Lending Tools

[Rossluck]

I lent my neighbour my laser level, and when he returned it he casually - almost jokingly - said: "By the way, you'll need a bit of glue to fix the clamp on the receiver. We busted it." Needless to say glue won't adequately fix a plastic clamp, so I have to order a new one. :~

Now I can handle the fact that it broke, as delicate tools in rough hands will, and I don't mind lending tools, but the casual "I broke it, you fix it" attitude is beyond my comprehension. If ever I borrow anything and it breaks, there's no way I'd take it back without having it repaired.

For some strange reason some people feel that you owe them something, and if they break something of yours, then it's just a partial payment of the debt, or something like that. Does anyone else come across this phenomenom?

[craigb]

I don't lend my tools.

[outback]

I am careful to whom I lend my tools. There are some people I'd lend anything, knowing if it did break, it was a genuine accident and not from abuse, and that it would be repaired or replaced most probably to a highere standard than when it left me.

Unfortunately I get caught occasionally, once per person seems to cure me.

[journeyman Mick]

There's a saying: "Never lend out your woman or your tools as you'll get them back f****d" :o

But my approach is similar to outback's, and yeah, once bitten, twice shy. If by chance someone returns something broken I politely tell them that I'll be having it repaired and sending them the bill.

Mick

[Doughboy]

Yeah well I have, as you probably know, lent most my tools to the old man.

SWMBO says I should not do such things because they go unappreciated, and when we ask for help it is seldom given. She has a point but I am a sucker.

Pete

[I_wanna_Shed]

:iagree: I'm like the above responses. I will only lend tools to people who I know very well, and people who I know will use the tool correctly and respect the tool! Nobody else need apply....

These same people have no issue lending me something of their's. I would never return an item that I broke to someone, I would never think about it!!!!! Unfortunately some people just don't give a sh*t. :~

Cheers,
Nathan.

[Gumby]

I don't lend my tools.

can i borrow a hammer ?

[craigb]

can i borrow a hammer ?

No! :D

[Rossluck]

I remember that I once borrowed some gear pullers from the same bloke and stripped a thread. I immediately told him that I'd replace them, and that the replacement ones would be good quality (unlike his, hence the stripped thread). I went to Repco rather than Super Cheap, and bought some damned good ones for him (still hurting :( ).

This, to me, is what you should do. I think it's OK to lend tools as long as the people you lend them to understand that they have to repair or replace them if they break them.

The big question here is: what is it in their stupid heads that prevents them from understanding what to most of us is common sense?

[Groggy]

I use the same philosophy my dad used. Only lend to those you trust or have seen their tools. If it is broken they replace it - not pay for it - replace it. Tell them about "the rules" before it goes in their hand.

Never borrow a tool from someone that you wouldn't lend a tool to. If he borrowed something it always went back in the same condition or better eg. sharper, cleaner or a minor repair done. If a tool is broken you replace it, no questions. If you are not willing to do that then buy or hire one.

I lent a chainsaw to Kiwibrucee the other day and was very pleased to see it come back clean and sharpened, he has the same philosophy.

[Groggy]

The big question here is: what is it in their stupid heads that prevents them from understanding what to most of us is common sense?They don't appreciate the tools the way you do, and they don't value your friendship, that's how I read it.

[Gumby]

I use the same philosophy my dad used. Only lend to those you trust or have seen their tools. If it is broken they replace it - not pay for it - replace it. Tell them about "the rules" before it goes in their hand.

Never borrow a tool from someone that you wouldn't lend a tool to. If he borrowed something it always went back in the same condition or better eg. sharper, cleaner or a minor repair done. If a tool is broken you replace it, no questions. If you are not willing to do that then buy or hire one.

I lent a chainsaw to Kiwibrucee the other day and was very pleased to see it come back clean and sharpened, he has the same philosophy.

can I borrow a hammer ?

[dai sensei]

I have learnt the hard way not to lend tools. I remember I lent my chainsaw to someone once, he used it to cut the roots off a tree he was trying to pull out of the ground, but he didn't even dig around them :~ . Just cut through the roots, dirt and all :o :doh: .


Nowadays I offer to do the job for them, using my tools.

[Groggy]

can I borrow a hammer ?Sure, come and get it!

