Help. WHAT DO I DO.

[makka619]

HOW am I suppose to know that this UNobvious line means they have changed the design plans on me?

What do I do? I am so mad. I asked the guy when he came around to measure for the cupboard if there would be a dividing wall between the cupboards. He said no. I asked specifically a few times, because I did not want this. I would have kept looking for someone who could do it without out it, or I would have changed the plan entirely.

I called him up and he said that on the plan there is a line and I should have known that he changed it to add a wall in one cupboard space. I asked him why he did not tell me. NO EXPLANATION except that was the only way it could be done; WHAT did I think they would hang the door off? He asks.

I ask him why he comes around and measures cupboards and tells me he can do it this way, if in fact he can't? Doesn't he know how the cupboards need to be made? He tells me not to go around throwing insults. I tell him it's a simple question. I want to know this. Why didn't he call me, put off making the cupboard if he had to, just to let me know that what we agreed on couldn't go ahead.

He pulls out the drawing and says, there is an extra line there, WHAT did I think that was? pfft how am I suppose to know this. It is a tiny line, that I DID NOT NOTICE. As if I would have looked at it and thought, hey there's an extra line, it must mean they are putting a wall in there.

It was suppose to be 800mm in the half cupboard hanging space, that joins to the next two full length hanging space cupboards. It is pointless having the half one when it is single and a wall between. Just doesn't work, why I asked specifically not to have it.


Mind you the 800mm is a couple of cm off.

I AM JUST SOO MAD, I don't know what to do.

[silentC]

Yeah but what do you expect them to hang the door off? :)

[makka619]

Yeah but what do you expect them to hang the door off? :)

Honestly, you can't be serious. Why would I ask if they could do it without a wall, if I was to know and thus expect how the door needs to be hung.

:(Not funny.

[silentC]

Well, without actually seeing what you're ranting about, it's hard to say.

It's OK to carry on about it but either he didn't understand you or he's made a mistake in saying it can be done that way and discovered later that it couldn't. Point is, it's immaterial what he might have said, the fact is you need something to hang the door off. You can get upset about it, or you can change your plan, or you can go find someone else who can do it the way you want. It probably needs a mullion or a face frame or something to hang the door off. Or maybe sliding doors would solve it.

[makka619]

Well, without actually seeing what you're ranting about, it's hard to say.

It's OK to carry on about it but either he didn't understand you or he's made a mistake in saying it can be done that way and discovered later that it couldn't. Point is, it's immaterial what he might have said, the fact is you need something to hang the door off. You can get upset about it, or you can change your plan, or you can go find someone else who can do it the way you want. It probably needs a mullion or a face frame or something to hang the door off. Or maybe sliding doors would solve it.

Okay, but in my rant did you miss that I asked him if there would be a wall there? That he told me no. That I asked him a few times specifically because I do not want one... oh and if he was wrong AND he did not know, does that not mean he should call and let me know when he discovers that he can't do it the way I want?

For the bolded bit, yes, if I had been told that he had to put a wall up, then I would have had the opportunity to go and find someone else who could do it the way I want or change the plans.

It has already been installed. WITHOUT notification of the change. He won't fix it now. Sliding doors won't help.

[martrix]

Do a scan of the drawings in question (or take a photo of them) and post them up here.......then we can advise.

[silentC]

Ah, you neglected to mention that last bit. Well, in that case, you can either dispute it with him and tell him it's not what you wanted, not what you asked for and not what he agreed to deliver.

Obviously he either didn't understand how important it was to you, or he assumed you'd get over it.

[silentC]

He won't fix it now
Have you paid him for it?

[makka619]

Paid 50% deposit.

Here is a scan of the drawing. I will take a pic of the actual cupboard and post.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/000001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/000002.jpg

[journeyman Mick]

Makka,
from what I can see, there's two points where a misunderstanding has probably arisen.
1) You not being conversant with symbols etc used in plans. The plan clearly shows that there are two seperate units, the smaller unit having one door and the larger two.
2) The cabinetmaker may have thought that when you asked if there was to be a wall between the two units you were asking whether there would be a stud frame with gyprock either side, or perhaps a brick wall or whatever your house construction is. Strictly speaking there is no "wall" between the two units, just the components that make up the units. Semantics? perhaps.

Let's just suppose for a moment though that he had built it as one unit instead of two, which would have made it an absolute bastard to transport and install and probably more expensive. He would have had to fit a mullion instead to hang the door from. This would still not give you clear access from one section to the other so I really can't see what you would have gained besides an extra 32mm of cupboard width.

I would have built it eactly the same way. Possibly I would have gone to more trouble to ensure that I understood what you were saying and that you understood the drawing, but if you'd asked me to make it with a mullion instead of two seperate sections I would have explained that I would need to asemble it on site and that it would cost you more.

