What Materials Are These Please?

[Metal Head]

Hi,

We are having our kitchen revamped in the coming weeks. Today saw the start with the internal covering being pulled off the walls (plus many other tasks).

It revealed this material (the one on the left with the studs in it) having been used. Does anyone recognise what it is exactly - the house was built in 1954 so it may be one of the original sheets:?.

Secondly, can anyone tell by looking at the image attached if it is asbestos for sure. Does anyone have any idea how much it cost to have removed by the square metre?.

Thanking those in advance for their replies.

Cheers
David

[doug1]

Looks like fiberous plaster but cant be sure from those photos

Doug

[echnidna]

Ist one's fibrous plaster.

Can't tell from a pic if theres astbestos in the cement sheet but it probably does have, as its in the era when astbestos was used.

[Article99]

The first one's alright, I think, but I've seen the stuff in the second picture before...
For the love of christ, don't break it up. It ain't good for your health.

[rod@plasterbrok]

2nd is asbestos sheet for sure.

[OBBob]

To get asbestos removed you really need to get a few quotes. Its one of those things that seems to range in price in a big way! It depends on how much of it there is too.

I imgaine you don't want to remove it yourself ... especially if it is inside and you are living there. However there are government / EPA guidelines on how to do it on the web (maybe just for interest)? There is only one waste disposal yard that will accept it close to melbourne (Altona) and it is about 75c/kg to drop it off but it must be double wrapped and labelled. Otherwise you can hire a special skip ... but they are baout 3 times teh price of a non-asbestos skip of the same size. Anything asbestos related is like anything baby related ... puit on those words and the price skyrockets.

The other option is that you could just leave it and cover it again? It shouldn't be any harm if you don't disturb it.

Hope this helps.

[Cabbie]

Yeh the first one is this old fibre plasterboard stuff that was quite common back in those days and the second definately looks to me as asbestos. From memory you have to get the right people in to remove it as I am sure it is illegal to remove it yourself now, although it could be different for different states. I don't know anything about the prices of removal all I know is it isn't cheap but there should be a few people who specialise in the removal of asbestos.

[OBBob]

You are allowed to remove it in Victoria, although there are restriction son the quantity if you are a builder etc. You do need to get a certificate of disposal, which states that it was disposed of correctly etc.

[Honorary Bloke]

Asbestos for sure, mate. I recognize the culprit. Best bet is to leave it and seal it if you can. If it must be removed, check your local regulations for proper removal and disposal procedures, as it can cause big problems. :oo:

DIY removal here is a big NO NO.:(

[pawnhead]

Personally, I think that all the hype surrounding asbestos is being a bit overblown.

AFAIK almost all of the cases of asbestos related diseases come from either working in the factories making the stuff five days a week, breathing it in, shipbuilders spraying the stuff as insulation, or being exposed to an environment where blue (most dangerous) asbestos has been used as a loose fibrous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocking_%28texture%29) insulation that blows around the place, or by repeated cutting of the old super six roof sheets that contained blue asbestos.

AFAIK the old fibro contains white asbestos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Types_of_asbestos_and_associated_fibres) that isn't considered as dangerous. When I started in the industry it was common practice for chippies to be standing in a poorly ventilated bathroom, cutting compressed AC floor sheets with no protective gear at all, breathing in clouds of dust. I don't know how many can trace diseases back to that as a cause, but I know that the vast majority of complaints are coming from James Hardies employees, with a much lesser number coming from people who have worked in an asbestos insulated atmosphere for extended periods. Of course if you find loose fibrous blue asbestos insulation in any walls or ceilings, then get out of the place and call the experts, but a bit of fibro on the walls wouldn't worry me at all.