[RufflyRustic]

The big question here is: what is it in their stupid heads that prevents them from understanding what to most of us is common sense?

I find it's "the mate has the tool that I need, I'm too stingy to go and buy it, or I only need it for the one job so it's not worth buying one and if I did buy one, why the heck should I pay $$$ for a good one for one job. Besides, the mate has the tool, and the money, he can afford to replace it if I stuff it - ultimately, he doesn't give a damm, doesn't respect you and is out for what he can get for free"

Generally speaking of course.


I won't loan my tools to my own Mum,:no: let alone anyone else. And HWMNBO knows he'll be in deep $%&# if he doesn't give my tools back, let alone break them. It's a very rare occasion I ever borrow any tools.

Cheers
Wendy

[Bleedin Thumb]

Tools, money not my wife. If some one asks me I will usually say yes. If they abuse the privilege well that's their bad Karma and I won't offer again.....and being very judgmental I find that I will write that person off as not being worth my time.

That probably sound harsh but there you go, I'm deeply flawed.:-

Its the ones (tools etc) that don't come back which are annoying.
You go to use something, can't find it and realise "hey I lent that to someone" but can't remember who it was. I dont even get the satisfaction of feeling sanctimonious.:(

[ozwinner]

I dont lend tools full stop.
If I can do the job for them I will, rather than lend my tools.

Al :)

[Stuart]

Thought that was a direct violation of the woodies code (lending tools that is)?

[Gumby]

I dont lend tools full stop.
If I can do the job for them I will, rather than lend my tools.

Al :)

could you come around and knock a nail in for me please ?

[Master Splinter]

I only lend tools that I consider consumables - such as my collection of cheap 'there could be a nail in this bit of wood' chisels or tools that are on the 'gee I would like an excuse to buy a better one, I hope this one breaks soon' list.

[Metal Head]

I once lent my circular wood saw to a good friend for cutting up some pine wood. On it's return I just took it home and put it back in the cupboard. Then a few days later when I needed to use it, I noticed it was not cutting so well - most the teeth were either chipped or had broken off :((.

A few weeks later this friend was back on the scrounge but told her that she would need either an angle grinder or a bandsaw to cut through the nails this time.

[Corunetes]

There's one thing about lending your tools to a person........... The return will tell you more about that particular person than you would learn in a long time!:o

[nettlewarbler]

mornin all , why not break summit of his , like his skull with a nice long piece of 4" x 2" . that might be a good remedy next time he'll be busting someone else's gear .:U

[tameriska]

I suppose that at least you got it back, although that is not the point.

I will only ever lend anything to anyone if I really trust them to do the right thing.

I will NOT lend any of my fathers tools.

When it comes down to it, if they really need the tool, kmart, cheap as chips have enough stuff good enough to do one or two jobs.

[savage]

Boy I have to agree with everyone, as if, IF!, I decide to loan a tool, I make sure they know in advance that if it taken by them they will "Bring it back on completion of said job it was borroed for", and "Not keep it for another job next week" . If they want it for 2 weeks say so, also if I have to come and get it, don't bother asking again!

You break it, you just bought me a new tool and inherited a broken one!

I would sooner do the job for them, than risk my tools, some may not be the best quality but they are the only one's I have and could afford at the time, some of them are quality and I could not afford to replace them.

[Carpenter]

This is how it usually goes; The idea is verbalised by the potential borrower, no words are spoken but I use a special stare, & thats the last time its ever spoken of! My tools are always in pristine condition, so the best they could ever be returned to me is how they left, but past experience proves that few people share my standards & they returned in a state of lesser condition. NO. Never. F#%k off & buy your own.

[johnc]

Generally I don't loan out tools, the people that seem to want to borrow are often the ones that don't have a clue and that leads to one outcome. However I do have a few old bits and pieces that seem to cover the rare request for a chisel, screwdriver etc, and if they come back damaged or not at all I don't care.

John.

[pawnhead]

I wouldn't trust myself with someone else's tools considering the hiding I give my own. Some people are just too fanatical about their tools though. They're made to do a job and I don't care how pretty they look. If a tool of mine falls apart because someone has dropped it from a roof, then I'll duck tape/pop rivet/bolt it back together and he can buy me a beer for my trouble. If that doesn't work, it goes in the bin and he can get me another one. If he doesn't get me another one then I won't cry over it, but he won't get another chance, and he won't get a beer off me when it's my shout.