Mick

[martrix]

see pic..

It looks like the partition is on the drawing which you signed off on?

Is the cabinet one piece, or two cabinets (a thin one and a wide one) scredwed together?

[silentC]

The other problem you would have there is support for the shelves above. 1500 is a bit wide to span with no intermediate support.

[JDub]

Sorry makka but if your referring to the 'line' that matrix has drawn an arrow too, to me its pretty obviously a wall/divider of some sort.... I know very little about design plans and cupboards but it sure looks like a wall on the plan to me.........

[SilentButDeadly]

With that door arrangement, I'm knackered if I can see anyway of getting away from the divider over the drawers between between the half height and full height wardrobe area without risking:
a) the stability (and therefore lifespan) of the left main door; and
b) the weight capacity of the top shelves.

Of course, Old Mate CabinetMaker could have put a small riser in there to carry the hinge instead of the complete divider but would that have made you any happier?

[martrix]

There are most definitely ways of doing it the way makka wanted, but all of them would definitely cost more than what he paid for what he got.

Why was it so critical to have the space open?

[johnc]

Sorry also Makka, it looks exactly like a divider to me, can't get any clearer than that. It is unfortunate that you have misunderstood a fairly basic drawing and feel hard done by, but the cabinet maker seems to have provided you with what you needed to work things out. Perhaps he misunderstood your skill level, which doesn't make him wrong, and maybe he failed to understand what you tried to ask but I actually think what you have is a sensible design.

John.

[makka619]

Sorry guys. He did not misunderstand me AT ALL. He knows what I wanted. He did not dispute this fact. He just said he found out he couldn't do it the way I asked so changed the plans.

DID he inform me. NO.

Do I look like someone who would understand the diagrams of a drawing. I don't think so. How am I supposed to know this detail, when I have never dealt with drawn plans before.

I will just add: The builder said he thought it was strange the way it was designed. He said the space was way too small to hang clothes. He said that if we changed the height of a shelf he could have take the wall out. He thought it was weird dividing a single space like that. He said he thought the draws were even way too deep. But he just followed the plans.

So now I am assuming this is the first job this guy has designed.

[makka619]

Makka,
from what I can see, there's two points where a misunderstanding has probably arisen.
1) You not being conversant with symbols etc used in plans. The plan clearly shows that there are two seperate units, the smaller unit having one door and the larger two.
2) The cabinetmaker may have thought that when you asked if there was to be a wall between the two units you were asking whether there would be a stud frame with gyprock either side, or perhaps a brick wall or whatever your house construction is. Strictly speaking there is no "wall" between the two units, just the components that make up the units. Semantics? perhaps.

Let's just suppose for a moment though that he had built it as one unit instead of two, which would have made it an absolute bastard to transport and install and probably more expensive. He would have had to fit a mullion instead to hang the door from. This would still not give you clear access from one section to the other so I really can't see what you would have gained besides an extra 32mm of cupboard width.

I would have built it eactly the same way. Possibly I would have gone to more trouble to ensure that I understood what you were saying and that you understood the drawing, but if you'd asked me to make it with a mullion instead of two seperate sections I would have explained that I would need to asemble it on site and that it would cost you more.

Mick


Sorry that actual drawing was the first one, which he changed. The door goes all the way down as the others do.

[makka619]

see pic..

It looks like the partition is on the drawing which you signed off on?

Is the cabinet one piece, or two cabinets (a thin one and a wide one) scredwed together?


Uploading some pics.

This is the spot where he told me there would be no wall divider. Just the frame to hold the doors.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/111111111.jpg

[makka619]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/c1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/c2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/c3.jpg

[makka619]

There are most definitely ways of doing it the way makka wanted, but all of them would definitely cost more than what he paid for what he got.

Why was it so critical to have the space open?


Because that is the way I asked specifically. I put my hand through the old frame to show what I wanted to make sure. I asked him if I could put my hand through and there there there wouldn't be a wall stopping me?

Because I know that a wall divided on a coat hanging space of a one cupboards space takes away the usefulness of it. When the clothes can all flow together, it is more efficient, especially space wise. I would have redesigned the whole cupboard if I had to put a wall there.


And yes the builder who put the cupboard in said that it could have been done. It wouldn't have cost more, it was just a matter or changing to the height of the shelf above and the height of the hanging space.

The designer said everyone gets their half hanging spaces made to this height. The builder questioned it, thinking it was unusual. It is way to short.

[silentC]

OK, well with the cup hinges used on the doors, there's no way really it could have been done any other way. You would have had a strip down there at least 100mm or so deep to take the hinges anyway, or some contrivance up the top to take the top one at least. In either case, fiddly and flimsy and far from perfect.

