Basic home wiring

[bishfactor]

hi guys, i'm looking to install a basic double plug socket under my weatherboard house for use in my cellar/"workshop". there are some lengths of white, triple-cable electric cable serving the sockets in the rooms above. they run along the joists and bearers for the floors above, then pop up through the boards into the skirting. how would i tap into these cables to install the double plug socket, without altering the whole house circuit? my chippy mate said it's easy and he has done several in his home but i'm really after a pictoral type plan for this task. i have bought a socket but am yet to buy the cables...any thoughts welcome.:)

[Vernonv]

Hi bishfactor,

Unless you know what you are doing, it's probably safer to get a sparky in.

It would be safer for yourself and current and future occupants of the house.

[Gra]

call a sparky electricity hurts

[stolar]

It is easy as anything if you have done it before. On the other hand if you have not doen it before maybe you should do some research first.
There are wiring regulations that you shoudl be aware of before you start any electrical work.
I'm all for DIY if, and only if, you are 100% sure that you know what you are doing.
I did my wiring but I am electrical engineer so I understand electricity. Because I understand the importance of doing it right, I bought and read through the Australi/NZ wiring regulations. Only then did I undertake the design of my house wiring layout. In the end I did get sparky to do some final work, in particular the switch board.

So my advice is, unless you are prepared to lear how to do it right first, do not attempt to "do it yourself". For a single socket it may be cheaper and easier to get someone else to do it.

[bennylaird]

If you have to ask how to do it then you shouldn't be doing it. Too dangerous and you leave yourself open to litigation. ie if you have a fire they will void your insurance if they can find a loop hole like a DIY powerpoint.

[silentC]

Not to mention that it is illegal to do your own wiring. The fine is something like $5,000 if you get caught.

[Pulse]

Not a lot of positive advice here eh...

Lets say someone wanted to do add an extra powerpoint, usually they would either run it from an existing powerpoint (so that three twin and earth cables terminate there) or they would add a junction box with screw terminals. The connector with two screws is for the earth wire as per regs. So in the junction box three reds are joined, three blacks are joined and three earths are joined. The sheath (white outer insulation) should be intact wherever the cable is visible. That pretty mush explains how someone would do it. Note that 2.5mm2 cable is the minimum for power points.

But my advice is get a sparky. The actually wiring is simple but the problem is that you need to know how many power points can be supplied by one circuit, what mechanical protection the cable needs and protection from weather etc. You should also check the earthing and polarity of the house wiring.

The pity about Australia is the fear of electricity perpetuated by everyone. There is a complete lack of information for the DIY market. Power points are available in Kmart, Big W and every hardware store. My bet is most aren't being installed properly. The solution is either:
1. restrict sale
2. give people information to do it safely themselves
No one is happy paying someone $150 to screw in a powerpoint they know costs $10.

Anyway good luck with your moral dilemma.

Cheers
Pulse

[silentC]

The pity about Australia is the fear of electricity perpetuated by everyone.
It's not a matter of fear. Whether you like it or not, legislation in Australia prohibits an unlicensed person from completing electrical work. I think it's a bloody brilliant idea to make it illegal for any idiot to do their own wiring, but that's beside the point.

For the same reason, I don't think it's a brilliant idea for people who DO know what they are doing to give advice on this forum because a) you don't know anything about the person you are giving the advice to - how do you know they're not a 15 year old kid? - and b) you don't know how many people are going to read it and try to apply it to their own situation.

It's not like you are down the pub telling your mate how to do it. How would you feel if someone reads your advice, gives it a go, and electrocutes themself?

I know enough about wiring to wire up a socket or a light or a plug but there's no way I'm going to tell anyone how to do it if they don't already know.

[Bleedin Thumb]

On ya Silent, well said, people have to be careful when giving advise that may lead to harmful accidents.
Electrical
Chemical
Structural
Just because you know what your doing doesn't mean that you should encouraging others to do the same.

[bishfactor]

jeez guys! the floodgates opened up there. whilst neither a "bloody idiot", nor a 15 year old kid, i totally appreciate where you are all coming from with regard to safety concerns, and the risk of the "have-a-go-hero" enthusiast tackling electircal issues. i shall call my friendly sparky and take it from there. adios.

[silentC]

Sorry bishfactor, not suggesting that you are an idiot or a 15 year old but you could be ;)

I reckon the best advice anyone on here can give when it comes to doing something that's illegal is "don't do it".

Pulse does have a point, in that a lot of people on not being able to get the right advice will go ahead and do it anyway and possibly stuff it up or worse. Maybe they should restrict sale of points and light switches etc in Bunnings. It's like leaving the key to the drinks cupboard on the table and telling the kids not to drink. Still, we have to work with what we have...

[pharmaboy2]

Pulse, agree.

Good thing, the only advice you provided was to seek out a sparky, plus provide a a short hypothectical situation.

Keep in mind in this once great nation and bastion of freedom, its also illegal to change a tap, connect storm water to drain pipes, screw down a sheet of colorbond and do 41kmh outside a school an hour and a half before the school opens on a day when its closed!!! But fortunately, we are all allowed to purchase and use apower saw above our head, a 3 phase welder without experience, P platers buy cars capable of 280kmh, and DIY shows encourage the use of a chainsaw for carpentry.....

ah, its a consistant world we live in........

[Eddie Jones]

Maybe, as a compromise, consult a sparkie, buy the cable he recomends then run it yourself. Nothing illegal in that, PROVIDING a licensed sparkie approves your wiring and connects both ends. Save you some folding stuff AND legal.

