Basic home wiring

[silentC]

I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license?
I agree with that. I think you should be able to. If it was available, I would have done it myself years ago. Same with plumbing. If you can demonstrate that you know what you are doing, you should be able to get a permit or a license for your own domestic work.

It does open up some problem areas though. I'll repeat what I said earlier about the owner builder course that I did. There is no way on Earth that one of those courses gives you the knowledge you need to build a house. You learn just enough to pass the multiple choice test and get the rubber stamp. I'd shudder to think that anyone who does one of those courses and having had no prior exposure to building would walk away thinking they are equipped to build a house. They still rely upon inspections to make sure things have been done correctly. The whole OB thing was just concocted so that there would be a legal scapegoat when shoddy work is done. The whole thing is half-arsed and it doesn't necessarily improve the quality of the work at all.

If there are people who cannot intuitively wire up a new power point or light without having to ask how to do it, what hope do they have of learning enough to wire up their house in any kind of course. The benefit of the apprenticeship programme is that they get on the job experience with a qualified person showing them how it should be done and smacking them over the head when they get it wrong. Some people learn well from books and others need to have the information belted into them.

They could make the test really difficult and have some practical elements to it. That might help. But then how much do you really need to know to wire up a few points? Do you have different levels of permit, or make everyone go the whole hog?

Do they have that sort of system in the UK/US or is it just open slather for home owners?

[Malibu]

I'm pretty much in agreement with you for the most part Chris, but I'm not sure about the OCEI manipulating the scenario and licence structure to make it a "closed shop". (That sounds more like a union related issue to me)
I think the OCEI takes the stance that there must be a cut-off point somewhere and so they basicaly put forth that only an A-grade can do such-and-such work, and the only way to get an A-grade is through an apprenticeship to cover any grey areas that might arise.

A good call to get the regulations changed, but good luck in doing it! I for one would prefer to see the licencing system split into a different classs structure...
1) Industrial
2) Public domestic/commercial
3) Private home installation

There's massive differences in industrial and domestic wiring, and I've worked with contractors who are wizzes in domestic, but fail badly in industry and vice-versa. I for one struggle putting power points in because it's not my usual work (Happily, I don't do many outlets...!). Give me a complex 3 phase machine with inverter drives and plc/computer control and I'll breeze through the majority of work on it. It's all in the training and the practice.
When I did my apprenticeship and sat the prac exam, I struggled with the board job (from memory, a gpo, a light and a 2 way circuit) while others creamed it in with time to spare. When it came to the face-plate starter and the motor control part of the exam, I was first out the door while the domestic faction were scratching their heads.

As another example for license enigmas... My ticket allows me to work on live equipment up to 1kV (I think it's 1Kv, but it might still be at 600V) but I can't wire up a telephone circuit because I'm not Austel licenced. I'm also unable to contract out, earn any extra cash from my profession or help a mate with his house wiring for a slab. "Not authorised to contract for profit or reward" is the fine print. So, I'm limited in work in my chosen profession and legally, can only do electrical work for the company I'm working for.

Yes, the licence system needs a shake-up, but I'm not sure how best to do it.

[Vernonv]

Hi Malibu,
What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .

Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

[chrisp]

Vernonv,

I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor).

You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else.

Chris

[journeyman Mick]

Vernonv,

I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor).

You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else.

Chris


Same as in Qld as far as I know.

Mick

[Malibu]

You're right Chris, it's an A-grade first, then sit for a contractors ticket. From what I can gather, the REC course is 90% business studies/paper work and the remainder is electricaly related.
I don't know the reason behind the concept, but there's a few possabilities:
- The closed shop theory
- A money spinner for the OCEI
(A-grade costs are $130 for 5 years, not sure about an REC, but probably more)
- Control and regulation of contractors
I suspect the later, but at the end of the day, we all have to put in the same certificate of complience, it's just that a contractor has another number to add to the system.

Coincidentaly, my Energy Safe magazine landed today. There were 6 prosecutions over the last month.
1 company for dodgy work
1 inspector for passing dodgy work
4 unlicenced people doing work and/or installing faulty equipment.
One of the fines was $13,000...

Total of prosecutions this year is up to 68

[Barry_White]

Hi Malibu,
What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .

Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

Things may have changed here in NSW but a few years ago a licenced electricion or an electrical engineer or any one with an electrical training background could wire their own home and bear in mind back then every electrical job had to have a ready for test put into the local county council and no work could be connected to the supply until an inspector came out to authorise the electrical work.

Although all work has to be submitted to the local electrical authority it does not mean they will inspect every job now. They usually inspect jobs at random to make checks on the various contractors and if it is not up to standard he will get a defect and the more defects he gets the more inspections he will get at the risk of losing his contractors licence but the Electrical Contractor has the authority to connect the work to the supply.

Licenced electritions, engineers etc. can not hire themselves out without having a a Electrical Contractors Licence which is separate from being a licenced electrition who can only do work for an Electrical Contractor or for a company that has an Electrical Contractor in their employ.

Like most trades now they have to earn a 100 points each year by doing followup courses and trade nights etc. or their licence is on the line.

This point system has just been introduced for fridge mechanics and air conditioning contractors and has been in place for quiet some time for licenced builders and I dare say for plumbers and gas fitters as well

[Dan]

I think the contracting ticket carries with it a fairly bit chunk of liability insurance.