To be honest, I think it would seem strange to have that void behind the middle door. It needs to close against something or there would be a gap that you could see between the door on the left and the middle door.

Two doors instead of three might have been better. But can you explain why you have an issue with the partition in the first place? Personally I can't see the disadvantage in it being there.

[floobyduster]

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire, but I'm interested to see that the drawing shows only 3 doors, but the photos show that 6 have been installed!

[makka619]

OK, well with the cup hinges used on the doors, there's no way really it could have been done any other way. You would have had a strip down there at least 100mm or so deep to take the hinges anyway, or some contrivance up the top to take the top one at least. In either case, fiddly and flimsy and far from perfect.

To be honest, I think it would seem strange to have that void behind the middle door. It needs to close against something or there would be a gap that you could see between the door on the left and the middle door.

Two doors instead of three might have been better. But can you explain why you have an issue with the partition in the first place? Personally I can't see the disadvantage in it being there.


If it couldn't be done, I would love to have been informed before the cupboard was built.

[ozwinner]

Uploading some pics.

This is the spot where he told me there would be no wall divider. Just the frame to hold the doors.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/little_bear_81/111111111.jpg

The plan clearly shows there is a divider.

Al :?:?:?

[makka619]

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire, but I'm interested to see that the drawing shows only 3 doors, but the photos show that 6 have been installed!


Because I asked for 6. He drew it up as 3. I don't know why. So he drew over a print out in red pen to show it with 6.

Same with the longer door, he changed that. We never asked for the drawers to be shown. He told us he couldn't cover with the door without coming in a few mm. Asked what way we wanted it and we chose the door to cover the drawers.

[makka619]

The plan clearly shows there is a divider.

Al :?:?:?


Okay that's good to know NOW.



But why wouldn't he tell me?



I am a young female. I don't deal with woodwork daily or ever. Notifying me of something like this would be nice.

[silentC]

Well, your original question was "what do I do".

Your options are:

1. Live with it
2. Refuse to pay the balance and get him to come up with a solution that you both agree to
3. Rip it out and get someone else to do it

Apart from venting steam over it, I can't really see what other option you have. If it was me and I was that upset about it, I would fix it myself. Been there and done that, you know "if you want it done properly you have to do it yourself".

[makka619]

I should have known that a line there meant that he was installing a wall. I should probably study building before hiring someone.

At least I know now that if I am told it can be done one way, and they decide it is easier to change it, they will not bother telling me to see how I feel about it or work out a solution.

[martrix]

Because I asked for 6. He drew it up as 3. I don't know why. So he drew over a print out in red pen to show it with 6.

.

I think maybe someones wires got crossed up right there.

Theres not much you could do to successfully modify it (without it ending up patchy) now with the way it has been made.

Like SilentC, I don't see a huge advantage in not having that small partition there, but then again, I'm not female and most of my clothes live on the floor.:rolleyes:

It looks like a pretty neat job anyway.

[ozwinner]

Okay that's good to know NOW.



But why wouldn't he tell me?



I am a young female. I don't deal with woodwork daily or ever. Notifying me of something like this would be nice.


Not wishing to pick a fight.
But, that sounds like a cop out.

With the plans, if you didnt understand them, you should have got someone who does to explain them to you.

Al :)

[JDarvall]

Curious. How much is he asking for the whole lot ?

[Jedo_03]

Curious. How much is he asking for the whole lot ?

$1160 it says on the quote in an earlier thread
Jedo

[makka619]

Not wishing to pick a fight.
But, that sounds like a cop out.

With the plans, if you didnt understand them, you should have got someone who does to explain them to you.

Al :)


I should have known that a line there meant that he was installing a wall. I should probably study building before hiring someone.

At least I know now that if I am told it can be done one way, and they decide it is easier to change it, they will not bother telling me to see how I feel about it or work out a solution.

[makka619]

Curious. How much is he asking for the whole lot ?

$1215

[makka619]

He was not going to give me those plans. I asked for a written quote and description.

He would not have told me of the change.

[makka619]

OK, well with the cup hinges used on the doors, there's no way really it could have been done any other way. You would have had a strip down there at least 100mm or so deep to take the hinges anyway, or some contrivance up the top to take the top one at least. In either case, fiddly and flimsy and far from perfect.

To be honest, I think it would seem strange to have that void behind the middle door. It needs to close against something or there would be a gap that you could see between the door on the left and the middle door.

Two doors instead of three might have been better. But can you explain why you have an issue with the partition in the first place? Personally I can't see the disadvantage in it being there.


Well you know how I feel about it, it's what I wanted, and what I asked for. He said yes.

