Wood Floor Stuff Up

[samrose]

Hi there,
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what has gone wrong with our new wood floor. It was laid on a concrete floor in a new house (pad well and truly over 6 months old and moisture seal also put on). It is jarrah planks and looked fine for the first 2 months or so but has since 'rippled', by which I mean, where the floorboards join each other they have raised up, so rather than being a smooth surface it looks rippled. So much so that the finish where the boards join has cracked in some places so it feels bumpy and almost cracked. Can anyone enlighten me as to what is going wrong. We are currently in negotiations with the guy we bought the floor off of, but he has yet to come and look at it.
Thanks in advance, Samara.

[Vernonv]

It sounds like the boards has absorbed moisture - possibly from the air or the slab.

What waterproofing was used on the slab? And were the boards acclimatised inside, before being put down?

[groovemachine]

Probably a few questions many are thinking.

1. Is it timber flooring, laminate or "planks"?
2. Is the flooring laid on battens?
3. Was the flooring dry before sealing?
4. When laid, was there allowance for expansion under the skirting

sounds like the "planks" are cupping due to moisture and expansion.
sometimes also due to sealing only one side of the flooring making it cup as well.

[TassieKiwi]

Sounds like you have to put the hard word in the bloke that installed it. See if you can find other people that he did work for. I had a bloke do a polished floorboard job for me that he really fcuked up, and it cost him $1000 :mad: as I wouldn't pay him the whole amount - you don't want to know.

[Big Shed]

This is a very common scenario and I would have thought that floor professionals would know by now. I have been in the paint industry for more years than I care to remember and wish I had a dollar for every time I was called out to view a problem like this or similar.
A 6 months old concrete slad still has a very high residual moisture content and putting a sealer over this is not going to stop the moisture from escaping, the vapour pressure of water under these conditions is extremely high. In addition to this, if the jarrah, or any timber, has a typical moisture content of around 10-15% than it will absorb this escaping moisture and will do the only thing it can, expand, particularly if the floor was finished with a moisture cured or 2pack urethane. If no allowance has been made for this, and that is extremely difficult to do, then the timber will find the the way of least resistance and curl up at the seams.
So what should have been done? Let the concrete floor dry until no condensation forms under a piece of plastic taped to the floor (sealed all round).
So what should be done now, take up the floor and salvage as much of the timber as possible, re-thicknessing if possible. Floor should be finished with water based floor finish which will be much more permeable to water vapour.
You will find you will have a claim against the "professional" that installed it.
Not the cheeriest reply, but I hope it helps.:(

[journeyman Mick]

Samara,
where is Dunsborough? If in Qld then contact the QBSA, in other states I'm not sure which (if any) government department licenses building trades licensing. Another port of call might be the consumer affairs/fair trading department. Judging by the fact that he hasn't even wanted to come out to look at the problem I'm afraid you might have a bit of a legal slog ahead of you.:(

Mick

[glock40sw]

G'day.
was it laid over ply or batten fixed to slab?
Was it a liquid barrier or sheet barrier?
What size is the flooring?
Was it secret nailed and glued?
Was it poly or water based glue?
how high is the slab from ground level?
Have any walls started to show signs of movement?
Has the whole floor cupped?
What finish was used?
Has all perimiter exterior work been completed?

What state are you in?

Get back to me.

[samrose]

Firstly, thanks heaps for the prompt supplies, secondly, it don't look good, do it?
Okay, in reply to questions,
I'm in rural W.A.
The floor is solid jarrah 85 x 13mm laid directly to the concrete with a moisture barrier applied to the concrete.
It was nailed down and liquid nails (or something similar) was also used as you could see bits sticking out when it was first laid.
It was allowed to settle for about 5 days before being sanded.
The finish, I believe, was water based, one that gives a more matt finish and more natural colour to the wood.
The rest of the house looks fine and the slab was built up quite a bit, especially at the front where the room is with the floor (all 75 sqm of it) and all exterior work has been finished and was finished when the floor was laid. There is also a concrete verandah floor wrapping the house.
There is no skirting on as yet.
The entire floor is cupping.
I think that answers all the questions. On the plus side the guy is coming out on Tuesday to look at the floor.
If its been stuck down with liquid nails won't it be almost impossible to get off?
One more thing, when we moved a rug from the wood floor we noticed the flooring underneath was paler than the rest of the room. What's that about? It was only there a couple of months and doesn't get any sunlight on it at all.
Ta, Sam.

[glock40sw]

Sam.
How are you cleaning the floor?
Are you wet mopping it?

If so, how wet does the floor get?

I have seen a similar thing happen to a Grey Ironbark 12mm Overlay floor that was direct stick fixed to a slab.
The owner wet mopped it to within an inch of it's life.
Stopped mopping at the floor leveled out.

Ask the bloke the brand of barrier and glue used.

It should have been Bostick ultraset or Selleys direct stick glue.

The glue should be polyurethane based not water based.

See what he says.

