2 Pac Modern Day Moral Dilemma

[gthome]

Hi All

I have been inspired by some of the finishes being achieved by WW in this site and would like to try to acheive them myself. I have spent heaps of time reading many of the posts and am left with the following dilemma and/or query.

Issue: I want to spray kitchen doors / sides with 2 pac.

Assuming that;

a) I have appropriate spray mask
b) I DO NOT not have a spray booth
c) I live on reasonable size block in the burbs
d) I can rig shed to make it reasonably dust free

Is it OK to spray 2 pac in ones back yard shed. Specifically, does this pose any issue re neighbor's that live within 50 meters given that isocyanate seems to be quite nasty.

Surely I am not the only one to grapple with this modern morale dilemma ?

[Daddles]

I painted me boat on the back lawn - two pack poly. Not only are the noisy beggars still alive but they're madder than ever ... hang on, maybe I shouldn't have ...

I don't think you've got a problem

Richard

[Master Splinter]

It depends.

Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead.

There's at least one government health site with a piece on "Preventing asthma and death from isocyanates".

Or you might just get flu like symptoms that last for months and months. 2 pack paints are the largest cause of occupational asthma (source) (http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=237453&NewsAreaID=2).

And another (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/asthma.html). And one more (http://www.sp2.org/newsletters/sp2vol1iss8/sp2vol1iss8topic.php). That covers the US and the UK .

Here's a quote from the Brindabella Motor Sport Club (http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallying-technical/7381-iso-cyanate-free-two.html) forum
"I've painted before with Isocyanate based 2pac. Once I used a cheap face mask instead of borrowing a breathing app from a mate. Should have seen the look on my face when I started passing blood the next morning. Strange pains and aches for weeks after that. Never again."
The recomendation is a full-face positive pressure airline respirator in a spray booth.

The 'toxic' level for isocyanate exposure is below the level where you can smell the stuff, so you don't even know you are breathing it in.

[gthome]

MasterSplinter

Thanks for that. I guess deep down I knew most of that which is why I put my query into the forum. I keep viewing everyones finishing results and cannot believe that they all have booths / air assisted breathing apparatuses and am wondering how they do it ?

I am probably jealous I guess that I will not be able to achieve the finish that I am looking for.

Cheers

GT

[journeyman Mick]

It depends.

Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead. ............................

:D :D That's the funniest thing I've read today:2tsup: Hope it was intentional:wink:

Mick

[Master Splinter]

You won't really get the full benefits of 2 pack (I'm assuming automotive 2 pack here) without a spray booth and baking oven, anyway. You'll still end up sanding insect legs out of the paint (for some reason insects seem to be attracted to fresh paint) no matter what you use.

The primary benefit of 2 pack is that it gives a high gloss off the gun (assuming you know how to spray in the first place) and its tougher and more durable.

It's not an easier to apply coating than acrylic or other enamels - it's something that works better in a production setting; it can be processed faster, that's all.

Remember that 'tougher and more durable' relate to all day sun exposure, rain, hail, industrial polution, bird poo and all that. Unless you have a really unusual kitchen, your cupboards aren't going to get that sort of treatment. You'll be sick of the colour long before the paint becomes unserviceable.

A quick dry enamel or an acrylic lacquer will still give a good finish - typically a quick buff with polishing compound will bring up a high gloss...and unless you have had experience with spraypainting, you'll need to do that with your 2 pack as well.

K&H and HiCem both make an iso-free 2 pack, but I haven't tried them yet.

I've had good experiences using quick dry enamel - but 90% of the success is in how well you prepare the surface.

[MikeK]

Alternatively, get someone in the trade to spray it for you (there are plenty out there). I'm buildig some kitchen cupboards and that's what I'm going to do.

Regards,
Mike.

[gthome]

Ok

Have now given up on 2 packs containing isocyanates. I have done a bit of research and have identified a product called Acrathane. It is described by its makers as a 2 pack high gloss catalyzed acrylic, easy to use, hard wearing and isocyanates free. This seems to tick all of my boxes

My question: Has anyone used this product in a kitchen / bathroom cabinet environment and what were the results like ?

[Pulse]

I've used Mirotone Acid Catalysed coating called Mirobild for my kitchen, Great finish for a backyard job. Try the web.

Cheers
Pulse

[Chris Parks]

I have been led to believe that another large problem with 2 pack is the stuff is absorbed through the skin and eyes. My mate who teaches spray painting absoulutely refuses to use it under any circumstances.

[MurrayD99]

Ok

Have now given up on 2 packs containing isocyanates.


That is the conclusion I came to also... The data sheets gave me the heebie jeebies. However, I'm told 2-pack is the only gin-proof surface, if that is an issue.

[simso]

It depends.



Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead.
.

Jesus mate what a scare monger you are, this is the problem with un-educated people quoting lack of knowledge. There is one recorded death from the use of 2 pack poly paint in the last 40 years, and that case is well documented. Professional painter after 20 years of spraying this stuff not wearing a face mask of any type contracted painters asthma. He was advised not to paint and to give it away from his doctor and he continued to paint for an additional 5 years before he had a severe case of asthma which resulted in his death. Get your facts right before you start quoting scare monger stuff. You can contract an accute sensitivity to the product but thats like everything else including "peanuts". That being said if you use common sense when painting wear a respirator with an organic filter, you wont have any severe issues. Its like saying dont use drills because people can kill themselves with it ect. Isocyanates are dangerous especially for fibreglassers and foam manufacturers as there are high levels used to cure the products. Yes your body does absorb through the eyes and the skin but common sense prevails. Go to a spray painting shop and have a look around, there are numerous surveys done around the world and one thing they found common was that among all the people in a workshop thast were tested the painter had the least concentration within his body, thats because he uses common sense.
Everyone knows radiation is bad for you, chenobyl xray machines ect, so should we never venture outside into the sun because where going to be exposed to radiation from the sun. Stop the scare tactics if you dont know what your talking about
Steve

[Harry72]

True words, the risk is there but proper precautions make it safe... read just about any safety data sheet and it will scare you off any product

[durwood]

If you own a motor vehicle and it gets damaged today its a 99% chance it will be repaired with 2 pack urethane enamel. Its the trade standard and better than the previous used acrylic lacquer.


If a paint is enamel it means you will get a gloss off the gun, so its sprayed on wet and glossy as is normal air dry enamel ( house hold enamel) but as you want a gloss surface you have to spray it correctly or you mess the end result. So as has been mentioned you need to know how to spray properly and use the correct gun with paint thinned correctly.

Good repaireres have booths and proper air fed hoods but a good proportion of smaller shops don't have any where near the maximum equipment.

If you use a good quality mask with filters designed for the paint and proper clothing (long sleeeved overalls) and don't spray in an enclosed area ( in otherwords have ventilation) you won't have a problem.

The trade painters often paint in shorts and thongs, even though they are not supposed to and seem to get away with it. Stupid practice but when you are young you think you are invincible.

The dangers of 2 pack are there, but you would have to be extremely sensitive to the chemical and then dose yourself greatly to get a reaction. People who are likely to turn ashmatic would be advised to be careful or avoid it all together.

I would dispute master splinters statement that it is not as easy to apply as lacquer or enamel, It is not only easy will you do the job faster you and will get a better result than using the other two paints.

The advantage of 2 pack is

*It sets up hard and can not be softened with solvent

* It doesnt need to be rubbed back and polished. It dries shinier than paint that is polished ( you would have fine marks from the compound, polish or the rag which wiped it) BUT if you spray it badly it can be polished to a shine just as good as any other paint

It can be repaired ( you can paint a small area on a large area) invisibly.
Normal enamel can't be compounded or repaired anywhere as easily ( you have to do whole panels. Acrylic lacquer can be repaired.

*Its the preferred paint on motor vehicles as it equals baked enamel in performance (no others do)

*Its able to be forced dry by heating which cuts the drying time down to minutes instead of hours. You can also speed up the drying by using a hardener which reduces the drying time even further. In calm conditions you can avoid problems with contaminations if you have bugs then you do have a problem.

MIni, if your friend teaches spray painting his students use 2 pack 90% of the time in their course, so even though he might not actually use it its being used at the tech college every day. There hasn't been a student lost (Killed by it) since its introduction to the industry over 30 years ago. Though occasionally so get a reaction( usually because of miss use.)

Finally there are numerous documented cases of death from using this paint. The current laws governing its use in NSW came about from two cases at the Nowra RAAF base in the early 1980's when painters in the airforce died when using 2 pack on aircarft. It made the front page of the Telegraph when the case came to the courts. My boss also died from its use ( the government would not initially allow purchase of suitable masks for students or teachers, but they did when his widow took the to court.


You can find numerous other cases, usually its found the correct proceedures have not been followed. Often its because the painter has not used a mask or has locked himself in a workshop while using or waiting for the paint to dry without ventilation. If it wasn't possible to use it reasonably easily it wouldn't be on the market.

[Toolin Around]

If you don't get the surface absolutely perfect 2 pac looks like crap and attempting that in a back yard shed would be next to impossible. The guy that does our stuff has a very expensive heated down draft spray booth and still doesn't always get it right. I'm not much into that sort of finishing but I think you need the place to be heated for 2 pac don't you.

[simso]

I spray 2 pack every day in my job, my dad was a painter in the RAAF for 30 years and he painted 2 pack every day, my friends own spray painting shops as well. People with forced ventilation heated booths usually only have them as part of a contract for car yards ect. Most paint shops dont have heated booths. Yes they have a spray booth but only to minimise the dust. Most booths that I have worked in the paintwork comes out average little bits of dust ect but thats life, thats the beauty of two pack paint you block it down and buff it up. In a heated booth you can cure primer and topcoats in 18minutes each ready to be sanded back for the next stage. Non heated booths usually just wheel the car out in the sun for a couple of hours between other jobs. Ive never to this day seen a person wear a full hooded respirator yet when painting a car, that doesnt mean they dont use them just I havent seen them in the average paint shops. Personally I reckon they would you off to wear as your moving around the car.
Steve

[anthony18ft]

im new to this and i wanna make my own thread how do i do it?

[Harry72]

Ant18' Go back one page from this page and near the top there's a button like this one :aro-r: http://www.woodworkforums.com/images/buttons/newthread.gif

[Master Splinter]

Since some seem to find anecdotal arguments preferable:

http://www.cozybuilders.org/newsletters/news_83.pdf (http://www.cozybuilders.org/newsletters/news_83.pdf) (see pg 7)

http://freespace.virgin.net/tommy.sandham/twopack.htm

http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Tools/Respirators/Respirators.html

http://www.ecboards.co.uk/board_chapters/public/chapter12.htm (http://www.ecboards.co.uk/board_chapters/public/chapter12.htm)

and of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_Disaster


And from the 3M site (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/%21ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYt3d9KP0I8yizeINzKw0C_IcFQEADrlaYM%21) - FAQ's about their filters:

Can I use organic vapour filters with isocyanate based compounds?
A.
The levels at which isocyanate can be detected by smell or taste are considerably higher than the Maximum Exposure Limit (MEL) as set by the HSE. There would be no indication of smell/taste that 'breakthrough' had occurred until an exposure higher than the MEL.

The safe solution would be to use an air fed system which supplies breathable quality air to the wearer rather than filtering out airborne contaminants. The 3M™ Visionair or S-200 Air Fed Systems could be considered for this type of application .


And for the stats lovers (http://www.anchem.su.se/isocyanate2000/abstracts/Iso2000abstracts.pdf) (PDF file): (emphasis mine)

"Diisocyanate-induced asthma is one of the commonest causes of occupational asthma in many industrial countries. Several follow-up studies, included our own, have demonstrated that symptoms are very persistent for years and may well be permanent.

A small proportion only gets rid of their asthma symptoms. Unspecific bronchial hyperresponsiveness may for years affect normal life and the patients are dependent of occasional or regular medication. Thus, the disease as well as the medical prognosis, indeed, affect the patient in many ways as to some extent elucidated by our study.

For 17% of the patients, the diagnosis caused retirement from working life, 43 % of those who had got the disase considered it to be the direct cause for being outside working life at the time of follow-up.

Only about half of the diseased workers were still working at the time of follow-up. Diisocyanate-induced asthma means almost always a change of employment; only 13% of those who contracted disease were still employed by the same employer.

In conclusion, contracting diisocyanate asthma involves a series of health effects which has far reaching repurcussions not only on the patients health but also on his or her socioeconomic life."

[simso]

Been busy master splinter. Still couldn’t find anything amongst all those links that backed up the scare monger statement you made youll go to sleep and not wake up the next day. That was the basis of my reply about uneducated people giving advice. Painting 2 pack is as Ive mentioned before, not as dangerous as you make it out to be, its like evrything else we have today, just use some common sense when mixing and spraying, like wear a respirator with organic filters.
Regarding your links you could have found something better than those,
First cozybuilders view of poly paints in there local newsletter, "MMscientific"
Second a guy restoring his cortina and his view "outstanding"
Third Engineer from sikorsky and his view on airborne contaminants "relevance"
Fourth a guys guide to painting his surfboard "come on now you can do better than this"
Fifth Wikipedia link to a chemical explosion "like what the"
Sixth 3m's site recommendations for what respirators they sell and recommend
And last a Speech given regarding the toxicidy of Icocyantes "which I dont argue with" they are in large amounts bad for you. But even in this long winded speech he saids the solvents added are of a greater risk with painting

The internet is a wonderful thing you can find out statistics on anything, I thought you might be intersetd in the following links.
Be warned one touch of this and you could die ie ie ie ie ie (trying for suspense here people)
Peanuts ahhhhhhhhh they’ll kill ya<O:p
<O:p</O:p

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/peanut_allergy_051125/20051125?hub=Canada (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/peanut_allergy_051125/20051125?hub=Canada)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://allergy.health.ivillage.com/foodallergyintolerance/peanutallergies5.cfm (http://allergy.health.ivillage.com/foodallergyintolerance/peanutallergies5.cfm)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/05/18/peanut.allergies/ (http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/05/18/peanut.allergies/)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/29/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main1081250.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/29/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main1081250.shtml)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.allerg.qc.ca/peanutallergy.htm (http://www.allerg.qc.ca/peanutallergy.htm)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

Maybe I might on the follow up links go with smoking or maybe phone cancers or tomatoes being a poison ect <O:p
<O:p</O:p
Wow didnt know they were that dangerous. Master splinter should I put on a full body suit with breathing gear before I go into a supermarket so that way I don’t breathe the nut vapours. <O:p></O:p>
Okay that’s enough being a smart ass on my behalf, Ill let it go now. Sorry for hijacking your thread gthome and being sarcastic.Go ahead and paint at home just use common sense wear a respirator, as far as the neighbours are concerned it would have well and truly dispersed by the time it gets there. For info paint shops which utilise 2 pack paints are regulated by the epa only when they use a minimum quatity of paint, I think its about 1200 litres per year before they are subject to being audited and even then its still self regulated. What filters do paint shops use to filter the isocyanates out prior to the paint leaving the booth, none, they use a bulk filter for the collection of the colour, but the isocyanates are dispersed into the air supply above the roof and travel with the breeze.
Steve

[AJcairns]

Simso
have you ever had a blood test to find what the levels of isocyanate are in your body???
I have and i know what mine are, they never go away out of your body you can not get rid of them.
As for deaths they may not all be documented but i know of people who have died from it yes in QLD. best you check your state laws regarding spray painting in general.
Most states have some very strict rules regarding it and some pretty heavy duty fines.
I have worked in and managed panel shops over the last 30 years and have been to paint manufacture schools who give you the truths about isocyanate and what it will do to you.

glad to join this debate

AJ

[simso]

Hey look, not trying to disagree that 2 pack is not the best for you, but I just get sick of people who dont have a clue jumping on the its so dangerous bandwagon and then throwing a bit more far fetch stuff of there own, like use it for the first time and you may not wake up tommorrow youll be dead. Im simply trying to point out that there are a hell of a lot more things out there that are in fact more dangerous than 2 pak paint and there are somethings if you touch today you could be dead tommorrow eg nuts " I know bad sense of humour". But that being said I would never paint or mix without a respirator on and gloves. Most people that I know only have high readings by handling the hardener with there bare hands. Hello, common sense. Here in WA the epa regualtes only via your annual usage, and like I said before I think it was something like 1200 litres here. As far as government minimum levels well thats a crock, thats just a pluck out of there but and see if its okay, not based on anything, and time has proven that with every product out there from x-rays to asbestos. Isocyanates are bad for you and surveys prove that " I agree one hundred percent" , but if you read the documentation that goes along with all the surveys, youll find there talking in general about the foam industry.Okay enough Ill let this go now, Ive had my blip and got it off my chest.
Steve

[Master Splinter]

The majority of those links are there to provide anecdotal "it's nasty" evidence for those who think that the 'official' precautions (of wearing protective gear) are all part of the international health and safety conspiracy to spoil all our fun and keep the good stuff away from us and make us a nation of big wooses. (woozes? woozzes?).

To quote from the first link (which referenced a DuPont safety bulletin):

"The safety column cited several deaths of people who chose to disregard this warning. The truly insidious part was that many people get away with spraying several projects with no apparent effect. Then, like in the case above, the person literally drops dead in the middle of spraying."

The 'explosion' link - is about the release of isocyanate gas after a tank rupture (explosion) in Bhopal, India. Initial death toll from isocyanate gas exposure was estimated at 3,000 (within 72 hours), and 15,000 have died from related illness since then. Harmless stuff indeed. I think an explosion in a peanut factory would need considerable assistance to equal that.

Many people can use isocyanate paints with no apparent ill effect; however some individuals can have rapid and severe reactions on exposure. You are highly unlikely to find individuals with severe reactions still working in the spray industry; so looking at what 'people in the industry do' has already biased your sample towards individuals with higher tolerances.

When I was undertaking a spraypainting course (Canberra TAFE, about ten years ago) the instructors there were quite clear that isocyanate containing paints must only be sprayed while wearing a supplied air mask.

But hey, we'll ignore their advice as they are part of the international health conspiracy, and (obviously) receive bribes from the neafarious personal protective device industry...an industry that only exists because of the massive profits to be made from selling filter cannisters at $20 retail. I mean, your average backyarder might buy two, or even four in a year - think of the profits!!!! And wow - if you can sell trade users a $500 supplied air mask that will only last them two or three years - that's profits that make an office chair supplier green with envy!!! /sarcasm off.

My main concern (from the point of view of backyard users) is that isocyanate is an invisible hazzard; if you can smell the stuff, you are already at dangerous exposure levels.

Think of it like using a table saw in the dark and not worrying where your fingers are 'because what you can't see can't hurt you'. You might get away with it. Or not.

Personally, I'm quite happy to fiddle around with all manner of nasty chemicals - I've been known to clean saucepans with boiling caustic soda, I use hydrochloric acid for stripping rust, I pour fuming sulphuric acid onto sugar just to watch the decomposition reaction...but these chemicals don't hide their risks.

Splash hydrochloric acid on yourself and you know about it pretty much right away; but that doesn't hold true for isocyanates - you can blissfully breathe them in through that $5.95 'Ma d e iN CH ina SoutIble foR Pain ting' respirator from the local el cheapo discount store and think you are totally safe and doing the right thing.

That's why I'm not keen on suggesting their use in a backyard situation.

[simso]

Ahhh ha, didnt disagree isocyanate is bad for you, disagreed that youll use 2 pack paint for the first time and be dead tommorrow as per your statement. In high concentrations isocyanate "a very small component of 2 pack paint" has been proven beyond a doubt as a killer, in low doses eg painting the worst thats happened so far is painters asthma. Or an allergic reaction called acute sensitivity. And were not going on the fairy tales out there, my mate dropped dead in the middle of a paint job ect, if this was fact then everyone would have heard of it.
Heres a comparison for you, Did you know that a dose of 2 sievets (measurement of radiation) is enough to make your intestines bleed out white blood cells die ect, and you wither and die over approx 2 week period, but a dose of 25 microsievets is the legal amount you can be exposed to by law, because theres an assumption that your body can recover from exposure, when you stand in the sun and on the planet earth you get a dose of radiation of about 3 microsievets but when you fly at 30,000 ft the pilot gets a dose of approx 30 microsievets. So on this example alone do we ban flying because it exceeds your legal exposure or because we know a large exposure will kill us, when you get an xray done at the hospital it ranges from 5 microsievets all the way up to 465 microsievets, do we stop and say no thanks I heard radiation kills people so I dont want to know whats wrong with me. This is the same with everything in life in large doses most things will kill us in small doses were fine its all about being educated, and common sense
Yibbida Yibbida thats all folks.
Steve