The builder said yes I could have done it the way I wanted if we changed a couple of dimensions.

So there you go, if only i knew.

Damn me and my chatter in tech studies.

[makka619]

Well, your original question was "what do I do".

Your options are:

1. Live with it
2. Refuse to pay the balance and get him to come up with a solution that you both agree to
3. Rip it out and get someone else to do it

Apart from venting steam over it, I can't really see what other option you have. If it was me and I was that upset about it, I would fix it myself. Been there and done that, you know "if you want it done properly you have to do it yourself".

Thanks silentC.

[Ian Smith]

Macca,
It's a lesson that's hard in the learning but the reality is, unfortunately, if you want something done the way you want it then you have to do it yourself. That way, when it turns to s**t, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

You'll see dire warnings on this forum about messing with stuff that needs a licensed tradesman - especially electricity. <O:p
In those situations you really have little choice, but the problem is that if it was just hooking up the wires or the pipes or taps, where they have the expertise, correct tools, and relevant certifications, then you have to accept that what they do is as good as it gets.
BUT what happens when these "specialists" have to turn their hands to another skill, to complete the job?
<O:p
That's when the plumber resorts to hammer to bash a hole in the bottom of your cupboard to get to the pipe he's just cracked while trying fit a compression fitting.<O:p</O:p
That's when the “sparky” uses any old bit of bent up metal he can find rattling around in his truck to complete a difficult ceiling fan installation, and so on.
<O:p</O:p
It's been my experience that most of these specialists make up their mind what they are going to do within a very short time after seeing the job. You can stand there for as long as you like explaining exactly what you want, and why you want it, but it makes not the slightest bit of bloody difference because they are not listening.
<O:p
That's why I have a driveway that slopes the wrong way<O:p
That's why I have house extension slab that is 10 mm lower than the original and which, by the way had to boxed up three times because the bloke didn't know what a right angle was.
That's why the cupboard doors open the wrong way and the drawers are on the wrong side of my computer desk.<O:p
That's why our air conditioner didn't work correctly for nearly two years because of over gassing.

Oh, and you got an additional problem - you're a woman!! So what would you know? (SWMBO just threw that in)
<O:p
I've probably offended all the tradesmen on this forum, but fair dinkum, you blokes are your own worst enemy, and if the caps fits........<O:p
<O:p
Ian<O:p

[ozwinner]

<o></o>
I've probably offended all the tradesmen on this forum, but fair dinkum, you blokes are your own worst enemy, and if the caps fits........<o>:p</o><o>:p</o>
Ian<o></o>

Hey...... you havent insulted Bricklayers.....I feel left out.. :(:(
And I didnt need my wife to tell me that either..:U

Al :2tsup:

[journeyman Mick]

.................I've probably offended all the tradesmen on this forum, but fair dinkum, you blokes are your own worst enemy, and if the caps fits........<O:p....................


Cap doesn't fit me:D
It is possible to get exactly what you want. You just need:
1)The ability to comunicate exactly what it is you want. In building this is best accomplished with detailed plans and a written scope of works.
2)A good tradesman.

Now a lot of you are going to say that number 2 is very hard to find, and I'll agree with you there, but very few people have got the clear, precise and concise communication happening either.

Makka,
I'm sorry you had to find out some things the hard way. Hopefully using this forum will help you avoid a lot of pitfalls. Unfortunately you've also found that a lot of trademen are dismissive of women. That's totally inexcusable (and very poor business). What the builder is saying about it being possible is correct, but if it was my job it would cost you more to do it in one piece ratehr than two. Less materials but a whole lot more drama and onsite work. I'm a carpenter by trade but have been building cabinets, on and off, for about fifteen years.

Mick

[bricks]

Macca,
<O:p
I've probably offended all the tradesmen on this forum, but fair dinkum, you blokes are your own worst enemy, and if the caps fits........<O:p
<O:p
Ian<O:p

Shocking tradesman make me look good and ensure that i get lots of work, the times Ive gone to a quote and had the owner say " that's highway robbery" or something to that effect, then had to go back three weeks later and fix a poor job and charge more.

After that happens I have a customer for life. I love it when tradies do poor work, rip off clients, don't do whats asked. Because of them I can work as much as I want, for as much $ as I want. I have customers who will wait 2-4 months for a bathroom reno because they won't even ask another plumber.

[Bleedin Thumb]

. but it makes not the slightest bit of bloody difference because they are not listening.
<O:p
That's why I have a driveway that slopes the wrong way<O:p
That's why I have house extension slab that is 10 mm lower than the original and which, by the way had to boxed up three times because the bloke didn't know what a right angle was.
That's why the cupboard doors open the wrong way and the drawers are on the wrong side of my computer desk.<O:p
That's why our air conditioner didn't work correctly for nearly two years because of over gassing.

<O:p

I've probably offended all the tradesmen on this forum, but fair dinkum, you blokes are your own worst enemy, and if the caps fits........<O:p
<O:p
Ian<O:p




Don't know............. but maybe they pick up on the attitude.:roll:

Maybe I've just offended all the grumpy old men on the forum..if the cardigan fits...:D

[Ian Smith]

Listen mate,
When you're on my property, spending my money, you'll bloody well do what I want, and if you can't you can take the time to tell me why. What's so hard about that ??

I didn't start out grumpy... so called tradesmen made me that way

Ian

[bricks]

Hmmmmm. Do lots of work for little old ladies and hot divorcees....

or drill sargent up here.....

Serious bloke, you look after tradies- they look after you,

Any tradies who think it's good to pull one over the ladies well. IMO if your in with the lady of the house your set for life. As most of us know Its not a joke that women make alot of decisions in the house with most of us boys flogging our souls all day and night to keep up with the bills, that includes repairs. If a lady likes your work you can be assured of one thing, she will tell everyone she knows about it, and vice versa

[Ian Smith]

Bricks,
This is taking a bit of turn.
Don't get me wrong, when a job requires a tradesman, then I have no option but to engage one.
But, being an ordinary householder and needing mostly one-of jobs, and then infrequently, there is no opportunity to build a relationship with anyone. I just go to the yellow pages and look for a local and then it's cross my fingers and hope he/she is good enough.
I don't try to tell them their job, and I keep out of their way, but at the end of the day I have certain requirements (like not having water run uphill) which I expect to be meet, and I try to convey this to whomever is doing the work.
What really gives me the "tom-tits" is the sort of things I outlined in my original post. I suppose I could have stopped payment, but that 's a slippery slope and, as Macca has found out, it's usually too late.
No, the onus is on the tradesman to understand the clients requirements and implement them, and if something has problems or implications then it's up to them to point these out to me - after all they are the experts. If I knew as much as they then I wouldn't have needed to call them in the first place.

Ian

[journeyman Mick]

......................No, the onus is on the tradesman to understand the clients requirements and implement them................

Ian,
I'm not sure I agree with you there, you don't think the client has an equal responsibility to communicate their requirements to the client? Communication is a two way street.




................ and if something has problems or implications then it's up to them to point these out to me.........................
Definitely agree with you there Ian.

Mick

[Ian Smith]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

If the client was knowledgeable in the field, then it's more likely, but in Macca's case I don't think she was in a position to understand the implications of her requirements, and the cabinet maker should have been taken the time to explore alternatives, rather than just doing what he had obviously made up his mind to do.

It may have cost more and taken more time to do it the way Macca wanted or it may have been impractical, but she wasn't given the option to decide

It may be obvious to anyone with some experience that provision had to made for door hinges, or that the span of the unsupported shelf was too great, but through no fault of her own, Macca didn't know that, and it's arrogant to just ignore her requirements regardless of how impractical they may have been without at least acknowledging them and giving her the opportunity to understand why.

Ian

[Sturdee]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.



In that case get an architect or draftsman to draw up plans and species and get a quote on what has been drawn up. Then if it is not built in terms of the plans and species you have a case, but in this case, notwithstanding what a builder said could be done or discussed, the plan prepared by the cabinet maker clearly showns the wall.

It may be a hard lesson but she has herself to blame for not verifying the plan submitted.


Peter.

[makka619]

Yes I blame myself. Stupid, daft me. Don't trust builders they don't give a rats' ass about helping you:)

The kitchen was completed beautifully; by my ex tech teacher nontheless.

No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.

Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises. Nadda. I bow down to his professionalism, and have and will continue to recommend him with such high praises whenever I can.

I spoke to some friends. I got in touch with a high contract builder. They all believe that any changes I should have been informed of.

Why would I question something when I am not expecting it to be there? When I am reassured a few times that it will not be there.

I would not even think to look at a picture that is done one dimensional and pretend to notice an extra line that supposedly represents a wall. I did not study architecture. I don’t even know the back of a hammer. But perhaps I am just blonde.

Builders should honestly care about a clients' wants. Like I said, he knew what I wanted, he wasn't disputing that. His reasoning was that after he agreed he could/would do it how I asked, he changed it because he realised it couldn't be done.

So where do I come into this change of plan? Where do my wants/desires/specifics in getting the job done come into this?

The fact is, in his book, I didn't come into it. I wanted a cupboard, I would still get a cupboard. But the details I want, well they don't matter.

It saves time from thinking about how we can possibly overcome this presumable dilemma. It saves time from talking to the builder; you know the guy who puts the thing together. It saves time from talking to me and seeing if I want to change the design because he can no longer do what I CLEARLY ask for. Yes, clearly. I did not stutter. I did not mumble.

