Some hotwater pipes are not copper. Is it right?

[Jessie]

Hi, all

Our bathroom is being renovated. The plumber just installed hotwater pipes behind the wall today. I noticed that majority of pipes are made of copper but some are not, they look like black plastic and about 50cm to 80cm long. The plumber said they are used to prevent vibration when the tap is turned on. As far as I know, in the old days, all hotwater pipes were made of copper/brass.

Is there something wrong or I am far behind new technology?

Thank you

Jessie

[duckman]

Entire houses are now plumbed with PVC pipes, both hot and cold water in lieu of copper.

HTH,

[ozwinner]

I think youll find all new houses are plumbed in plastic to keep the cost down, and I read somewhere that the copper over time can can give you metal poisoning.

Al :)

[outback]

Rubbish Al, Thee is nothing wrong with copper pipes. They said the same thing about the lead ones the Romans used too. I used lead for all our plumbing and just look at me. :saythat: :sueme: :rofl:

[Jessie]

Thank you very much, guys. Now I'm convinced that PVC pipes are used for hotwater system these days. It's great I am catching up with new technologies.

[ozwinner]

And in years to come they will say, owwh bugger, about that plastic pipe.........:o

Al :U

[Gumby]

They said the same thing about the lead ones the Romans used

Maybe so, but what have the Romans ever done for us ?

[bsrlee]

It should be ABS plastic, not PVC for pressure pipe - ABS is considerably stronger and tends to bend rather than shattering into pointy shards. Is your hotwater heater a gravity/off peak or a mains/on demand unit? PVC should be OK for a gravity system, otherwise its used for waste water/drainage.

[duckman]

It should be ABS plastic, not PVC for pressure pipe - ABS is considerably stronger and tends to bend rather than shattering into pointy shards. Is your hotwater heater a gravity/off peak or a mains/on demand unit? PVC should be OK for a gravity system, otherwise its used for waste water/drainage.

Plastic is plastic as far as I'm concerned.:)

[echnidna]

Maybe so, but what have the Romans ever done for us ?

They invented Salami Sausage

and pizza

and roman sandals

dunno bout roman candles though

:thewave:

[Dr Jan Itor]

SWMBO's family tell me they stopped using copper in the US because people were ripping it off building sites even after it was plumbed in. :no:

[SilentButDeadly]

Parent's house was built in 1996 and is fully plumbed in plastic. All the junctions and joinres are brass with push fit fittings. Took only a day to plumb a very large house with little other equipment apart from a drill and a hacksaw - no solder, gas bottles and other OHS threats plus it was quick. The plumber thought this stuff was marvellous and after ten years and no dramas so do the olds.

If you are interested http://www.auspex.com.au/PushFitSystem/ & http://www.reece.com.au/plumbing/products/talbot

[outback]

They invented Salami Sausage

and pizza

and roman sandals

dunno bout roman candles though

:thewave:

Wotabout
Roman in the gloamin'?

[Bleedin Thumb]

It should be ABS plastic, not PVC for pressure pipe - ABS is considerably stronger and tends to bend rather than shattering into pointy shards. Is your hotwater heater a gravity/off peak or a mains/on demand unit? PVC should be OK for a gravity system, otherwise its used for waste water/drainage.

I was under the impression that PVC or more accurately UPVC was no longer used for water pipes because of the chlorine gas leakage?

I was also under the impression that they were going to faze it out for stormwater and sewer because of some environmental byproducts with the manufacturing process.

I may have this wrong so if you know... post away.:)

[silentC]

The stuff they use now is called PEX which is the acronym for cross-linked high-density polyethylene. Not a big fan of it myself but I suppose sooner or later it will replace copper altogether, unless something new comes out in the meantime.

The main thing I have against it is that the fittings reduce the internal diameter of the pipe (because they push inside it) and can cause pressure problems if you don't design the installation to suit it. I believe it is similar price to copper but costs heaps less to install because it is quick. However, you really have to use more of it than you would in a copper system because of the limitations - instead of a single line carrying hotwater around your house, you're supposed to install a separate line to each tap from a manifold near the HWS. That's not to say that many plumbers do it that way, if any...

[silentC]

Also, UPVC (unplastisised PVC) is the stuff they make sewer and storm water pipes from. They do use CPVC (chlorinated PVC) for hot and cold water supply but I think PEX is all but eliminating it.

[journeyman Mick]

Rats have been known to chew holes in pex, polybutylene and PVC pipes, but as far as I know they don't chew copper pipes.

Mick

[silentC]

Actually, I know someone who claims that has happened to them. They'll chew through electrical cables, so I don't see why they wouldn't chew through plastic pipes.

[journeyman Mick]

A plumber mate down near Brissie refuses to use anything but copper because he's had to replace rat damaged pipes.

Mick

[Bleedin Thumb]

I've just spent the last 2 hrs trawling through information about the dangers of PVC.

I will never buy a tray of meat from woolies with glad wrap on again.

What about tupperware containers.....Jeez I feel sick.

If half this information is correct (some of it is obvious scare mongering by greenpeace etc and some is propaganda by the industrial lobby) some is informative and unbiased.......

What is up with this world where corporations put profits above their customers health ?:((

[silentC]

What is up with this world where corporations put profits above their customers health ?
Can you believe you just asked that? :wink:

PVC has nothing on tobacco and asbestos

[Bleedin Thumb]

Can you believe you just asked that? :wink:




Yes, sorry about that a momentary lapse of cynicism:-

[Master Splinter]

The first 15 pages of results on Google for PVC dangers seemed to be mostly greenpeace/blogs/consumer concerns and paranoia sites.

I hate to say it, but the members of these sorts of organisations would happily sign the petition to ban the use of dihydrogen monoxide*. Well meaning, but not a clue (and that's discounting the automatic anti big business slant that often goes with them).

This site (http://www.stats.org/stories/bogus_toy_danger_nov27_06.htm) likes to actually check what they are claiming by actually looking at the research findings, rather than just running the latest scare story verbatim.



* A major component of acid rain, found in tumors, indicated as a causal factor in many fatal car accidents, causes rapid corrosion of steel, and overdosing on it is fatal.

[pawnhead]

Hi, all

Our bathroom is being renovated. The plumber just installed hotwater pipes behind the wall today. I noticed that majority of pipes are made of copper but some are not, they look like black plastic and about 50cm to 80cm long. The plumber said they are used to prevent vibration when the tap is turned on. As far as I know, in the old days, all hotwater pipes were made of copper/brass.

Is there something wrong or I am far behind new technology?

Thank you

JessieIt sounds like some kind of hammer arrester (http://www.plumbingsupply.com/waterhammerarresters.html).

[pawnhead]

A plumber mate down near Brissie refuses to use anything but copper because he's had to replace rat damaged pipes.

MickThey ate out a trap on a sink that I had just sitting in the garage. Chewed out a big hole in it for god knows what reason and they've chewed through a few of my cables as well. I hope they don't start on my drainage.:o
I've heard that they're putting some kind of poison to repel them from cable nowadays. I don't know about PVC but it's a real problem if these ratbags can get sustenance from sparks and sewer services. :((

* A major component of acid rain, found in tumors, indicated as a causal factor in many fatal car accidents, causes rapid corrosion of steel, and overdosing on it is fatal.
That's nasty stuff alright. Watch out for it, it's all over the place.

[Bleedin Thumb]

The first 15 pages of results on Google for PVC dangers seemed to be mostly greenpeace/blogs/consumer concerns and paranoia sites.





I hate to say it, but the members of these sorts of organisations would happily sign the petition to ban the use of dihydrogen monoxide*. Well meaning, but not a clue (and that's discounting the automatic anti big business slant that often goes with them).


This site (http://www.stats.org/stories/bogus_toy_danger_nov27_06.htm) likes to actually check what they are claiming by actually looking at the research findings, rather than just running the latest scare story verbatim.




Yes MS as I said in my post I am aware that there is a lot of hippy dippy scare mongering.
But you have to be aware that even when you have a site claiming "We do not earn any income from the chemical Industry" that it doesn't mean that thet are not set up by the industry and get there incomes stream through a third party.

I must admit I didnt read the site blurb that you linked to because as soon as I opened it , it looked like the other "We want to debunk those damn greenies that are spreading these lies" type sites. My oppologies if I'm wrong.
Try this link which I found very unbiased and they manufacture childrens toys!http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm

[bricks]

The water pipe they use is poltybutelyne, it is a smoother bore than copper and is also a larger size slightly, eg the copper 1/2 inch is now 18 mm and the 3/4 is now 22mm so the pipe is actually bigger and flows better. There is nothing wrong with it in my job i have tested it under pressure, they ussually blow at (8-9000 kpa) and even then the pipe splits and the joint stay put,.

Pex pipe is used for high pressure gas and has the added benefit of being hard wearing, Its also used for hospital type applications because hospital pipes are often super heated overnight to kill bacteria and the regular pipe cant handle it.

[silentC]

The water pipe they use is poltybutelyne ... Pex pipe is used for high pressure gas

Better tell these guys that, they sell PEX as water pipe:

http://www.iplex.com.au/iplex/products/futurek2.shtm

[Honorary Bloke]

Pex pipe is used for high pressure gas and has the added benefit of being hard wearing.

Pex water supply lines are now becoming standard over here in many cities, especially as the price of copper escalates. While it is expensive, the time saved in labour to install it makes it worthwhile. And you can control the various lines much more easily as it uses a manifold system, not unlike the electrical mains breakers in the house.

But if the house is built on a slab, the pex usuallly runs through the attic. It can be buried in the slab but must be sleeved wherever it penetrates in or out. It would probably be even more widely used except for a lack of trained installers.

[pawnhead]

Pex water supply lines are now becoming standard over here in many cities, especially as the price of copper escalates. I believe that you're allowed to do your own plumbing in the states. Is this the case Bob?

[bricks]

Silent C,
If you click on your own link, go to the top of the page and click water supply you will come to a page that has the products they use for water supply i dont see pex pipe here, i do see iplex pro fit which is polybutelyne.

If you go to plumbing you will see Iplex future 1 pipe which is a pex gas pipe.

Future 2 is a new product and i have never ever ever seen it in a domestic situation, only comercial.

Pex pipe in australia is really only used for gas or comercial installations such as hospitals which you so kindly neglected to quote.

Jessies pipes are black, Iplex pro fit is grey,Iplex future 2 is grey, what he has is Rehau pipe, which once again is polybutelyne.

Pex wont eliminate Poly because it costs more, plumbing ( like everything) is a profit driven industry if it costs more it aint being used.

[Honorary Bloke]

I believe that you're allowed to do your own plumbing in the states. Is this the case Bob?

To some extent, yes. You can do your own plumbing for:

Repairs to existing fittings and fixtures (for example, replace a hot water heater, fix a leak, etc.)

New fittings and fixtures that do not require a building permit to install (for example, replace a tap, tap an existing water line to run a new water line to a different room, etc.)

In fact, you can do your own plumbing even if it does require a permit, but you will have to have it inspected by the local building commission. About the only plumbing requiring a permit would be connecting directly to the city water line or changing the footprint of your home (adding a room).

[Honorary Bloke]

Here is a link to more than you ever wanted to know about PEX plumbing, :)

http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html

[journeyman Mick]

Bricks,
maybe Pex isn't used for plumbing in SA, but it sure is in Qld. And it's definitely Pex, not polybutylene.

Mick

[silentC]

If you click on your own link, go to the top of the page and click water supply you will come to a page that has the products they use for water supply i dont see pex pipe here, i do see iplex pro fit which is polybutelyne.


PLEX FUTURE K2 Pipe is manufactured from Cross-linked Polyethylene and is joined together with either a high performance plastic - polyphenylene sulphone (PPSU) or dezincification resistant (DR) brass fitting with a fixed stainless steel crimp sleeve.

Electron beam cross-linked Polyethylene (PE-Xc) is an advanced thermo-plastic material designed for hot & cold water systems in both domestic and commercial applications. PE-Xc heating pipes are produced with a diffusion oxygen barrier.

Sometimes it helps to actually read what's on the page instead of just looking at the headings.

[silentC]

Here's some more reading for you to ignore:

http://www.flowpex.com.au/piping.htm
http://www.toolbase.org/Techinventory/TechDetails.aspx?ContentDetailID=598&BucketID=6&CategoryID=9

[Cabbie]

I hate to say it, but the members of these sorts of organisations would happily sign the petition to ban the use of dihydrogen monoxide*. Well


Haha lets all sign a petition banning water :P good one na most of these hippy ppl work on peoples lack of knowledge and love to brainwash them into believing anything. Geez just imagine what would happen if we belived everything we read on the net or in the papers. There was a case though of someone making a petition or something about "dihydrogen monoxide" saying how dangerous it was and loads of ppl fell for it. I aint sure where I saw or read that I just thought it funny because if they stopped and thought they would realise what it was hehe.

[pawnhead]

There was a case though of someone making a petition or something about "dihydrogen monoxide" saying how dangerous it was and loads of ppl fell for it. I aint sure where I saw or read that I just thought it funny because if they stopped and thought they would realise what it was hehe.There have been lots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide) of cases, but probably the most famous case of the gullible would have been the Viejo City Council: -
In March 2004, Aliso Viejo, California almost considered banning the use of foam containers at city-sponsored events because dihydrogen monoxide is part of their production. The issue was put on the agenda of the City Council after a paralegal found mention of DHMO online and did not realize it was a joke. The item was pulled from the agenda before it could come to a vote, but not before the city received a raft of bad publicity

[bricks]

?

[pawnhead]

Pex pipe in australia is really only used for gas or comercial installations such as hospitals which you so kindly neglected to quote.Have some respect for your elders sonny Jim. Someone needs to tan your hide with a switch by golly by gumbo by crikey! In my day, my old pappy woulda had me lickin his bootstraps for being so cheeky.


Sometimes it helps to actually read what's on the page instead of just looking at the headings.
A 26 year old who knows it all! Who would have thoughtThese young whipersnappers need to be bent over your knee and given a good paddlin'!

And all the "young Einstein" all can come up with is : -

?:p :hahaha:

PS I'd still like to know how many plumbers it takes to change a light bulb. :wink:

[bricks]

I am a construction manager for a nation wide plumbing company, we employ over 250 liscenced plumbers.

It is my job to know these things,
But im only 26,
Perhaps i should go back to trade school?

When new products become available, my company works closely with mainly S.A. water and the office of the technical regulator to feild test the products. When products are approved for use, my company is usually the at the forefront of their introduction into the industry.

I asked my Iplex rep today why pex pipes are labeled as for Domestic Cold Water, he told me it is a technical term to distinguish clean water possibly for drinking from other water. Some pipe systems introduce contamination to the water.

Seriously im over it.

[silentC]

it is a technical term to distinguish clean water possibly for drinking from other water
Sounds like the sort of gobbledegook reps say when they haven't got a clue... If they're only for gas, why would they label them for domestic cold water? Sorry, but I wouldn't have accepted that from a rep because it doesn't make any sense.

[pawnhead]

Seriously im over it.I'm just havin a lend of ya Bricksy. I'm sure there's lots of good stuff in that brain of yours, ripe for pickin, so I'd better not paddle your bum just yet. :wink:

[bricks]

Seriously im over it.

[silentC]

You give up too easy.

Check these guys out: http://www.auspex.com.au/AuspexPipe/

No one has told them it's only for gas either.

[pawnhead]

You give up too easy.Try some Sorbolene (http://www.coolibar.com/05147.html) on that hide of yours Bricksy. :2tsup:

[bricks]

I was only trying to help poor jessie out, how do you think he feels causing this big rift between two woodies?

Silent C seriously i believe you, im not on the eastern side of the country, they may well use pex as standard, It will work, it is legal.

This i do know, In adelaide where i work, pex is not common, it is normally either pro fit brand or rehau brand, I have used it once, that was only in a hospital, because regular pipe wouldnt cope with the sterilization processes. Beleive it or not it was very interesting.

[NotAPlumber]

Hi everyone

I've been searching the web for a couple of days looking for info on PB pipes and any recorded problems (class action stuff in US very worrying) and stumbled across your site. Our new house is almost finished and it has a solar HWS installed with a gas booster. The house is locked up, so we can't get inside yet to have a good look around, but we know that they've used PB pipes throughout the house, with maybe a little bit of copper immediately off the solar tank and coming out of the wall where gas booster is. We don't know if this copper is a continuous line, or if they've hidden PB in the cavity inbetween.

It is possible that they've put a copper pipe to carry hot water from solar tank to the gas booster, then used PB pipes to carry the mixed water back into the wet areas. There is a tempering valve on the gas booster, but we don't know if there is another one in the roof immediately off the solar tank. They appear to be using the tempering valve not only to keep the water at less than 50 degrees in the bathrooms, but to the whole house, as well as stopping the uncontrolled solar hot water from damaging the PB piping (Iplex). They haven't asked us about this, they've just done it. Instead of a solar system with gas booster, we feel like we're getting a gas system with a solar booster, if they've put the entire water supply of the house through the gas HWS. We're also wondering about the water pressure, as water comes to the house off the mains, up to the solar tank on the second storey for heating, then down to the gas booster, where some of it gets sent upstairs again to the bathroom on the second floor (where the bath is).

We can see us getting stuck with an ongoing plumbing bill for a new tempering valve, or if disaster strikes, walls ripped out and the entire plumbing system replaced. There are several parties involved: the company that sold the solar HWS to the builder, the plumber hired by the builder to install it, Iplex who made the PB pipes, the water authority (pressure and chlorine in water supply) and the company who made the gas booster system. Making a warranty or insurance claim could be impossible, as everyone would blame everyone else.

So, my questions are: how long has PB been used in Australia or elsewhere and have there been any problems in Australia? Have any of you any experience of solar HWS used with PB pipes? Has our builder and his plumber done the right thing here, or just the cheapest options, which leaves us with a huge mess.:C

Hope you can help

[silentC]

I'm not a plumber either but here's what I know having looked into them myself. The gas booster should only come on when the temp from the solar falls below the threshold temp. The water from the solar tank comes through trhe booster. If the temp is higher than the threshold, the water just passes through. If it is lower, the gas booster will switch on.

It is also standard practice (probably compulsory) to fit a tempering valve to the outlet side of the HWS so that the hot water supply to the entire house is protected. We have one one ours. There is also a pressure restricting valve and a non return valve on the inlet side.

[journeyman Mick]

Tempering valves are mandatory in all new work. I've fitted PB piping to a large boat (accomodation for 48) with 8 bathrooms, plus an extra 2 toilets plus a commercial kitchen (and yes I know they're called heads and galleys). PB was used because it was an aluminium boat and copper tends to eat holes through aluminium via electrolysis. The boat has been in constant service for about ten years now, and no problems with the plumbing besides some initial failed fittings due to poor placement/angles and movement with extreme weather situations, everything has been fine.

Up till a few years ago, PB was being used very extensively on quite a few communities up on Cape York as their water supplies were attacking copper piping. I believe that it's now mostly been superseded by PEX.
PB specs call for (from memory) the first metre of line out of a hws to be
copper.

I don't believe they've done a dodgy on you.

Mick

[bricks]

That sound like pretty cheap nasty but still acceptable way to do it, the builder should have asked if you wanted un-tempered water to the kitchen and laundry, But its not illegal i dont think.

The copper from the solar panel is because in some states the water authority want to protect against "super heating" of the water on hot days, ( poly cant take it.)

What state do you live in, just wondering, im led to belive everywhere in aus except for my part of adelaide is using PEX pipe. ( easy fellas sarcasm is rife in this town)

PS I cant find anything on the popularity of Pex or PB, anywhere, only other peoples personal opinions.
Could Jessie Possibly ring the plumber who did the installation and ask him Brand and type? please.

Pretty please witrh sugar on top ill be your best fri... nah just do it

please

[NotAPlumber]

Hi, thanks for your replies. I believe that the regulations allow a metre of copper pipe immediately off the solar tank before the polybutylene pipes. I'm struggling with understanding how a metre of metal pipe will magically cool down water that may be hotter than 80 degrees in summer, to under the 60 degrees recommended for the PB pipe. It's not just plumbing that you need to understand, it's physics, plus chemistry if you start to think about the effect of chlorine on the PB.:?

I know that they might have met the regulations and the Australian Standards, but maybe these are wrong. We've had lots of problems with the builder (so have many other people), who are not interested in doing the right thing by their clients. I don't think that it's acceptable to have to boil a kettle to wash up your dishes, or to have your gas booster firing up to run a bath for the kids, when you've got a tank full of solar heated water that goes down a floor to the gas booster and loses pressure and temperature before going up a floor again. If this is all allowed under regulations and standards, then something's wrong with them!

Does anyone out there have solar HWS and PB pipes? Why is pex being used elsewhere in Australia rather than PB?

[bricks]

As i said bloke, Cheap nasty but is legal,
The super heating i am referring to, i know not much about but apparently it occurs within the solar collector near the connection point, I cant really say much more than that, might be like clean jocks and getting hit by busses, Just an old wives tail.

[Designsync]

NAP, friction losses one storey up, down and up again will be minimal. The pressure down will gain at the same rate as pressure up...roughly 10kPa per metre (actually 9.81kPa). Therefore no difference between going up one storey or up and down 1000 times then up one storey (disregarding friction loss).

As for the gas fired booster. It will only boost if the solar water is not at 65degC (or whatever the thermostat is set at). So I guess you could say solar boost on hot days and gas boost on cloudy/cold days. Is there a circulating pump between the gas booster and the panels? Should be! This will keep water circulating from your panels (or solar holding tank above the panels) to your booster keeping the water at a constant temperature...much more efficient than a stand alone gas hot water unit.

IMHO the pipework circulating beween the solar panels and boost unit should be copper, because as you say, the temperature may get hotter than 60 deg C. Again, my opinion is that the pipework from the gas boost to the tempering valve should also be copper. Tempering valve to fixtures can be Rehau, PeX, PB whatever, as long as its approved.

Some local authorities now request that all water be tempering including kitchen and laundry. Check with your local council on that one.

If the tempering valve ever needs replacing use a reputable brand like RMC.

BTW I'm a hydraulic drafty, not a plumber!

[NotAPlumber]

Hi Designsync

No, there is not a circulating pump from gas booster on ground floor to solar tank on 2nd storey. The water authority are trialling reducing the water pressure in some suburbs to reduce useage and we have have experienced problems with hot water from our old instantaneous gas unit before, as the pressure seems to drop very easily in our area. It just takes a few people to have their reticulation on.

There is copper pipe from gas booster to tempering valve. Generally speaking, they've put copper pipe where it can be seen - from tank to where it enters the wall cavity, and where it emerges in roof cavity above laundry. It's the bit inbetween we're worried about! The solar HWS manufacturer says it should be copper and others have told us that, such as plumbing licencing people, but if the standard doesn't specifiy, then it doesn't get done.

We should get access to the house soon and today I've bought a thermometer to test the water from the hot taps. The regs give a maximum of 50 degrees for bathrooms, but there is no requirement for builders/plumbers to give client the choice of having warmer water in kitchen and laundry.

I've managed to get hold of the main Australian Standard on water heaters, so I've got some homework to do trying to make sense of that - really hard when you're not a plumber. I might have a few more questions for you all later.

Thanks