Bifold Doors ?????

[pantotango]

We are about to attempt to install our bifold doors, but Im not sure what we should be using to frame around them. I have the doors there are six which are WRC and glass and I have ordered the tracks from Cowdroy :oo: and the hyspan beam for the lintel but Im not sure what we should be using for framing the doors as in size and type of timber. With the bottom guide rail I know it can be rebated but no idea what size etc we should be using for this. The doors are 705mm each and there are six of them and they are around 2230 high.
Ive asked around but getting nowhere fast and Im just getting more and more confused with where to start with the things and would really appreciate any advice.

[pantotango]

The hyspan beam which our draftsman has said to use is 300x63 do you think this is ok for the span of 5 metres. I dont like to doubt but have been told a few times our draftie is a bit vague with some of the stuff hes put on the plans.

[OBBob]

Hi There ... not sure about the bi-folds ... are they to be painted? If so then I guess you would use hardwood like a door jamb? If they are something like WR cedar then you probably want a specialy matching timber.

I think there is a bit of an are to getting any doors let alone bi-folds right ... so take your time and be careful.

As for the beam ... I don't think anyone will be able to answer unless you give more detail about what it is supporting. Tiled roof, second storey, flat / pitched etc.?

[pawnhead]

It depends on what look you want to achieve. I've just built a couple of sashes and six glazed doors out of hardwood at 770 X 2500 and I've hung them as bifolds. I used a Hyspan over the opening as well. I've gone into detail about the project here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=435423&postcount=435423). I wouldn't bother with a bottom guide rail but you might prefer one. The frame size is only what you need to screw the hinges in so long as it's fixed to something. If the first leaf is pivoting then you don't need any timber, or just what you want for a rebate. If you like more timber then get a jamb the width of the wall and put architraves on it.
How much did the doors and track set you back?

[pantotango]

The hyspan will only really be supporting the doors .We have lifted the house up and there is a 250pfc supporting the upper level which is around 3metres above the floor level so we need the hyspan to put at the door height I think to set the tracks etc on.

Your doors you made are excellent they look fantastic and gosh if only we were that skilled.

The doors cost us $900 from the auctions ,they are a stegbar door and have quite a dark tint on the glass thankfully as we get full afternoon sun. The tracks after much hunting around Ive decided to go with Cowdroy which are costing around $750 all up which is top and bottom pivots, hinges etc I dont think it includes any bolts. I looked into Centaur as I was told they were the better ones but they were going to cost around $1700 and that would have blown the budget way out.

I really like the way your track etc is sunk into the gyprock I was thinking we had to have some sort of timber frame. With the top track if we try to do similar to yours does it then just attatch straight to the hyspan or does it go onto some sort of framing timber that butts onto the hyspan.

:p

[pawnhead]

The hyspan will only really be supporting the doors .We have lifted the house up and there is a 250pfc supporting the upper level which is around 3metres above the floor level so we need the hyspan to put at the door height I think to set the tracks etc on. Well If the pfc can carry the weight then you could just bolt the frame up to it using a few lengths of threaded rod. In your situation I would have set the beam at whatever your door height was and framed on top to support the upper floor but I don’t know what the beam was designed to carry.

Your doors you made are excellent they look fantastic and gosh if only we were that skilled. Thanks for that. I’ve been a chippy builder for over twenty five years so I thought I’d tackle a first and build some doors since to have custom jobs made would have cost about $5K or more.
The doors cost us $900 from the auctions ,they are a stegbar door and have quite a dark tint on the glass thankfully as we get full afternoon sun. That’s a good price. I was thinking about buying some glazed doors that I saw from Doors Plus for about $130 per panel. I think they’re some sort of maple but they’re just a standard size and I wanted high doors.
The tracks after much hunting around Ive decided to go with Cowdroy which are costing around $750 all up which is top and bottom pivots, hinges etc I dont think it includes any bolts. I looked into Centaur as I was told they were the better ones but they were going to cost around $1700 and that would have blown the budget way out. Yeh, that’s what I found. They’re pretty expensive for what they are.
I’ve just worked out how much mine cost me. The track was $66, the stainless hinges (four on each door, two on each window) and screws were $120. I had the carriages already but I’m sure you could make something up with a bit of stuffing around for not too much $. The flush bolts were $14.50 each X 4 = $58, the mortice bolts were about the same = $58, The keyed handles were $20 X 2 = $40 , the aluminium angle on the floor was $13 and the cabin hooks were virtually free at 80c each from Big W (good for a lot of hardware and tools). So that’s about $357 for all the furniture.
The timber was $605, the glue was $41 the glass was $480 and silicone and glazing bead nails were probably about $15, so that’s $1141 for the doors including the two windows and framework, making $1498 all up not including the supporting bulkhead which is never a part of any door system quote, and not including stain and polyurethane.
The labour was priceless.

I really like the way your track etc is sunk into the gyprock I was thinking we had to have some sort of timber frame. With the top track if we try to do similar to yours does it then just attatch straight to the hyspan or does it go onto some sort of framing timber that butts onto the hyspan.Tell us what system (http://www.cowdroy.com.au/doortracks.html) you're getting and I’ll have a look at it. They usually intend you to install the track under the beam (unlike mine), and the track will probably run the full length of the opening (unlike mine). You just screw it up into the beam, or through a jamb and into the beam with some long screws. It will come with a bottom track and guide as well and they won’t have been intended to fold back flat against the wall. :wink: There’ll be a big stack of doors in the opening sticking out perpendicular if you configure it the way it’s intended.

[pantotango]

I have ordered the Heavy Duty Triumph multi folding 60kg per leaf.
Id love to be able to make something up ourselves like you have but believe me it is way beyond us even trying to do this is a major.
Appreciate your time too many thanks

[pawnhead]

I have ordered the Heavy Duty Triumph multi folding 60kg per leaf.
Id love to be able to make something up ourselves like you have but believe me it is way beyond us even trying to do this is a major.
Appreciate your time too many thanksNo problems.

As for your Triumph bi fold system (http://www.cowdroy.com.au/hdtriumphfldng.pdf),,,

Hmmm,,,.