He wanted me to come in to pay 50&#37; deposit at reception. I asked him to draw up a quote and he said okay, come in at such and such a time then so I can get the quote. I was never to see that drawing, and if I hadn't I would not have had 6 doors as I asked but 3. So perhaps I should be grateful I caught that one change of plan out. Woot; not completely blonde, but apparently still blonde.

Thinking... thinking... thinking... I guess standing there and telling some builders what you want is pointless. As much of a waste of your own time and theirs. In the end they will make changes to your specifics without hesitation or a second thought your way.

[Ian Smith]

In that case get an architect or draftsman to draw up plans

Peter.

Sturdee,
If we are talking about a house extension maybe, but this is a cupboard for goodness sake. Can't we trust the expertise of our tradesmen to get a small thing like that right?

Ian

[makka619]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

If the client was knowledgeable in the field, then it's more likely, but in Macca's case I don't think she was in a position to understand the implications of her requirements, and the cabinet maker should have been taken the time to explore alternatives, rather than just doing what he had obviously made up his mind to do.

It may have cost more and taken more time to do it the way Macca wanted or it may have been impractical, but she wasn't given the option to decide

It may be obvious to anyone with some experience that provision had to made for door hinges, or that the span of the unsupported shelf was too great, but through no fault of her own, Macca didn't know that, and it's arrogant to just ignore her requirements regardless of how impractical they may have been without at least acknowledging them and giving her the opportunity to understand why.

Ian

Thanks Ian for your input.

You have put what I am trying to say better.

I know it happens a lot. My friends were telling me stories and a few said they have just given up worrying about it.

The hospital had a disabled persons shower installed. They stuffed it up, put the drain on the high end of the floor. So a pool of water was left in the low un-drained end.

One person asked for the tiles to be done matching the straight kitchen ones, not diagonal. Yes, yes, yes, they say, yes we can do that. The come home after work and suprise; they are layed diagonal. :roll:

And on and on.

[Ian Smith]

Macca,
Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

Ian

[martrix]

The kitchen was completed beautifully; by my ex tech teacher nontheless.

No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.

Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises. Nadda. I bow down to his professionalism, and have and will continue to recommend him with such high praises whenever I can.


Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?

[makka619]

Macca,
Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

Ian

You are completely right. Thankyou.

[makka619]

Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?

He designs kitchens, not closets.

:(

[journeyman Mick]

Makka,
it's very poor that the bloke didn't listen to you and very poor business wise. However, if you really push the case, the plan (even though he wasn't going to give it to you) forms part of the contract documentation. I don't know how/if you can resolve this satisfactorily.

In general work needs to be specified in writing or with a plan or preferably both. Discuss the plans with anyone quoting on the job and specify that they will refer to the plans/specs in their quotation. Ie: $XXXX for cabinet/tiles/kitchen/drain/whatever as per drawings specifications supplied by client. By doing this you are communicating key points:
1) When I get other people to quote on this I'll be comparing apples with apples so I'm not wasting your time
2) I know exactly what's required and what I want
3) if it all goes pear shape then i have a legally powerful document so don't f**k with me!

Mick

[JDarvall]

:(

oh well. You'll be right. Keep your chin up. Go have a glass of wine or something.

Men. we're all baaaaaarstards. Even when we do everything right. We're still baaaaarstards. :;

[silentC]

It seems as though at the moment it's more important to you to get everyone to agree with you that you've been hardly done by than it is to solve your problem. How about moving on from that and looking at what, if anything, you are going to do about it.

From your telling of the story, it sounds like you have been stuffed around, there are always two sides to a story - but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Now, what are you going to do about it? If you're just blowing off steam and don't intend to do anything, then there's nothing more to say.

[martrix]

He designs kitchens, not closets.

:(

A box is a box.

Any competent "Cabinetmaker" should be able to go from a kitchen, to a closet, to a dining room table.

Did he tell you he couldn't do it, or did you assume he could do it?

[makka619]

A box is a box.

Any competent "Cabinetmaker" should be able to go from a kitchen, to a closet, to a dining room table.

Did he tell you he couldn't do it, or did you assume he could do it?

It's irrelevant.

[makka619]

It seems as though at the moment it's more important to you to get everyone to agree with you that you've been hardly done by than it is to solve your problem. How about moving on from that and looking at what, if anything, you are going to do about it.

From your telling of the story, it sounds like you have been stuffed around, there are always two sides to a story - but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Now, what are you going to do about it? If you're just blowing off steam and don't intend to do anything, then there's nothing more to say.



