???

Also on that note, I look forward to building one of those in the next year or so when the funds allow, Im very impressed.

Cheers
Steve

Steve

That big light is only the equivelent of 4 x 100 watt light globes and the biggest problem is that I don't watch it that much.

I spend too much time on the forum so end up watching TV on a small 10" screen along side the computer.

But it is fantastic for watching the cricket, foorball and DVD's. It is really larger than life watching it on an 2400 x 1400 screen in a 6.5m x 4.5m room.

[echnidna]

You could always become a darksider.
Candles instead of that lecktricity stuff
Salt yer vittles instead of a frig
Pit toilets stead of a treatment system
handtools in the shed

[DavidG]

How are we going unplugging various things.
Any answers yet??

[journeyman Mick]

How are we going unplugging various things.
Any answers yet??

He's unplugged his computer and is unable to answer.:doh:

Mick

[thatirwinfella]

Duh! You have to read the active.
If you have a Clamp meter you make an extension "lead" out (300mm) of three wire so you can access each.

With an ammeter I cut the active and feed it through the meter.

Either way I find the current flow and determine what the actual load is.

Not recomended for people who do not know what they are doing as it can bite.


yes, well you didn't actually say this in your post did you?

"cut the active" umm.. bad choice of words, especially if some DIY dunce was to read it.

clipsal have adaptors for clamp on ammeters that are made from double adaptor bodies. you plug them in the back and you can read the load through loops coming out the side.

[DavidG]

yes, well you didn't actually say this in your post did you?
The discussion at that point was about equipment and costs, not the use there of.



"cut the active" umm.. bad choice of words, especially if some DIY dunce was to read it.


How else do you connect an ammeter? (Not clamp on)
See foot note.



clipsal have adaptors for clamp on ammeters that are made from double adaptor bodies. you plug them in the back and you can read the load through loops coming out the side.

Not as cheap as a plug and socket.

Not recomended for people who do not know what they are doing as it can bite.
:)( :zap::stretcher: :angel:

[dai sensei]

Just caught this thread Silent. All sounds like an interesting exercise, sorry I didn't come down this year.


Pull one fuse at a time until you find the loaded line.
Work along that line until you find the load.


I think David is on the right track. Find the loaded fuse, then narrow it down unit by unit that comes off that fuse.

Good luck with it all.

[silentC]

Hey Neil, no worries, we'll catch you next time. Wasn't the best summer this year anyway, water was cold.

I've got the sparky coming around for an unrelated issue (I think - hot water has packed it in), so I'm going to pick his brains and get him to check a few things while he's here.

[mugwoody]

Hey Neil, no worries, we'll catch you next time. Wasn't the best summer this year anyway, water was cold.

I've got the sparky coming around for an unrelated issue (I think - hot water has packed it in), so I'm going to pick his brains and get him to check a few things while he's here.

You may have hit the nail on the head with this one i.e. heater packed it in, as, if the pressure / thermal valve is leaking (out of that drain thingy) then you are paying for the energy to heat that loss. This can be quite significant as the thermostat is constantly on to maintain the tank temperature.

Peter

[mugwoody]

Sorry to post one after the other but still thinking.

The other thing to keep in mind is with those mains pressure pump systems the motor start up current is around 6 to 8 times the run current and if it is constantly starting and stopping the power useage will be increased significantly.
Liken it to how the lights go dim when you start you circular saw and you'll get my drift.

Peter

[silentC]

The hot water is off peak, and our off peak usage is actually about half what it was before. It's only a new heater < 12 months old but the sparky is looking at it now.

We put the clamp meter on a few things. The average current draw for the house with everything switched on is about 2.4, which makes about 1/2 a kwh. We're going through twice that, according to the meter. I'll get him to put the clamp on the water pumps while he's here and I'll turn on a tap and see what it draws at start up and then while it's running.

[Clinton1]

http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=Q0960

Clamp meter attachment for a multimeter - $24

[silentC]

The Country Energy guy has dropped off a meter. It's one of the older mechanical ones with a bit of flex and a plug attached and a single power point. It's a bit hard to read because there's no way of resetting it and it's not possible to tell how far through a cycle it is because the counter is in kWh and the intermediate counter is graduated but has no numbers on it.