Eddie

[silentC]

ah, its a consistant world we live in
Agree, it's an inconsistent world we live in but that doesn't change the facts. Hypothetically, any mug can run wires and it doesn't take too much nous to work out how many powerpoints your wiring can handle. Hypothetically, half of the members of this forum, if not more than half, have done or will in the future do their own wiring. That doesn't mean that you should encourage people you've never met to do it.

If you feel that strongly about how it's messing up our once great nation that people can no longer lawfully install as many powerpoints and lights on a circuit as they think they need without really knowing what they are doing, why don't you lobby the government to change the legislation? And while you're at it, get them to put flashing lights on the 40km school zone signs so we know when we need to slow down.

[MurrayD99]

Hmmmmm. Probably not. Aiding & abetting. Taken in for questioning....

[pharmaboy2]

. Hypothetically, half of the members of this forum, if not more than half, have done or will in the future do their own wiring. .

mmmm, that was sort of the point, its not disimilar to the "dont speed then" response when someone gets a ticket, when reasonably obviously essentially every person speeds at one time or another. As you say, most have done some electrical work, but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy. ;)

Just for interest sake, and certainly not for starting an arguemnt (I think we all know where they go from here ;D ), the Uk with its very lax wiring laws (ie DIY anything you bloody like almost!) manages to have less than half our fatal electrocution rate - bit strange really.......

have a nice day ;)

[bennylaird]

Sometimes any mug can't run wires and their work can be hidden unless the sparkie does a good job of checking.

Just joining two wires can be a recipe for disaster. I've seen all types over the years. Wire stripped with a pair of pliers that should have been retired with Noah after he finished his little boat.

Half the strands missing, twisted with oily fingers and twisted back again till they are on their last legs, then hidden away in a terminal box to provide a lovely fire igniter. It's this sort of thing that could catch you out. Training should stop it happening and I see work done by DIYers which is much better than the average sparkie at times.

Common sense and I wouldn't advertise the fact on a forum open to everyone to browse if I was going to have a go.

Would like to see the statistics on fires caused by faulty wiring each year.

[silentC]

but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy.
I learned to wire a plug in high school when it was common knowledge - printed on the back of the packet.

I can see the point in speed zones, even if I sometimes break them. I can also see the point in legislating against people doing their own wiring, even though ... (read between the lines).

It's not a question of whether you should do it, or whether you should tell a mate how to do it. It's a question of whether advice should be given here on how to do something that is potentially dangerous and is illegal in this country at the moment (we're not in the UK).

I'd also be interested to know what would happen to the advice giver if someone, maybe not even the original poster, followed the advice in the thread. Especially if that person was a licensed sparky. There's a hypothetical for you. 15 year old reads how to wire powerpoint on the Internet, electrocutes himself in the process of trying it out. Always thought electricity was dangerous but read 'any mug can do it' ;)


the Uk with its very lax wiring laws manages to have less than half our fatal electrocution rate
Have you got a link to some stats on that, or is it "common knowledge"? ;)

[pharmaboy2]

Silent, I havent tackled the issue of whether people should or shouldnt provide advice - people have the right to judge their own actions in my book.

http://www.erac.gov.au/EracElectrocutionData20002001.htm

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm050627/text/50627w30.htm

to save you the maths, Aus has a rate of 1.8/million deaths by electrocution, and the UK has 0.5/million pop, so I was wrong, ours isnt double is 3 times worse than the UK. I just happen to know this because of an arguement with an ETU member who claimed all restrictions were delivering safety for the public not protection for the ETU members. It would seem that our safety record leaves something to be desired.

[silentC]

people have the right to judge their own actions in my book
Yes they do. I don't usually make a point of telling people they shouldn't give advice about this or that, I went down this line because you and Pulse seem to be chastising us for not sharing :)

Regarding the stats, I haven't got time now but before that can be meaningful to this discussion, you need to strip out the number that tells us how many people were electrocuted because of faulty wiring installed by someone not licensed to do it. Not even sure you can get that from your link.

I also note that fatalities have dropped since 1996/97.

[Malibu]

Power points are available in Kmart, Big W and every hardware store. My bet is most aren't being installed properly. The solution is either:
1. restrict sale
2. give people information to do it safely themselves


A good call!
In Victoria, we're bound by our licence and the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector to supply certificates of electrical safety.
This legal document is intended to stop the dodgy electricians from doing sub-standard work, and to stop the home wiring DIY'ers from doing thier own wiring. While I agree, the OCEI is doing a great job in preventing all of the above, it's still got a long way to go before it's all done 'right'.

First up: restrict sale.
Hoo-rah! Stop the hardwares and etc from selling electrical fittings to everyone that can't produce an A-grade ticket. I can't buy explosives because I don't have a powder-monkey ticket, nor can I buy certain chemicals without a pest exterminators licence. Why? Because that stuff will kill people, just as electricity does too.

Second: Information for doing it safely.
There's a course that can be done for the correct use, installation and upkeep of electrical systems. It's called an apprenticeship and takes 4 years to complete.