I installed a system about ten years ago with an identical design and I hope I never see one again. I won’t slander Cowdroy because I can’t remember who manufactured it but this is what I found when I installed it and I can see the same problems may occur with this system.: -
1. The pivoting system was inadequate and it deflected towards the middle of the opening when the first door was hung and closed. It deflected towards the outside when the door was opened. When the second door was hung it fixed up the problem of deflection towards the middle but it still deflected towards the outside when open. They say in the brochure that the guide track is optional, but I reckon that without it the problem would be compounded. I wouldn’t have rated it at 60kg but it probably would have been alright for a hollow core internal door, however in my opinion the whole design of the pivoting system was inadequate. Because of the outward deflection at the top of the door I had to lift the doors giving a huge gap underneath so they’d clear the floor when open and if it deflected any more after I’d gone then they would have had to crank them up even more. I can imagine the same thing happening to this system after looking at it. That top pivot simply does not look strong enough to me but I may be wrong. With a hinged first panel system you don’t get that problem at all. The jamb holds everything straight. Unfortunately you can’t use hinges with this system unless you employ unequal door sizes.
2. There’s no central support for the jamb leaf so it’s free to bend and warp if it wants to. They say you can use a 3 metre high door but if it’s a timber door then you’d better cross your fingers and pray that it’s straight and it stays that way. I’ve seen some doors of that height with quite large bows in them in my time. If it's bowed then you may have to leave a huge gap at the side of the door or it will jam when you try opening it. If your opening is already a fixed size then you'll have to remove the door and all the fittings then plane it down or plane a big ugly bevel along the end. If it bows after it's installed then it will jam up and you'll have the same headaches. This is not a problem at all with a hinged system.
3. With the pivot set back 55mm from the edge of the door it means that the door swings slightly inwards so you can’t have the door close hard against a jamb at the top or the sides, or an angle on the floor. You’ll have to put up with a gap that the wind blows in unless they have some magical way to overcome this that I haven’t thought of.
4. With the pivot set back 55mm from the edge of the door, and with a flimsy 3mm mounting plate the optional end fixing bracket would be useless and you’d be relying totally on the top fixings. You’d better put some really long screws in because if the door starts perishing in the weather it will fall off. They have an optional side fixing bracket to overcome this and give it more strength so long as you like looking at a big ugly plate screwed to the face of the door. It’s chrome so if you want to match it with the rest of your furniture you’d have to get chrome not brass or stainless. I’d imagine the screws would be very noticeable unless they were chrome as well.
5. You have to leave a big gap over top of the door to get to the adjustment locking bolt.
6. You have to take the door right off the carriage to make any adjustments. If you get it wrong you have to take it off again until you get it right
IMO this design is no good and I’d never buy one. I've hung thousands of doors quickly and I had to stuff around with these for ages just to get them to work, let alone try to minimise the look of all the gaps I ended up with and it still looked dodgy. I can't imagine how long it would take a handyman if he doesn't butcher it in the process.
If I had one already I’d throw the pivots in the bin and hinge the first leaf. I’d bend the carriage mounting bracket at 90 degrees so it provides end fixing as well as bringing the pivoting point close to the edge of the door. Then I’d cut the track and install it on an angle so I wouldn’t have to use unequal door sizes, otherwise it wouldn’t even open very far at all before they jammed up. That would fix all the problems that I can see with it. I’d like to see their installation manual (if they’ve got one) and see what they’re proposing for all the gaps you’d end up getting.
That’s just my two bobs worth but I’d try to get my money back if I were in your shoes. Then I’d go out and buy one of these (http://www.centor.com.au/au/e2+.html). I was quoted $660 for a set up with all the tracks and hinges but without bolts and locks. I can tell by just looking at it and studying the brochure (http://www.centor.com.au/au/downloads/E2%20Plus%20brochure.pdf) and the installation manual (http://www.centor.com.au/au/downloads/E2+%20instructions%20AW.pdf%5B/url) That it’s by far a superior product with an excellent design that would have none of the problems of a pivoting system. Even the adjustment system is superior in that you don’t have to leave any gap above the door to get a spanner in like you do with the Cowdroy system, and you can adjust them whilst they’re hanging with just an ordinary screwdriver not a specific sized spanner. This is a desirable feature with timber doors that may move over time. It’s rated at 40kg but I’d trust it a hell of a lot more than putting a 40kg door on that 60kg system above. Your doors would be well under 40kg if they were cedar I’d say. I’d guess that my 2500 hardwood doors would come in at a bit under 40kg as well but that would be guessing. I haven’t had to lift them since they’ve been glazed but the frames are pretty heavy and the glass isn’t all that light either.

If you’ve never hung a door before you may find all that a bit confusing. I’m happy to try to explain my points in more detail, perhaps with diagrams.

[pantotango]

Wow thanks so much for all that info I really do appreciate the time you have taken to do that. :D

funny as today I went to buy some hinges and they had all the centor products there and they were not that much more expensive as I had orignally been lead to believe. Thanks heaps and after your information Im going to try and get my money back on the other system , hopefully they will be ok as they are not being delivered untill next week so shall try my hardest but Im so glad you have kindly pointed everything out as honestly I would not have had any idea whatsoever on what you have picked up and if we have to spend a few hundred more for a much better product Im happy to do that.

Ill let you know how I go. Fingers crossed

[pawnhead]

Wow thanks so much for all that info I really do appreciate the time you have taken to do that. Thanks for that. You can give me a brownie point if you want: - http://mt0.woodworkforums.com/images/button2/reputation.gif ;)


funny as today I went to buy some hinges and they had all the centor products there and they were not that much more expensive as I had orignally been lead to believe. Thanks heaps and after your information Im going to try and get my money back on the other system , hopefully they will be ok as they are not being delivered untill next week so shall try my hardest but Im so glad you have kindly pointed everything out as honestly I would not have had any idea whatsoever on what you have picked up and if we have to spend a few hundred more for a much better product. Im happy to do that. I tried to buy just the two carriage hinges and a bit of track from Centor but they wouldn’t break up a set. Oh well, that’s their loss since I just made up my own superior system for a quarter of the cost. A bit more labour intensive though. But I’m not too worried about a bit of my spare time if I get a good looking job out of it.
Ill let you know how I go. Fingers crossedDo that. I’ll help you out as much as I can.

Be careful setting out the opening size. It’s not like hanging a single door where there’s just one measurement. Your errors will be compounded with six doors and it’s always an apprehensive moment when you hang that last door and check out the clearance you get in the middle. It’s not often perfect but there’s plenty you can do to tune them up a bit (checking in the hinges or packing them a bit, planing down a leaf or two, adjusting height etc.). If you’ve got a long wall that you can lean all the doors against, then push them all together tight. See how they fit together and plane them so there’s no gaps between them. Measure the overall width and make allowance for the clearance between each leaf. With the Centor system the hinges are non-mortice so they’re easy to fit. You don’t have to chop them into the door, and the clearance between the leaves will be the thickness of the hinge. It will be the number of doors plus one, so in your case it will be 7 X hinge thickness + doors. If your doors are all square edged then you can rebate the middle two but allow for that in your measurements. Alternatively you can nail a cover strip on one of the doors from the outside. It will still look neat, you won’t have to make rebates and the door rails will look the same width from inside and out. A way of interlocking the other gaps between the doors is to router a semicircular groove in the edge of interlocking doors and insert a dowel in one of them, but that’s not really done anymore. A seal system is more weather tight and from looking at the installation instructions, Centor has a good rubber seal system that inserts in a saw cut in the edge of the doors. I just used a foam stick on weather seal from Raven. It's pretty cheap for a fifty metre roll, but I was impatient and bought a heap of 6 metre packets from the hardware (I forgot to add that in my costs. I'll dig up the receipt).
If you don’t have a long wall, then just number the doors and test their fit to each other one at a time. Check the measurements top and bottom to make sure that you're not planing the doors to a wedge shape. Be very carefull that the opening is dead plumb and level all around. I’d recommend a water level and a plumb bob. The simplest devices are the most accurate sometimes. A bashed up spirit level and dumpy level can’t be trusted as much. I wouldn’t even trust a brand new one as much as I trust Isaac Newton and the laws of gravity.

That Hyspan of yours may be unnecessary as well as I’ve already mentioned. It’s easier and cheaper to just frame it up to the PFC and put in some booker rod (threaded rod) rather than installing a big expensive beam, but as I’ve mentioned I don’t know if it can carry the weight of three doors (though you have six, it’s only really carrying three). Less than 100kg I’d say.

edit: - Ah, I've just realized that you've jacked the house up and that's what the PFC is for. I wasn't paying attention there. I wouldn't worry about the Hyspan if it were me, but technically you should get an engineer to do the calculations. He''ll probably allow for the weight of all the doors rather than just the three that the PFC will be carrying.

[pantotango]

Hi again. Stuck again I am . Not good what a headache when your not sure of what your doing.
So Ive decided on Centor tracks I have abit of a print out with what is needed etc but dont know what to order in the way of framing and for the sill etc. They do their own sill which I dont want just the chanel but not sure what we use for the head jamb they have on the specs it should be 68mm and we sort of worked out it should be around well I think 140mm does that sound right or am I off track.

Thanks again

[pawnhead]

It depends on what look you want.

Do you want plaster set reveals like mine, or do you want a timber reveal with timber architraves on the inside?

They have a pretty good diagram of what's going on in their installation manual here: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitlejpg.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitlejpg.jpg)

But there's no dimension that I can see for the depth of the track.

I can draw up a plan of options of how it could be done if you tell me what look you want.

[pawnhead]

As for the bottom, you have two options by the look of things. Maybe there's a different type of bottom guide for each. One is a concealed option where the track sits under the door when closed, and with the other it sits outside the door.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Un.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Un.jpg)

How you install it depends on what's there. Is it concrete or tiles or timber? Will there be a deck outside or a concrete patio?

[pantotango]

I actually really like the plaster like yours I hadnt thought about that option but when I saw the photos of your doors I prefer it compared to the timber showing.
At the bottom for the moment we only have particle board and not too sure with what we will be using tiles or timber for the flooring . There will be a timber deck off the doors eventually as well.
I was looking at the bottom options and think the concealed would be better.

I think you must have at least 10 brownie points by now :2tsup:
thanks heaps

[pawnhead]

Well this is one way: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitle--1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitle--1.jpg)

You could put an architrave over the outside, or just have a neat joint.

[pawnhead]

And this is another: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitled-Captured-02-3.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitled-Captured-02-3.jpg)
Or this: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitl.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitl.jpg)

Here is a way you can install the guide track at the bottom. This is obviously not to scale: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitled-Captured-04-2.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitled-Captured-04-2.jpg)

Drill weep holes in the guide track so water can escape.

[pantotango]

Excellent that is such a help appreciate it. If we are going to hide the framing in the bulkhead does that mean we can just frame it all up with pine rather that using hardwood. Even better if so as we are tight on budget now so that will work really well.

[pawnhead]

Use whatever rotten old rubbish you've got. So long as it's solid enough to hold the cladding and plasterboard in place, then you won't see it, and you'll be right. Just bear in mind that the track is carrying the weight of your doors, so if you're not going to waste your money on a Hyspan, then make sure you bolt the framework up with some booker bar, or strap it up to something solid with hoop iron stretched tight (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=436666&postcount=5). If it carries your weight without deflecting at all, then it should carry your doors, no wuckers. Of course you'll want a decent continuous plate at the bottom that won't deflect too much. A nice straight 4 X 3 on the flat, strapped up to each stud, and the studs strapped up to something solid at the top, should do the trick.

[pantotango]

:) hi again. Yey I finally got a refund from Cowdroy which was a relief and have just ordered the Centor stuff you pointed out and it only endend up being an extra $150 which I thought was pretty good.

Typical I decided to go with timber framing showing now god do I annoy myself honestly I change my mind that many times its not funny.

On the Centor stuff it states that the jambs should be 30 and the head 68 thick does that sound right I just wonder why the top part should be so big. Should i use Kwila for that or some other tlimber. l

Do you know what it is I think I just like to confuse myself,like its not hard enough as it is!!!!:doh:

[pawnhead]

:) hi again. Yey I finally got a refund from Cowdroy which was a relief and have just ordered the Centor stuff you pointed out and it only endend up being an extra $150 which I thought was pretty good. Good move. Well worth the extra IMO. :2tsup:
Typical I decided to go with timber framing showing now god do I annoy myself honestly I change my mind that many times its not funny. In that case, if you want timber reveals and timber architraves, then I'd set it up with a door jamb that can either be one solid piece of rebated timber, or it can be made out of two pieces glued and nailed together. I'd set it up like this: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitl-1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitl-1.jpg)

On the Centor stuff it states that the jambs should be 30 and the head 68 thick does that sound right I just wonder why the top part should be so big. Should i use Kwila for that or some other tlimber. The only reason that they want 30mm for the jamb at the sides is so that the screws for the hinges will get enough purchase in the timber, so that they won't fall off. A typical standard jamb is only 19mm thick at the narrow part of the rebate, and that's fine to use, so long as the screws for the hinges go right through the jamb and gain purchase in the framing timber behind it.
The reason that they want 68mm at the head could be for one of two reasons.
1. Perhaps that's the depth of the track, and with a 68mm thick head, then once the track is installed against it, it will end up flush with it and give a tight clearance above the doors. But if you have a look at my drawing, you'll see that it's unnecessary. You can just use a 19mm thick jamb piece and pack it down to the required height with cheap rough sawn framing timber since it's not going to be seen at all.
2. Perhaps they are referring to the timber above the track that supports it. The track carries the weight of the doors and the screws are being pulled vertically downwards. For this reason they need to be longer, and spaced closer together, and be screwed into something solid like solid framework, or the Hyspan that you may be installing. This timber doesn't have to be dressed feature grade because it's not seen at all.

You only need to spend extra time and money on the joinery that's seen in the end. Whilst a 68mm head jamb would work, it would have to be specially milled and it would be quite expensive.

Do you know what it is I think I just like to confuse myself,like its not hard enough as it is!!!!:doh:Well if you've never hung a door, then installing a set of bifolds would be confusing. I'm happy to help as much as I can. If you run into any problems, then it may help if you post some photos of your situation. :)

[pawnhead]

If you're using a standard door jamb instead of two separate pieces nailed together, then you'll find that they come in varying widths depending on the thickness of your wall. But the width of the rebate is usually always 38mm to suit the thickness of a standard door.
Because the position of the track at the top overlaps the door a bit, you'd have to plane down the jamb to suit.
You can see what I mean in this illustration: -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitl-2.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitl-2.jpg)

There's no track running down the sides, so you don't need to plane down the jambs there, but you may need to nail an extra strip on the edge, to suit whatever look and finish that you want on the outside where the walls are clad with whatever. You may want an architrave around the outside or you may not.

edit: - If you're using a standard jamb instead of two pieces, then it will be more difficult (but not impossible) to run a saw cut for insertion of the rubber weather strip. With two separate pieces you can run the saw cut before you nail them together. Alternatively you can just use the cheaper, adhesive stick on foam strip like I've used. Or you could just not bother about a weather seal in the rebates. Most peoples front doors don't have weather seals around their perimeter, but it's a good idea to put them in I reckon. It would give better insulation, especially if you're running air conditioning or heating.

edit 2. You could save a few more $ if you wanted, by just using a small square bead to form the rebate instead of a full width piece. Just get a wider reveal than you need, and rip the bead out of one of the edges. : -
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitl-1-2.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitl-1-2.jpg)

[pantotango]

Hi thanks so much for that fantastic and once again greatly appreciated unbelievable advice.

I forgot to order the dropbolts when I ordered the tracks Centors are really expensive Ive found another place but non locking for only around $14 . Centor tells us we need 6. 3 locking and 3 non locking can we get away with all non locking. I cant figure out why we need them to lock.

[pawnhead]

I would have thought you’d need eight. I did but my doors are quite tall, so I put them top and bottom. None of mine are locking. Four of them (flush bolts) are concealed in the edge of the doors and you can’t access them unless the doors are unlocked in the middle. The star keys for the other four (mortice bolts) are also concealed in the edges of the doors, but even if you were on the inside and you had your own star key, you couldn't open them without first unlocking the concealed flush bolts. Of course I just used a just a cheap snib lock in the middle, so if you’re inside then you can unlock and open the doors without a key.

If your bolts are face mounted, and not concealed in the edge of the doors, then you’ll be able to open them from the inside, however if you use a sliding door deadlock in the centre, then you won’t be able to open them even if you disengage the bolts. A sliding door lock has a grabbing mechanism so you can’t separate the two middle doors, hence you can’t open them.

Of course anyone could make a simple bump key from instructions on the net. It opens just about any lock, and I’m sure that crims would be well equipped to break into almost any house. If you want to deadlock your entire house, then get a lock that can’t be picked with a bump key. Any flat key design can be bumped. The more expensive precision made locks bump open a lot easier than cheap sloppy locks. Get those expensive high tech combination locks and put them on all your windows and doors if you’ve got deep pockets. Of course, once they’ve checked that there’s nobody home by turning off the power at your meter box, and coming back a few hours later to see if you’ve turned it back on or lit any candles, then they could just cut and smash the glass with a blanket over it if they wanted to. Better install some bars or security shutters as well then.

Best bet is to install a decent alarm, preferably a back to base one with battery back up, and a visible flashing light on the eaves. A crim is likely to go for an easier target then.

[pantotango]

Phew touch wood we now have a frame with many thanks to you for all your excellent advice. We ended up getting a good deal on 30mm Kwila so thanks for the advice we steered away from the 68mm head and it all seems ok. Mind you not quite up to the track part yet thats still comming.

Im abit stuck now on how to figure out with the bottom channel. We want to try and avoid a sill due to budget and I prefer the look without them but if its easier then we would defnitley put one in.

Sooooo with the bottom channel at the moment in the opening we have particle board right up to the outside of the jamb eventually we are putting a deck up to the doors and I would like to run it all flush like yours. Do we need to cut some of the particle board back from the end of the joists and put the channel directly on the joists or does it go straight onto the particle with the floor butting up to it. The only thing is I think the channel is 26 mm and I wonder if it would then poke out above the flooring.

Hopefully Im explaining myself ok .Just abit stuck with how we figure that one out. If you like I can post a photo just cant do it for a few days as have relatiaves arriving from overseas early morn so no doubt will be busy there.

[pawnhead]

I'm sure that you'll get detailed literature with the door track, but from their website it shows the set out for the bottom track: -

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Un.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Un.jpg)

And this is how I'd do it if I was using particle board under my flooring inside: -

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Untitled-Captured-04-2.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Untitled-Captured-04-2.jpg)

If I wasn't using particle board, then I'd set my internal joists 20mm higher than my outside joists. This is how I've set mine out with an aluminium angle nailed down to the decking board, for the doors to close against. I'm just leveling out the old floor joists ready for flooring. : -

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Feb08671-1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Feb08671-1.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/th_Feb08668-1.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/Feb08668-1.jpg)

You'd want to have a step down for weatherproofing, but I suppose you could have the outside and inside at the same level. Without some sort of seal, you'd have wind blowing in there though.

If the track is 26mm deep, then I'd trench it into the floor joists so it ends up flush with the decking. You'll need a piece of decking inside the track to get to the face of the doors. I'd run it under the doors as I've shown, and use it to silicone, and nail an aluminium angle to.

[pantotango]

We now have all the tracks and the visitors have since left us in peace so now we have to put it all togeather.

Have decided after much humming and haahing that I prefer timber floors and worked out approx 15mm for that overlay stuff we can get soooooooo our particle board goes all the way to the outside of the house right to the end of the joists so does that mean to rebate the channel in that Im going to have to cut away some of the particle board to get it down enough for the flooring to go flush or should I cut away the particle board back to a point and then put some sort of timber packing on the joists to get the channel to the right height for it to be flush later. The particle is 18mm the channel is 26mm and the timber flooring will be around 15mm. Wee problem as Im not too sure if the flooring will be exactly that as Im hoping to get it from the auctions at a later date and it will all depend on cost at the time.

any ideas

thanks again:-

[pawnhead]

We now have all the tracks and the visitors have since left us in peace so now we have to put it all togeather. Is it the Eclipse E2 Plus (http://www.centor.com.au/au/e2+.html)? Did you get it for a six door set up?
Have decided after much humming and haahing that I prefer timber floors and worked out approx 15mm for that overlay stuff we can get soooooooo our particle board goes all the way to the outside of the house right to the end of the joists so does that mean to rebate the channel in that Im going to have to cut away some of the particle board to get it down enough for the flooring to go flush or should I cut away the particle board back to a point and then put some sort of timber packing on the joists to get the channel to the right height for it to be flush later. The particle is 18mm the channel is 26mm and the timber flooring will be around 15mm. Wee problem as Im not too sure if the flooring will be exactly that as Im hoping to get it from the auctions at a later date and it will all depend on cost at the time.Have you installed the outside joists? Have you framed up the opening? Is that the bottom track that's 26mm?

If your joists are the same level then you'll end up with a step the thickness of the floor. You'll need to get an angle the same size. 15mm is OK. Are you allowing for underlay? You'll have to cut the floor back. The location of the cut will be determined by the thickness of the door, the positioning of your hinges, and the positioning of your jamb. Start with the outside position of your jamb. Are you putting architraves around the outside?

[pantotango]

wow what a week.weekend. Finally have the thing all framed up hopefully it is going to be ok looks ok.I went through all the track and bits and pieces and got it quite wrong the channel is only 19mm as opposed to the 26mm I thought it was so I figured we would just pop it straight on the partice\joists and then get the thicker floor to make it easier with an underlay then it should work out right.

So doors 1,2,3 have all the hardware on them and fingers and toes crossed we have done all of that ok very exciting to finally start and we now have to try and finish this weekend. So far it seems to be ok but who knows I guess when we hang them we will see.

So hopefully by Sunday arvo we should have them done and then can put a photo up.

Keep your fingers crossed

thanks so much for your help so far it really has been such a great help and I do think without it we would have ended up having to get a builder or someone to help so many many thanks
PS keep your fingers and toes crossed as well

[pawnhead]

fingers and toes crossed
< snip >
Keep your fingers crossed
< snip >
PS keep your fingers and toes crossed as wellYou (http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3347/crazycontortionistdb9.jpg) can (http://www.digigami.com/eurekagram/uploaded_images/gmail-770516.jpg) rest (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/226053cHKG_w.jpg) assured (http://youngcurmudgeon.typepad.com/photos/for_ray/clintoncrossed.jpg) that (http://www.ronandjoe.com/friends/hypnoclp/hypno3/Contents/images/3_bus_trans_2/crossed_fingers.gif) I (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/pawnheadfingerscrossed.jpg) will (http://notmydissertation.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/135-3600_IMG-738494.JPG) have (http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/lka0071l.jpg) everything (http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7056/goodluck02ct5.jpg) that (http://inbeautephoto.com/fineart/images/treelegscrossed400.jpg) I (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/pawnheadfingerscrossed.jpg) possibly (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/crossedlegsbed.jpg) can (http://www.gradychampion.com/images/grady_legs_crossed.jpg) crossed (http://www.photosbyjan.com/images/wedding/legs_crossed.jpg) for (http://www.illustrationweb.com/images200/352120-27232.jpg) you (http://www.geocities.com/&#37;7Edaguerreotype/what3.JPG) pantotango (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/27/2b/dd4f729fd7a0208047b4d010._AA240_.L.jpg).

Hopefully (http://www.gatewaylinks.com/ahoe/tf-385.gif), the (http://thejournal.com/) finished product (http://www.photoseek.com/greece/01GRE-02-29-halfbluelockeddoor.jpg) will (http://www.awillr.com.au/) look (http://div.dyndns.org/EK/eyeball.jpg)



excellent (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/0/195dp9ktf53j9.jpg). click--->:wink: (http://www.johnjuanart.com/Cheese-Wink-Wink-Cake.jpg) http://www.woodworkforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif (http://www.chineseclayart.com/mall/c110/s25729/images/works/wk%20thumb%20up.jpg)


thanks so much for your help so far No (http://www.incard.ca/images/no%20worries.jpg) wuckers (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=no+wuckers) mate (http://www.aussieproducts.com/images/swingers___no_worries_THUMB.gif). :2tsup: (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/holgerdanske/thumbup-1.gif)

[pantotango]

:D Wow here I am back again.

Guess what so exciting we have now hung three and they are perfect havent had to adjust them so touch wood the rest will go well. We did have one boo boo I forgot to allow for the channel to sit flush so ended up having to cut away some of the particle board to lower it into or the doors were not going to fit. The other 3 are hopefully going up today. Im just wrapped so far as they work beautifully . I can tell you though there was alot of stress ,arguements, standing around scratching the head but well worth it so far. Ill get a photo on soon to show you so far

Thanks once again could not have done it without your valuable advice.:2tsup:

[pantotango]

Wow we have finally done it . Far out what a mission that was and just to top it off as we were finishing the frame on the outside we (dumb dumb dumb ) didnt measure the nails and put one through the timber into the track . Gosh proably shouldnt admit to that but never mind after much stressing cursing etc managed to get it out and then had to try and get inside the track to wack out the dent as the doors wouldnt go past.

Any way its all sorted just have to finish putting the stain on and the handles.

Ill try and add a photo not sure how to but look thank you so very much for all your help we honestly cannot thank you enough. Im not sure if you realise how much help this forum and the kind people on it can be I do believe we would have been well and truly stuck without your help. Gosh all the time you took to explain , draw stuff up etc is greatly appreciated and once again the biggest thanks to you.

Thanks pawnhead:D :2tsup: :) :U tried to put a photo in I cant figure that out have no idea