Breathing high levels of asbestos fibers for a long time can lead to an increased risk of asbestosis, lung cancer, and mesothelioma. Asbestosis is a noncancerous lung disease related to scarring of the lungs. This disease occurs in people heavily exposed to asbestos in the workplace and in household contacts of asbestos workers.
< snip >
Particle shape, particle solubility, and duration of exposure are reported to be the three most important factors that determine lung damage. Many researchers believe that amphibole asbestos particles pose a greater risk than chrysotile particles because they are less soluble and more rigid than chrysotile, allowing the amphibole asbestos particles to penetrate lung tissue and remain longer.
http://www.umt.edu/Libbyhealth/myths_and_facts/some_facts_asbestos.htm
Some of the more common uses of chrysotile include:

* asbestos cement sheeting, pipes and electrical meter panels
http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/FAQs/WorkplaceHazards/ChrysotileAsbestos/chrysotile_asbestos_q1.htm
How much asbestos is in a product does not indicate its health risk. If the asbestos fibres are enclosed or tightly bound in a compound, there is no significant health risk. One of the main problems with asbestos came from sprayed or "friable" (easily broken up) amphibole asbestos used in buildings until the 1970s. People working in construction, maintenance or in the renovation of older buildings should be particularly careful when handling this asbestos.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/environ/asbestos-amiante_e.htmlI'd get a dust mask, or a decent respirator from the hardware (or I'd probably just breathe through my T-shirt), and bust it up with a hammer. You're not going to cause much dust that way. Then dig a hole in your yard and bury it, or just chuck it under the house in a corner somewhere. Another alternative, if you're re-lining a wall, is to throw the bottom sheet on, then fill the wall up between the studs with all the bits of busted up fibro. Good insulation. :2tsup:

A hell of a lot more people would die from dihydrogen monoxide related causes. All this unnecessary paranoia is pushing disposal costs through the roof, for mine.

spoiler: -Of course it could be a case of [Gasp,,,, Wheeze]"Take my advice. I'm not using it". [/Gasp,,,, Wheeze] :wink:

[OBBob]

An added point to that is that everyone recognises AC sheet, however there are many other products such as insulation and lino that people go ripping into without realising that they also can contain asbestos.

People seem happy to go and take all sorts of other risks such as climbing ladders, playing with electrics, DIY re-stumping ... all of which can kill you much quicker ... but mention the 'a' word!!!

This is a touchy subject for me because I was dobbed in to worksafe by a do-gooding passer by who saw it being removed at my place. They assumed that you couldn't do this yourself and dobbed me in even though I was following all the guidelines, was at the back o teh property well away from the road, fully sperm suited with resparator, not creating any dust, wetting down the stuff as it was manually removed ... double wrapped and properly disposed of.

Luckily worksafe wasn't available to do an inspection of the site (god knows what issues that could have raised) and I just had to do some explaining to the council inspector.


Anyway ... that aside, the coucil will tell you to avoid breaking it and just punch the nails through and remove as full sheets. Good luck with that ... pretty much impossible!

It's worth being careful ... get the guidelines ... it isn't too hard to comply.

[silentC]

AFAIK almost all of the cases of asbestos related diseases ...
I personally know two people, one an architect and one an electrician who have only come into contact with asbestos through work in the house building industry and who have been diagnosed with asbestos related illness.

The architect died from it about 3 years ago. The sparky was only diagnosed this time last year, not sure what his prognosis is.

[journeyman Mick]

I know of at least one chippie who died of asbestosis and his only exposure would have been to AC sheeting. His brother, who was his business partner and had the same exposure and very similar genetic make up is still kicking on, many years later. You just can't tell.

Mick

[Cabbie]

I'd get a dust mask, or a decent respirator from the hardware (or I'd probably just breathe through my T-shirt), and bust it up with a hammer. You're not going to cause much dust that way. Then dig a hole in your yard and bury it, or just chuck it under the house in a corner somewhere. Another alternative, if you're re-lining a wall, is to throw the bottom sheet on, then fill the wall up between the studs with all the bits of busted up fibro. Good insulation. :2tsup:

A hell of a lot more people would die from dihydrogen monoxide related causes. All this unnecessary paranoia is pushing disposal costs through the roof, for mine.

spoiler: -Of course it could be a case of [Gasp,,,, Wheeze]"Take my advice. I'm not using it". [/Gasp,,,, Wheeze] :wink:

Good way to go about getting a huge ass fine. It isn't really something to take lightly. The stuff is quite hazardous and if you don't take the right precautions then you may have to wind up sufering the consequences whether that be a fine or an illness. As the saying goes it's better to be safe than sorry. I think the amount of ppl with asbestosis and mesothilioma speaks for itself to show how bad te stuff really is. I don't think it is a big beat up at all.

[OBBob]

Well the topic was bound to spark interest :) ... its like when soemone says they want to do their own wiring ... the switchboard lights up!!

I guess the answer to the original question is the one on the right is bad ... if it can't stay where it is read the guidlines, which are quite clear on your options.

[pawnhead]

I personally know two people, one an architect and one an electrician who have only come into contact with asbestos through work in the house building industry and who have been diagnosed with asbestos related illness.

The architect died from it about 3 years ago. The sparky was only diagnosed this time last year, not sure what his prognosis is.How much exposure, and what type of asbestos? I believe there was quite a bit of blue used as insulation in commercial buildings. I believe that super 6 roofing is also made of blue, and it gets flaky and powdery if it's not kept coated with something.
Good way to go about getting a huge ass fine.As far as I know there's no fine for removing asbestos sheets in your own home. I don't know about burying it in your yard, or in your walls, or shoving it under your house somewhere, but that's what I'd do if I had to get rid of a bit from my place. Of course it would depend on how much I'd have to get rid of.
It isn't really something to take lightly.Of course not. I wouldn't cut it with a grinder, and it's advisable to wear a good respirator mask, and as OBBob has pointed out, wet down the sheets. You can remove big sheets by locating the nails and punching them. Wear a white suit if you want, and it would be common sense not to stand there sucking in air from where your belting the sheet.
Breathing a few particles may kill you, but so may eating a peanut or being stung by a bee. And if you lock your front door and don't go outside, then your chances of being run over by a bus are reduced to almost zero.
The stuff is quite hazardous and if you don't take the right precautions then you may have to wind up sufering the consequences whether that be a fine or an illness. As the saying goes it's better to be safe than sorry.I'm not talking about people who have been exposed to blue asbestos insulation, or cases of people being exposed to dust clouds from cutting the stuff with a grinder, as many carpenters have been, before the dangers became widely known. I may well be one of the unlucky ones with a ticking time bomb inside me from the bad old day's.

I'm talking about someone breaking it up with a hammer whilst wearing a respirator or dust mask. How many documented cases of someone dying from this are there? As many deaths as there have been from peanut allergies? Somehow I doubt it.
I think the amount of ppl with asbestosis and mesothilioma speaks for itself to show how bad te stuff really is. I don't think it is a big beat up at all.
Disease is unlikely to result from a single, high-level exposure, or from a short period of exposure to lower levels of asbestos.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/asbestos
Asbestosis is a chronic inflammatory medical condition affecting the parenchymal tissue of the lungs. It occurs after long-term, heavy exposure to asbestos, e.g. in mining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AsbestosisMesothelioma is a pretty rare disease, and I believe that there are very few cases that haven't had a long history of exposure: -
Incidence of malignant mesothelioma currently ranges from about 7 to 40 per 1,000,000 in industrialized Western nations
< snip >
A history of asbestos exposure exists in almost all cases. However, mesothelioma has been reported in some individuals without any known exposure to asbestos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MesotheliomaIf someone can provide any conclusive evidence of homeowners ending up six foot under, just from busting up a bit of the stuff with a hammer, then I might change my mind.

But your right, and it's better being safe than sorry. It's a question of personal assessment of the risks involved, and most people wouldn't agree with mine. They wouldn't touch it, and they'd get a professional to get rid of the stuff. But it's my belief that most people are heavily influenced by the hype surrounding more dangerous practices of the past, more dangerous varieties, and long term exposure. That's where virtually all of the deaths are as far as I'm aware.

[silentC]

How much exposure, and what type of asbestos?
The architect was shocked when he found out he was going to die from cancer of the lining of his chest cavity caused by exposure to asbestos fibres because he has never been in contact with asbestos in a commercial environment (he was an architect!).

The sparky was exposed to fibro through most of his working life.

I read a report a few years ago that reckoned the next wave of asbestos related deaths would come from home renovators. The guys who contracted disease after exposure to it in large doses are all either dying or dead. The ones who don't know they've got it (like the architect) are starting to stack up now.

Point is, you don't know whether the stuff is dangerous or not. So you go right ahead and do what you want but the accepted wisdom is that you should avoid handling the stuff, which is what most sensible people will do.

[pawnhead]

I read a report a few years ago that reckoned the next wave of asbestos related deaths would come from home renovators. The guys who contracted disease after exposure to it in large doses are all either dying or dead. The ones who don't know they've got it (like the architect) are starting to stack up now.You may well be right. The stuff has been around for a hundred years, although it was more widely used as a sheet material from the late forties onwards. Of the thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of home renovators that have busted the stuff up over the years, I'm sure that many of them would have had a grinder in hand, no dust mask, and would have ended up covered in dust after their demolitions. The few cases that may arise, of them getting crook from it doesn't really prove anything though. With what we know today, you'd be smart to take precautions. I don't think that there'll be many cases popping up in thirty years time, from people doing demos today though. (unless they're idiots and don't follow some safe practices)


Point is, you don't know whether the stuff is dangerous or not. So you go right ahead and do what you want but the accepted wisdom is that you should avoid handling the stuff, which is what most sensible people will do.Of course you're right there, and that's some good advice. You never know what may happen. I just go off the evidence and statistics available when forming my opinion, without unnecessarilly freaking out about the stuff.

I'm just saying that if I just had a few sheets to get rid of, then I'd buy a mask (although I'd advise a proper respirator for a few extra bucks) and bust it up myself, rather than paying hundreds, or possibly thousands for someone to get rid of it. It doesn't cause much dust at all, except for what may have accumulated inside the wall itself. (This is often also toxic, coming from lead laden pollution over the years) Of course that's my choice and I may be proven to be an idiot in the long run. It might be wiser to let the monkeys who make huge profits out of it get the cancer.

[silentC]

What the report was saying is that during the 80's and 90's it became a real trend, especially in the cities, to buy an old fibro house and "do it up". I've done it myself, twice. Prior to that, people didn't tend to do it so much. The prevalence of 'lifestyle' shows helped change all that.

What happens when you rip out a wall or pull down a ceiling is that all of the dust that accumlated while the place was being built is released. It gets all through the house and of course you are breathing it in for days after you have finished the job. The mask etc protects you while you're doing the job but the dust doesn't just disappear, it hangs around on the furniture and on the walls.

Granted you would have to be very unlucky to get a fibre in your lung from that. I hope to God that I'm not that unlucky, because I have been there and done that in the renovation game. I don't want to go the way John did. It's like Emphysema but is excruciatingly painful in the later stages. He had been suffering with a sore back for years before he finally went to get it checked out, by which time it was too late to do anything.

I've done some risky things in this regard over the years but I'd never encourage anyone to do them on a public forum (like the doing your own wiring debate). You're probably right about it being over-hyped but I just don't think it's worth the risk when its a problem that has a solution (albeit a costly one).

[Barry_White]

I tend believe what Pawnhead says is correct on the various types of asbestos.

I was exposed to asbestos dust in my early 20's in the early 60's from cutting up old log cabin profile fibro with an angle grinder.

Again in the late 60's and the early and mid 70's cutting holes with an angle grinder in fibro walls to install oil heaters. And then again in the late 70's and early 80's whilst building my house using asbestos laden Hardiplank and Hardiflex. Some of this also was cut using an angle grinder.

As far as my health is concerned the healthiest part of my body is my lungs as was proved when I had my heart bypass operation one of the things that concerns them in the hospital is clearing congestion from the lungs after the operation and they make you suck on a little plastic thing with plastic balls in it and you have to draw these balls up to the top of three tubes and it usually takes the average person after the operation a week to accomplish getting all three balls up to the top of the tubes. I accomplished this after only two days in which the physiotherapist reckoned it was one of the best she had seen.

My point of all this is that I am at more concerned of dying from heart problems, diabetes, a stroke, nephritis or kidney failure, suffering from a melanoma from being sun burnt in my teens, being crippled by arthritis in the knees than I am of getting asbestosis or mesothelioma.

There are several things that we do through our lives that make us susceptible to various diseases such as eating too much fast or processed food that have a bigger chance of killing us than breathing in a bit of asbestos dust.

Sure we need to avoid the asbestos dust if we can but it's the same with sun cancers, heart disease, strokes and many other diseases. There are people out there that would go to extremes to avoid the asbestos dust but the same people would think nothing of stuffing themselves everyday with fast food that has more potential to kill them than the asbestos and the lead time is about the same in creating the damage.

You don't see governments legislating against fast food and to get rid of it safely.

I'm sorry but that is my philosophy.

Here is a pic of the thing they make you suck on to teat your lung capacity.

[silentC]

Even modern fibro has warnings on it now regarding danger of inhaling the dust.

Bazza, most of what you say you have done would be no different to what my sparky mate did before he retired. I think he was unlucky but it shows that it can happen to anyone. How the architect got it is a mystery but we can only assume that it was from either being exposed to it on site or from building/doing up his own houses.

You're right, there are plenty of other things that can take you off. Some of them you can do nothing about. But I don't agree with the argument that this being the case you should just not worry about it. It's too late for us because we've all been there and done it. Let's hope we are not the unlucky 0.009&#37; or whatever. But for people thinking of doing it now, they need to be aware that there IS a risk, regardless how small and they can do something to mitigate it.

[Barry_White]

Even modern fibro has warnings on it now regarding danger of inhaling the dust.

Bazza, most of what you say you have done would be no different to what my sparky mate did before he retired. I think he was unlucky but it shows that it can happen to anyone. How the architect got it is a mystery but we can only assume that it was from either being exposed to it on site or from building/doing up his own houses.

You're right, there are plenty of other things that can take you off. Some of them you can do nothing about. But I don't agree with the argument that this being the case you should just not worry about it. It's too late for us because we've all been there and done it. Let's hope we are not the unlucky 0.009% or whatever. But for people thinking of doing it now, they need to be aware that there IS a risk, regardless how small and they can do something to mitigate it.

Silent

I'm not advocating not protecting your self from the dust now that we know about the dangers. But we should also protect ourselves from the sun now we know about melanomas, or protecting our selves from heart disease now we know about what fast food does to us and all the other things that we know about and can protect ourselves from.

I suppose now we know all about these things we have options on choosing how we finally go it's just a matter of how much pain we want to suffer in going. At the age of 68 I do get to think how will I go, not that I am getting morbid about it because I still think and feel like a 40 year old I just can't do all the things a 40 year old can do.

Any way I'm out of this discussion.

[OBBob]

You don't see governments legislating against fast food and to get rid of it safely.




Actually I agree with BW and Pawnhead ... but for interest sake and because I love following these areguments ... in the eastern states today is the first day back at school and thye have banned the sale of soft drinks in tuckshops! Confectionary is to be ban by 2008.

Sorry it's off topic I know but I think its a good thing.

[silentC]

OK, well look, the points I am making are simply:

1. I know of two people, one deceased, who came into contact with the stuff in a similar way to many of us here might have done. The fact that one is dead and the other has been diagnosed with ultimately terminal asbestos-related illness indicates to me that it is not restricted to people who came into contact with high levels of it.

2. I'm opposed to publically encouraging people to handle the stuff on this forum, just as I am to advising people it's OK to do their own wiring.

That's it in a nutshell. The rest is just interesting debate, but those two things I am sure of.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Silent Sparkies were/are at risk because the boards in the fuse boxes were made of or insulated with asbestos. and they are always drilling into them when changing the wireing.

[silentC]

The sparky is still alive though. What about the architect? You don't suppose there's asbestos in those old-fashioned drafting machines do you? :p

[pawnhead]

OK, well look, the points I am making are simply:

1. I know of two people, one deceased, who came into contact with the stuff in a similar way to many of us here might have done. The fact that one is dead and the other has been diagnosed with ultimately terminal asbestos-related illness indicates to me that it is not restricted to people who came into contact with high levels of it.

2. I'm opposed to publically encouraging people to handle the stuff on this forum, just as I am to advising people it's OK to do their own wiring.

That's it in a nutshell. The rest is just interesting debate, but those two things I am sure of.Well I do a lot of my own wiring as well. I'm not encouraging others to do the same though, just as I'm not encouraging anyone to dump a bit of asbestos sheet in a plastic bag in the bottom of your bin each week, nor am I encouraging anyone to hold up a petrol station. I'm just saying what I'd do, and what I asses the risks as. People reading this should be responsible enough to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. The internet is full of nasties, but the beauty is that you can generally say what you believe without being censored. That's up to the owner of the forum, but if they were my forums, then you could say just about whatever you wanted, so long as you weren't being offensive toward anyone. There's a lot of information that can be gleaned because of this, and without it, perhaps government sponsored scare campaigns might be the rule of the roost.
The sparky is still alive though. What about the architect? You don't suppose there's asbestos in those old-fashioned drafting machines do you? :pI suppose it's good reason to stay away from drafting machines. As I've mentioned, there are cases of mesothelioma, from people who have had no contact with asbestos related products at all. And some people are just allergic to the twenty first century, and anything with man made chemicals in it at all.

Thems' the breaks.


Silent Sparkies were/are at risk because the boards in the fuse boxes were made of or insulated with asbestos. and they are always drilling into them when changing the wireing.Not to mention crawling around in roof spaces lined with loose sprayed blue asbestos insulation.

[silentC]

People reading this should be responsible enough to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.
There are a lot of stupid people out there (not suggesting anyone here is). That's my stance on the matter. Should we protect them from themselves, or let Darwin sort them out? Hmm, it's an attractive proposition in many ways...

[pawnhead]

Best advice might be to tell them to get lost and do a course at tech, or call an expert.
Doing anything yourself is just plain stupid. You might cut off your head with a power saw if you haven't got a university degree in power sawology.

[silentC]

a university degree in power sawism.
I bet these guys don't have one: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=44362

[journeyman Mick]

Whilst I dislike the "nanny state" that seems to be so prevalent today and whilst I do things that are not legal from a Health and safety view point I'm reluctant to give advise about such matters to faceless people of indeterminate skill and intelligence level. I think the only really responsible apporach is to advise people that certain activities are restricted by law to people with relevant qualifications and licenses and that other activities have inherent risks and that guidlines/laws/procedures exist which prescribe how they must/should be carried out to protect the health and safety of the operator and the public.

How's that for a "nanny state" post? :p

Mick

[silentC]

I think that's the safest approach, Mick. I think we sometimes forget that we're not talking to a couple of mates in a pub...

[Metal Head]

Thank you to all those who were kind enough to reply(ies) to my previous questions - much appreciated:wink:.

Does anyone know (and recommend) a decent (and qualified) company who carry out abestos removal in Melbourne?.

I was interested to hear that electricians have also been victims of being in contact with this hidious material. It was mentioned that the switchboard was a common place for them to come into contact with the substance. Thus I went and looked at our switchboard having always thought it maybe the nasty stuff. However, when we had the electrician in last year to do some work he said it wasn't asbestos - maybe he was in self denial:?. As in a previous thread I started about my switchboard last year many of you commented that it was illegal and it should be changed. So we may yet (in the near future) get the electrician back and relocate as well as change to a new metal one.

I have attached an image of one of the broken sheets within the fuse box - I would appreciate your view on whether you think it is the "nasty" stuff?.

Regards
David

[Metal Head]

Thank you to all those who were kind enough to reply(ies) to my previous questions - much appreciated:wink:.

Does anyone know (and recommend) a decent (and qualified) company who carry out abestos removal in Melbourne?.

I was interested to hear that electricians have also been victims of being in contact with this hidious material. It was mentioned that the switchboard was a common place for them to come into contact with the substance. Thus I went and looked at our switchboard having always thought it maybe the nasty stuff. However, when we had the electrician in last year to do some work he said it wasn't asbestos - maybe he was in self denial:?. As in a previous thread I started about my switchboard last year many of you commented that it was illegal and it should be changed. So we may yet (in the near future) get the electrician back and relocate as well as change to a new metal one.

I have attached an image of one of the broken sheets within the fuse box - I would appreciate your view on whether you think it is the "nasty" stuff?.

Regards
David

Just hoping someone can help with my queries PPPPLLLeeassseee.

Cheers
David

[pawnhead]

That looks like it could contain asbestos, so it probably does, but there's no way of telling unless you have it tested. As to your other question on asbestos removal in Melbourne ( http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=Asbestos+removal+in+Melbourne&btnG=Search&meta=), just get the cheapest quote, and make sure they’re licensed and insured.