Basic home wiring

[Dan]

... then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.

Like Barry said, it is a mixed circuit, they're usaully used in sheds.
The only person placing your life at risk was yourself, but I don't see how a mixed circuit is any more dangerous. When you were isolating there would have been one circuit breaker to take out the whole lot.

[Ashore]

I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

Used for sheds lofts etc so you only have to run one circuit rather than two, pretty damm logical really :cool:

[Pulse]

A few months ago I downloaded the list of all electrocutions in NSW over about 6 years. Not many DIY deaths, most were work related either working live or due to old degraded insulation in split steel conduit. I think allowing DIY wiring would encourage replacement of these old circuits.

Not many people are willing or able to shell out $5-$6K for a complete rewire. If they were able to run the wires themselves and get it hooked up by a sparky for $1K, the world would be a safer place.

Cheers
Pulse

[snowyskiesau]

A few months ago I downloaded the list of all electrocutions in NSW over about 6 years. Not many DIY deaths, most were work related either working live or due to old degraded insulation in split steel conduit. I think allowing DIY wiring would encourage replacement of these old circuits.


Do you know if there is a list that shows injuries or property damage attributed to faulty wiring?

[Pulse]

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/pdfs/corporate/publications/ftb35.pdf

There is one for every year

Cheers Pulse

[thatirwinfella]

Quite so Mr C. Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory. I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.

the population density and low travel times between major urban areas would give a greater availability of sparkies with in say... 1hour travelling than in most parts of austalia.

thats just one example.

[chrisp]

Because statistics can be used in an incorrect manner to prove a point. Like saying that because more people per capita die from electrocution in Australia than in the UK that it somehow means that our system of preventing home owners from doing their own wiring is failing.

With due respect Silent, I don't think that is the argument, the argument that the electrical authorities make is that the regulations needed for the safety of the public hence their strict restrictions on who can obtain a wiring license. The statistics that pharmaboy2 has produced shows this not to be the case. Yes, by all means be cautious of statistics, but if you don't believe them perhaps you can find some alternative figures. I think in reality the death rate from electrocution is very small and you will have to look very hard to find an actual death from faulty wiring rather than unsafe work practice (for example, working on live circuits) or by inadvertently coming in contact with overhead lines.


Quite so Mr C. Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory. I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.

Hmmm, you say you don't know, but suspect they are chalk and cheese???


the population density and low travel times between major urban areas would give a greater availability of sparkies with in say... 1hour travelling than in most parts of austalia.

thats just one example.

But people can do their own wiring in the UK and they are not getting killed at a greater rate than the Aussies. We are not (or at least I'm not) contesting that licensed sparkies will do a safe job, we are arguing that the non-sparkies will do an unsafe job. Again Pharmaboy2's figures don't support this.

[bennylaird]

All this is becoming tiresome. Lets all agree to disagree and do what feels right.

Of course anyone with a moderate amount of success can gather the necessary info to wire up a few sockets. And more often than not they will be safe and able to meet requirements.

It's the things that you may not be aware of that will be the problem but accept the risk and save some money. Just don't try and blame anyone else if things go wrong.

But try to keep 3 things in mind:

Safety,
Safety, and
Safety.

If your not sure seek help which is why you ask a question here. Respect those who do not wish to place you in a position that may cause damage to yourself or your family by not trusting in your skills to complete the task.

We all twist the rules to save a few dollars, but just remember that electricity doesn't suffer fools at all well.

[boban]

It's not about incorrect information. It's about correct information that may encourage someone to do something that is not legal. What's the difference between that and telling someone how to break into a car or make a bomb? I just want to know, that's all. Enlighten me.

The obvious one would be that with either example given there are definate victims. One involves violence against property and the other against both property and possibly the person.

[bennylaird]

The obvious one would be that with either example given there are definate victims. One involves violence against property and the other against both property and possibly the person.

Don't think it matters much to die from touching a wire incorrecty installed to being blown apart by a terrorist bomb? Either way your dead?

I think it's much more likely to encounter the first here than the second. My nephew is permanently disabled after spending a week in hospital, touch and go, after cutting some carpet only to discover some duckhead had installed a new powerpoint by running the lead under the carpet.


Another fun one, I was about to cut and earth lead, yellow and green, from a ceiling fan. As usual I did meter it and found it live, oh yes there was a note I found later in the juction bos explaining how the spare earth wire had been used to get a summer function from the fan.

Why not admit it you lot, a little knowledge does not make up from proper training, at least they have had to sit through the boring safety classes and some might seep in but at least the system tried.

[boban]

I'm not sure that is what Silent was getting at, but your examples would seem to support providing the correct information where requested.

Silent asked what the difference between informing someone about how to wire up correctly (illegal for DIY) and giving them the necessary information to commit deliberate acts of violence (both illegal).

What I am saying is that if the wiring is done correctly then the crime of DIY wiring is not the same as the two examples he gives.

[bennylaird]

I'm not sure that is what Silent was getting at, but your examples would seem to support providing the correct information where requested.

Silent asked what the difference between informing someone about how to wire up correctly (illegal for DIY) and giving them the necessary information to commit deliberate acts of violence (both illegal).

What I am saying is that if the wiring is done correctly then the crime of DIY wiring is not the same as the two examples he gives.

Providing information and having it followed correcty is not assured, surely you have seen that before. It gives people confidence without the skills to look beyond the advice.

SIlent is taking the cautious route, one that is inherently safe. I have spent years in a classroom after showing people the right way to do things then see their interpretation. Not nice to see a student locked onto 240V after you have stressed not to power up anything until it has been checked but they still do. You can't be trusting at all with leathal devices, bombs or power. I acknowlege the intent side of your argument but not the end result, dead is dead.