When I started in the game I used to be so proud of my tools and the condition they were in, but now if I saw two tradesmen, one with immaculately maintained tools, and one with beaten up/home modified tools, I know who I'd hire. It wouldn't be the Nancy boy who farts around all day instead of getting stuck into the job.

Your tools are meant to be beaten up, and if you don't like it, then don't lend them to anyone.

[Honorary Bloke]

I believe this falls under para. 6.4.2 of the Code if widely interpreted. Mayhap Driver will want to expand this para. to include these circs. :((

I'm like most of youse, I don't lend good tools to anyone, but will lend commodity tools, such as screwdrivers, cheapo chisels, etc. I fear that my expectations from my fellow man are a bit low. :(

Yes, Gumby, you can have the lend of a hammer. Where do you want it posted? And when can I expect it to be returned? :D

[journeyman Mick]

I dont lend tools full stop.
If I can do the job for them I will, rather than lend my tools.

Al :)


Al,
I was going to ask if I could borrow your mixer, shovel, laser level, barrow, mud boards, trowels, string lines and 1200 level, but could you just come and build this retaining wall for me instead?:D

Mick

[Bleedin Thumb]

There's one thing about lending your tools to a person........... The return will tell you more about that particular person than you would learn in a long time!:o


yep thats my philosophy as well, the loss or damage or even non return of a tool is a very cheap way of determining a persons worth.

So I happily lend with the " its a boomerang" line and wait and see.

It's rare but rewarding when you find people that have the same values as yourself about returning on time and in same nick, but to be truthful if they had the same values as me they wouldn't dream of borrowing another persons tools unless it was an emergency.

[ptc]

It applies to books as well. No!

[outback]

Geez , you feelin' OK, ya scared me. :o

[AlexS]

"The idiot who will let you borrow his tools is out of the workshop at the moment."

-sign in mechanic's workshop in Rosedale, Vic.

[Driver]

I believe this falls under para. 6.4.2 of the Code if widely interpreted. Mayhap Driver will want to expand this para. to include these circs. :((


Bob

I'll give this a bit of thought. It certainly needs to be covered by the Code.

Speaking personally, I would never lend my tools to anyone in whom I didn't have complete confidence that they would return them on time and in the same condition as they were when they left my care. In practical terms, that is a very small list, presently comprising one person - and he is a direct descendant of your present correspondent. :wink:

Col

[Carpenter]

When I started in the game I used to be so proud of my tools and the condition they were in, but now if I saw two tradesmen, one with immaculately maintained tools, and one with beaten up/home modified tools, I know who I'd hire. It wouldn't be the Nancy boy who farts around all day instead of getting stuck into the job.

Your tools are meant to be beaten up, and if you don't like it, then don't lend them to anyone.

I look after my tools, so it seems that must make me a nancy boy!:q Personally, I've noticed the smart builders disregard the chest beating & utilize the variety of skills & abilities to their benefit. Some blokes are good at the fast major construction parts, & others are better at the detail work. Thats why the Yanks have framing & finish carpenters as almost separate trades. As for the "tools meant to be beaten up",:o I don't find it much trouble to use & handle them correctly in a way that keeps them in good condition. If you give the OK to treat them bad, thats what happens, & I cant see how that gets the job done any quicker. Finally, tools in Oz are pretty expensive, so unless your packing a truck load of low quality crap (in which case it doesn't matter) I buy well once & look after it. This way, I'm not replacing stuff every year & I can get ahead & build up a more comprehensive kit.:2tsup:

[Driver]

At the suggestion of our septic mate: Honorary Bloke, the Drafting Committe (of which said HB is now a member, incidentally) has added a new section to The Code, as follows:-


6.5. Borrowing and lending tools – a touchy subject.

Important note: on the subject of lending and borrowing tools, please note that whether or not a bloke is prepared to lend his tools it is entirely his prerogative to determine. Whether or not he is prepared to lend you his tools may depend upon how well you understand and follow these guidelines.

Further important note: The preceding paragraph was, in all previous editions of The Code, the only passage that dealt with the subject of the borrowing and lending of tools. However, there has recently arisen some controversy on this subject and The Code’s Drafting Committee considers that the issues raised merit inclusion in The Code so as to provide some guidance for blokes in what can be a difficult area.

