Are public servants allowed to lie?

[journeyman Mick]

Seriously now, what happens if a public servant is caught lying? Let's say, for arguement's sake, :rolleyes: that I've asked an assistant commissioner for something or another a valid question related a certain shortcoming in their procedures relating to the safety of volunteers. I get back an answer, (which BTW was pretty unsatisfactory) Later I request and get a document which proves my point about the shortcomings and also shows beyond doubt, that I was told a bare faced lie.:o So what hapens now? Who do I go to in order to get this person booted up the backside, and more importantly, to get the activities of this government body scrutinised?:?

Mick

[rodm]

Ombudsman, Local Politician, Media, Crime and Corruption Commission for your state and choose depending on nature of your case and how hard you want to sting.

[Shedhand]

The Peter Principle is the mechanism by which all Public Servants progress up the career ladder. (Note: The Peter Principle prescribes that a person is promoted to their level of incompetency). Bearing this in mind it is fair to say that Public Servants don't lie (except when they are instructed to by their masters - the politicians) it is just that being an Assistant Commissioner, he/she has reached the zenith of their career and are totally ignorant of the truth of the matter - in fact, any matter for that matter. So the best you can hope for is to make public what the public already knows; that, fear not, the Peter Principle is alive and well in Queensland. :shrug:

[Ashore]

Mick you have hit the brick wall if you try using the government set up bodies to deal with this
The only answer is a JOHN LAWS type show , applying to the ombudsman or the self regulated type ways will only leave you frustrated beyond belief as they all cover each others a$$es
How far are you willing to go with this if all the way try the Radio and TV's current affairs it will cost you a lot of time and effort, but if it is worth it to you go for it:2tsup:

[Rocker]

Mick,

I agree with Ashore. An indication of how seriously the Queensland government wants to be subject to accountability is the recent legislation exempting Ministers from criminal liability, if they are found to have lied in Parliament.

Moreover, the history of the experiences of whistleblowers is profoundly discouraging. In the light of this, you might want to consider whether you have too much to lose if you become one.

Rocker (who was once a public servant)

[Iain]

In Vic the situation used to be placed back on the person in question, eg: on one occassion a member of the public wrote a letter of complaint to the Director General about my handling of a matter (unfounded but besides the point).
The DG then sent this letter to me to draft a reply, which I did, outlining what a conscientious individual I was and how out of character this appeared, this response was then typed up by the DG's secretary on his letter head, signed by him and sent.
End of story, and I doubt the DG even read the letter or the response.

[echnidna]

The Peter Principle is the mechanism by which all Public Servants progress up the career ladder. (Note: The Peter Principle prescribes that a person is promoted to their level of incompetency). Bearing this in mind it is fair to say that Public Servants don't lie (except when they are instructed to by their masters - the politicians) it is just that being an Assistant Commissioner, he/she has reached the zenith of their career and are totally ignorant of the truth of the matter - in fact, any matter for that matter. So the best you can hope for is to make public what the public already knows; that, fear not, the Peter Principle is alive and well in Queensland. :shrug:

In plain speak this means,

Don't waste yer time worrying Mick coz nuthin will happen.

[DavidG]

journeyman Mick

Heads he wins, tails you loose.

Keep the paperwork in a safe place for any future enquiry and get back to your wood work.

Not worth the effort or pain you will suffer.:no:
It is all part of their job.:~

[bitingmidge]

Mick,

Since you are already suffering, there's no point in holding back!

A clear letter to the Crime and Misconduct Commission claiming Misconduct (that is important to separate it from all the other punters with their blanket claim), setting out your evidence clearly is your one shot.

Don't expect any result, but a small investigation will get under the skin of the miscreant.

At the same time send a SIMILAR (not identical) letter to the ombudsman with a copy to your local member (hand delivered at an interview if possible), implying that the misconduct needs to be investigated.

Your aim is not to win, just to cause grief. Don't forget at the end of the day, if you apply enough pressure, the turkey will end up on indefinite stress leave, and you don't want to push him that far.... just keep him annoyed not stressed enough to get leave!~

Stalk him/her/it with paperwork!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[Grunt]

Lying seems to be acceptable at all levels of government, from the very top down.

[Vernonv]

I think it's more than just accepted, it's a job requirement :oo: ... the higher up you are, the better liar you need to be.

[Toolin Around]

You won't find that you'll get anywhere unless you have the lie recorded and or it was written down by the liar. If they lied to you in the beginning they'll lie to whom ever conducts any sort of investigation brought on by you and say they never said and that you are the liar...

Whether you can prove it or not, if it's someone you may have to do business with in the future or thier colleagues it maybe best to let it go. Cause they will remember you and be even less inclined to help in the future. In fact they maybe more on the vengeful side.

[Shedhand]

Speaking as a former MP I just thought of another tack. Find out who the Minister responsible for this turkey is and contact the Minister's senior media adviser (or the Government media office) and tell them your story. Give them 48 hours (2 days) to get back to you with a satisfactory response or you'll go to the media.
Believe me mate if the issue has the potential to embarrass the government and/or the Minister they will cr@p themselves and do something about it.
Been there, done that.
The first meeting of the day for any Minister worth their salt is with their Senior media adviser to discuss what issues may or have already arisen which needs action or spin.
Cheers

[womble]

Speaking as a former MP I just thought of another tack. Find out who the Minister responsible for this turkey is and contact the Minister's senior media adviser (or the Government media office) and tell them your story. Give them 48 hours (2 days) to get back to you with a satisfactory response or you'll go to the media.
Believe me mate if the issue has the potential to embarrass the government and/or the Minister they will cr@p themselves and do something about it.
Been there, done that.
The first meeting of the day for any Minister worth their salt is with their Senior media adviser to discuss what issues may or have already arisen which needs action or spin.
Cheers

sorry, this is Queensland, the gov here seems impervious/uncaring/unwilling to act with all embarrassing issues regardless of how serious...:no:

[AlexS]

sorry, this is Queensland, the gov here seems impervious/uncaring/unwilling to act with all embarrassing issues regardless of how serious...:no:

Wrong side of the election, I guess.

[bitingmidge]

Wrong side of the election, I guess.

Nope.

Re-elected without fuss despite being probably the least competant administration in the history of the State!

When you've completely screwed the Health System, Infrastructure Generally, Education, Roads and Water Supply and get re-elected anyway, you have a mandate to say and do what you like! :C :C :C

P
:((

[Shedhand]

Nope.

Re-elected without fuss despite being probably the least competant administration in the history of the State!

When you've completely screwed the Health System, Infrastructure Generally, Education, Roads and Water Supply and get re-elected anyway, you have a mandate to say and do what you like! :C :C :C

P
:((No Midge it's nothing to do with how the government has managed (or mismanaged as the case maybe) its an unfortunate function of a totally inept opposition. Same here in Tassie. The Opposition parties here (Liberal and Greens) are a disorganised rabble who squabble among themselves all the time. It didn't matter that our Health and Education systems were in utter disrepair, the punters just didn't trust the opposition to fix it because they couldn't sort themselves out. Better the devil they knew who at least got the economy moving and unemployment down. :blahblue::blahblue::blahblue:

[journeyman Mick]

Just reassuring you all that this is not causing me any grief or suffering at all and I'm definitely not losing any sleep over it. It's actually an enjoyable diversion for me, had a meeting with three very high ranking public oxygen thieves last month and watched them squirm when I told that that I was intent on causing maximum embarressment in the media if answers weren't forthcoming. :D (Perverse pleasure I know, but you gotta find your pleasure where you can) Since then I've obtained written proof of this lie I'm talking about, and it's all water tight: Letter from X saying one thing, official document (legally obtained) from same department clearly proving that either:
a) he's a total incompetent that doesn't know how to access information, or:
b) he was lying through his teeth.

I've also found proof (again, all in writing, official documents) that people in this department acted in a manner that was highly unethical and possibly illegal.

I'm waiting on some more documents that I've applied for under the Freedom of Information Act which should also contain lots more highly embarressing stuff.

My question of whether lies were allowed was very naive I realise, but I did mean it. I assume they're not meant to, or at least they're not meant to get caught doing so, :rolleyes: but I was really wondering if they were duty bound not to lie.

Mick

[rodm]

Mick,

There should be a "Code of Conduct" or such outling an officers responsibilities and behaviour in the workplace. Ask for a copy or search the Web as it should be a whole of Government policy.

I expect it will be a fairly weak document in terms that it can only be used in an Industrial Arena for dismissal or reprimand.

A Public Servant is not above the law and if they have done something unlawful then they can be prosecuted.

Lieing is an can of worms - can you prosecute a used car salesperson, a bank manager, real estate agent or your partner :wink: for telling you a falsehoood?
I don't think so but you can take action on a consequence caused by telling that lie.

Also a person when convicted of a crime does not get prosecuted again because they pleaded not guilty. I hope that makes sense.

I am no laywer and it would be interesting to get other opinions more qualified than mine. Sounds like you are having fun.

[Ashore]

but I was really wondering if they were duty bound not to lie.

Mick

Mick they always seem to use the word " misleading " , like "misleading the parliament" and never say he/she lied when we all know that they do lie, makes you wonder how much of "Yes Minister" was true and how much was written by the script writers just for the show :rolleyes:

Rgds

[dazzler]

Hi Journeyman

This has a familiar ring to it. A Fire Service Asst Commissioner :? .

Report it to the Ombudsman.

Then put it in a drawer and "forged abooood it ":2tsup:

cheers

dazzler

[Shannon]

Hi Journeyman Mick,

I am glad that you are willing to stand up for this belief. A lot of us (myself definately included) can resign ourselves to the old adage that they will just get away with it anyway so why put yourself out there for more greif.
But the fact is that if more of us stood up to this sort of thing then change would have to happen. If enough of us decided that injustice was wrong and that those supposedly representing us were not above the law, then they would have to start looking at their behaviour more closely and realising that covering themselves and working for personal or party gain is not what it is really about.

Good on you, I hope that next time something like this happens to us cynical ones that we choose the path you have chosen in standing up and being counted for what is right.

[E. maculata]

Do what you gotta do Mick, Sheddies suggestion has more than enough merit, have done similar in the past myself, but not for such high ideals.
BTW self respect is not overrated, even if no-one else knows what Michael achieves he will know.:2tsup:

[journeyman Mick]

Bruce,
when I achieve what I set out to do in this matter a lot of people will know, and more than a few people will wish that they had acted otherwise.:wink:

Mick the crusader

[Shedhand]

The trick is to let the evidence speak for itself. If you go into this as an angry crusader out to hang this guy the shutters will go up and they'll tar you as a 'nutter' (a term politicians use to describe pesky constituents). Go for it with this in mind,
:war:
Cheers
Mike
PS: wish I could be there to give you a hand. I love this stuff... mwahhhhhaaaaa

[journeyman Mick]

Sheddy,
I've gone to great pains not to look like a nutter (just threw that crusader tag in there for a joke). The evidence does speak for itself and is quite damning, I'm just waiting on a FOI application to come through so I'll have some more. I'm just amazed that someone would lie like this when it's so easy to get the truth and when an admission of shortcomings with proposed actions to avoid similar occurences would have been pretty painless. To quote the bard: "What a twisted web we weave, when at first we practice to decieve". It'll be a while yet before it all comes out, but when it does, rest assured I'll be posting a few links here.

Mick

[Shedhand]

Sheddy,
I've gone to great pains not to look like a nutter (just threw that crusader tag in there for a joke). The evidence does speak for itself and is quite damning, I'm just waiting on a FOI application to come through so I'll have some more. I'm just amazed that someone would lie like this when it's so easy to get the truth and when an admission of shortcomings with proposed actions to avoid similar occurences would have been pretty painless. To quote the bard: "What a twisted web we weave, when at first we practice to decieve". It'll be a while yet before it all comes out, but when it does, rest assured I'll be posting a few links here.

Mick
I await the expose and the outcome with bated breath....go get 'em...:2tsup:

[dazzler]

Hi Mick

Just make sure you keep your sanity and if you find that you are constantly thinking about it (constantly focused on it IYKWIM) then take a bit of a break. It would not be healthy if you think about this as you go to bed at night for example.

I had a similar experience with my last govt employer and had all the evidence to irrefutably prove wrongdoing and lying (and I am an investigator by trade) but in the end they still got away with it and the only silly bugger to pay was me lying awake at night. The bad guys simply said that they were unused to this type of incident and did the best that they could and would do better next time. Case closed.

Many govt ombudsmans offices have moved away from pecuniary action and employ educative or behavioural change to deal with these things.
(:~ )

Just a heads up and remember your sanity is more important than justice.

Good luck mate :D

[journeyman Mick]

Dazzler,
thanks for your concern, but you needn't worry, it's definitely not keeping me awake at night. I've actually got to push myself a bit to write each letter, not because I don't believe in what I'm doing but because there's heaps of other things with which I'd rather fill my time. More like a duty or responsibility than an obsession.

Mick

[coastie]

Go for them mick:minigun: