Is This Wiring Set Up Illegal?

[Metal Head]

Hi,

As mentioned in some of my recent threads, we are having our kitchen update. This arvo I detached a lamp (from the ceiling) we had purchased to go in the dining part of the reno. Unfortunately they didn't contact us prior to it being fixed as the suspending chain was to be shortened and the position of it wasn't in the correct place:((. So I took it on myself to detach it and shorten it to the required (what we wanted) height. However, when I came to putting the wires back together I noticed the earth wire had a loose sheath around it and it appears that the eath wire wasn't part of the orginal white cable:?.

Thus is this illegal?. If it is, I would be disappointed (as well as annoyed) as they had to put in wiring for the 6 new downlights (in the kitchen area) only 2 metres away. They also only had one of the 2 self tappers actually biting into the ceiling plasterboard - the other one was just turning around (stripped) thus should it not hold over time it would most like have fallen and broke on our table - well it only cost us $220:(.

Cheers
David

[outback]

I'm not not qualified so I can't tell you this looks hunky dorey to me. The cable used relies on the outer white sheath to insulate the earth, the electrickery person then whacked the green stuff on.
As for the stripped screws etc, that sounds dodgier.

The illegal poart was you shortening the chain and playing with the wires.

[Ashore]

That is commen practise to run some green spagetti over the white doubt if its legal if you go to the n th degree as the earth should be markedwith green and a yellow stripe :rolleyes: Guess they were just using a cheep optionand using cable they had rather than cable with a marked earth
As to how securelly the light was fitted to the celing that was just shoddy:no:
Rgds

[pawnhead]

I'm no sparkie and I'm sure one will be along shortly, but that looks like a normal cable to me. Earth wires aren't double insulated.
Depending on the weight of the light fixture, it should have been attached with spring toggles, or screwed directly into a joist or noggin.

[^BL|TZ^]

Hi people,

i am a qualified sparky and and say for certain that this is perfectly legal and is an old style cable before they brought in cable which had an earth and with its own individual insulation running the complete length of the cable.

it was the way they did it in the past, the earth was not insulated in the cable except where it was terminated on power points etc they put this green spaghetti over it.

I can only assume they have used the old existing cable, but if it is a completely new light point, they should have used new cable

Hope this helps:B

[Ausyuppy]

Hi Metal Head,
I believe this cable was used in the 80's and possibly the 70's. Its perfectly legit. By rights the earth cable never carries any current, unless there is a short in the equipment connected to the circuit. Im guessing the standards at the time of when your house was built was to place a green sheath over the conductor to signify that it is an earth wire.

Ive seen some wiring of houses built in the 70's that had a completely seperate earth wire which followed the active / neutral pair around the roof and under the floor boards. I guess its different standards for the times.

As for the light fixture.....dodgy bloke who did that. Gyprock plugs dont cost much, I would have assumed that sparkies would have some of em in their van.

Cheers
Steve

[journeyman Mick]

From memory this type of cable was in use until the early/mid '80s.

Mick

[thatirwinfella]

like everyone else is saying, it's perfectly legal. if you're really concerned about how loose it is, apply a layer of heatshrink to it.

the dodgy doings by the electrician is that the light wasn't secured properly. use gravity toggles rather than wall plugs if you replace it yourself, the weight may pull the plugs out of the ceiling.

next time, i wouldn't encourage you to disconnect lights yourself, it is illegal and you had a fair case to call the sparky back in his own time to fix the fitting.

[Metal Head]

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who answered my call for help. I am aware that disconnecting & reconnecting is illegal but you don't need to be a genius to put the wires back as I took them out.

In regard to the retaining screws, I replaced both with toggles which appear to have done the job. In regards to getting the sparkie back why bother if he wasn't competent to do the job correctly in the first place why get him back a second time?. Unfortunately he is not alone, getting good tradespeople is very hard in Melbourne which only encourages the likes of I to do various jobs around the house and outside it.

Btw are Gyprock screws the metal/plastic screws that have a large type of thread on them and allows a self tapper to be used in the centre of them?. If so, I have only ever seen them located in walls assuming they are alright in shear but not in a vertical position:?.

Thanx once again.

Regards
David

[bricks]

Im no sparky, but id probably run a new batten in the ceiling to hold the light fitting if its heavy.

[pawnhead]

Btw are Gyprock screws the metal/plastic screws that have a large type of thread on them and allows a self tapper to be used in the centre of them?. If so, I have only ever seen them located in walls assuming they are alright in shear but not in a vertical position:?.I wouldn't trust them in tension. I'd get a couple of spring toggles, or if it was a heavy light, put a batten in as bricksy has suggested.

It sounds like you've finished the job, but if anyone else reads this, then of course you must get a sparky in, but if you want to ignore the advice, then make sure you turn off all the power at the mains first. Sometimes cowboys wire up lights on a power circuit instead of a light circuit.
Turn on the light first to make sure it works, then cut the power, then check that the light doesn't work anymore, then turn off the light switch again in case anyone turns on the power at the meter box. Try to avoid touching the cables even if you're sure they're dead, but if you have to touch them , then touch them together with a screwdriver to make sure they're dead. Wear good rubber soled shoes and don't use a metal ladder if you can help it. Be careful that you don't put any screws through any cables.

You can never be too safe, and getting blasted with 240V isn't much fun.

I remember hearing a story (Not sure if it's true. Can't remember who told me.) about an old man who was found dead in his yard. They called it a heart attack. Some time later a small child died in the same place. They investigated it and found out that someone had put a roofing screw through a light cable and when the light was turned on, the whole roof and downpipes came alive. An ELCB would have prevented this happening and it's compulsory to install them in new homes now. It would be a wise investment for an older home as well.

[Metal Head]

Hi Bricks & John,

Thanx for your replies.

You were correct John in that I have finished the job and the wife likes it:D. I didn't need to put in an additional batten fortunately as there is no access to that part of the roof. We do have a safety switch as well as an over voltage arrestor in our main switch box so I think that as all corners covered. My boss was off most of last week as a result of a power surge at his house that has caused several thousands $$$ of damage the worst being it cooked the play station that as left the kids in a terrible mood for the remainder of the week. He is in the process now of having to track down receipts for damaged items as well as getting in contractors to fix and repaint the damaged areas. This may well have been avoided if he had installed the correct preventative devices in 20 years ago when he purchased the house:rolleyes:.

As you will see I have attached an image that is a cutting of a similair story to what you said John. I also rememeber one about a plumber who got electrocuted having cut out a section in a copper pipe (on the outside of the house) which included the earth stick (to the ground). So when he went to join the 2 pieces together he got zapped:(. However, these type of stories are no rare as years ago it was common to use the copper piping outside as a earth.

Being an electrician myself I don't take short cuts by working "live" and only use cordless equipment when going into walls, ceiling and the ground. As you say there are too many cowboys out there who put others lives in danger.

Regards
David

[Tools]

Hi Bricks & John,





Being an electrician myself I don't take short cuts by working "live" and only use cordless equipment when going into walls, ceiling and the ground. As you say there are too many cowboys out there who put others lives in danger.

Regards
David

I am confused...if you are an electrician, why did you have someone else install the light, and why are you asking the forum for advice ?

Tools

[Dan]

I am confused...if you are an electrician, why did you have someone else install the light, and why are you asking the forum for advice ?

Tools
You're not the only one.:?

[Metal Head]

I am confused...if you are an electrician, why did you have someone else install the light, and why are you asking the forum for advice ?

Tools

Because I'm not qualified as an "A" grade electrician.

[BryanMc]

Hi Metal head and others

I am a qualified 'A' grade sparky. If that wiring was existing the photo is legal. If it was a new run or relocated cable it is not.

Did you get a Certificate of electrical safety?

If so on the back should be a number you can ring to report faulty / illegal work.
Dont want to sound like a dobber but if the light fell out of the roof and hit you on the head like this:doh: , or wiring let go of light and then shorted out and caught fire then:(( . We need to get rid of poor quality tradesman like this as they give everyone a bad name.


Cheers and good electron delivery to you all.

Bryan

[Metal Head]

Hi Metal head and others

I am a qualified 'A' grade sparky. If that wiring was existing the photo is legal. If it was a new run or relocated cable it is not.

Did you get a Certificate of electrical safety?

If so on the back should be a number you can ring to report faulty / illegal work.
Dont want to sound like a dobber but if the light fell out of the roof and hit you on the head like this:doh: , or wiring let go of light and then shorted out and caught fire then:(( . We need to get rid of poor quality tradesman like this as they give everyone a bad name.

Cheers and good electron delivery to you all.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan for sharing your experience with us. Given that the electrician as put in 6 new GPO and 6 down lights (using new wiring) would that be sufficient for Harvey Norman to supply me with the certificate?. Other electrical work we have had done in the past (by other contractors) have given me a certificate. However, I don't know if HN take the responsibility in this case?. If not, I pressume I will have to get one off the plumber to?.

Regards
David

[bricks]

Yes David, plumbers should give certificates of compliance, that means the work is up to scratch and it has been recored properly.

[BryanMc]

[quote=Metal Head;461307]Thanks Bryan for sharing your experience with us. Given that the electrician as put in 6 new GPO and 6 down lights (using new wiring) would that be sufficient for Harvey Norman to supply me with the certificate?. Other electrical work we have had done in the past (by other contractors) have given me a certificate. However, I don't know if HN take the responsibility in this case?. If not, I pressume I will have to get one off the plumber to?.

Yep plumbers and electricians must give cert of safety / compliance for pretty much everything they do. In the case of electricians, as a general rule if they are doing any more than changing a light globe you should get a certificate. HN would probably not provide you with this, but their contractors should. If they were recommended by HN and especially if they were paid by HN you could expect that it would be HNs problem to chase certificates. If you paid the contractors yourself you should get in contact and demand a cert. After all thats what you paid for.

My 2 cents worth, as much as could be a whinge, could also save you a couple of hundred grand if your house burns down due to electrical or plumbing fault. If you might ask what are the chances of that, it has happened before and remember how lenient and understanding insurance companies are:D :p :(( ?

[Metal Head]

Thanks Bricks and Bryan for your replies. I will let you know how I go about obtaining them via HN, as you say Bryan best to be safe than sorry where insurance companies are involved:wink:.