The idea is to leave it in place for 24 hours and check the reading before and after. It's a bit of a rough estimate because unless you stand and watch it, you don't know how long since it ticked over. It might read 145 but you don't know how far it is from ticking over to 146. It could take hours to move, depending on what it's connected to.

Anyway, since I got it, I've checked the two fridges and the freezer. Combined they use about 4.5kwh in 24 hours. That is within normal operating parameters for a fridge, ie. about 1.5kWh per day.

I've also had it on the water pumps since 6:00pm last night. I timed the rotor while the pump was running and it takes exactly 15 seconds to do one revolution. 187.5 revs = 1 kWh, so I worked out that it costs about 0.3 cents per minute to run. A 5 minute shower would use about 1/10th of a kWh and cost around 1.5 cents. There are 4 adults and 2 kids. The kids don't shower, they share a bath. So showering/bathing probably uses around half a kWh per day.

I've got some more calculations to do on the dishwasher (used daily) and the washing machine (used several times but usually on a single day), but I'll be surprised if in total we go through more than 1 to 2 kWh per day on electricity for the water pumps. The meter has already ticked over from when I hooked it up last night, but I doubt it has used anything like 1kWh over night and so I put that down to it being close to ticking over when I hooked it up. I estimated the beer fridge and freezer, which I metered last, would use about 3.5kWh but the meter only showed 3, so I'll assume that most of the kWh on the meter was actually used on them and not the pumps.

I'd need a clamp meter to check the startup current on the pumps because it's such a short burst and the meter I have wouldn't be able to show me anything meaningful. I'd like to buy one but funds are a bit low at the moment, so I might get the sparky to come around again. He's not charging me for his time, so I might as well make use of it.

Thanks for the link Clinton, a multimeter is something I'd like to get too. Multitude of uses around the house. I used to have one years ago but it got lost in a move.

[outback]

Hang in there Silent. You've got me hooked. I can't add anything constructive, all my ideas have been forwarded, some of them several times. Just keep unpluggin' an' meterin'. :2tsup:

[Cliff Rogers]

..... You've got me hooked....
When he finds the problem, you are going to have to buy the answer on eBay. :D

[silentC]

Have had the meter on a few things over the last week. So far I've accounted for about 18 out of 36 kWh per day. The septic system uses about 5 kWh per day, most of which is the aeration pump, which must run for 6 hours a day.

When I first put the metre on it, I calculated it was using about 700 watts per hour. We've got a spare in the shed and the label on the box says it's a 400 watt pump, so I suspected it might be faulty.

We contacted the manufacturer and they told us there's no way it should be using that much power and could we replace it and send it in for testing? We pulled the old one out and I decided to throw the new one in a 44 full of water and check it. It was pulling the same. I had a look on the specification plate and it says 3.9 amps. That's over 800 watts! So we rang the manufacturer again and the guy ended up admitting he wasn't really sure what it should be using, so he got onto the engineering department and came back with the answer that 800 watts is correct.

The 400 watts refers to the power output of the pump itself, not the electric motor that runs it. Wonder where the other 400 watts goes (isn't there something in the law of conservation of energy about that?). Maybe I am responsible for global warming...

So, no solution yet. Still a few things to meter but I can't see what's left adding up to another 18 kWh. In the meantime, we've contacted Country Energy about having the meters tested. But they never have any problems with the digital ones...

In the meantime I've been talking to my Uncle Charlie (he of the bushmill) and he has a bank of old GPO batteries and an inverter he's not using, so we might have a go at rigging up solar power for the septic system. He's got most of his stuff running off solar. The panels are hooked up to the grid when they're not recharging his batteries and he loves to watch his meter running backwards.

[outback]

The 400 watts refers to the power output of the pump itself, not the electric motor that runs it. Wonder where the other 400 watts goes (isn't there something in the law of conservation of energy about that?). Maybe I am responsible for global warming...





Freud said something about it I'm sure. :o

[Clinton1]

a 50% efficiency rating on the pump.... not a recommendation to purchase that brand!