People get a bit narky with me when I won't tell them how to hook up their power points, or change a light fitting. I can't even go around and do it for them, because my licence doesn't allow it. It's not a perfect system but at least the system is there to try and save lives.
I'll put away my soap-box now :)

[fencepost]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now:)

[thatirwinfella]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now:)

hmm... let me shoot some holes in this.
1-there is an exam like everything else. it has a 30% pass rate on the first go
2- there is a practical exam. infact, there are three exams. they are seperate theory, prac and safety exams.
3-the apprenticeship has nothing to do with plcs, it's a generic apprenticeship that bores the industrials and confuses the domestics. They need to seperate the two so that it can be more specific. so unless they are lucky enough to have been taught how plcs operate than they have to pick it up as they go. perhaps your company should consider properly training their employees on what they are supposed to or expected to know.
4-apprenticeships are traditionally 4 yrs. with the safety aspects and regulations that need to be understand it is ludicrous to think that a high quality of workmanship and knowledge of their field can be taught in anything less. No one seems to question why chefs need 4 year apprenticeships or brickies or hairdressers. but sparkies... well, electricity can't be hard. i mean, working with something that you can't see but could very easily kill you couldn't surely be... dangerous. but it takes a long time to learn how to cut hair and make soup? okay.

pharmaboy, the UK is a very different situation to australia. In a very short time you can get from one place to another, hence a greater availability of sparkies in 'remote' areas.

Many of the australian deaths are on farms where sparkies are frequently hard to come by. travelling time greatly increases the cost of the job and many wouldn't be willing to pay.

[Pulse]

what have a fueled here.....!

I guess my view on society is all about personal responsibility. To many people think they are "entitled" to something. I think if you want something, work for it, if you do something stupid its your fault, not mine.

If a guy asks for advice I give it. He knows electricity kills, I know, everybody knows. Everyone needs to know their abilities. I've done some stupid things around the house in the past. If I had this forum then I wouldn't have made these mistakes.

I'll relate a story about my 15 yo cousin in South Africa. When I was there a few years ago he had a 240V water feature outside hooked up using speaker cable running into the house, under the mesh security door, up the wall and under the light switch cover plate!!!!

I wish he did read the forum!!

Cheers
Pulse

[Jack E]

I did my wiring but I am electrical engineer so I understand electricity.
Well there you go, all this time thinking electrical engineers had no idea and finally, one turns up who "understands electricity":D

Mate, please move up here, I will give you half my pay packet to work on the project I am on:)

I am sick of redesigning things and then having to explain to the engineers why their design wouldn't work and the new one will.

Cheers, Jack.

[Jack E]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union.
The apprenticeship is not jobs for the boys, it is experience based learning with the emphasis on practical learning. I do agree it has it's faults, namely that it is largely focused on domestic wiring which is a simple and minor part of the trade.
I won't waste valuable forum space debating the unions.
It is the requirement for a 4 year degree which I find frustrating. At the end of said degree an engineer is generally a whole lot less worthwhile than a fourth year apprentice as he has no practical experience.
He then spends his time designing overly complicated systems which more often than not, in a practical sense, need a fair bit of fine tuning.
On top of that, quite often the systems employed are amongst the most difficult and inefficient to install. (physically, not electrically)
I think you should have a trade background before being allowed to undertake an engineering degree.
Many qualified electricians would only need a year or two of training on top of their apprenticeship to be as good as if not better than 90% of book taught engineers I have encountered.

Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either.
I agree as far as domestic wiring is concerned.

I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now:)
Your exact problem there is that you are employing sparkies with only domestic experience. It as a catch 22 situation, these guys need practical experience to learn.
Perhaps you should embrace that and teach them.
In Australia at the moment electricans make alot more money in industrial construction than they will in mining/industrial maintenance. That is why most good sparkies are bolting up tray und pulling cables rather than making less money in maintenance roles.
I recently left a mine along with most of the other experienced industrial maintenance sparkies to make some money in construction for a while.

Cheers, Jack

[Guy]

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world to be told by some beauracrat that i need to go back to school for 4 years and serve an apprectiship before i can call myself a sparky legally here it is utter crap. In Schools in the UK they teach the kids how to wire powerpoint and plugs.
I went in several years ago to the OOCEI and had this conversation with some guy who commented that all this licencing stuff was brought in in the early 50's when the unions lobbied state govs as they were worried that the new migrants would take there jobs.
i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.
I dont know how many of you have visited new houses where wiring has been roughed in, but i would estimate that 70% of these are in breech of regulations as you see cables run in at all different angles.
New houses should be supplied with complete wiring drawings showing location of all cabling and sizes used, this would allow the homeowner, electricain be able to attatch stuff to walls without worrying if the nail he is knocking in is going to hit a hidden live cable. It would also allow the electrician to know how many power points are on a particular circuit if the homeowner is not confident in doing the work.

Hardware store should not be allowed to sell cable for fixed purposes, and stores like Bunnies should not allow there staff to give info on what type of cable and how to terminate, on too many occasions ive been in there and seen some kid 18-20yo telling and drawing for customer what he has to do. ( but dont they say on TV we have qualified tradespeople)

[Malibu]

i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.

The legislation was changed a few years ago (at least it was in Victoria, I don't know about the rest of Aus) and a new licence was introduced called "Disconnect/Reconnect". The idea behind it is to allow "like for like" replacement of anything electrical and allows any non-electrician to be able to do repairs, such as GPO (power point) replacement, etc, but not do new installations.
For some strange reason which I don't agree to, you have to prove you need the licence. All the fitters at work have one as part of their skills requirement, but there's a few other people around that were giving a flat "No..." when they inquired about doing the course (Such as: the robotics programmer and members of our technical department).
Unfortunately, they also exclude the general public from this licence, which I don't agree with because the main basis of the D/R licence is safety with electricity, and your home handyman would benefit greatly. It would also allow the DIY'ers a legal footing for home repairs.
I could be wrong, but if you're interested in the D/R licence, make some calls and see if you can get to do the course. You might be able to.

I have a feeling that the "keep it in the trades" part of the deal is a union related stipulation. Don't start me on unions!

[silentC]

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world
You're always welcome to go back.

[bennylaird]

After seeing the English plugs etc in Malaysia I'm supprised there aren't more fires etc. They were nasty, fuses inside most of them and so many different sizes to suit different loads.

[bennylaird]

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world


I watch the Pommy home shows on Foxtel where they do up a garden or fix up a house.

You have to be kidding, the 20 years is the other way round, they do things the way my Dad did when I was a kid.

[silentC]

After seeing the English plugs etc in Malaysia I'm supprised there aren't more fires etc. They were nasty, fuses inside most of them and so many different sizes to suit different loads.
But Benny, they are 20 years ahead of us mate, so it's beyond our ability to comprehend.

[bennylaird]

They had this stange double adaptor system with so many holes to suit all the different plug, only time I've seen a double adaptor catch fire. But it may be the dodgy Malaysian manufactured components, the english plugs wouldn't have cardboard cable securing devices.

[Honorary Bloke]

Now that this thread has been well and truly highjacked, I am enjoying the resulting um, discussion. Good to see you take the phizz out of the Poms for a while, since we're getting slugged with 4X2's on the American Measurements thread. :D :D :rolleyes:

It is not illegal here for a homeowner to replace like for like, but new work must be according to Code. Even so, I daresay a fair bit of our DIY wiring is dodgy. (Not mine, ;) as I always bring even like for like up to code if it needs it. And in my old house it often needs it. :eek: )

[bennylaird]

Cmon Bob, were talking real power here mate and the right frequency, not that dinky 110v 60Hrz stuff:D :D :D :D

See we can bag you in two thread?:p :D :D :cool:

[Honorary Bloke]

When I was but a lad of 9 or 10 tender years, I had learned in school that magnets somehow contained electricity. So, of course, in order to make a really powerful magnet, I put a wire on each end of the horseshoe and stuck them into the powerpoint. :eek: :eek: :eek:

The resulting spark traveled from one end of the house to the other and created an opportunity for my Dad and I to form a somewhat closer bond down in the basement afterward. :( Even our dinky 120 volt can hurt if you stick your tongue in the light socket. :D

[bennylaird]

Apparently a fresh 9V drycell on the tounge can do the job as well? Never actually seen a documented case though.

Had a student at TAFE stick an LED into the socket and then flicked the switch. Don't worry he will never do it again, took a few hours to get colour back into his face and for him to see properly. Doesn't matter how much you preach safety you still get duck heads like him.

[thatirwinfella]

The legislation was changed a few years ago (at least it was in Victoria, I don't know about the rest of Aus) and a new licence was introduced called "Disconnect/Reconnect". The idea behind it is to allow "like for like" replacement of anything electrical and allows any non-electrician to be able to do repairs, such as GPO (power point) replacement, etc, but not do new installations.
For some strange reason which I don't agree to, you have to prove you need the licence. All the fitters at work have one as part of their skills requirement, but there's a few other people around that were giving a flat "No..." when they inquired about doing the course (Such as: the robotics programmer and members of our technical department).
Unfortunately, they also exclude the general public from this licence, which I don't agree with because the main basis of the D/R licence is safety with electricity, and your home handyman would benefit greatly. It would also allow the DIY'ers a legal footing for home repairs.
I could be wrong, but if you're interested in the D/R licence, make some calls and see if you can get to do the course. You might be able to.

I have a feeling that the "keep it in the trades" part of the deal is a union related stipulation. Don't start me on unions!

the d/r licence is restricted to people with a business need for it, such as fitters/plumbers and hvac guys. it is so they can install pumps, air cons, hot water services without needing an electrician, and gives them an idea of what not to do... eg, if you disconnect that green and yellow wire from that water pipe, make sure you put it back.

[chrisp]

the d/r licence is restricted to people with a business need for it, such as fitters/plumbers and hvac guys. it is so they can install pumps, air cons, hot water services without needing an electrician, and gives them an idea of what not to do... eg, if you disconnect that green and yellow wire from that water pipe, make sure you put it back.

I don't think it is any thing to do with "need for it" - it's to maintain a closed-shop.

So it's "dangerous" for people to do their own wiring because they mightn't know how to do it properly - so we have regulations limiting who can do the work. But if you do want to learn the correct method and have an official disconnect-connect permit (S-permit) to do work around your own home safely then sorry you can't have one!

What a lot of crap we put up with - time to change I think. I think the UK or US system is better than ours!

I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures - the more that people know the correct procedures the better the electrical system will be.

[silentC]

I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures
Coming from someone with your user name, that is just too funny :D

[thatirwinfella]

What a lot of crap we put up with - time to change I think. I think the UK or US system is better than ours!

I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures - the more that people know the correct procedures the better the electrical system will be.


these are from a site frequented by US and UK sparkies. Yes, their regs are different to some of ours, but I'll let the pics speak for themselves.

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001034.html
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000705.html
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001041.html

...and you're telling me these are better systems?

[Cliff Rogers]

Mr Irwin, can you pls edit your post & remove the http:/ from in front of your links so they work. ;)

[Eastie]

A good call!
...Second: Information for doing it safely.
There's a course that can be done for the correct use, installation and upkeep of electrical systems. It's called an apprenticeship and takes 4 years to complete....


http://www.ubeaut.biz/iagree.gif

The day they legislate owner builders doing their own wiring is the day I'll go into grave digging - there'll be better returns than the stockmarket.

[boban]

This is always the result whenever someone asks for electrical advice.

I can't see the need for a four year apprenticeship. You could learn everything for domestic installations in less than 6 months. Some might argue that the time it took to read the Standards would suffice.

Im sorry if I offend, but unlike many other trades, skill is not usually associated with domestic electrical work.

Most the information you need is readily available on the net or to purchase from Standards Australia. If you cant understand the diagrams etc, you probably wont attempt it anyway.

What I find most annoying, and something I've noticed from the first day on the forums is that if a "familiar" forumite asks an electrical question, the approach seems to be somewhat different.

Perhaps all electrical questions should be answered with the following preface

"It is illegal, extremely dangerous and obviously not something you should attempt, but qualified electricians would do it this way"

I agree with Pulse's approach. If he follows the method knowing that it is illegal, extremely dangerous and not something that he should attempt, then his life is in his own hands.

[Eastie]

You don't offend me, but we do differ in opinions. If someone wants to do it legislation won't stop them. From time to time I'll trow my two bob in just like you. I suppose we could do a backflip to the 1950's and see trades used as fodder on projects like the snowy hydro. The problem with that is they learned from their mistakes and ensured legislation protected the trades and to this day they and other trades are offered protection by means of licenses to apply agreed standards that are backed by the governments we elect, employer associations and employee associations. Be it a building, plumbing or electrical license, there are long established and entrenched reasons for them.

What makes this a great place to live is the fact that we can and do challenge the laws and can have such discussion.....

[bennylaird]

Owner builders can always obtain a restricted license without the need for the full 4 years. Depends on what level you intend to work to. No problems with someone doing their own installation in consultation with a sparkie who will oversee the work and check it to his satisfaction. They do this with their apprentices so they know what to look for. But the thing is they provide the control. To do it by yourself without any help and physical inspection by a trained sparkie is like doing your own surgery. It might be fine but.....................

[pharmaboy2]

"To do it by yourself without any help and physical inspection by a trained sparkie is like doing your own surgery. "

I think doing your own surgery is a tad trickier!

I dont hear many people advocating a complete dissolution of the regs or licensing system, just more in line with most other western countries, that allow like for like replacement for the homeowner (not for the chippy to take on small electrical work!)

Current ones just say .. NO! Bit reminiscient of Nacy Reagan's version of drug education - "just say no!", doesnt work, hasnt worked, wont work - our electrocution rates are testament to that.

[bennylaird]

Yo do a replacement of what is already there implies that the wiring is already"checked out" by a sparkie. The DIYer will probably do a neat and safe replacement, often better than a trained sparkie. They will have enough nouse to kill any power before hand, probably the whole house. It's not a problem but I wouldn't adverise the fact that he has done it for obvious reasons.

What I object to is people who add new work without proper advice and a physical inspection. Someone decribing the procedure over the forum doesn't necessarily have the full picture.

Do what you feel is right but think of the consequences if you stuff up?

[silentC]

What I find most annoying, and something I've noticed from the first day on the forums is that if a "familiar" forumite asks an electrical question, the approach seems to be somewhat different.
Disagree with you there. My answer to anyone would be the same. Don't do it, it's illegal, get a sparky.

It's not a grey area, it's cut and dried. Not a question of how hard it is or whether or not people have free will. You're not allowed to do your own wiring, that's the answer when someone asks one of these questions. You can whinge about it as much as you like but them's the facts.

Would also be interested to know the legal consequences for the forum if someone followed the advice posted and something went wrong or they got caught? Hopefully none, but...

[silentC]

our electrocution rates are testament to that
You haven't established that. I was flicking through that link and there seemed to be a lot of categories, including licensed persons, unlicensed persons, members of the public etc and overhead lines, network assets etc. When you can give us a stat that shows how many deaths occurred in homes from incorrectly wired points and lights, then you have something to argue with. At the moment, you just have a number that shows how many people died from electrocution for whatever reason. At the moment, your number would also include people who died from electrocution after touching an overhead wire, people who died installing electrical equipment on the job etc.

If anything, if there is a higher rate of electrocutions in Australia than the UK, it says that we aren't doing enough. And you are using this as an argument for deregulation that would open it up to anybody who wants to do their own wiring? It doesn't make sense to me.

[MurrayD99]

The problem is, really, most of the stuff we might be tempted to do is pretty straightforward and with a logical, sober approach, the end result will be the same as if Edison himself came and did the wiring. You remove the fuse, make sure the circuit is dead three different ways and think about what you are doing.....

If you need to shift a sub main - don't. It starts to get tricky.
If you are putting a whole lot of points in the basement or the garage - there will be load issues and you better not. Even if you will only use one point at a time, houses get sold and the incoming buyer should expect to be able to use all the plugs if he wants to. The question seems to be where to draw the line... Frankly, the standard of wiring in new houses (here) is pretty micky mouse. Wires going all directions... diagonally across walls etc... You used to be able to drive a nail into a stud and be OK - now.... you'd never know. Me go now....

[silentC]

The question seems to be where to draw the line...
We don't get to draw it, it has been drawn for us ;)


most of the stuff we might be tempted to do is pretty straightforward and with a logical, sober approach, the end result will be the same as if Edison himself came and did the wiring
See, I don't have the same faith in humanity that you do. I think that most of the people on here would be more than capable of what you are suggesting. There are a few that I would hold grave doubts about, but on the whole, most of us can use a computer and express ourselves clearly enough that you get the impression that wiring up a few points or a light or two would be well within our capabilities.

But, I have had the pleasure of experiencing all sorts of different people from all walks of life over the years, through work, friends, doing jobs in people's homes. I'm sorry, but some people just do not have the nous to wire a plug. Make that many. Maybe even most. No, that's going to far. Let's leave it at many.

Now, if we were to introduce a system like they have in the UK and the US, would you really want one of nature's beautiful people messing about with the wiring in a house you are about to buy from them? I know damn sure I wouldn't. Leave that alone, I would say.

OK, say you introduced a course that people could do to give them a qualification to do it themselves. Has anyone ever done an Owner Builder course? Do you think that a two day course gives you the skills and knowledge you need to build a house? Of course not. It is a rubber stamp to satisfy a legislative requirement that home owners undertaking blah blah blah blah.

No, I am not an optimist when it comes to relying on the common sense of humans or on the ability of governments to do things properly, or to see that they are done properly.

And just think Murray, if what I read in the SMH this morning comes to fruition, you could be a part of this great country too!

[chrisp]

Owner builders can always obtain a restricted license without the need for the full 4 years.

Benny,

I don't know if you have tried to obtain a restricted license - and I mean a linence that actually allows you to wire, not just disconnect and reconnect.

As a professional electrical engineer I can not obtain an "occupier's license" (which would allow me to do electrical work only on my own house) in Victoria without doing a four-year apprenticeship.

The regulations require that I sit an exam on the wiring rules (no problems) and do 80 hours supervised work (no problems). But to do the supervised work experience a whole heap of other rules have to be met and in the end it is actually easier to do a four-year apprenticeship.

I think the regulations are there to maintain a closed-shop but they are veiled as there for our safety.

[bennylaird]

Our department at Vic Uni used to teach the S License but I wasn't involved with it. Might see what that entails if it still exists? 30 years as a radio tech doesn't give me any right to go beyond a plug even though I work with Radars etc up around the 2 Megawatt range and have wriiten manuals etc for Loy Yang B power station.

[Eastie]

...You remove the fuse, make sure the circuit is dead three different ways and think about what you are doing.....


The established three different ways is test on a known live source, test the diconection, test on a known live source again. Hands up haw many home handy persons have a decent enough multi meter to be safely playing with 240 and have the skills to safely test live circuits, knowing exactly what they are doing.

[bennylaird]

In Malaysia one of the RAAFies was working on his stereo in the room with his wife and 2 week old baby. He turned it off at the wall plug and took the cover off. Pick it up to move it and it contacted his chest and rendered his heart invalid as it took the full path of 240v pushing some substantial current through it.

Of course he should have unplugged it but the major cause was the fact that the active and neutral were reversed and only the active was switched, hence the neutral. Simple matter of swapping the two wire over.

I have seen many diyers who make the same mistake usually when they make extension leads. Just not enough basic knowledge.

[silentC]

I just plug my radio in and if it works, it's live, if it doesn't, it's dead...

I'll shut up now ;)

[bennylaird]

I just plug my radio in and if it works, it's live, if it doesn't, it's dead...

I'll shut up now ;)

Hope your radio never develops a fault:o :o :D :D

Wonder how many do rely on the same sort of test though?
:confused: :eek: :eek:

[Gra]

active and neutral were reversed

mixing up the active and neutral is always a problem in the forces:D:D:D

Ok, i will go find a spare friday thread to drivel in

[bennylaird]

See if you can find an old open one?

[thatirwinfella]

Benny,

I don't know if you have tried to obtain a restricted license - and I mean a linence that actually allows you to wire, not just disconnect and reconnect.

As a professional electrical engineer I can not obtain an "occupier's license" (which would allow me to do electrical work only on my own house) in Victoria without doing a four-year apprenticeship.

The regulations require that I sit an exam on the wiring rules (no problems) and do 80 hours supervised work (no problems). But to do the supervised work experience a whole heap of other rules have to be met and in the end it is actually easier to do a four-year apprenticeship.

I think the regulations are there to maintain a closed-shop but they are veiled as there for our safety.

calling it a closed shop is the wrong term, that implies keeping it union labour only, this has nothing to do with the unions.

what they are trying to do is keep electricity to the electricians. Frankly, I can't see anything wrong with that.

You seem to be developing a case of engineers' head. the most obvious symptom includes because they''re an engineer than they surely must know everything about electricity, which leads to the design of impractical and ineffiecient systems that are difficult to install, maintain and operate.

having said that, there are excellent engineers out there. If you meet one, send him my way, I'm still yet to meet one.

While people may claim that electricity is easy to understand, why do we get questions like "can i put a 10 amp plug on this 15 amp tool and run it from the same circuit my fridge, heaters and the rest of my workshop is on?". mostly, from people not understanding enough about electricity.

[bennylaird]

First givaway is when they say the voltage runs down here etc

[adrian]

I had a space under my house that had a concrete slab, power point and lights and nothing else. I converted it to a proper room, put up the walls, plaster and cornice, painted it and tiled the slab, then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.
Having said that, I have seen some of the bad jobs that electricians have done so I tend to look over their shoulder while they are working.

[MurrayD99]

We don't get to draw it, it has been drawn for us ;)



And just think Murray, if what I read in the SMH this morning comes to fruition, you could be a part of this great country too!


Yeah, Mr C, I know... I was thinking "us" who so far have not screwed up, far as we know, rather than the great un-washed.

Now, on that other matter - I caught something on the news last night - is this imminent? Very nice, but I saw our Minister of Finance saying it will never happen. I guess he wants to keep his job.:D Think you might have to invade while everyone is distracted - looking to Fiji.

[MurrayD99]

The established three different ways is test on a known live source, test the diconection, test on a known live source again. Hands up haw many home handy persons have a decent enough multi meter to be safely playing with 240 and have the skills to safely test live circuits, knowing exactly what they are doing.

Test on a known live source... then again.... then put a screwdriver across the live ones to see if they want to continue the conversation....

Hey, a thought... that red wire, same colour as the dead centre? Must be earth. (No, No, don't try this at home.... just kidding... anyway, it is now blue, brown.... which is it?)

[MurrayD99]

Reckon we are sailing close to the wind here guys. Gotta be a lockout looming and it is only Wednesday. How's yer pine box Benny? Got the thread back yet?

[bennylaird]

It's gone to sleep, the box thread.

But lets just make sure that we dont cause any probs:

Active is Brown (or red)
Neutral is Blue (or black)
Earth is Green/Yellow (or green)

Don't every mix em up cos it may not be you who becomes the vibrating attachment.

[Gra]

whenever I touch them they all end up black.... I recon that the smoke is what makes the wires different colours. As soon as you let the smoke out they all turn black.....:D:D

[bennylaird]

whenever I touch them they all end up black.... I recon that the smoke is what makes the wires different colours. As soon as you let the smoke out they all turn black.....:D:D


And I thought your Afro Haircut was natural?:eek: :p :p

Careful Gra don't let out the Magic Smoke theory of electricity, it's our secret;)

[MurrayD99]

First givaway is when they say the voltage runs down here etc

It comes out the plug doesn't it. Particles of electricity.... or is it magnetism? Less if in the US of course.:confused:

[silentC]

I know someone who believes, no matter how hard I try to convince them otherwise, that if you leave a power point switched on with nothing plugged in, it wastes electricity.

[bennylaird]

It comes out the plug doesn't it. Particles of electricity.... or is it magnetism? Less if in the US of course.:confused:

So much to learn, so little time. Where is my Aussie/Kiwi phrase book:confused: :confused:


Voltage is like pressure, goes nowhere
Current is the flow, electons but Engineers have it going the wrong way
Resistance is the opposition to current flow.

Isn't electicity easy:rolleyes:

Oh and it goes down the plug hole the other way in the northern hemisphere:p :p :p

[bennylaird]

I know someone who believes, no matter how hard I try to convince them otherwise, that if you leave a power point switched on with nothing plugged in, it wastes electricity.

And rightly so, it leaches into the air so make sure you leave a window open:cool:

[JDub]

it leaches into the air

Thats why you must never light a match indoors when powerpoints are turned on..........

[MurrayD99]

What's this potential difference thing then? Nothing like a double period of physics on a Wednesday afternoon!

[silentC]

I still can't get over the fact that there's an electrical engineer out there who goes by the moniker of chrisp :eek:

[MurrayD99]

:D :D Just kidding. You needn't answer that. 1/R1 + 1/R2.....

[bennylaird]

What's this potential difference thing then? Nothing like a double period of physics on a Wednesday afternoon!

The potential difference is the force that exists between Null Zulland and Oztralia. It is this force which provides a flow of Kiwis to Bondi in search of welfare payments.:D :D :D
ie another name for voltage
:cool:

[bennylaird]

:D :D Just kidding. You needn't answer that. 1/R1 + 1/R2.....

That parallels the answer if your not being seriesous:p

[MurrayD99]

Killer. :D :D It does something to the balance of payments does it?

Reckon this thread is achieving perpetual motion

[bennylaird]

(shhhhh don't even associate it with the day before Saturday)

[MurrayD99]

That parallels the answer if your not being seriesous:p

Not bad at all! (2 at a blow too!). Where is friend Bishfactor? He started this and must be in tears at the direction it has taken and angst generated. I'd be proud! Which boys will be disciplined for this? :)

[bennylaird]

All Felders fault, he incited it all.

(ok so can't tie him in, but sure it's his fault?)

[Felder]

All Felders fault, he incited it all.



:confused::confused:

I just got here. I came in to see what all the activity was about, and find myself being blamed for something that I had no prior knowledge of.

Oh by the way, you may as well blame me for the fall of Rome.

As soon as I turn my back......:(

[MurrayD99]

He'll plead dusty conditions and trouble with customs... I imagine that Hammer needs a plug re-wire (just ducking for cover here). You say you reverse the phase and neutral downunder, right?

[bennylaird]

Bugr, now we have to find someone else to blame:( :(


It was that bugr Brendan!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[bennylaird]

He'll plead dusty conditions and trouble with customs... I imagine that Hammer needs a plug re-wire (just ducking for cover here). You say you reverse the phase and neutral downunder, right?


Just remember to consult the phases of the moon as it all changes, most people miss that:D

Maybe I should just stay neutral, till it all blows over?:confused:

[MurrayD99]

I'm heading out before the Trades Certification Board men come and get me and confiscate my wire cutters.... Bon Soir from the red corner...

[bennylaird]

Me too, normal service will now resume.

[chrisp]

I still can't get over the fact that there's an electrical engineer out there who goes by the moniker of chrisp :eek:

Yep, hard to believe - it must have been some kind of parapraxia when I signed up!:)

And I must be an excellent one too - I haven't met thatirwinfella (unless he was that TAFE teacher:eek: ):)

[silentC]

You mean chrisp isn't your real name? :cool:

[Barry_White]

I had a space under my house that had a concrete slab, power point and lights and nothing else. I converted it to a proper room, put up the walls, plaster and cornice, painted it and tiled the slab, then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.
Having said that, I have seen some of the bad jobs that electricians have done so I tend to look over their shoulder while they are working.

Actually under Rule 2.8 of SAA 3000 you can have a mixed circuit. If it is wired in 2.5mm2 cable you can have a maximum load of 4800 watts so you can have up to 15 lighting points and 3 GPO's on that circuit but must not exceed the 4800 watts. If it is wired in less than 2.5mm2 you can't have any GPO's on the circuit.

Remember this is not advise or recommendation, only what the rule book states.

Please read my disclaimer in my signature.

[pharmaboy2]

You haven't established that. I was flicking through that link and there seemed to be a lot of categories, including licensed persons, unlicensed persons, members of the public etc and overhead lines, network assets etc. When you can give us a stat that shows how many deaths occurred in homes from incorrectly wired points and lights, then you have something to argue with. At the moment, you just have a number that shows how many people died from electrocution for whatever reason. At the moment, your number would also include people who died from electrocution after touching an overhead wire, people who died installing electrical equipment on the job etc.

If anything, if there is a higher rate of electrocutions in Australia than the UK, it says that we aren't doing enough. And you are using this as an argument for deregulation that would open it up to anybody who wants to do their own wiring? It doesn't make sense to me.

Why in Heavens name is this so hard to believe. There isnt room for those numbers to be wrong, unless a minister of the crown was misleading parliament! I showed categorical proof that the numbers of people who DIE from electrocution in Australia and the UK is roughly equivalent, but them having a population of 3 times ours makes their rate lower - end of story, that is a fact, no matter what people want to read into it, its the way it is.

Now, i agree that it would be nice to have both countries figures with deaths from various causes, as in, overhead line, high tension, industrial , whatever, but I've provided raw stuff and made a valid point, its up to those who disagree to find a better breakdown. I'm happy if when (if) someone finds better detailed information that I'm proven wrong, but as it stands with the information available in 2 places that use the same voltage/ampege, same language, same wiring regs (pretty much) etc, the one with the most amount of trade restriction (australia) is NOT the safest.

I'd be ecstatic if someone can provide more info.

[woodcutta]

And when your finished your wiring it will need to be tested

From the 1953 Americans Electricians Handbook - Oh thats right they can do their own wiring can't they.

woodcutta

[Honorary Bloke]

And when your finished your wiring it will need to be tested

From the 1953 Americans Electricians Handbook - Oh thats right they can do their own wiring can't they.

woodcutta

Yeth, and I've goth the tongue to prove ith. :D :D

The last sparky I had in to do some work (running a new powerpoint from an existing one) told me "not to bother" to turn off the circuit and then proceeded to wire the whole thing whilst it was live. :eek:

[bennylaird]

Malaysian "electricians" did the same sort of thing while I was up there. The check was to arc out the wires to see if they had power then to disconnect the ceiling fan while balanced on a 15ft ladder made of packing crates while holding the fan in on hand. Was always hoping I wasn't needed for the breath of life.

[boban]

Disagree with you there. My answer to anyone would be the same. Don't do it, it's illegal, get a sparky.

It's not a grey area, it's cut and dried. Not a question of how hard it is or whether or not people have free will. You're not allowed to do your own wiring, that's the answer when someone asks one of these questions. You can whinge about it as much as you like but them's the facts.

Would also be interested to know the legal consequences for the forum if someone followed the advice posted and something went wrong or they got caught? Hopefully none, but...

Of course its not a grey area, we all know its illegal, but that's not the point. If you ask me which colour is active, I'll tell you. If I dont know, I wont answer. What you then go and do is your choice. Same as cutting down a protected tree without a permit. You ultimately make the decision. What difference does it make that I tell you to use a chainsaw a certain way. Information does not hurt you.

As to the legal consequences for the forum. Well you wouldn't run one if misinformation was going to get you into trouble. I've seen some advice on here on all sorts of topics that is just plain wrong. But that's the nature of forums, places for discussions.

[adrian]

Actually under Rule 2.8 of SAA 3000 you can have a mixed circuit. If it is wired in 2.5mm2 cable you can have a maximum load of 4800 watts so you can have up to 15 lighting points and 3 GPO's on that circuit but must not exceed the 4800 watts. If it is wired in less than 2.5mm2 you can't have any GPO's on the circuit.

Remember this is not advise or recommendation, only what the rule book states.

Please read my disclaimer in my signature.
I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

[silentC]

Why in Heavens name is this so hard to believe.
Because statistics can be used in an incorrect manner to prove a point. Like saying that because more people per capita die from electrocution in Australia than in the UK that it somehow means that our system of preventing home owners from doing their own wiring is failing. It's like saying that licensing car drivers isn't working because our road toll is higher than upper kunbungasthan where they don't issue licenses, so we might as well remove the licensing requirement.

You need to look at the causes of the deaths before you can draw any conclusions. Maybe we have more overhead lines in dangerous positions than they do. Maybe our unions aren't as militant, so the workplaces aren't as safe. It's not logical to say that we have laws preventing people wiring their own houses - our fatalities are higher - the laws don't work. You have to show that the deaths are due to people doing things that the law prohibits and that they would have done better if they had a) been allowed to do them and b) sought the education.

I wonder how many people would "do the course" before wiring up the new points if there was one.


You ultimately make the decision
Yeah, like when I decide I'd like to buy one more pint and then get in my car ;)

It's not about incorrect information. It's about correct information that may encourage someone to do something that is not legal. What's the difference between that and telling someone how to break into a car or make a bomb? I just want to know, that's all. Enlighten me.

[MurrayD99]

.....Maybe we have more overhead lines in dangerous positions than they do. Maybe our unions aren't as militant, so the workplaces aren't as safe. .....;)



Quite so Mr C. Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory. I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.