Anyone wishing to know more about the standards would be better off getting hold of AS/NZS 3018:2001 "Electrical Installations-Domestic Installations". AS/NZS3000:2000 is a lot harder to get a concrete answer from since its review IMO.

[Sturdee]

I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it?


As these regulations have been issued by the responsible Minister under an Act of Parliament the way to change it is very simple indeeed.

Just convince your local member that they ought to change the regulations and then have him/her convince the government party that they ought to be changed.

Then the responsible minister will widely consult all sections of the community that may be affected by the change and may be he will instruct the parliamentary draftsmen to rewrite the regulations which he may approve.

If he does it will become law else it is back to the beginning of this thread. Rather elementary really but this process could take a lifetime of lobbying.:D


Peter.

[thatirwinfella]

that REC thing is probably to keep track of everyone. it's pretty hard to keep tabs on a guy with a van and a mobile phone if he doesn't want to be found.

they're also supposed to have $1 million [i think] in liability insurance

there is also apparently some loop with the rec ticket, you don't have to be a sparky to get it. eg, your gran can get the contracting licence for the business which comprises solely of you [and her i guess.]

thats how most industrial places go about it though, the contracting ticket is in the company or the owners name, rather than that of a sparky.

there is also [again, apparently, it has come up in discussion at work] a provision for licenced sparkies to do work without a contractor's ticket but the income is limited. it is intended for those who do mate's houses and such.

[pedro the swift]

Well, didnt this open a can of worms.
I have just one question for any sparkies here(as a sparkie myself).
Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enought slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
Surely it doesnt add any more cost to allow a few extra inches(mm) of cable to allow for future reconnection/additions.
Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by th eway I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time.

Cheers

[DavidG]

pedro the swift
I agree.
When our place was built there was heaps of spare wire sticking out the wall and along came the sparkie and cut most off before mounting the sockets. ?????

I am not a sparkie but a tech officer from electronics.
Was legally allowed to do any mains wiring at work but not at home??????

[Ashore]

Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enought slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
Cheers
Couldn't agree more its a real PITA :mad:

[silentC]

There's probably one power point in the house that has all the slack. The sparky has gone around doing his fitout with a nice bit of slack at each point, but as he does the next one in the chain, he yanks on the cable a bit to get more slack and so on. The last one he did has all the slack ;)

Actually, it can be a real pain to install a point if there's too much slack because you have to shove half a metre of cable into the cavity as well, especially if there's a loop or two as well. Not that I've ever tried it myself you understand :o

[Malibu]

Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by th eway I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time.

I'm with you Pedro. Somewhere along the way in industrial, there's enough slack in the wiring for re-terminations.
Naturally, I wired my house and made sure all the GPO's (all 67 of them) had about 400mm slack in the wall for future hassle-free mods. :)
As far as single core goes, I'm in the "detest it" boat as well. I'm surprised that it's still made because of the poor workability.

[Barry_White]

Well, didn't this open a can of worms.
I have just one question for any sparky's here(as a sparky myself).
Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enough slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
Surely it doesn't add any more cost to allow a few extra inches(mm) of cable to allow for future reconnection/additions.
Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by the way I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time.

Cheers

That's interesting Pedro my business partner the electrical contractor always with out fail would put a loop of slack at every point in an installation as well as in the back of the switch board. His argument was that you never know when you will have to come back and extend an installation.

The newer cable today has thinner white thermoplastic on it and is much easier to push it back into the wall.

When I built my house because it was steel frame the council made me put those black plastic shrouds on the back of all GPO's and switch plates and I had one six gang switch plate which included 3 x 2way switches as well as the 3 single switches in it and I had the lights wired in 1.5mm2 cable and with the old white thermoplastic in the double insulation. It really caused me some angst in getting it back into the wall. That was 12 individual cables going into the back of the shroud and into the switch mechanisms

[journeyman Mick]

Pedro,
sparky mate told me how the bloke he did his time under used to work out exactly how much cable was required for each run and then cut it slightly shorter:eek: . The blokes were supposed to somehow make it reach, all to save a few cents in copper. Domestic work is usually pretty tight, profit-wise so sparkys do tend to leave really short tails. Working on commercial it's a different story, I took home enough long off cuts to rewire a transportable building.

Mick

[Border boy]

Hey people, check out the ads at the top of the page, this is how it all started!! Great thread by the way.
Cheers!!

[MurrayD99]

Hey people, check out the ads at the top of the page, this is how it all started!! Great thread by the way.
Cheers!!


How did that happen? Is someone watching? I knew the disclaimers would be a bit dodgy.

Jeeez...... wirecutters, alligator clips, screwdriver.... merlot, empty cans.... woaaaa!
Gone!:D

[Honorary Bloke]

Is this the Friday thread in some alternate universe? :confused:

[MurrayD99]

I see the electrical ads disappeared already.... they must have figured out that the contributors were all deranged - not likely customers for structured cabling design etc... Oh, we are mortally wounded by this!

[ColinRalph]

My sister is buried at Mt Gravat, her boyfriend did her wiring.
Get an electrician if you do not know how to do. it it is too late when someone is dead

[TassieKiwi]

Sorry to hear that mate.