[samrose]

Trevor,
The floor hasn't been wet mopped at all. We normally vacuum then if necessary use one of those static mops that you use dry or only very slightly damp, and honestly it doesn't get done over with that too often anyway due to the shoes off policy in the house (we're on a farm). So none of our floors ever get particularly dirty (except for where my 18 month old daughter sits at the table at meal time).
Do you think that if slab moisture is the problem, that the boards could be sanded back and left unsealed until the whole thing dries out and then sanded again and sealed???
Sam

[Gumby]

One more thing, when we moved a rug from the wood floor we noticed the flooring underneath was paler than the rest of the room. What's that about? It was only there a couple of months and doesn't get any sunlight on it at all.
Ta, Sam.

You have to be very careful using mats for at least 12 months on a new floor. You need to let the floor darken a bit first. Also, move the furniture regularly. It doesn't have to get direct sunlight to darken.

[glock40sw]

Trevor,
The floor hasn't been wet mopped at all. We normally vacuum then if necessary use one of those static mops that you use dry or only very slightly damp, and honestly it doesn't get done over with that too often anyway due to the shoes off policy in the house (we're on a farm). So none of our floors ever get particularly dirty (except for where my 18 month old daughter sits at the table at meal time).
Do you think that if slab moisture is the problem, that the boards could be sanded back and left unsealed until the whole thing dries out and then sanded again and sealed???
Sam

I'd say, Yes slab moisture is the cause. However, without actually seeing it, I can't be 100% sure.

Don't sand them. If you do, and the moisture stabilises, they will then crown (edges lower than the centre) and you will have to resand again.

Wait and see what spin the salesman/installer puts on it.
Keep me posted.

[The Big O]

Moisture is your problem. Your slab wasn't dry enough. We have just done our study and entrance hall with 12 mm Queensland bluegum and it was stuck to existing ceramic tiles with sikaflex. When I cramped the boards, I didn't notice that the return at the doorway snagged and there was a section right in the main doorway that didn't stick down. Being an old smartie, I just poured about a gallon of Bondcrete under the loose boards. WRONG! The boards all cupped up at the edges and had to be routered out and replaced.
No good news for you I'm afraid. Your contracter should have known better.

[paddy17]

Hi there,
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what has gone wrong with our new wood floor. It was laid on a concrete floor in a new house (pad well and truly over 6 months old and moisture seal also put on). It is jarrah planks and looked fine for the first 2 months or so but has since 'rippled', by which I mean, where the floorboards join each other they have raised up, so rather than being a smooth surface it looks rippled. So much so that the finish where the boards join has cracked in some places so it feels bumpy and almost cracked. Can anyone enlighten me as to what is going wrong. We are currently in negotiations with the guy we bought the floor off of, but he has yet to come and look at it.
Thanks in advance, Samara.
i have the same problem. The floor had been left for months without any finish or cover while the builders finished. The sanding man came in done his job and put the first coat of tung oil on it. But the sanding didn't get rid of the turned up edges. The floor is all rippled. New karri floor...hard wood. Now what?

[glock40sw]

The timber floor should be the very last item installed in a home.
If the floor is installed while work is still being carried out, you are asking for trouble.

Plasterers don't give a toss about keeping your floor clean. they drop wet plaster all over it and them you are left with a floor that is not 100%.

If you need a floor for the work to be carried out on, lay a yellowtongue temp floor. Don't use high dollar hardwood flooring as a work floor.

[Larry McCully]

My question is.... How dry is the climate where you live and is the floor subject to any heating devises.
It may not be a excess moisture thing.
It is quite possible it may be that the boards may be back sawn rather than quarter sawn.
Back sawn boards will cup as they shrink as the boards are subject to dry conditions.

[DFA]

G'day.
was it laid over ply or batten fixed to slab?
Was it a liquid barrier or sheet barrier?
What size is the flooring?
Was it secret nailed and glued?
Was it poly or water based glue?
how high is the slab from ground level?
Have any walls started to show signs of movement?
Has the whole floor cupped?
What finish was used?
Has all perimiter exterior work been completed?

What state are you in?

Get back to me.


G'day Trev!
Time to pick the guru's brain again. Just reading samara's problem has got me worried.

As you know from my previous posts, I'm doing a 19mm battened 80x19 Manna Gum Floor on slab. The slab will be 4.5mths before timber floor is installed but the house is in sunny brisbane with the drought and everything, so the weather has been fairly dry but we had a some rainy days during construction.

Got a few questions:


Is ply base better than battens? (But I really want the traditional batten feel underfoot and cheaper)
Is batten still a good system then?
80x19 flooring will be secret nailed and glued to battens,
Is sheet barrier not as good as liquid barrier under the battens? ie can't glue battens to plastic, but can to liquid barrier (liquid is $1000 more than plastic as well).
Glueing battens down instead of just mechanical pin to slab is better isn't it? But is still a sturdy system if battens just pinned through plastic onto slab instead of glued?
My slab is 300mm above pad and is a waffle pod with polysterene void formers, I guess would stop most of the rising damp?
See attached site plan: I'll be pouring all the external concrete alfresco, back path, driveway and portico 1 week before flooring. You reckon we'll get much moisture transfer to the internal slab? I'll make sure I wrap external underslab plastic up against the wall.
I'm thinking of using water based poly as finish. Would this help timber movement and prevent edge bonding?Sorry for the long post.
Appreciate any advise in advance!

