Draftman vs architect vs DIY

[Spelunx]

My wife and I have just bought a two-story house. it sounds glamorous, but it is far from it at the moment. We are planning a deck and patio to come off the second story, but are stuck for ideas. The house is basically a square box, with a flat roof, the deck is going to lift the look of the front of the house a fair bit.
A mate told me the other day that I should employ a draftsman to draw up the deck and patio, but I am not so sure. We are really stuck for ideas, ie what would look good attached to the house. I can do the deck plans, and have done a smaller project in the past, but the patio above is a bit out of my league. The whole lot has to be approved by Shire anyway, so I assume I need to get an engineers stamp on it.
Can a Draftsman give you ideas about the design of the deck, and what would look good? Or am I better off drawing it up myself and getting the engineers stamp on it? Will getting a draftsman to draw it up be money well spent in the long run?
I am pretty confused about the whole thing now, so any advice on similar projects carried out, good and bad, would be very welcome.

[Sir Stinkalot]

I may be a little biased but I would go the architect.
A draftsman will draw up what you tell them in most cases ..... if you have some ideas you provides some sketches and away they go.

It may be worth getting an architecture student at a local uni to have a look. When I was a student I would do basic design and drafting work for $15 an hour as it was about the same I was getting part time in retail at the time. They would be keen to give it a shot to get something down on a resume and you may end up with something that will blow you away for much less than a draftsman.

Please do not ask me to do the design for $15 per hour now :)

[johnc]

I would happily pay an architect for a concept drawing. A draftsman IMO will give a functional but dead boring rendition of whatever you want. The architect may make the builder curse but you are far more likely to end up with something worth having.

John.

[Honorary Bloke]

If you know what you want, use a draftsman. But . . when you want some imagination, choose the architect. They can often show you designs you would never have thought of. :)

[Spelunx]

Cheers guys.

Any ideas about the cost? I have been quoted from a drafty - $1000 to $2000, depending on what I want.

[journeyman Mick]

I've seen and dealt with shockers in both professions and a few rare gems. I reckon finding a good architect or draughtsman is even harder than finding a good tradesman. The problem also being that you can usually tell if a tradesman's work is crap well before it's completed but it's not until you start living in a house/using a commercial building that most people will realise if it's been badly designed. I would reccomend that you do what one does when looking for a good tradesman - ask around for word of mouth recomendations. When you find someone you think you might go with go and check out their work.

Mick

PS Stinky, how about $16.50 per hour then?;) :p

[bitingmidge]

Declaration of interest:

I have spent a good deal of my career practixing (spelling it that way saves me thinking about whether it's a "s" or a "c") as an architect and now spend my life employing 'em.

The above is all sage advice, and unless you have an exceptionally talented design draftsman (they do exist) you will get more value out of engaging an architect.

This is not meant to be critical or rude, but ... don't do it yourself: if you have to ask this question, you aren't qualified to do the job! ;)

Architecture as a profession has a reputation in some quarters, for time wasting, uncontrolled expense and providing "way out impractical solutions". However that reputation as usual has been earned by a minority, and the majority of practitioners are providing great value, usually creating added value on completion.

That's the main reason all major developers employ them, there is no legislative requirement to do so, and if there was a dollar to be saved by skipping on design fees, it would be saved!.

(end of mini rant!)

Check out the Archicentre website for some contacts in Perth who will give you the sort of basic advice you are looking for, then do as Mick suggests, it's very good advice!
http://www.archicentre.com.au/html/home.php

(There is another archicentre registered in WA - a building inspector so don't get them confused!)

It would be well worth your while to do a masterplan of your place, you'd be surprised how many times I've had people wanting to build decks (or something else) in the only spot the bedroom extension would fit "next year".

Cheers,

P

[Grunt]

My recent experience with architects was not a happy one. I should have given him $5,000 at the start and not wasted my time talking to him.

We got absolutely nothing worthwhile or usable from him. The design he came up with was not doable short of rebuilding the whole office block.

[Doughboy]

From personal experience the architect will definitely be pricey but he/she has an 'arty' mind and will definitely have a wider range of concepts and ideas than a draftsperson. As has been said if you know what you want then go with a draphty as you will save thousands on fee alone. If you don't know what you want and are a little wary of spending too much take a tour of display homes and poach some ideas for yourself.

If you draw it yourself you will get frustrated at the bureacracy (sp?) so I would not go this way.

Pete

[bitingmidge]

Grunt,

I've had a few of those experiences! And when I was practicing architecture used to take a bit of time to sort out whether I was on the same wavelength as the customer before taking the commission.

Not everyone does that! ;)

I've come to the conclusion that it's an easy mark. For some reason if you'd spent $2k too much buying a car, and then had to spend $3k fixing it, it would hurt but you'd get over it, but if you don't get satisfaction with an architect, it's something that stays with you for life!

People don't buy cars without getting them checked out.

I strongly suggest that before engaging the services of an architect, one engages him/her in a little conversation. DON'T hire anyone you don't get along with, DON'T hire anyone unless you've actually spoken to a few recent clients, and DON'T hire anyone unless you've seen examples of their work that you actually like!

By the way, it's a only a deck we are talking about here, so the fees really aren't going to be in the stratosphere, but it has the ability to add value or detract from the sale-ability of the house, so it's worth the enquiry. (It's not worth tens of thousands of dollars!)

Cheers,

P

[silentC]

When we built our house, my wife and I sat down (well I sat down, she stood up - note to self: buy another chair for the study) in front of the computer and drew up a floor plan. We looked at it from every angle, thought about what we wanted in a house, thought about what we liked and/or hated about every house we'd ever lived in. Looked at other people's houses. Then we printed it out and took it to a building designer. This chap is a glorified draughtsman, basically a guy who wanted to be an architect but hated Gerrit Rietveld, chardonay and lattes ;).

He took our floor plan, we sat and talked to him for about 2 hours. Told him what had to stay and what was optional. Then we went away, he mulled it over for a couple of weeks, had his draughtsperson draw it up (lovely lady) and we went in and had a look.

What he had done was to take our design, then after having actually been out to the site and checked it out, turned it all asre about so that it would favour the views to the south AND maximise the sun in winter, no mean feat.

So what I am saying is that there is a chap or chapess who sits between the architect and the draughtsman. The fees are not much higher, if any, than a straight drawing board jockey and they have ideas, an ability to transform the client's mud map into something feasible and they know the building regs inside and out.

And he was recommended to us by the council building inspector, which made it a no-brainer ;)

[Nevyn]

The way it seems to work over here at least, An architect comes up with designs and the draftsman tries to bring them into reality. The engineer works with the Drafty to get it past Shire.

Some Drafties are damm good designers, at lest they understand how things are put together and can work to minimise costs and such.

From what I have seen, best to get ideas and a rough scetch of what you want and then see a drafty.

I am a bit biased as my other half is a Drafty, the things she has to try work out from freehand scetches and such is amazing.

Regards from Perth

Nigel

[bitingmidge]

a guy who wanted to be an architect but hated Gerrit Rietveld, chardonay and lattes ;).

I saw a pommy copshow once that had a line that became my motto.

The bad guy was captured.

He remonstrated with

"You can't arrest me, I'm an architect" and to prove his credentials pointed to his car and said "that's my Porsche"!!

I've used that line often over the decades that followed, and usually manage to escape the charges, when the nice officers see my Suzuki. :cool:

Cheers,

P

[Malibu]

I did the same thing as SilentC.. Trying out some house plans, so sat down, did some rough sketches and when reasonably happy with the result, I did an Autocad drawing with the aim of passing it onto an architect to make it all legal and passable.
He took one look and asked why I needed him to do the drawings. I was a bit taken back by that because all he was going to do was copy my drawings and charge me for it, so he talked me into doing it all myself.
I bought a Timber Framing Manual and figured out how it should all go together (A good book of tables and lists to have) and only got an engineer involved to calculate joist sizes and spans (which you can't avoid anyway). Had it checked and passed by a private inspector so the only cost to me was engineers ticket and the inspector.
The good thing is that everything is exactly how I wanted it using my own ideas. Try a drawing yourself, then head into council and have a talk to them about what you want and what they require for the building regs. It might not be as hard as what you think :)

[Spelunx]

Cheers guys, some really good advice there. I did a ring-around down here yesterday, and have found a bloke that I think will be great, he is a draftsman but advertises himself as a designer. He can give us advice on what would look good, draw it up and get it stamped by his engineer.

He has already given me heaps of 'homework' to do, to save me money, things like going to the Shire to see if they have the original plans for the house, and also doing some rough sketches for myself. He said he can give us a free apraisal, which is great, and we can take it from there.

I need to call around a few engineers and get a quote from them as to how much they charge to look over drawings, and put the official stamp on it. At least that means I know how much I am actually paying for the draftsman.

Next I need to talk to the Shire, and see how long it takes to get approvals done, so then, if we do emply the Drafty, we can give him a time-line for completion.

Again, thanks for your help and advice, it is very much appreciated.

[A-Marks]

Hi,
When I read the thread I thought I would stop by and tell you what I think...
Firstly I am a Draftsman I hold certification in architectural design and have worked as well in civil, hydraulic and Survey drafting (my current main job)

This is how I deal with situations like yours -

Firstly I do a check of the structural integraty of your building.

Followed by an interview with the owners covering what they expect to do with the extensions verses their lifestyle, expectations of added value, budget etc.

Then a contract is drawn up between us.

I then create a sketch plan which is submitted to the client for approval this process generaly can go on for a while as the design sketches are Tweaked and bought into line with the asperations of the client v the reality of the project.

Finally working drawings are created and submitted to a structural engineer before being finalised - this might occure at any stage of the designing depending on the project.

The finished plan is handed to the client for signing off and then a building surveyer (sometimes called building certifier) is contracted to oversee the construction.

All paperwork is finalised and costs are paid (generally) to the BS

The project is put to tender - The winning builder would generally handle the sub contractors or if the Owner is suitable certified the project is handed over to him/her. otherwise - generally I would be heavily involved in the construction making sure corners are not cut NPI.
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The above is exactly what an architect would do. They are generally trained up to control large projects that return mega bucks however only 10% of architects actually practice ( this is a fact too) I believe this is because they are dreamers - Gravity Artists - wheras the shear bulk of designs handled by the average designer/drafter allows them the luxury of being able to design as well as have both their feet on the ground.
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An architect does 5 years of training - one of which is spent on the job as a Draftsman. Its worth noting also - the first year is spent designing dog kennels and painting schemes - an architectural designer (Draftsman) does 4 years of study to get an advanced diploma same deal - one is spent in the field as a designer. If a person chooses to contract an architect to design a deck I believe they are wasting the design fee - the Architect will carry out the job exactly as I outlined above but will probably take longer and will charge a percentage of the whole of the works ormega bucks whichever is the most, will insists on doing all the hiring thus paying contracters, hiring, firing etc and will spend an inordinate amount your time worrying over the colour scheme,,,eventually suggesting that you repaint the whole of your house - no just kidding! they are mostly good when not down the pub - still just kidding
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My suggestion -
Use your imagination -go to the library - look in heaps of magazines for basic concepts -
Contact firstly 2 or 3 draftsman to sus them out and show them photocopies of your ideas or drawings
also start to look for a builder as many have designers they work with.
and remember unless you have a large disposable income - and get off on the snob value ofusing an architect.
Use an architect for a big Hi Rise project
Use a designer or builder for a standard suburban project.
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My apologies to all the architects I have just put off side but hey, I could have been one too - only I chose to eat regularly.
I do value your work - I think cultural identities are created through architecture where would we be without the likes of Glenn Murcutt who incidently has an autobigraphy called "Touch the Earth Lightly"or more importantly Russell Hall -
whenever I see an amazing structure it's always by an architect but housing? much harder to pick because as you are acutly aware of there are a ton of hot designers out there with the tickets to design just about anything and run the whole show in the bargain

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[ausdesign]

Wow !

[Spelunx]

Wow !



I was thinking the same thing.

Thanks for the awesome post, I am sure people reading this thread into the future will have much food for thought!

[Mcblurter]

Just come across this doing a search so thought would add my experience to it.
We wanted to add a large living room to our house. A few years back we got a "Green" architect to come and give us some ideas. He suggested to pull out all the walls and do a whole lot of things we didn't want to do. His idea was almost of, you have this whole block, imagine what you could do with it!!!! "I don't add on rooms" was his final comment! Also I couldn't work out how green it would be making larger rooms that would need heating and cooling?
Then last year went through Archicentre. $500 gave us a consultation and supposedly a few design ideas. The architect was semi retired and was a was of time and money. He added nothing to our ideas then gave us a ballpark figure that with even my limited knowledge was way under what it would cost. Was getting desperate and decided to find a builder instead. Found a female builder who within ten minutes gave us ideas. Unfortunately she couldn't find tradies to work on our concrete house!! Again feeling down, then we remembered, hang on our friends just built and it looks great, who did they use. They told us a similar plight, they told an architect what they were wanting he came back with totally different plans and said, "I don't listen to the person, I listen to the house" at which they replied, "Listen to this, go away!" They got a builder who made really good suggestions, then got a draftsman to draw them up and discuss any issues. Builder liked draftsman as he was practical, if you wanted the best most expensive or cheapest he could work at what you were wanting. We have used the same builder and drafstman and they have both helped us with other ideas that are really good. Although some things we disagree on but we can discuss these without any angst.
Just about to start the reno, have completed a very detailed contract, so hope it all goes well.
Cheers
McBlurter

[bentley]

I would definatly talk to a draftsman, I was told that the definition of the skills of an architect is that of a draftsman with his head bashed in.