6.5.1. A bloke shall never ask another bloke for a loan of a tool or tools.

6.5.2. On the other hand, a bloke may choose to offer to loan another bloke a tool or tools.

Note the crucial difference. It marks the yawning gulf between unblokeliness and generosity of spirit.

6.5.3. If a bloke accepts the generous offer of the loan of another bloke’s tool, the receiving bloke (the loanee) shall treat the loaned tool with enormous respect, shall handle it with an excess of care and attention and shall return it to the owner (the loaner) in a condition at least equal to that in which the tool was loaned.

Note: In these circumstances, it is recommended that the loanee enquire of the loaner at the time that he accepts the loaned tool whether he, the loanee, should sharpen, hone or add protective and/or anti-corrosive substances to the loaned tool prior to returning it. This is important. The loaner may wish to do any or all of the above himself. It would be presumptuous (not to mention unblokely) of the loanee to carry out such work on the loaned tool without permission.

6.5.4. If a bloke accepts the loan of a tool generously offered and, in the course of using said loaned tool, he should break or damage it, he (the loanee) shall replace the loaned tool with an equivalent or better tool at his own cost. Not to do so shall be a serious Code violation, leading to immediate loss of blokely status.

6.5.5. If a bloke, possessed of a spirit of generosity, should loan a tool to someone else and should receive that tool back in broken or otherwise damaged condition – without any offer from the loanee to replace, repair or offer appropriate restitution, the loaner shall:

6.5.5.1. know never to loan a tool to this person again,
6.5.5.2. know, also, that this person is not a bloke; he is not even a chap; he is, in fact, lower than a snake’s belly and a very poor specimen of humanity.

6.5.6. As a general guide, if a bloke is contemplating loaning a tool or tools to another bloke, he should first have a good look at the other bloke’s own tools. Their condition will provide a clue as to how well the potential loanee is likely to treat the potential loaner’s tool(s).

6.5.7. As stated, this whole subject is touchy. A useful solution to the potential problems that can arise when a bloke is concerned about the probity of another bloke’s attitude towards tools is – instead of loaning tools when asked - to offer to carry out the work for which the tool is requested.

This new section is now included in the updated issue of The Code, to be posted today in the following thread:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=33205&page=11

[pawnhead]

Yes, I should have qualified my words a bit better. It's just that I've met carpenters in the past that are incredibly fanatical about their tools, and the sharpness of their edges. They are usually the ones that spend all day getting every little detail of their work perfect instead of getting a decent days work done. Of course there's a difference between framing and finishing, but some blokes treat a frame as if it's a Mona Lisa. A half blunt chisel or saw blade will probably still cut through a 4X2 quicker than spending half your time on a grind stone.
As for tool quality, of course there's tools and there's tools. I've found that a small $20 hammer drill/screwdriver will last almost as long as one I've paid $200 for. I reckon a $20 chisel would last me a lifetime if I don't break it whilst using it as a lever. I've only broken one that way so far, but the time I've saved in mucking around going to the truck to get a pinch bar would have made up for it.
I certainly wouldn't pay $300 for a Japanese chisel no matter how long it keeps an edge. It's no problem whipping out my belt sander and putting an edge on my $20 job, and if I'm doing detailed work then I might use my oil stone to hone it as well. If I'm doing framing then I wouldn't bother with a stone. It's just a waste of time since I might end up driving it into an unseen nail.

[craigb]

Col,

May I offer my congratulations to you and the rest of the drafting commitee?

As usual, a most comprehesive update to The Code.

Well done!

:D

[Carpenter]

I know what your saying John. I'm a bit particular myself (the misus calls me Mr Meticulous) & I recon on of the hardest things I had to learn in the trade was how to best use my particular skillset to my advantage. It all fell into place when a bloke said to me one day "quality is a variable thing", meaning the tolerance for inaccuracy can vary depending on what your doing. I had to fight the urge to make everything perfect, because it was a liability. Now, when the time is right I can bodge it with the best of them, but I can always call upon the finer skills I'm more comfortable with when the nature of the task dictates. As you say, its the same thing with the tools. No point having the razor sharp chisel in the tool pouch if your doing lots of framing. I have a set of razor sharp chisels for good work, but only because after 25yrs I've finally worked out how to get that edge very easily, & they're nice to use. I don't sharpen my stuff on the job, it's done at home after hours.

[John Saxton]

Way back then ..around 25 years ago I made the decision to lend a mate a 7.1/4" Skilsaw for his pergola he was building outta heavy Jarrah.
The saw was relatively new and then I saw no problem with the lending of it as he is an honourable bloke who does do the right thing by folk,the saw motor was consequently burn't out with him obviously trying to force the cut and not paying attention to the blade which had dulled after a lot of work.:(

He notably replaced the saw (which I still have)with profuse apologies about his lack of attenion to working the saw,together with the financial pain of a scotsmans purse he then had to endure.

I said to myself that from that moment on I would never lend tools so that no-one person would find themselves in an embarrassing situation with the necessity of having to replace a borrowed tool.:B

Money was tight for him then (not only was he a scotsman but he was also building a new home) but I guess the lesson he took from that which he later told me was that if he had of gone out and bought a saw for himself he would'nt have been in the situation he found himself in.

As the moral is wont to quote "Never a lender or a Borrower be"

Cheers:)

[journeyman Mick]

..................As the moral is wont to quote "Never a lender or a Borrower be"................


Shakespeare actually, can't remember which play though.:-

Mick

[Bleedin Thumb]

Merchant of Venice I would guess

[Driver]

Shakespeare actually, can't remember which play though.:-

Mick

At the risk of being a smartarse, it's Hamlet. Polonius' advice to his son Laertes. OK, so I'm a smartarse. (Spent 2 whole years of English Lit. at high school studying Hamlet. It tends to stick :rolleyes: ).

[Bleedin Thumb]

Mate it obviously didn't stick to me.:D

[Driver]

Mate, just be grateful that you're not having to study the current syllabus. The kids who are studying at high school now get to de-construct TV ads and the sleeve notes on CDs. The poor buggers wouldn't have a clue who Shakespeare is, let alone know that he wrote Hamlet, The Merchant of Venice etc. We might have found it hard going at times (I know I did) but at least we have a clue where phrases like "Neither a borrower nor a lender be" come from.

I read an article the other day where someone commented that newspaper sub-editors tend to fall back on Shakespeare when composing headlines. He came up with a list of about 20 from the previous week's papers that were all derived from good ol' Bill. Things like: "To Vote Or Not To Vote"; "Into the Britches, Dear Friends" etc.

[craigb]

"Into the Britches, Dear Friends" etc.

Staines refering to The Mother Farquar?

[AlexS]

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be"...

...for a loan oft' loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

Sounds like an early draft of the code.

[rona]

From the very first day I was an apprentice I had it drummed into me that you always buy good tools NOT cheap ones and you do no loan your tool s to anyone!. I have followed this philosophy most of my life, I only loan to very, very close friends and I never borrow tools myself, no mater what the job is, if I haven't got the right tool I go buy it. Got caught about two months ago, mate borrowed MIG welder for a ten minute job, I didn't hesitate as I new everything would be fine, however when he returned it that afternoon he knocked on the back door and the daughter was in the shower, five minutes later when she came out she noticed the welder so thought she would put it into the shed, however in the crutial five minutes of coming and going the family pet rabbit got to the main welding cable and chewed it through..........
$200.00 later we had a new cable.
Cheers,
Ron.

[Driver]

Staines refering to The Mother Farquar?

Nah, that would be "Into the pantaloons, shipmates! Yo Ho! Yo Ho!"

Not very Shakespearean, really. :wink:

[Driver]

...for a loan oft' loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

Sounds like an early draft of the code.

True .... which only goes to show that the Bard must have been a good bloke!:D

[Honorary Bloke]

Driver, a splendid job as usual. :2tsup: :2tsup:

It is incumbent upon all of us to recognise that the Code is an important and dynamic document. We are fortunate to have amongst us blokes who understand this and work to expand the scope of the Code at appropriate opportunities.

Or, to put it another way, Onya! :D

[joe greiner]

"The idiot who will let you borrow his tools is out of the workshop at the moment."

-sign in mechanic's workshop in Rosedale, Vic.

My gramp's version was "The man who lends tools is out." (Also means out of tools.)

Joe