LOL yes I am online lying to you.:2tsup:

:roll:

I find that you trying to psychoanalyse me on the internet pretty weird. Does this matter that much to you? That you think you need to look deeper past my discriptions?

I am blowing off a bit of steam. Of course I know how I feel about it and what I am going to about it. Nothing you say matters:). And by all means whatever you want to think, I ain't stopping you.

[Groggy]

Generally the true mark of a tradesman is not whether they get it right first time, but how they respond to fixing problems - whether their fault or not.

If he digs in there is not a lot you can do about it, as the others say, it is in the drawings.

Will he compromise at all?

[silentC]

Why did you bother putting "WHAT DO I DO" in the thread subject line then? You obviously just want to have a whinge.

[silentC]

Actually, now you have really gotten up my nose.

You come on with your "woe is me" tale. A few people offer you suggestions on what to do but you ignore them and just focus on the ones who suggest you might have been in the wrong in the first place. Then you accuse me of trying to psychoanalyse you. All I'm trying to do is focus on solving your problem and moving on from who is to blame. Then you say you know what you are going to do and what I say or think doesn't matter. So exactly what do you want us to do for you? If you didn't want anything, then why post.

I feel a bit sorry for the guy having to deal with you actually.

[martrix]

............whatever.

The sun is shining outside, have a nice day:)

[makka619]

Why did you bother putting "WHAT DO I DO" in the thread subject line then? You obviously just want to have a whinge.


:;Is that such a bad thing.

Stop reading so much into it.

It shouldn't matter to you about any of my responses :)

[makka619]

............whatever.

The sun is shining outside, have a nice day:)


Thanks:) You too.

I just don't want this thread to drag on off topic. As you have seen from some of the recent responses, it will go around in circles for ever. I have an opinion, know how I feel and what I plan to do about it.

Thanks for your input though, honestly. :)

[silentC]

I'm sorry, but when I read "Help. WHAT DO I DO" I assumed that you wanted help. My mistake... :p

[makka619]

I'm sorry, but when I read "Help. WHAT DO I DO" I assumed that you wanted help. My mistake... :p


silentC: you know I was upset. And probably started this thread in haste. I apologise for that.

Really my problem here is not something to try and communcate via the net. I should sort it out on my own where it is a reality.

I have not meant to offend you. I just think it's getting a little out of hand.

[silentC]

I just think it's getting a little out of hand
I agree. Stop biting everyone's heads off and we'll all get on fine :)

We're all really just decent people trying to help. That's all. Hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.

[JDarvall]

:yucky:...:roll: gone all lovey dovey.

[silentC]

It's all you need :wink:

[Jack E]

<O:p</O:p
It's been my experience that most of these specialists make up their mind what they are going to do within a very short time after seeing the job. You can stand there for as long as you like explaining exactly what you want, and why you want it, but it makes not the slightest bit of bloody difference because they are not listening.
<O:p
That's why I have a driveway that slopes the wrong way<O:p
That's why I have house extension slab that is 10 mm lower than the original and which, by the way had to boxed up three times because the bloke didn't know what a right angle was.
That's why the cupboard doors open the wrong way and the drawers are on the wrong side of my computer desk.<O:p
That's why our air conditioner didn't work correctly for nearly two years because of over gassing.

<O:p
I don't think over gassing an air con fits in with the rest of your list.

You said yourself that if you want something done properly do it yourself,

Well go ahead and stop having a go at tradies.

Some people need to learn that you can't do everything yourself, be it for legal reasons, required skills or essential equipment requirements.

The biggest lesson to learn is that YOU need to ensure that the tradesman understands exactly what you want, and that if he doesn't deliver, he doesn't get paid.

BTW, what is it that you do for a living?

Cheers, Jack

[makka619]

I think that all tradies need to communicate with you when they are changing the plans from something you specify and they verbally agree can and will be done.

If it is something you want and they say it is something they can do, then it adds to your decision in hiring this person for the job. If they can't do something that you specifically tell them you need then they should be honest and tell you so. If for some reason they don't understand it can't be done until a later date, they need to inform you as they find out before changing the design.

Things are solved this way, it gives clients the opportunity to think about what they would like to do if the original plan can't go ahead. By the way the builder said he could have put the gap in there, with enough room on the wood to hold the hinges. Perhaps not ideal, but something I would like to have had the choice in deciding on.

It is the same everywhere in professional businesses. You are there to help the client; that is your job. You need to keep in contact with the client with any problems no matter how seemingly small. It the client asks for something one way and it can't be done, you call them and let them know.

You can not assume that just because it can't be done then you will do it how you see fit. I could have chosen sliding doors to get what I want. Yes that would probably cost more, but who is he to make the decision that I won't be able to afford sliding doors. There are many options, but as long as I am not informed that he can't do what I want then I never get the chance to look into them.

It is his job as the designer to draw up the architectural plans to get what I want. If I knew how to do this, I would have had no reason for hiring him and done it myself and gone straight to a builder. His job is to tell me what can be done, once he agrees that what I ask for is possible and will be done I will take his word for it.

If he must change the plans because it is impossible to do, I need to be told. He can not assume that just because he realises it can't be done the way I ask, he can change it without telling me and I will be happy.

[Ian Smith]

Jack E ,
I work for *** as a ######### ######## ##### and ************ ******* since you ask, although what that has to do do with anything is a bit of a mystery.
Yeah, maybe the air-con is a bit out of left field, but there's a story there that I won't go into here. Fact remains that a Refrigeration tradesman installed the thing and buggered it up.
I can't do everything, more's the pity, because if I could I would, and if you took the trouble to read my posts you'd see that.
Yes, you're correct in saying that it's up to me to ensure that the tradesman understands what I want, but I have experienced enough situations where they nod their head and agree with everything I say, and promptly go of and do it their way.
So you're wrong mate ,the tradesman is supposed to be the expert, not me, and it's up to him/her to point out any problems with what I want, and if there aren't any ,then that's the way it should be done.

Anyway, I've said as much already in my previous posts and I'm getting the feeling I'm talking to a tradesman who isn't listening.:banghead:

Ian

[makka619]

Of course it's your own duty to make sure tradesmen know what you want.

The tradesman completely understood what I wanted.

It is also a tradesman duty to follow through on what you want. What do they do when they can no longer do the job how you had asked and both agreed on? Not informing of making a change and just doing it any way they see fit, is rude.

Like I said, the guy who installed my kitchen had no problem calling me as soon as a problem arose.

When I was an intern at the paper, I worked around a few jobs. Everything revolved around making the customer happy. You must meet their needs. Someone wants an ad in the paper, they ask for it bolded, you tell them you can do that. Later you find out it can't be done, you call the client before proceeding with the ad. Might seem like a simple thing, but with the amount of ads that come through, and the constant deadlines, making phone calls is time consuming. Yet it must be done.

The way I see it, is the customer is paying for your service. You are there to help them get what they want.

I don't care if they built the taj mahal for me, it's not what I asked for and not what I was told I would get.

[Clinton1]

No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.
Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises.


That is a good tradie.

Don't know how you will fix the problem with the bloke who did your cupboard.
Don't think that this smartarses has pulled a swifty on you just cause you are a woman... no doubt he'd do it to anyone that presented the same problem.

I say smartarse as you've said that you made your requirements clear, and that he said that he understood them... then he decided to do it a different way and 'slipped' the change in via a document rather than talking you through it.

Comments in regards to "well, you should be able to read the drawing" are unrealistic and unhelpful...
if you clearly communicated your requirements to him and if he said he understood them, then any changes/variations should be explained. Slipping them through on a document that wasn't going to be given to you is just plain dodgy.

Question:
Have you explained to the bloke why you are dissatisfied?

Have you asked what he will do, now that you have something that does not meet your specifications?
If so, what were the answers?


Sorry if this has been covered previously, I might have missed it in the preceeding pages.

[pawnhead]

You could have had a clear opening and three doors with a bifold (http://www.lincolnsentry.com.au/Product.aspx?id=669) on one side (Or four doors with a bifold on each side), and floor to ceiling doors.
With no track, you could have separate doors on top. If you'd wanted a guide track it would be extra, but without it, I would have charged less, and built it on site.

$1250 is alright money for that job.
It's just a guesstimate, but I reckon the sheet would be less than $250, and the rest of the gear would be around $200. That's 800 bucks (http://www.connectwise.com/psanewsletters/images/money_pocket.jpg) (+/- $100) in the skyrocket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvjeSK8b1Xs) for a couple of days work tops.
(I could be a bit out though. Cabinetmaking isn't my main line)

Not bad money.

Cheers (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Cheers.jpg) :p (http://www.kidcyber.com.au/IMAGES/tongue.jpg)

[Jack E]

I work for *** as a ######### ######## ##### and ************ ******* since you ask, although what that has to do do with anything is a bit of a mystery.
I ask because you seem to think that the way you want a job done is the best, regardless of what the trady has learnt in his field.
I thought that you may be able to look at your profession and see an example where an amateur thinks he knows better than the professional they are hiring to do the work:rolleyes:

Tradesman love nothing more than a bit of advice from someone who thinks he knows what he is doing:rolleyes:

However, we should all try to please the customer.
If someone wants something done a particular way, I will try to do it that way, if it isn't going to work I will tell them why.

Cheers, Jack

[JDarvall]

WELL, I reakon.......nahhh forget it.