[bennylaird]

How many of you would hand over the keys of your car to your child after you had sat them down and told them how to drive safely?

Do you really know how dangerous power is? I'd post some pics but don't think they would last long as it sickens me to look at them. They show what can happen even when you are trained.

[boban]

Not nice to see a student locked onto 240V after you have stressed not to power up anything until it has been checked but they still do.

Stupid people will always be just that.

That student didn't listen and neither will the guy intent on doing his own wiring.

After they have been blasted here, they will simply say OK, Im calling a sparky to avoid any further criticism/well meant advice. Then, (like a child who wants the chocolate and promises not to eat it), goes off and does it anyway.

Surely, he is better off with the warning about safety and the information if he still wants to do it. The correct information is in the public domain and readily available. There are no secrets, so why pretend we cant quote AS3018 or AS3000 on here because they may get hurt if they do something wrong.

I know electricity has that unique safety issue. But surely, most semi-intelligent people realise this and can factor this in when making the decision about "doing the crime".

And the are other benefits for DIY wiring. I still smile when I think of the guy in Sydney who was electrocuted when he tried to bypass the meters for his marijuana hydroponics setup. Someone should have told his to pull the main fuse out before doing the other crime:D

[boban]

Perhaps I should be clear as to my position on DIY wiring.

I dont think people without training or any experience should be running and connecting new circuits.

I have no problem with people running wires, attaching stud brackets, conduit and general sparky grunt work, then having a sparky do the rest.

I have no problem with a person replacing a GPO or adding one nearby. I think that can be done safely by a reasonably intelligent person.

Basically, I dont like being over governed and in my humble opinion, given that all of the above is illegal, I believe we are. A perfect example is the ridiculous requirements for concretors in Hornsby Council who want to pour driveways in the area. Application forms, work method statements, insurance and of course another fee to pay. Yet they can pour up to the boundary without a problem.

We constantly see the American mags with wiring advice and people aren't suddenly dropping off at alarming rates. I see no difference in providing electrical advice here.

I think I've said enough on this particular topic.

[bennylaird]

Sorry Boban, if they want they can find the regs online and do what they like, but I want no part of it. My advice is to seek a qualified person. I have seen too many hurt.

We posted together, I feel you have the same values, if we feel the way things are done then talk out about them like we do here. If we have helped a DIYer think a bit more about safety then we have done good,

Hey it's Friday!!!!!!!

I'm off to drivel on and rubbish soccer etc etc:p :p :p

[MurrayD99]

Sorry Boban, if they want they can find the regs online and do what they like, but I want no part of it. My advice is to seek a qualified person. I have seen too many hurt.

We posted together, I feel you have the same values, if we feel the way things are done then talk out about them like we do here. If we have helped a DIYer think a bit more about safety then we have done good,

Hey it's Friday!!!!!!!

I'm off to drivel on and rubbish soccer etc etc:p :p :p

Sound like "The End" Couldn't agree more.... Anyone got a padlock?:D

[Honorary Bloke]

Yep.

[Wood Butcher]

Good idea Bob! Thread Closed

[RETIRED]

Thread reopened to place this in from Adrian. The highlighting is mine.


adrian
Golden Member


Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mid North Coast
Age: 53
Posts: 525
Electrical Forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Basic Home Wiring thread which was wisely closed I mentioned in Post 63 the dangerous situation I encountered when a DIY electrician placed power and light fittings on the same circuit. I received three responses, only one of which from Barry_White mentioned the Australian Standard. The others seemed to suggest that a common circuit was a good idea without qualifying the statement by saying that the circuit should be isolated by a separate circuit breaker. In my case the circuit was supplied with a common wire from a powerpoint in the bedroom above. This is clearly illegal but anyone reading the replies to my post, without adequate knowledge, would believe it to be ok to combine power and light feeds without a circuit breaker.If the thread is to remain I don't think these posts should stay there. Ambiguous information is dangerous in a 240v environment and maybe a ban on technical information in the forum is required.

[boban]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">adrian
Golden Member


Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mid North Coast
Age: 53
Posts: 525
Electrical Forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Basic Home Wiring thread which was wisely closed I mentioned in Post 63 the dangerous situation I encountered when a DIY electrician placed power and light fittings on the same circuit. I received three responses, only one of which from Barry_White mentioned the Australian Standard. The others seemed to suggest that a common circuit was a good idea without qualifying the statement by saying that the circuit should be isolated by a separate circuit breaker. In my case the circuit was supplied with a common wire from a powerpoint in the bedroom above. This is clearly illegal but anyone reading the replies to my post, without adequate knowledge, would believe it to be ok to combine power and light feeds without a circuit breaker.If the thread is to remain I don't think these posts should stay there. Ambiguous information is dangerous in a 240v environment and maybe a ban on technical information in the forum is required.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I feel the above post is plain wrong.

Why?

Anyone reading the thread would know that a mixed circuit is legal even if it is taken off a bedroom powerpoint provided that the there are no more than 3 GPO's on the circuit etc. There is nothing in any post by Adrian that suggests that the wiring is illegal.

Even the two pieces of advice that didn't quote the AS would not leave a person thinking I can do anything I like.

The light and GPO is protected by a circuit breaker. Whether it is overloaded is at this stage unknown, even by Adrian it would seem. Yet he is quite prepared to criticize the DIY sparky (i'm guessing that he is assuming this to be the case) who did the work without the complete set of facts (or at least not posting them).

The unqualified statements where simply addressed to the possibility of a mixed circuit, nothing else.

As you are no doubt aware, I think discussion of the Standards is a good thing. Anyone reading that thread properly, would know that the AS provides for a mixed circuit and the maximum load. How is that a bad thing?

In my opinion, Adrian put his foot in it as he clearly didn't know that a mixed circuit was legal, yet had a go the person who installed it. His last post was just an attempt to justify his attack and try and get his foot out of his mouth.

[adrian]

Wow, it's open again. Time to have my right of reply to Boban's deleted thread before it gets closed again. I accept the fact that I wasn't clear enough in my original post when I told of the incompetence of a DIY electrician. The details I missed in the original post was that the combined circuit was run from a powerpoint in the room above. I should have also placed in the post that I know combined circuits (legally installed) are quite ok because I have one in a detached granny flat. I wrongly assumed that everyone would take it as read that I was referring to illegal wiring. SORRY, I should have said that. I sent PMs to the 3 people who originally responded to that post and clarified the situation. Which I'm sure was accepted by them.
Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint. After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous. One correctly pointed out that it placed his life in danger if he were to work on it without knowing the situation and would void my household insurance if there was an electrical fire.
Boban's information is dead wrong. No-one should ever connect a light fitting to a powerpoint unless such a combined circuit has a separate feed from a power board with it's own breaker/fuse. It also has to be designated as such so that anyone working in that location knows that pulling the fuse to the light circuit means that all light fittings in that location will still remain live.
Although not a licenced electrician, I have been a technician for 30 years and apply common sense to these types of situations. Boban should do likewise and not post information that could get someone killed.
Play the last post guys.

[boban]

This is the PM I got from Adrian

You really need to check your facts before you decided to personally attack someone. I have a legal shared circuit in a detached granny flat. The circuit is legal because it ORIGINATES FROM THE SWITCHBOARD and is designated as such.
The circuit in my room downstairs originates from a powerpoint and is not only illegal, it's criminally stupid. If anyone installs such a circuit that results in someone getting electrocuted they can be charged with manslaughter.
I've consulted three electricians and they all advise that it's illegal and must be rectified to conform to the standard. It would also void my household insurance in the event of an electrical fire. Your post was dangerous and I'm not surprised that it is to be deleted.


This was my reply


As I said, no-where in your posts did you day that you had consulted 3 sparkies. You seem to be making it up as you go along.

Now you say that you knew you could have a mixed circuit. This knowledge is not evident in your first and subsequent posts.

Your lack of knowledge is quite evident in that you think that you cannot take off power from behind a another GPO. You will find that that is how your whole house is wired. They all originate from the switchboard.

Only if the total number of GPO's and total load exceeds the AS specification will the circuit be deemed to be illegal. The only way a sparky would know that to be the case is to personally inspect the circuit. Again, you haven't said this. You could even do this yourself if you knew how and it would not be illegal to do so.

Your circuit may well be illegal. I dont know, but the information you have posted does not lead to that undeniable conclusion. You criticised on the basis of mixed circuits existing. Plain and simple.

I didn't want either thread to be closed so that you could respond in open. I even sent a PM to Ozwinner to that effect.

I'm quite happy to debate this in open.

As to me checking my facts, I'm relying solely on what you posted, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add some new facts then do so.



I even went to the trouble of cutting and pasting the relevant posts in chronological order so that you can make up your own minds.

[Cliff Rogers]

This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match. :rolleyes:

There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match.

A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure. ;)

[Wood Butcher]

This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match. :rolleyes: No, it was opened by higher powers to see who will win the pissing contest.:D


There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match.Nope, could get you a few reddies though.


A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure. ;) If any thread resorts to personal attacks or abusive language, the offenders will be reprimanded.http://www.ubeaut.biz/fireface.gif

[boban]

Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint.

Dont misquote me. What I said is quite clear. No circuit originates from a powerpoint.


After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous.


Boban's information is dead wrong.

Exactly how is it wrong. All I ever did was refer to the fact that the AS provides for it and that you got it wrong. You just cant accept that.

You now say that you were aware of mixed circuits but previously said this:


I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.


You can just keep adding info if you like. The simple fact is that anyone reading those three posts would know exactly what the requirements were for a mixed circuit. To me that is not "dangerous".

Those that think I got it wrong or posted anything dangerous, then Im willing to hear from you. I'll eat humble pie if its warranted.

[Malibu]

Hell... I just want to know did he get his power points put in or not??? :D

[outback]

Fair dinkum, I got sent to the naughty corner and given an official reprimand for less than this. :confused:

I think everyone needs a bex and a little lie down, best not in a bedroom with a powerpoint though.

[adrian]

Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous. It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

[Cliff Rogers]

... If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.......

http://www.ubeaut.biz/huh.gif
Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

[Wood Butcher]

That makes two of us Cliff.

[Dan]

How about a drawing?

[boban]

Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous. It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

I'm not giving any advice. I'm saying that the 3 posts abouts common circuits are not dangerous.

Now to address you directly on this mythical common feed. Why would anyone form a bridge from one light to another that is already connected. You really are clutching at straws. That would apply to any bridge between circuits. But that would be plain stupid.

Your powerpoints will be connected together on each of the respective circuits. All will be fed from the mains hopefully through a RCD then through an MCB then to your first powerpoint(s). It is then like a chain from one powerpoint to another. By going off one of these powerpoints you are simply extending that circuit not creating a new one. The circuit starts at the switchboard and ends at the last powerpoint.

If you decide to overload that circuit then thats another matter.

Dont confuse the issue or pretend this is about safety. Its about you saving face.

Read and follow those three posts carefully and you will have no problem.

Lets see how many sparkies tell me Im wrong Adrian.

[boban]

http://www.ubeaut.biz/huh.gif
Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

That is just an extremely unlikely hypothetical.

[adrian]

I know when I'm licked. It's true what they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. No amount of arguement is going to change your mind. Go ahead and do what you want and I'll do what I want based on the advice of people who know what they are talking about.
I can definitely hear the last post playing.
PS. The electrician is coming next week to rewire my room downstairs. I was going to leave it on the backburner but this discussion has prodded me into action. At least I can thank you for that.

[boban]

I know when I'm licked. It's true what they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. No amount of arguement is going to change your mind. Go ahead and do what you want and I'll do what I want based on the advice of people who know what they are talking about.
I can definitely hear the last post playing.

You say you are licked then continue on with a backhanded remark without addressing any of the techincal matters I have highlighted. My information comes from the AS and electricians because I have access to both on regular basis. I had this very discussion concerning mixed circuits 3 years ago on one of my developments when the sparky forgot one of the exterior lights.

As far as me doing as I want. I would gladly follow the advice given by the 3 posters. Again, that is all I have ever advised.


PS. The electrician is coming next week to rewire my room downstairs. I was going to leave it on the backburner but this discussion has prodded me into action. At least I can thank you for that.

Very good. And if he finds that there are more than 3 GPO's on that circuit then you will have an illegal circuit. Until you tell us otherwise, nothing you have said suggests that it is undeniably illegal.

[adrian]

http://www.ubeaut.biz/huh.gif
Where was that posted, I must have missed it?
What post? It seemed that some were incapable of grasping the phrase "It's Illegal and dangerous" so I had to do a bit of spoon-feeding.
It's a post to clarify the technical aspect of the circuit. I didn't feel that I should be going into that much detail because anyone who is experienced doesn't require it and anyone who needs it shouldn't get it (on this forum) because they should be calling an electrician. I have been posting replies to counteract the bad advice given by Boban. Personally, I think the thread should be deleted so that the bad advice is gone for good and doesn't have to be corrected.

[Barry_White]

My last word in this post and not taking sides.

First of all my knowledge comes from although not a licenced sparky I spent 10 years wiring houses and doing air conditioning control circuits with a business partner who was a licenced electrical contractor in an air conditioning and electrical business.

If it is as Boban says that there was no more than 3 GPO's on the circuit along with the basement lights it could be legal but with this proviso that the switch board was marked on the fuse or the circuit breaker that it was a mixed circuit for the basement and Bedroom No. whatever. If it wasn't marked on the switch board it is deemed as inadmissible and not complying.

If the GPO's and the lights in the basement were an extension of one of the house power circuits which is the possibility if it was done by a DIY'er without any regard to the rules it would certainly be illegal.

A licenced sparky should never extend a Power circuit into a mixed circuit and any sparky worth his salt would run a separate mixed circuit direct to the basement from the switch board by passing any circuits in the house.

The idea of mixed circuits is basically for isolated areas such as a basement, attic or shed.

Who is right and who is wrong can only be determined when Adrian gets his sparky out to really check it and I am sure that he will let us all know after that happens.

[Barry_White]

That was really my second last word.

Poor Bishfactor is probably wishing he had never asked the question about his wiring dilemma as his post really got hijacked and if he wasn't confused when he first posted I bet he now.

And for any one that hasn't weighed through the 10 pages of posts is probably wondering who poor old Bishfactor is. Well go to post No. 1 and all will be revealed.

[Cliff Rogers]

.... If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.....


http://www.ubeaut.biz/huh.gif

Where was that posted, I must have missed it?


What post? It seemed that some were incapable of grasping the phrase "It's Illegal and dangerous" so I had to do a bit of spoon-feeding......

Spoon-feeding? :confused:

They way I read it you implied that it was 'somebodies' advice.... look again at the bit in red... it comes straight after the bit that you now say was "a bit of spoon-feeding". :cool:

This is no longer a discussion on wiring, it's a 'he said/she said' slanging match.

A war of words & I think the notary is in front at present. :D

[outback]

I can't believe I'm gonna say this.

hang on tight, Groggy check yer boots.


but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.

[Sturdee]

Poor Bishfactor is probably wishing he had never asked the question about his wiring dilemma as his post really got hijacked and if he wasn't confused when he first posted I bet he now.


Barry,

Bishfactor probably couldn't careless as he said his adios and hasn't been back on since then.

Mind this whole thread has been boring and like Outback said it should be closed.


Peter.

[Groggy]

What is it with electrical threads? :rolleyes:

When I read this thread I get the following information from it:


This issue is confused, opinions differ.
I don't like electricity.
It doesn't like me.
It is not worth turning my house into smoke based on uninsured advice from this forum.I'll get a qualified and insured sparky to do the work because, if my house vaporises, I know I can track him down and make him accountable. At the very least I can claim on insurance.

Telling the insurance guy that I wired my house wrong due to advice I followed from the internet will only make the day of one of us, and it won't be me.

Outback: Close the thread? (rubs eyes, looks again) Outback? dat really you said dat? ;)

[Bleedin Thumb]

Boring?? no way, I love a bit of biffo.

[Jack E]

but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.
If you don't like it, don't read it.

Why should the rest of us not get to read it just because somebody else doesn't want to?

Cheers, Jack

[Groggy]

Why should the rest of us not get to read it just because somebody else doesn't want to?Jack, if the thread is closed you can still read it, you just can't post to it anymore.

[Jack E]

Fair enough then.

I still don't think it or any thread should be locked. As long as people want to contribute to a thread they should be able to. Barring personal attacks, etc, delete them and leave the thread be.
Perhaps I should have said "why should people not be able to contribute to a thread just because one person doesn't want to"
Sorry mate but it really gets me going when people ask for threads to be closed. It is the world wide web, over 5 billion people in the world with many differing opinions, you might not like some of them (the people or the opinions:) ), but you should let them have their say.

Plus I like to watch a good stouch every now and then:D

Somebody said that that the misleading posts should be deleted.

This may get the mods in more trouble because it could imply that any info left in the thread would be correct.

I agree that maybe electrical info should be banned, but then where do you draw the line on unqualified information.

By the way, I am an electrician, and will not give out electrical installation advice.

Cheers, Jack

[outback]

Let me address your concerns Jack.

I don't usually like locking threads neither, it usually happens just as it gets interesting.

I'm struggling contributing anything lately without a tut tut from someone in authority.

I really agree about deleting the misleading stuff, that really opens up Pandora's box. :eek:

ANyway, if I don't keep checking back I might miss something, and I couldn't stand that.

I just reckon this thing is getting boring, if it gets locked I don't need to be paranoid.

[ozwinner]

I can't believe I'm gonna say this.

hang on tight, Groggy check yer boots.


but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.

I couldnt agree more.

Are well all done here, Boban, Adrian?


Al :confused:

[boban]

Im done Al, but I still cant see the reason to close it. There is no personal attack, no offensive topic, just robust discussion.

But its not up to me and I'll respect the moderator's right to do as they feel appropriate.

Surely Adrian will provide us with some more relevant info that hasn't been spoonfed to us.

Barry- I dont think it is about whether his mixed circuit at home is illegal (it probably is) but rather whether your post and the 2 that followed from Dan and Ashore are dangerous to the DIY guy contemplating doing it himself. That was what I responded to, that post of Adrian's that highlighted where Adrian reckons it was dangerous.

I guess we can always talk about more interesting topics like.................................












my new Domino

[ozwinner]

I dont like closing threads one bit.

Hopefully this one will die a quick death with everyone having had their say.

Al :)

[Cliff Rogers]

...my new Domino
Is it dangerous? ;)

[boban]

Is it dangerous? ;)

You want to get me banned Cliff? :D

[Barry_White]

Barry- I dont think it is about whether his mixed circuit at home is illegal (it probably is) but rather whether your post and the 2 that followed from Dan and Ashore are dangerous to the DIY guy contemplating doing it himself. That was what I responded to, that post of Adrian's that highlighted where Adrian reckons it was dangerous.

I guess we can always talk about more interesting topics
like.................................

my new Domino

Like I said it wasn't advice or a recommendation only what AS3000 states. As far as that is concerned any one can go and buy AS3000.

As DIY'ers will do it anyway if they have decided to do whether it was legal or not. If they did go and purchase AS 3000 there would possibly be many less faults out there done by DIY'ers.

The trouble is they are doing the job on the cheap so they aren't going to fork out for AS3000 because it isn't cheap in itself.

Like you said there are many more interesting subjects to talk about

like .............



Pen Turning, my new addiction.

[Barry_White]

Is it dangerous? ;)

All things can be dangerous if not used or done properly but some people live on the edge all the time.

[coastie]

Anybody here give me some clues as to how to wire up a three pin plug?:D

[DavidG]

Anybody here give me some clues as to how to wire up a three pin plug?:D
Not like I saw on a home made extension lead.
The outer and all three inner insulations cut back at the same position and three bare wires randomly inserted in the screw holes.:eek:

[Cliff Rogers]

You want to get me banned Cliff? :D
http://www.ubeaut.biz/shark.gif

Nuh, go on.... tell us about the new Domino. :D

[RETIRED]

Not like I saw on a home made extension lead.
The outer and all three inner insulations cut back at the same position and three bare wires randomly inserted in the screw holes.:eek:
Did it work or go FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and the smoke escape?;)

[DavidG]

Did it work or go FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and the smoke escape?;)
FFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTT and took the fuse out.
Then I became involved when he asked, what was wrong.
I nearly died of shock at the sight of it.
I applied a set of side cutters to the problem and told the guy to go and buy some new leads.

Some people should NEVER touch electricity and he was one of them.

[Ashore]

Was at a camping ground about 5 years ago with a group of ulysses bikers and one bloke had made his own trailor, and had wired the fridge in by fitting it to a normel power point( Female) to the side of the trailor and then made an extension lead with a male 3 pin at each end :eek:
He couldn't see anything wrong with this as the power point was way cheaper than a fixed male one, and he always connected it to the trailor first:eek:

[Stuart]

But how did he plug the fridge into the other end?

[Ashore]

He wired the fridge into the back of the socker on the trailor then pluged it into the camp site 240 v supplied power with his double male extension

[Bleedin Thumb]

Their moto is grow old disgracefully isn't it? Not grow old stupidly.

[bennylaird]

I've decided it's time to sort out birthcontrol but I understand it's just a simple snip so might have a go at it myself. I have seen similar work done but just uncertain about the knot to use. I'll do the right thing and have it checked out by a licenced surgeon but as I have the tools then I can save a few dollars. After all it's not brain surgury?

Can anyone help with this? Perhaps a simple drawing? I assume it's all on the same circuit but is this the case? Thanks in anticipation.

[bennylaird]

Thanks Felixe, good advice, just need to know if the I have to have the tongs the right way round as I would hate to reverse my polarity?

[Cliff Rogers]

I think Benny has lost his marbles.... or is about to. :p

[Bleedin Thumb]

I've decided it's time to sort out birthcontrol but I understand it's just a simple snip so might have a go at it myself. I have seen similar work done but just uncertain about the knot to use. I'll do the right thing and have it checked out by a licenced surgeon but as I have the tools then I can save a few dollars. After all it's not brain surgury?

Can anyone help with this? Perhaps a simple drawing? I assume it's all on the same circuit but is this the case? Thanks in anticipation.


Benny, I was going to post a similar thtread about bomb defusing.
I wanted to attach a Michael Leunig cartoon Bomb Defusing 101- Prac Exam but couldn't find the cartoon.:(

Anyone got a copy?.

[Cliff Rogers]

...bomb defusing.
...couldn't find the cartoon.:(
Anyone got a copy?.
How about this one. :D

[bennylaird]

Benny, I was going to post a similar thtread about bomb defusing.
I wanted to attach a Michael Leunig cartoon Bomb Defusing 101- Prac Exam but couldn't find the cartoon.:(

Anyone got a copy?.



Both are fairly similar as they deal with defusing, and why not have a go at doing it yourself, can't hurt?:D :D :D

[MurrayD99]

Is this, yet, a Forum Hall of Fame thread? For diversity, angst, sarcasm, participation, international input, needling, casual concern for safety, bitterness, locked, unlocked, officially and unofficially, long life, humour and technical education of the unwashed. Got to be a 9! It might have been a 10 but nobody, so far, excusez-moi if I missed it, has mentioned taking supply off the overhead lines with alligator clips in a rainstorm....

[bennylaird]

Can you do that?:confused: :confused: What size clips work best and should I wear rubber shoes?:confused: :confused:

:D :D :D

[MurrayD99]

Well, this'd get us the 10 wouldn't it? Those little guys you get from DSE would be hard to solder onto a decent cable. I guess the simplest way would be to get some of those jump leads, get a few pairs and link'em up, should be OK. If it'll start a tractor engine it should take 11KVA. Being as how it is raining, you probably already wearing gumboots - perfectly safe. Tape them down where they go under the front door so you don't trip over them. Oh, you could always padlock (hint) the front door.

[bennylaird]

I think the Clint Eastwood line suits this thread nicely.

"A mans gotta know his limitations".

Use common sense and don't let it bite you.

[LeftyJim]

I'm a bit late in responding to this thread, but anyway...

An interesting statistic that is apparent in the electrical accident numbers posted earlier is the small number of electrocutions in New Zealand compared to Australia. This in itself doesn't mean much, except when you know that New Zealand permits householders to perform their own wiring with limitations, and that they share our wiring rules: AS/NZS 3000

My understanding (jump in if I get this wrong) is that Kiwis can install new main runs as long as they don't connect it up at the fusepanel end. Additional power points and lights and switches can be added to existing circuits, observing power limits.

After doing any of these tasks, a licenced sparky is called in to check/hook up at the fusepanel. Wiring information is freely available, and I think you can even take courses in household wiring.

This really knocks the teeth out of the argument that there would be chaos if householders were allowed to perform home wiring. It's all in the information and advice that is available.

If you could obtain good guides on how home wiring should be done, and then have a licenced sparky check it over afterwards at a nominal fee, I think there would be a lot less dodgy home wiring going on.

[chrisp]

Hallelujah - At least someone has seen the light!

[bennylaird]

Most agree that the most important bit is the inspection by a qualified sparkie.

[MurrayD99]

Please Sir, can we go now?

[Felder]

CLASS DISMISSED! http://www.ubeaut.biz/bigok.gif

[chrisp]

This really knocks the teeth out of the argument that there would be chaos if householders were allowed to perform home wiring. It's all in the information and advice that is available.



Most agree that the most important bit is the inspection by a qualified sparkie.

Benny,

You can read it that way if you wish, but I think BigJim pointed out it is the availability of information and courses. Other countries allow wiring without checking (NZ for extra GPOs on an existing circuit?) by a qualified electrician and they seem to be electrocuting less people than we do. They have the information available - for example Americans can buy books and DVDs that show how to wire safely. [The Australian standards and techniques are different so this information is not applicable here.]

Here we seem to go all wobbly at the knees when it comes to electrical wiring and our overly restrictive regulations. I think it is about time we joined the rest of the world - the Australian way isn't always the best way:)

[felixe]

Thanks Felixe, good advice, just need to know if the I have to have the tongs the right way round as I would hate to reverse my polarity?

Benny hasn't lost his marbles, I removed my post:eek: it was rude and I thought I would get cained by Neil!!!:eek: :D (Something about hot tongs!!)

[Barry_White]

but nobody, so far, excusez-moi if I missed it, has mentioned taking supply off the overhead lines with alligator clips in a rainstorm....

I have seen Electricity Company linesmen boil their smoko billy with an immersion element with wires connected to a couple of hooks hung on the overhead wires. But I will admit certainly not in the rain. In fact I have never seen them work in the rain.....

NO I TELL A LIE. I have seen them work in the rain during a rain storm up here where they climbed up the pole on a ladder to push the arm transformer fuses back in after they were blown out by a lightening strike only to have them blown out again while he was climbing down the ladder, so he had to repeat the exercise again.

[Pulse]

BigJim, great post, the point many have tried to make, Kudos to you!
As I said the problem is the cultural shift to get the sparkies to agree!

Pulse

[Gra]

After all it's not brain surgury?

Some people may argue this:D:D

[Malibu]

As I said the problem is the cultural shift to get the sparkies to agree!


This has turned out to be a great discussion!
I wonder if the OCEI has got wind of it and is ready to add an official word on the matter?

Now to toss a bit more fuel on the fire;
It's not a matter of a cultural shift or us sparkies agreeing. I for one don't care if people do thier own wiring (but if I'm asked, I will recommend to get an electrician and I won't tell how to do it), but the law is the law, and the law says you need an 'A' grade licence for installation work (and a contractors ticket if you want to get paid).
It's a great idea that people 'rough in' the wiring, do all the leg work and etc with a sparky doing the fit-off. As the systems stands at the moment (in Victoria, anyway) if I sign a Certificate of Electrical Safety after someone else roughs in, I'm responsible for that job.

Let's say it's an underground cable. Joe Bloggs digs the trench to 300mm, runs the grey pipe, and forgets to use glue. He backfills and I come and fit it all off. I sign the ticket and then promptly get reamed by the OCEI for doing sub-standard work. If someone is killed because they drive a crowbar into a live underground that's too shallow, it's my neck in the noose. 'Negligent man slaughter' is the correct term and I can't afford a barrister to get me out of the deep pile of dung I'd be in.
Most sparkies would cringe at the idea that might happen. We have to work with the rules that are given to us and the only one that can change that fact is the chief electrical inspector.

Soap box is packed away again :)

[boban]

It's a great idea that people 'rough in' the wiring, do all the leg work and etc with a sparky doing the fit-off. As the systems stands at the moment (in Victoria, anyway) if I sign a Certificate of Electrical Safety after someone else roughs in, I'm responsible for that job.



We had this discussion in another thread, but even that is illegal without the sparky watching over your shoulder. That's the stupidity of it all.

No one should/would expect you to sign off on the underground stuff in the situation you described, but I dont think that most people in favour of a degree of DIY legal capacity would advocate such a situation. But if the guy left open the 600mm deep trench complete with the orange HD conduit for you to inspect, you wouldn't have a problem with that would you?

I think I made myself clear as to what I think should be allowed. I dont want to see anyone get hurt, but my argument will alway be that an open discussion of the AS is not a dangerous thing.

This enables people to do the rough in properly. Roughing in is not a dangerous activity and one not particular enjoyed by sparkies. You can have your box back now.

Funny how such a boring thread has had so much interest:p

[stolar]

i cannot believe it has been over 12 hours without opinion (new, repeated or otherwise) on this ! :confused: :rolleyes:

C'mon people you can do better then that! ;)

This is the thread where sparks shoudl continue to fly (pun intended !) :p
It has created such a "tension" and "current" of ideas (and other matter i might add).

Maybe it is becasue it is such a simple matter, electricity.
There are only two possible faults in any electical circuit. You either have a connection where you shouldn't have or you don't have one where you should have it. Simple really, don't know what is all the fuss about! :p :rolleyes:

[MurrayD99]

........... expect you to sign off on the underground stuff in the situation you described.....

Funny how such a boring thread has had so much interest:p

Well! This opens Act II. All this time we have been thinking about overhead lines and wires running through ceilings. Underground! This is a new dimension. I didn't know you could pipe electricity that way. How would you go about tapping into an underground pipe full of electrons, neurons... whatever. Can't see the alligator clips being a lot of use here. Can we have a subversive bit of DIY advice on how one might approach this sort of project and what would be best practice and what would be on the fringe of dodgy? Oh ho. We will still be here Friday.

[thatirwinfella]

NO I TELL A LIE. I have seen them work in the rain during a rain storm up here where they climbed up the pole on a ladder to push the arm transformer fuses back in after they were blown out by a lightening strike only to have them blown out again while he was climbing down the ladder, so he had to repeat the exercise again.

thats fault finding powercor style. keep throwing in bigger fuses until it goes bang somewhere else, keep doing this till it stops and the fault will either disappear or become someone elses problem

[Malibu]

Speaking of going bang, a funny thing happened to me at the office today...
A breakdown on one of the machines that uses a buss-bar system. No problems, I get to it after a few other breakdowns and go to move the part of the machine that was the problem.
**BANG!**
Sparks fly after a 315A fuse pops from a dead short over 415V. Ok, that's cool, so I switch off the mains and figure I'll have to fix it on the spot.
First things first, time for some relief and I head off to the toilet block.
I'm halfway back to the job and there's black smoke billowing up from the machine and flames reaching over the control board...
Holy blazes!!!
I take off like it was home time, because there's no-one else within 100 yards of it and rip a fire extinguisher off the wall running full speed.
By this stage, there's flames up around the top of the buss-bars (5 meters high) and black smoke from the burning foam filing the factory. I couldn't get the pin out of the F/E without fumbling my fingers and getting a gash in my thumb to prove it.
By this stage, I'm getting close to copping a lung-full of rubber filled smoke so I hit the fire and fortunately, out it goes pretty quick.
By now, the side of the factory where I was working was getting pretty full up with smoke, but now I'm getting fire extinguisher fumes thrown into the mixture as well. By now, there's a few people around who open doors, etc and out I go into the fresh air for a splutter and a spit...
Ever get those days when you think, "Shoulda stayed home!"? :(

By the way, this has nothing to do with home wiring... I just thought it might be an entertaining story at my expense :)

[outback]

Now, if an untrained home wirer had done the job, all would be well, that's the trouble with pro - fessionals

[silentC]

With due respect Silent, I don't think that is the argument, the argument that the electrical authorities make is that the regulations needed for the safety of the public hence their strict restrictions on who can obtain a wiring license. The statistics that pharmaboy2 has produced shows this not to be the case. Yes, by all means be cautious of statistics, but if you don't believe them perhaps you can find some alternative figures. I think in reality the death rate from electrocution is very small and you will have to look very hard to find an actual death from faulty wiring rather than unsafe work practice (for example, working on live circuits) or by inadvertently coming in contact with overhead lines.
There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory.

The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

I know fools will be fools and, with luck, they will eliminate themselves from the gene pool, it's the innocent ones who inherit or buy the dodgily wired house that I worry about.

Some sort of course and a test would be good, if it was implemented properly. I also think that there should be nothing wrong with doing part of the job yourself under the guidance of a licensed person. It should be up to them to ensure that you are doing the right thing and to check it. At the end of the day, no one will ever know if your sparky is happy to sign off on work you have done. It's his backside on the line. I'm much more comfortable with that than taking away the requirement for a licensed contractor.

[MurrayD99]

There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory.

The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

I know fools will be fools and, with luck, they will eliminate themselves from the gene pool, it's the innocent ones who inherit or buy the dodgily wired house that I worry about.

Some sort of course and a test would be good, if it was implemented properly. I also think that there should be nothing wrong with doing part of the job yourself under the guidance of a licensed person. It should be up to them to ensure that you are doing the right thing and to check it. At the end of the day, no one will ever know if your sparky is happy to sign off on work you have done. It's his backside on the line. I'm much more comfortable with that than taking away the requirement for a licensed contractor.

Not wishing to divert this thread, Mr C, I think it is a bit similar to what they are doing here with herbicides and insecticides - you got to get a licence to "handle" them before you can buy the more useful varieties. It is no big deal. Now if you could demonstrate prior skills (still alive and kicking) with big alligator clips and a red screwdriver.... and could explain this potential difference thing, why not? Oh no. I swore off this.... Class is out - Yes Sir! We done gone....

[outback]

I can explain the potential difference thing...No seriously I can.


I saw this a while ago, Silents comment reminded me of it.

"I'm not saying that there should be capital punishment for stupidity, just that we should take the safety warnings off things and let nature take its course."

[MurrayD99]

I can explain the potential difference thing...No seriously I can.





I saw this a while ago, Silents comment reminded me of it.


"I'm not saying that there should be capital punishment for stupidity, just that we should take the safety warnings off things and let nature take its course."



Ahhhh... Mr Outback, you been away a while? Is this related to the concept that the Highway Patrol is interfering with natural selection? I think, on balance, it probably is. Is this esoteric, v the 11KVA thread? No. I think not. Wo ist Benny? Got a view here? Is the term not yet ended?

[pharmaboy2]

it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.


Its a bit like trying to prove a null hypothesis - it cant be done, you can only disprove a positive one - while its perfectly legitimate to use logic to expect that more rules equal greater safety, when the information to support the case shows the opposite, you need to examine the logic of the assumption.

Taking away the restrictions probably wont improve safety (although its possible they could), so youre right, it doesnt necessarily follow, but I'm not sure if anyones claimed that withdrawing all restrictions will reduce the electrocution rate - it just seems that prima facie, the restrictions have offered us no advantage for safety compared to our peers (similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires).

The classic example in this thread (the one you couldnt kill with a stick), is that even running your own cables for the sparky to connect and check is illegal - LOL that ones funny, especially considering you can change an appliance plug! dont we all love beaurocracy!

[bennylaird]

Ahhhh... Mr Outback, you been away a while? Is this related to the concept that the Highway Patrol is interfering with natural selection? I think, on balance, it probably is. Is this esoteric, v the 11KVA thread? No. I think not. Wo ist Benny? Got a view here? Is the term not yet ended?

Just observing, have put forward my point of view, argue all we like but there are some diyers out there who need to wake up before their woken up by an example of V=IR. Common sense rules and some missed out on that issue in the gene pool.

Anyway this is a friday thread alternative:D :D :D :D

[Honorary Bloke]

(similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires).

I agree that we get no particular benefit, but I would hardly class it as an experiment at this stage. We couldn't change now if we wanted to--too expensive. :eek:

Benny, glad to see you back in the fray. :D :D

[bennylaird]

WE have a vacancy at the moment for a self motivated diyer to experiment with some wiring. It's the Pommy cricket team, I think they need a bit of a rewire and a surge of current? Any ideas as everything else has failed?

[chrisp]

There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory.


I suspect we do know why the legislation is the way it is - to keep a closed shop:)

I base my suspicion on a email and telephone conversation I've had with the Victorian OCEI sometime ago. I wanted to see if I could get a license that would allow me to legally do wiring at my own home. [I'm talking fairly basic stuff here and I do not have any intention of replacing anytime prior to the switchboard.]. I emailed the OCEI to inquire about an "occupier's license" [which is a license intended for engineers that would allow them to do work only on their own residence]. I'm an electrical engineer and work as a electrical engineer so I've got a bit of an idea about electricity. I'm happy to do any reasonable training and course work required to get an occupier's license so I asked what was required. I received an answer by telephone and it was a bit like a conversation out of "Yes, Minister!". It seemed that I'd need to sit the appropriate exams on AS3000 (no real drama there) and I'd also have to do 80 hours supervised work with an licensed electrician (no problem at my end). Okay, so far sounds promising, then came the "But". I cannot recall the details exactly, but to do the supervised work I'd have to have an S-permit (okay, no problem) and then I'd have to have a supervised workers license but to get a supervised workers license I'd have to be formally employed an an apprentice. The exact conversation is hazy, but the bottom line was that the only way to get a license is via an apprenticeship - there was no other way.

I know there are some here how would argue that it would take four years to learn the practical aspects of the trade, just like it took me four years to become an engineer. But if I fronted up to an engineering course and I'd already done a similar course, most institutes would allow exemptions on the common material covered in the different courses. I think I should be allowed to meet the the electrical wiring license requirements in less than 4 years.

Also, it doesn't seem reasonable that overseas qualified electricians need to do a whole 4-years again to meet Australian regulations.

The workforce is now fairly dynamic. Not only do people change jobs more often, they also change careers. The trades should be open for older people to take up later in life.


The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.


I accept your point to a degree. My issue is that safety is used to justify the closed shop regulations. Judging by some of the responses in this thread the safety propaganda machine is doing a very good job!

I'm not proposing a free-for-all in regard to wiring. I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license?

I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it? [I doubt it would do any good talking to the OCEI - it'd be like complaining about a real estate agent to the REIV!]. Does anyone have experience with having regulations changed?

Chris

[And who are those people chatting in the background of this thread:confused:]