Cheers.

[Larry McCully]

If i may coment...
Battens are a good feel, a bit noiser than ply.
It is best to use splitz or powers fasteners spikes to anchor your battens. Glue is not recomended, anchors are.
A plastic sheet vapour barrier is fine. make sure you overlap the joins at least 200mm, also lap the plastic up the walls about 100mm and trim it down once your floor is installed. your fasteners should be 400 to 600 mm apart. Countersink the holes in the battens so that the head of the spike is not protruding above the batten. your floor will last a lifetime.

[Larry McCully]

and again.
make sure that all your timber floor components are stacked on site and under cover for aleast two weeks before you do any installation of batten or flooring. Water based poly is fine, but if you climatise the timber on site for thye min of two weeks then you will be able to use any type of coating , even solvent based poly.

[Groggy]

No one has asked if it is a heated slab - is it?

[Larry McCully]

No one has asked if it is a heated slab - is it? That is a good one, my guess is that it isnt, I come from qld and i know brisbanes weather. They get it cold their , but not like syd or further bown melb, act and others. Higher humidity their. A lot more rain. Also when i was doin floors their, i didnt come across any heated slabs,(not that they are not their). i have in syd but. But it is still a factor to consider. Samara , hows it their ?

[Groggy]

Qld is it? I had no idea where Busselton was, so a heated slab is unlikely. Still, answering the question with a 'yes' would certainly change things...

EDIT: Just re-read the thread, he is in rural WA.

[glock40sw]

G'day.
Ditto what Larry said.
Just make sure you use a good brand tape when lapping the joins of the poly sheeting. Cheap tape will let go in no time.

[Larry McCully]

Qld is it? I had no idea where Busselton was, so a heated slab is unlikely. Still, answering the question with a 'yes' would certainly change things...

EDIT: Just re-read the thread, he is in rural WA.hmmmmm, jUSTB TRYIN TO THINK WHERE I GOT BRIS FROM.... o I GOT IT , FROM THE thread about battens . sorry chaps.
in the case of rural WA. I recon it would get verrrry cold and dry their. add of course the heater, Waddia recon samrose, A bit cool where you are or shud i say was cold. Hmmmmmm ?

[Larry McCully]

Howdy trev, howz it mate ? http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

[glock40sw]

G'day Larry.
Flat out like a lizard drinking. 4 days until we knockoff for the year.
loading 3 trucks each day of flooring. 1 to Brisvegas, 1 to Newcastle and 1 to Sydney.

2 trucks 12mm Overlay to W.A. 1 to Melbourne.

2 trucks of 260x65x19 and 260x65x14 Block parquerty to Brisvegas as well.

My 1.5 acre storage shed is almost empty.

Big chrissy bonuses for my production crew this year.

Ho,HO,HO.

[Larry McCully]

awesome , thats a lot of wood . All the best to you and the company , some of us have to keep going through, mabe next year i will be able to pull up for a week or two.

KInd regards.


MERRY XMAS TO ALL FROM "CREATOR 1st HARDWOOD FLOORING,"

[samrose]

Firstly, I've only just realised there was a second page of postings, derr! Secondly, no the slab isn't heated. Regards the climate, it doesn't get overly hot here, tends to be a bit cooler than Perth. Doesn't get especially cold either as we're only 20 km from the coast. The boards were layed in winter and they cupped after around 3 months, so I don't think heat would be a factor.
The guy hasn't been out yet (and there have been words) and he says he has an independent inspector from the builders registration board coming down on the 17th of Jan, so we'll just have to wait and see. (Don't have much choice, do we?) I'll keep you all updated!
Sam

[glock40sw]

G'day Sam.
Yep. Keep us posted.

Don't stress about it. If it is not too bad, it can be rectified.
Relax and enjoy the festive season.
All the best.

[samrose]

Hi everyone,
Here is the long awaited update which answers nothing! Four guys came out, the guy who sold us the floor, the official guy from Perth (who looked very official and sombre) amd two other blokes whose role was unknown to me as a missed introductions. But anyway, the official sombre guy spent a lot of time looking at the floor, tapping it, measuring it with a ruler, moisture testing it, taking photos and making notes. He will apparntly know write up a report which gets sent to the guy who did the floor and he will ring us to let us know what is happening, which could take 2 to 3 weeks (probably more if we're realistic). And with that they thanked us and proceeded to go. I asked how the problem would be fixed and the guy who sold it said it would have to be sanded again.
So, yet again, we are left waiting and wondering!
(Though I have to say I feel somewhat better that it has actually been looked at now. The guy who did the floor does actually seem like a very nice person and I don't think he's going round deliberately trying to screw people, so I live in hope!)
So again, I'll post un update when we found out whats happening.
Thanks, Sam

[pawnhead]

I've got nothing to add except to say that all you flooring experts and people who've had experience with their own floors are awesome in the advice you're giving people.

There's a wealth of information on this site about flooring when you do a search. I've certainly learnt a lot and I've laid heaps of floors. Some that I would have done differently if I'd been here first. :2tsup: