I Really Cracked It Last Night!

[ernknot]

About to have dinner last night and the news was on. Again for the umpteenth time I am reminded that I belong to a group of males who are labeled as child molestors, sexual predators, wife beaters, bigamists, adulterers, voyers, etc. etc. etc. I was totally p#$&&d off.
This anti male propaganda right down from the Fed. Gov to a bunch of self centrered men haters is getting right up my nose. Why is it that we are all branded the same? Surley 100% of all men can't be as outlined above?? Is this some sort of push by womens lobby to turn all males into eunichs? What the hell is going on? This crap is on every day on the radio and TV., what is the purpose? If it is about women having equlity then I have missed the boat somewhere. I don't deny anyone equality but I do get a bit stroppy when the same people seeking equality turn this into a " all men are child molesters, sexual predators .................................."
I will not give up my family jewels.

[Wood Butcher]

I had an incident on Monday along these lines. SWMBO and I went shopping and she wanted to try on some clothes. I sat down on the seat outside the change rooms waiting for SWMBO. While I was sitting there a couple and their young kids (in the trolley) came in and the mother waited outside with the kids. The little girl looked over to me smiled and waved so I smiled and waved back. The mother didn't see her daughter but saw me wave back and immediately gave me the foulest look and moved away.
When her partner came out it was obvious that she was mouthing off to him and nodding over in my direction. Now if I had my kids with me or it was SWMBO waiting for me it would have been a totally different scenario.

[silentC]

Again for the umpteenth time I am reminded that I belong to a group of males who are labeled as child molestors, sexual predators, wife beaters, bigamists, adulterers, voyers, etc. etc. etc.
Not with you ernknot, what was it on the news that got you going? I don't watch the news so I missed it.

[old_picker]

The mother didn't see her daughter but saw me wave back and immediately gave me the foulest look and moved away.
When her partner came out it was obvious that she was mouthing off to him and nodding over in my direction..

It's not about making males into eunichs.

We live in a society where the abuse of women and children has been widely acknowledged. I don't feel that the level of violence to women and children has increased but certainly awareness has increased. In fact I beleive that in our society this type of violence has decreased in the past 30 years. For thousands of years the physically weaker members of our society have been indemically abused by unscrupulous males. In the past it was seen as the males right or in fact even duty to take this role.

At last women and children have been given a voice and their pain and suffering have been acknowledged. Today, we males suffer from misplaced suspicion, and sometimes more overt manifestations of that suspicion on occaision and unfortunately we need to just "GET OVER IT" As long as we conduct oureselves in caring and fair minded manner in respect to those who may be phyiscally not as powerful as we are, we have nothing to fear and should feel within ouselves that we are doing the right thing and what other people say or think on this subject doesn't apply to us.

So if you get odd stares or rude commentswhen you are seen waving at little kids in the shopping centre perhaps it may be prudent not to wave in future. Perhaps just a polite nod is enough to aknowledge that young person if you feel the need to.

It is difficult that we are seen as potential molesters or abusers but I fear it will take a long time before complete trust is given. We need to earn that trust and cop the negative attitude in the knowledge that all we are seeing is the manifesttion of the pain of many generations of abused people. I hope my grandsons and great grandsons are able to live in a world where they are trusted more than our generation.

It is sad that you can't interact with kids in public like this but just think of the kid who was raped and murdered in a shopping center in Melbourne a few short months ago. This encounter possibly started off with an innocent smile which invited the attentions of the monster who perpetrated this horrific crime. There is a good reason for parents to be suspicious of people interacting with their kids in shopping centers.

I will probably be flamed death over thsi post but I speak my mind and if you have a different view, we live in a democracy and you are entitled to it.

[ozwinner]

I will probably be flamed death over thsi post but I speak my mind and if you have a different view, we live in a democracy and you are entitled to it.


On that note.

Keep it nice guys.

Al :)

[Honorary Bloke]

On that note.

Keep it nice guys.

Al :)

In the military, we called this a preemptive strike. :D :D :rolleyes:

[meerkat]

rayc what you are saying is somewhat true. BUT

was that nice enough ?:D

Now this is not directed at rayc .....

Why is it that you never hear about violence against men ?
Why is it that WE have to suck it up and be treated like modern day lepers ?
Why is it that a male cannot be seated next to an unaccompanied minor on QANTAS flights ?
Why is it that more money is spent on womens health than mens ? (Just as many men die from testicular cancer as women do from breast cancer)
Why is it that Australia has the highest incidence of male suicide in the world ?
Why is it that in order to be a man we have to be more like women ?
Why is it that you never hear about women assaulting children ? Believe me it happens.

Why is it that one negative inference directed to a minority group is sexist, racist, biggotry, discriminatory etc but when directed to an Australian male it's ok ?

The pendulum needs to swing back to the centre where EVERYONE is treated and seen the same.

The real question ....

Why is it that we sit there and cop this abuse and do nothing about it ?

Why ? Maybe because we are doing what we are told to do and that is "suck it up", "be a man", "stop complaining" or maybe we have already been effectively castrated.

ps. What kind of people or society are we going to have when we say a male, even a 5 times grandfather cannot smile or wave to a child in an open place. Maybe we will teach the kids that all males are pedophiles and cannot be trusted (which is clearly not true) ? What kind of human interaction will there be then ?

What will the suicide rate be when men feel that they are no longer respected and are treated as though they are worthless ?

Oh wait, we are already well and truly on our way.

I'll put the box away now :D

[silentC]

Why is it that we sit there and cop this abuse and do nothing about it ?

Because that's what we have been taught to do. Everyone gets a fair run except us but I'm actually OK with that. I can't help what other people think about me, so I don't let it get to me. I try to be non-threatening when I'm around women and kids I don't know. I have empathy for how they feel, even if I think they are wrong to feel that way. It's just our lot in life, like when our grandfathers were young their lot was to go and die in a ditch for King and country.

The trade off is that we get to have sheds and tools and footy and cricket and beer. There's always an upside, you just have to look for it. They mightn't trust us but they almost expect us to act like 15 year olds.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Every one of us gets to wear a label. Before you complain how bad it is to be labelled a white male think about other peoples labels.. male of middle eastern background.... young asian male or god forbide a female!!!
We don't have it that bad do we?

[silentC]

think about other peoples labels
The difference is they all have lobby groups and support groups and whatever other groups to fight against discrimination. Some of them even have legislation to support them.

For instance, did you know that 'aboriginality' is a recognised job requirement under the anti-discrimination act which actually makes it legal for an employer to discriminate against non-indigenous job seekers?

Who's out there to make sure 40 year old white males can get jobs easily huh? No one, that's who!!

But then I guess we don't need it, ain't that right?

[Gra]

.It is sad that you can't interact with kids in public like this but just think of the kid who was raped and murdered in a shopping center in Melbourne a few short months ago. This encounter possibly started off with an innocent smile which invited the attentions of the monster who perpetrated this horrific crime. There is a good reason for parents to be suspicious of people interacting with their kids in shopping centers.


Yet still about 90% of abuse cases are not perpetrated by the random stranger in the shopping centre, but by either a trusted family member, family friend or "Comunity Elder"...

Yet all men in public are treated like lepers,

PS> Statistics created using the PIOMA Method

[Bleedin Thumb]

The poor forgotten underclass - middle age white males.
Don't worry come the revolution brother ......

[Bleedin Thumb]

Yet all men in public are treated like lepers,


Mate I'm not treated as a leper.

Until there is no childhood abuse from males you can't expect society to be relaxed about it. You can't just expect to be trusted as a stranger by every mother ( and father ) because you know that you don't have a problem.
You are not being judged by society because you are male, you are being judged because you are a stranger and its a scary world full of sick people.:o
I find myself being defensive of my kids when there is a male (and sometimes females) I don't know around them, I think its a primoidal response more than a cultural one.:rolleyes:

[Gra]

Mate I'm not treated as a leper.

Until there is no childhood abuse from males can you expect society to be relaxed about it. You can't just expect to be trusted as a stranger by every mother ( and father ) because you know that you don't have a problem.
You are not being judged by society because you are male, you are being judged because you are a stranger and its a scary world full of sick people.:o
I find myself being defensive of my kids when there is a male (and sometimes females) I don't know around them, I think its a primoidal response more than a cultural one.:rolleyes:


My point is it isnt usually the strangers you have to worry about....

[Bleedin Thumb]

My point is it isnt usually the strangers you have to worry about....

Agreed, but the human mind doesn't work like:-

"Ok he's a stranger so I can trust him" or
"I know that bloke... get away from my kid"

[Studley 2436]

I suppose when I am places like changerooms with my kids and I am waiting outside the changeroom I make a bit of a show of being there with them. Yep there is a bit of anti male sentiment out and about but you can't do much about that. You just have to try and makesure you don't end up being a victim of it.

My kids are noisy enough so we make enough noise, I say you go in there and I'll wait out here. If they take time I call through the door to hurry up they give me lip back I threaten to think up some punishment for them it's all good fun but everyone else thinks I am just being a good Dad.

The media doesn't report females sexually mollesting children much because it isn't allowed by the various feminist lobbies.

I notice too that women can nag harass scold scorn a man until he is past his wit's end but if he even raises his voice he has offended her rights. In the past if a woman behaved so badly she got a smack in the chops to put her in her place. Today a man is permitted no defence. GAWD I even had the ex SWMBO pursue me out to the shed when I was only trying to escape from her harassing attack. A piece of hardwood about 2 foot long and inch and half square fell to the floor and I picked it up she was still in my face and hysterical and only because she was stressed with an exam that week. Nothing I had done she was inventing it as she went along and digging herself and her perception of me deeper and deeper and I was holding that piece of timber and thinking it would be just so easy to belt her until she died and it would be just what she deserved. Rest easy guys I put the timber back on the shelf and stepped away from her. But this feminist thing of all rights and no responsibilities is a cancer.

Yep there is a lack of respect both for men and women and it suits the activists really well . People like us in the real world have to pay a price for it though

Studley

[echnidna]

I more or less agree with most of the comments that have been made.

We live in an age where society is more openly informed so parents and carers see dangers so must be ever vigilant against sex offenders etc.

I was very surprised at a report a few days ago that 70% of all sex offences occur against kids under 12.

Parents & carers must be ever vigilant.

[Rossluck]

Richard Fiedler, a broadcaster with ABC radio, often talks bout how males are misrepresented in today's society. But let's face it, it takes just one knucklehead like Martin Bryant and all of the millions of good ones are blown out of the water. That's it.

We can say hello to a kid in a shopping centre, and defend it, but what about that poor girl in Perth, shopping with her brother and step dad (from memory), and she committed the crime of using the toilets.

There are no answers, just pain all around....

[Groggy]

I read a very interesting article a few months ago. In a study of managers and abuse of their powers, there was no difference between females and males; about 5% of both abused their power in the workplace.

[Clinton1]

think about other peoples labels

How about 'man' and 'woman' for some labels we should think about?

I find it interesting that these people will flock to a label and not stop to realise that 'if all humans should be treated on the strength of their merits' then its probably better to just use the single label of 'human'... till a new label is needed. i.e. tosser, moron, thief, fool....

Feminism (as an example) is not an 'ism that is needed in my world... I'm happy to stick with just treating everyone with a bit of common decency.

I also find that those that want to jump behind an 'ism generally feel pretty free with attacking those that are
1) not of their persuasion, and
2) 'stronger' than them.
Combine it with the "Oh, poor bloody me" whinge and its a sure sign of an oxygen thief.

It gives me the ##### to see this willingness to 'attack the stronger'... reminds me of a flock of crows pecking the eyes out of a cow thats stuck in a dam.

At the end of the day though.... they can all stick it, 'cause I don't give too much thought to them....
I think that if I'm going to influence anything, it won't be the faceless collection of whingers and fools called 'society', it will be those close to me.

[dazzler]

click!
:p

Try ABC radio. Mellow and generally okay.

[Terry B]

rayc what you are saying is somewhat true. BUT

was that nice enough ?:D

Now this is not directed at rayc .....


Why is it that more money is spent on womens health than mens ? (Just as many men die from testicular cancer as women do from breast cancer)


I'll put the box away now :D
I have no info on the other parts of this post (that is snipped for space reasons) but this is not correct.
Breast cancer has a lifetime risk of 1 in 13 for women and testicular cancer is about 1 in 1000.
I am not sure what the breakdown of health spending between women and men is but I have never seen health dollars being discriminated by gender. Women see their GP more than men due to pregnancy related issues and contraception. After the age of 50 the visit numbers correlate with the ratio of men to women in each age group.

[Wood Butcher]

Breast cancer has a lifetime risk of 1 in 13 for women and testicular cancer is about 1 in 1000.

That sounds about right, but what about the lifetime risk of developing some form of prostate cancer being approximately 30% (actual deaths is around 3% but we all twist statistics to our advantage:p)(source: Urological Society of Aust and NZ).

Why, because the government spends Millions promoting Breast Screens for women including dedicated trucks driving around this state all the time. Where's the van for men to have their prostates checked!:mad:

[Studley 2436]

yep I do know that the incidence of Breast Cancer in women and Prostate Cancer in men is basically the same. As said lots of attention for Breast cancer and not much for Prostate. But that is all to do with women getting noisy about it

Studley

[Wood Butcher]

Exactly Studley,

Which is why Movember is a great idea. I would have joined but since I've had one for almost 10 years I'm already ahead. I donate mostly to the Cancer fund anyway as there have been a couple of cases of cancer (thankfully both cured) in my family and one very close friend have gone because of it.

[keith53]

I suppose when I am places like changerooms with my kids and I am waiting outside the changeroom I make a bit of a show of being there with them. Yep there is a bit of anti male sentiment out and about but you can't do much about that. You just have to try and makesure you don't end up being a victim of it.

My kids are noisy enough so we make enough noise, I say you go in there and I'll wait out here. If they take time I call through the door to hurry up they give me lip back I threaten to think up some punishment for them it's all good fun but everyone else thinks I am just being a good Dad.

The media doesn't report females sexually mollesting children much because it isn't allowed by the various feminist lobbies.

I notice too that women can nag harass scold scorn a man until he is past his wit's end but if he even raises his voice he has offended her rights. In the past if a woman behaved so badly she got a smack in the chops to put her in her place. Today a man is permitted no defence. GAWD I even had the ex SWMBO pursue me out to the shed when I was only trying to escape from her harassing attack. A piece of hardwood about 2 foot long and inch and half square fell to the floor and I picked it up she was still in my face and hysterical and only because she was stressed with an exam that week. Nothing I had done she was inventing it as she went along and digging herself and her perception of me deeper and deeper and I was holding that piece of timber and thinking it would be just so easy to belt her until she died and it would be just what she deserved. Rest easy guys I put the timber back on the shelf and stepped away from her. But this feminist thing of all rights and no responsibilities is a cancer.

Yep there is a lack of respect both for men and women and it suits the activists really well . People like us in the real world have to pay a price for it though

Studley

Good stuff Mate. Thanks for your honesty. You've just reinforced one of the reasons I like this forum so much - you meet good, honest people - mostly.:)

[E. maculata]

Instead of griping about how much money is spent on our ladies health issues, why not take the stance of "great now that funding and project is secure & working let's see if we can do the same for males"
Don't begrudge, bemoan, and be jealous, instead let's be proactive:cool: .


let Aussie males be as proactive as the other lobby groups, and watch things improve.

[ozwinner]

let Aussie males be as proactive as the other lobby groups, and watch things improve.


Well put old chap..

Al :cool: :)

[Clinton1]

let Aussie males be as proactive as the other lobby groups, and watch things improve.


gotta get over the 'can't be stuffed' hurdle first. ;) :D

[Terry B]

That sounds about right, but what about the lifetime risk of developing some form of prostate cancer being approximately 30% (actual deaths is around 3% but we all twist statistics to our advantage:p)(source: Urological Society of Aust and NZ).

Why, because the government spends Millions promoting Breast Screens for women including dedicated trucks driving around this state all the time. Where's the van for men to have their prostates checked!:mad:



Now wouldn't that be a great job.:D Spending all day cooped up in a bus knowing that every guy that comes in is there for one purpose only. Digit time!
The problem is that there are good and bad outcome for health screening. Some examples
Screening with pap smears is very effective. A premalignant condition can be detected and very effective treatment is available significantly reducing the rate of progression to cancer of the cervix.

Screening with mammogram detects early cancer (not premalignant but actual disease). This gives the possibility of early treatment resulting in a reduction of mortaility for breast cancer of about 30%- but only on women over 50 yrs. No significant reduction in mortality occurs for women screened under 40. Between these ages is a grey area.

Prostate screening by DRE (the finger in the date) over age 50 can detect cancer of the prostate earlier than otherwise but no improvement in survival has been demonstrated. This is why screening of asymptomatic men is not advocated by the RACGP (GP college) at present. The problem is that there is no simple treatment for early prostate cancer like there is with the pap smear changes. If it is found you a stuck with a dilemma. You have to choose between surgery that might give you a cure but might also render you incontinent and almost certainly impotent versus non curative treatment that will prpbably keep the tumour at bay for many years. It may eventially kill you but you will probably die of something else before this happens. How do you decide? I haven't yet had to make this decision but my grandfather did die of prostate disease so my risk is raised.
Decisions that we have to make.

[bsrlee]

Interestingly this just got a write-up in MX (freebie commuter paper in Sydney) today (29/11). Seems all the negative media attention about males is creating a generation of rapist/thugs as that is the only 'male image' that is being allowed thru' the media.

[meerkat]

I'm impressed with the responses to this, IMO most if not all responses have been balanced and we certainly haven't gone rayc either ;):D

Guys the way I see it is that whilst we (as parents) must remain vigilent (and I have no problem with that) we as males need to move past this "couldn't be stuffed" stance to lets do more to improve our lot, whether it be in health, as fathers or just as men.

If we don't do it for us we need to do it for our kids (boys & girls) so that they can do the right thing when it's their turn. Isn't that what good parenting is about ?

[namtrak]

As an anglo saxon middle aged male in Australia I feel I belong to the one of the more privileged cliques on the planet.

Can I walk across a car park at night without scoping for dangerous dark areas, interlopers, people in parked cars? Yes

Can I go into a public toilet and not think twice or have an older person guarding the door? Yes

Can I wander the streets of Cronulla or Lakemba! without fear? Yes

Am I worried that the State will knock my door down and drag me away in the middle of the night never to be seen again? No

Do I keep a wary eye on my partner, worried that they could punch into me or my kids anytime without warning? No

Do I have to go out on the turps with someone else to watch my back/bag/drink all night? No

Can I get credit/mortgage with little to zero drama? Yes

Do I have people constantly passing judgement on what I wear? No

Do I have people constantly passing judgement on how I speak? No

Do I have much patience for other men in my position who squark about how the squeaky wheel gets the oil, or how fascist interest groups are creating neo-political agendas, or how hard done by they are? Not really.

Am I off that some men in my position have abused, raped, beaten, taken advantage of, ripped off, assualted those that are weaker than them? You bloody well bet I am!! Do I say anything? Every single time.

Cheers

[silentC]

Can I wander the streets of ... Lakemba! without fear? Yes
Umm, you might want to rethink that one mate ;)

[Rossluck]

I suppose when I am places like changerooms with my kids and I am waiting outside the changeroom I make a bit of a show of being there with them. Yep there is a bit of anti male sentiment out and about but you can't do much about that. You just have to try and makesure you don't end up being a victim of it.

My kids are noisy enough so we make enough noise, I say you go in there and I'll wait out here. If they take time I call through the door to hurry up they give me lip back I threaten to think up some punishment for them it's all good fun but everyone else thinks I am just being a good Dad.

The media doesn't report females sexually mollesting children much because it isn't allowed by the various feminist lobbies.

I notice too that women can nag harass scold scorn a man until he is past his wit's end but if he even raises his voice he has offended her rights. In the past if a woman behaved so badly she got a smack in the chops to put her in her place. Today a man is permitted no defence. GAWD I even had the ex SWMBO pursue me out to the shed when I was only trying to escape from her harassing attack. A piece of hardwood about 2 foot long and inch and half square fell to the floor and I picked it up she was still in my face and hysterical and only because she was stressed with an exam that week. Nothing I had done she was inventing it as she went along and digging herself and her perception of me deeper and deeper and I was holding that piece of timber and thinking it would be just so easy to belt her until she died and it would be just what she deserved. Rest easy guys I put the timber back on the shelf and stepped away from her. But this feminist thing of all rights and no responsibilities is a cancer.

Studley

I was thinking about this post as I worked today, and I want to join Keith in congratulating Studley on his honesty and ... bravery. :D :D :D :D :D :D

I often said to friends and family when I was going through a separation and a divorce: being a middle aged male immediately makes you eighty percent guilty of everything.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Good thread this,
We middle aged males are expressing our feelings! !!!

And I think that may be a part of the problem.
Our parents didn't. How many of our fathers would shake our hands at night as we went to bed! Emotions were for sheila's.
You cant blame them, they also got brought up by males who were emotional cripples.

So now we have a generation of guys that want to be relevant in the family and society but were facing a judgmental society that has been enamoured by negative stereotypes.
If this forum is a snapshot of Australian males we may be finding our voice and that will be a good thing for my boys at least.

In the meantime I just keep my head down and get on with being me.

[ozwinner]

How many of our fathers would shake our hands at night as we went to bed! .

:eek: Gees you were privalegd to get that even..

Al :eek: :(

[ernknot]

I appreciate all the comments and think that this turned out to be a very constructive thread. I most certainly have no problenm with parents and guardians/ carers being ever watchfull and commend them for doing so. I just had to get this male bashing off my chest and find out how others felt about the subject. I feel better now knowing that others share my view to some extent.

[silentC]

I've got a fat lip this morning.

I bent down to give my son a kiss on the head as I left for work and just as I did he jumped up and nutted me! That's my boy!! :D ;)

[namtrak]

Reminds me of the time about 25 years ago when my little brother (I think he was about 3yo) was wandering around the house with a steel curtain rod. The rod was about 6 foot long and he was holding it straight up in the air. He wandered into the bedroom where the old man was having a snooze, and walked up to the foot of the bed and promptly let the end of the rod drop straight onto the old man's nose!!! All I heard him say to mum was (muttered I might add) "Get that kid out of here". My little brother is still alive today, so mum must have got him far enough away!!!

[Bleedin Thumb]

:eek: Gees you were privalegd to get that even..

Al :eek: :(

Al it sounds like the start to the 4 Yorkshiremen.

Handshake....luxury, all we got is smack around head with broken bottle.:D

[Eddie Jones]

.....You can't just expect to be trusted as a stranger by every mother ( and father ) because you know that you don't have a problem.
You are not being judged by society because you are male, you are being judged because you are a stranger and its a scary world full of sick people.:o

What about childhood abuse from females? Doesn't happen? Yet females (generally) are not treated with suspicion around children. Why not? According to your logic they should be (judged because you are a stranger). What about the female stranger seated next to the unaccompanied child on the Qanta flight? Has the airline checked if she is a known child molester? I think not. And if they did they would suffer the venom of every "wimmins" group in the country. Get real!

[Bleedin Thumb]

Yes Eddie, you have a point, in some cases things have become stupid aka the Quantas thing.
I think that woman are more relaxed about other women near their kids ( and I am guessing because I would have the foggiest how women think!):confused: because :-

1. Abuse by females is either less reported or is less common, I don't know which?

2. Some sort of wierd maternal bond with other women once they have had a child. Sounds weird but I bet there is something in it.

3. Women are naturally less uptight around other women than they are around men.

Men on the other hand are uncomfortable around other men and around women unless we have got to know them.:rolleyes: Probably why some of us can discuss personal feeling via the faceless BB.

[namtrak]

What about childhood abuse from females? Doesn't happen? Yet females (generally) are not treated with suspicion around children. Why not?.......

That would be because between 85% to 95% of all abuse is perpertrated by males. Doesn't take much research on the net to figure that out.

None of the nuns in the Catholic Church around Chicago were found guilty of sexual abuse charges emanating from that infamous enclave.

Ask yourself this. Who would you rather have look after your 10 yo child on a school camp. A male monsignor or a female teachers aide?

[meerkat]

Namtrak, with all due respect, I think you need to review some of your questions.

For one I don't feel safe walking streets at night or even getting public transport. How many men have been beaten or killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I was in Sydney earlier this year walking back to the casino from darling harbour with my wife and got harassed by a group of young men, they even threw stuff at us. And you tell me I am safe !!

Whilst we are better off than many, it does not justify the ill treatment we do get.

Just because a small minority perpertrate horendous crimes doesn't mean we are all the same. To label every male an abuser because some small section do is wrong. Thats the same as labelling all muslims terrorists just because a minority are. Is that wrong. YES

Like labelling all judges as crooks because one happens to be one. Is that wrong. YES.

Like labelling all pollies as ...... oh that doesn't work;):D

Whats next, just because my neighbour got caught speeding I'm not allowed to drive, or the guy at the pub got drunk and beat his wife you are a wife beater ?

Clearly not.

I believe what people are really saying here is that yes, be careful, be vigilent, protect those that are vulnerable BUT that does not mean create a new section in society to blame, pick on, accuse, suspect, denegrate, harass or just plain victimise.

This is what many men are feeling, that we are becoming just that. A group in society that it is acceptable to pick on because they don't have a voice.

Take a look in the US, the new acceptable group to pick on are the "trailer trash" it's ok why because they don't have a voice like the others. Once they get a voice, it will shift to another group.

What is needed is a voice, a voice for everyone, a place that everyone can feel safe, loved and respected.

Yes we are lucky but that doesn't mean theres nothing wrong, but until men stand up and say something it's only going to get worse and what will that be like for our kids and grandkids.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Yes we are lucky but that doesn't mean theres nothing wrong, but until men stand up and say something it's only going to get worse and what will that be like for our kids and grandkids.

Hi Meerkat,
What are we supposed to say.. Stop showing anti rape and abuse ads on TV that are aimed at males because I am a male and I dont do those things?
Those ads are unpalatable but I don't let them offend me as I'm not the one they're aimed at and I can't see why blokes get so defensive over them.:confused:

There are plenty of guys out there that need to take head of those ads like the ####'s that abused you.:mad:

An important way to stop this #### is public education because a lot of young blocks don't have the parental role models that we had (as poor as that was). Think of that #### of a father of the boys charged with gang rape in Sydney last year defending their behavour saying the girl desirved it.

I agree that what we need is a place that is safe loving etc etc, but is that going to happen, can't see it myself.

Society is going to hell on a fast train IMHO and all we can do is to protect ourselves and our families as best we can and try to instill in your kids a code of behaviour that shows respect to all humans, saves the whales, protects the enviroment and saves lots of money to support you in your old age:D

[namtrak]

Meerkat, you make some very valid points. And I guess I should quantify stuff to say that is how I feel, not how all men should feel.

And I also can empathise with Studley and being frustrated to the point of aggression, however what is differentiating us from those that give us a bad name is that when the rubber hits the road we are able to restrain ourselves.

Your saying that men don't have a voice, and I guess my point (or my belief) is that since we first got here 200 years ago. White middle aged men have always been THE sole voice, and it is only in the last 30 years that disparate or disadvantaged groups have started to ask for their wheels to be oiled. I think it is a paradigm shift that we (men) are going to have to adjust to in whatever way we can. Either accept the changes or create our own voice.

[meerkat]

Namtrak, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we supress anyones voice and I know you are certainly not suggesting that we should.

But this concept that if anyones voice should not be heard is the males because we've been the "sole" voice for years is just not acceptable and should not be an excuse for allowing abuse or injustices towards men. (I know that is not you are suggesting either)

I also totally agree that we (as men) need to speak up, rather than sit back and take it like a man. This thread should be seen as an example of the concerns that are out there.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Your saying that men don't have a voice, and I guess my point (or my belief) is that since we first got here 200 years ago. White middle aged men have always been THE sole voice, and it is only in the last 30 years that disparate or disadvantaged groups have started to ask for their wheels to be oiled. I think it is a paradigm shift that we (men) are going to have to adjust to in whatever way we can. .

I agree with that and would also add that we are coping this flack because we probably deserve it. Not as individuals but as a group. We as a group has been responsible for or known of and done nothing about a lot of things that would never been allowed if everyone in society had equal voices over the last what 50, 100 or more years.

Society changes us dinosaurs just have to get used to it.

[meerkat]

I agree bleedin thumb.

The only reason I think we get "offended" by them is not that we are offended as such, we are just tired of the constant onslaught the media put out that eventually seeps into the subconcious that leads to more problems.

Education is the right way but who is willing to educate ? The governments ?

Geez kids have trouble spelling, reading, writing with maths etc, why would they do anything else if they cant get the basics working ?

Sorry I digressed :o

[Bleedin Thumb]

I agree bleedin thumb.

The only reason I think we get "offended" by them is not that we are offended as such, we are just tired of the constant onslaught the media put out that eventually seeps into the subconcious that leads to more problems.

Education is the right way but who is willing to educate ? The governments ?

:o

I think that is a problem with any educational or political campaign. If the subject matter is simply rammed down peoples throats it runs the risk of alienating a lot of people. Look at those grose quit smoking ads.People still are but gradually less and less.
But how do you tackle a problem that is so ingrained in society without some shock tactics?

[adrian]

I know a few people who were abused as children (male and female) and if some of us have to get our noses out of joint to stop other kids from going through what they have been through, then so be it. This problem is so common it would horrify most people if they knew the full extent of it.
It's only through this sort of publicity that anything has gotten done. You only have to look at the changes that have taken place in the XXXX church (self censored). Ten years ago if you got married to a woman you'd be kicked out of the church but if you abused (raped) fifty kids you would receive a good talking to and then moved to fresh ground.
I'm afraid you are going to have to take it on the chin for now because things are going to get worse before they get better.

[Rossluck]

To me, the issue here is, how do we weed out the pedophiles, rapists, wife bashers, and so on, without this thinly veiled blanket accusation that all males are barley restrained potential criminals?

It may come as a surprise to some excited protectors of all of the targets of male aggression that we don't all walk around with a view of children as sexual beings, or with a view of scantily clad women as "asking for it", or that we all think that it's OK to physically dominate women in some way.

In fact, if you could slip into OUR minds for a moment, you might find that these things horrify us as much as they do you, maybe more.

[Studley 2436]

I wonder if men would do themselves a favour by having a lash at the various criminals who abuse children?

Good men saying that animal not only harms an innocent child he harms upstanding and innocent men too and deserves the full force of the law. It might do something to highlight that most men are perfectly decent people

Studley (remembering my stepmonster and after what she did there is no pitt in hell deep enough for her)

[meerkat]

Adrian abuse in the "religious" environment is still going on, with recent changes ie police checks will help there but until people are educated and come forward with the support of the community etc this will not get "cleaned up". Maybe if the victims were treated more seriously rather than being the "instigators" things would get done.

As far as taking it on the chin... Well I see that a little different, say that to the muslim community and you will be given a serving. Say it to our indiginous people and they too will give you a serve, why because they are willing to stand up and say yes there are problems but don't imply we are all the problem.

So we don't speak up and what are we leaving our sons ? What are we telling them ? Everyone else has a voice, everyone else gets "protected", everyone else is valued but you my boy just take it like a man and live with it.

Just because the pendulum has swung too far the other way doesnt mean its right, we (as a society) need force it to the centre where everyone IS treated equally.

Don't get me wrong Adrian I'm not giving you a serve (although I suppose it does sound like it :o) I do understand what you are trying to say.

I also agree with Studley, we need to stand up and be seen to be against these people. Only one problem, there is no voice. There is no-one that gets on the media and speaks up to say we are not all abusers etc until then the only way the media etc do it is to paint everyone the same.

That means everyone should be painted as abusers coz they are everywhere.

Maybe the media should be more balanced with their reporting, maybe that would go to help the situation, maybe theres a shock ad for you to see a woman beating her husband, verbally abusing him, causing him mental anguish, telling people that whilst they are in the very slim minority there are women too that pray on children.

[meerkat]

I agree with that and would also add that we are coping this flack because we probably deserve it. Not as individuals but as a group. We as a group has been responsible for or known of and done nothing about a lot of things that would never been allowed if everyone in society had equal voices over the last what 50, 100 or more years.

Society changes us dinosaurs just have to get used to it.

Sorry I just read this.:o Oh and this is not directed at you bleedingthumb, its the topic I'm responding to.:)

I'd like to say, with all due respect BS.:p but can't, :D but would also like to say, this is how the government, the media and the special interest groups want us to think like.

uh oh I really sound like a rebel:o

Go around cap in hand apologising for all the bad deeds in the world. Well sorry for being a white male, but I will not be sorry for something I didn't do, I will not be held responsible for things I had no way of knowing about or doing etc.

Are women (as a group) sorry because men were sent white feathers because the women thought they should be going to war to die ?

Should governments and other groups be sorry and apologise for sending young men and women to war ? Should they apologise for the crap treatment these same people got when they returned ?

Every part of society could find something that other parts of society should be sorry for and hold that against them, but we don't.

We know there is a problem, we want to be part of the solution but don't blame us as a whole because this gets noone nowhere.

Sure society is changing, sure many people with voices now should have had louder ones in the past BUT are you telling me that a woman seeing/knowing of injustices couldn't say anything in the past.

For many many years women have influenced the outcome of things, they have been able to bring things to light, they too (as a group) are responsible for many of these injustances. The real issue here is a few things one of which is that in some cases, their voices were often muffled by not only men but other women, just as we take it like men theirs was don't rock the boat, don't upset the family etc.

How many times did mothers "take one for the team" and not say a thing to keep harmony in the house. Was it the right thing maybe, maybe not but their intent for the most part was true and good.

Sorry for my full on comments, maybe it's the lack of caffiene :D

[Bleedin Thumb]

Should governments and other groups be sorry and apologise for sending young men and women to war ? Should they apologise for the crap treatment these same people got when they returned ?


Well for Iraq and Vietnam possibly but even those two can be justified.

Should John Howard apologise to aboriginal Australians for the genicide that was perpetrated on them by previous Governments and the countries white inhabitants.?

I beleive yes. But Little Johnny obviously doesnt agree and I assume others here don't too.

I don't think and am not trying to say we walk around with our caps in hand.
We have to bring these issues out in the open- hence the offensive adds discuss the issues and resolve the problems. If our little male egos get a bit bruised well thats tuff.

I'd rather see those adds which maybe are saving a lot of missery, than living in a society where I knew my neighbours or family members were being abused and no one was saying a word ...hey that was only 10 years ago.
Once again I can't understand why these ads are offending you guys you should get thicker skins and stop being paranoid about what other people (women) think of you.

[dazzler]

Briiiiiing briiiiiiing, briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing,

Mr Psychologist, got some work for your at www.woodworkforums.com.au (http://www.woodworkforums.com.au).......


"Ill be right over" :)

[adrian]

Adrian abuse in the "religious" environment is still going on, with recent changes ie police checks will help there but until people are educated and come forward with the support of the community etc this will not get "cleaned up". Maybe if the victims were treated more seriously rather than being the "instigators" things would get done.


It's always going to go on but the thing that has changed is the way we deal with it. I remember being told by a teacher in a Sydney inner city primary school that one of the male teachers had been transfered to another school because he was molesting kids. Thankfully that method of dealing with the crime just doesn't happen any more.
I was told a few years ago by my parents that when we were staying at my aunts place my 8 year old cousin came in and put himself to bed in the middle of the day. Sorry to be so graphic but he was bleeding from the anus and it was obvious that he had been raped. That in itself is a terrible event but what made it infinitely worse was that no-one, including my parents, did anything about it because they were convinced that his father did it. This was in the late fifties and that's the way this sort of thing was swept under the carpet.
I know how everyone feels about the way we men are treated these days and I know only too well what it has done to the way we interact with kids. When my daughter was little it was a ritual that when she came out of the bath she would get some serious rasberries blown on her belly. It was something that would have both of us in fits. My three year old grandaughter is still innocent enough to have the same reaction that her mother did. The five year old is another matter entirely. She goes to school in New York and one of the first things they teach kids is the to be wary of the attentions of men. Needless to say, she doesn't get the rasberry treatment.
That innocence we had when we were kids is gone from kids these days but if that means that they don't experience what my friends and cousin went through it's got to be a good thing.

[Rossluck]

Briiiiiing briiiiiiing, briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing,

Mr Psychologist, got some work for your at www.woodworkforums.com.au (http://www.woodworkforums.com.au).......


"Ill be right over" :)


Don't go through the forum, Dazzler, give him your number.

[meerkat]

Adrian, nobody here is condoning the abusers behaviour, it is sick and abhorent. I know someone that knows of an abuser, the victim told them what happened.

That person went and spoke to legal people etc and was told that the victim had to bring it out not them. Tough cross to bear. Guess what the "alleged" abuser was a close family member.

I'm not suggesting we stop this campaign to make people aware, what I am suggesting is that there needs to be balance.

Heres another view, I agree to some extent that it's better not to get raspberries and not get the other. But what are children losing in the meantime, quality time with their parents ? What effect will that have on them and society later on?

What will happen when a little girl grows up and meets a good man (there are a few of us around:)) and does want to give her raspberries and then she starts to not trust him, oops more divorces, more suicides because innocent men are labelled abusers.

See the issue is not whether we should/should not protect others, thats a no brainer, the issue is that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Educate, explain why, show kids how to be careful with others, support the victims, punish the abusers.

Educate not discriminate.

Bleedinthumb, are you saying the vets deserved to be spat on ? Ostricised ? Unsupported ? IMO I don't believe you are.

But for those that do, take it up with your member of parliament don't take it out on the vets.

Oh wait it was the government that sent men and women to war, oh wait that same member most probably doesn't really appreciate the sacrifice those people made.

Like many people, I certainly have nothing to apologise for, I had nothing to do with it so why should an elected official representing me apologise for me on my behalf ? Does it hurt to do it, sorry is just a word, will that really make up for the hurt, no. What will is action, recognition, support etc.

I think we are basically on the same wavelength, maybe we are looking at it from different angles.

I think this thread has derailed itself from the original issue so maybe I should just shut up:D

[Eddie Jones]

That would be because between 85% to 95% of all abuse is perpertrated by males. Doesn't take much research on the net to figure that out.

None of the nuns in the Catholic Church around Chicago were found guilty of sexual abuse charges emanating from that infamous enclave.

Ask yourself this. Who would you rather have look after your 10 yo child on a school camp. A male monsignor or a female teachers aide?

Namtrak,

You're right, it doesn't take much research.
Try http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/files/fpsa.html That was the first hit on my Google search. They reckon 25% of perpetrators are women. I'm willing to bet that other sites would say even higher. So just where do you get your figure of 15%? Just pluck 'em out of the air like so many on this forum?

Eddie

[dazzler]

Don't go through the forum, Dazzler, give him your number.

he said: "please stop calling or I will take out a restraining order..."
:confused:

[meerkat]

Geez Eddie, talking about an eye opener, while I haven't read it all it's certainly surprised me and 25% is female/female according to this site. What % is female/male ?

"Finally, and most importantly, female-female abuse is a topic which needs to be researched and spoken about, so that survivors can receive the support, information and validation that they deserve, and little girls who are brave enough to tell, may one day be believed."

Maybe the media could run an article or something about this too.

Sorry I forgot I was gonna keep quite :o:D

[meerkat]

he said: "please stop calling or I will take out a restraining order..."
:confused:

rofl

[kekemo]

Mother of 3 boys & 1 girl........from and abusive backgroud.....so I am extremely aware.....over protective but not overbaring.....you have to teach your children to be aware .... to even be suspicious....it keeps them vigilant...but not to taint their lives it is very hard...

My late husband was so supportive & understanding we discussed these type of matters all the time...to us 99% of males around us are great wonderful supportive sensitive & friendly...........It's that tiny 1% that we have to be aware of....don't those barstards just spoil it for the rest.......

But how do we react to abuse when you see it with out getting your self into a situation you cant controll..........
It happens every day......go to a shopping centre & see mothers yelling or hitting their children........the low social economic enviroment breeds this....even nutures it...its terrible...you know that some of these mothers should just not have kids....how do we deal with it...do we walk up and say something, not likely you would end up flat on you face....but who is going to speak out for the children.........we need a police force that is out there among the population...police on the beet...or at least around society...not in there cars picking up someone for going 5klm over the limit....put them where they are needed....
Protecting our children starts with the mothers...........can't blame all men...sorry........but where do we stop it....I have taught my sons to respect women, defend & potect them from any & all voilence...No matter who....BUT above all the respect & protection of children is a must....
regard Kekemo

[meerkat]

Will someone please restrain me !!!:D:D

Kekemo, thank you for your response, what you have said in such a small space is wonderful

Thank you.

[dazzler]

Hi kekomo

what you say is dead right. dont agree with the policing issue though as imo that is after the fact and would need a cop in every home.

This is my exp in law enforcement. I have used guesstimates based on what I have seen/monitored specific to child/wife abuse in all forms;


The bad man looking for kids to abuse in the community .5%

Father/grandfather/uncle 70%

Trusted family friend 20%

Sibling with mental disorder 9%

Rapist stalking the community .5%

As I say very rough guesstimates but based on reported crimes that I see on the system everyday in my current role.

Sadly the home is THE most dangerous place for a child and sadly a wife. In 20 years of policing I have only seen 1 case where a women was beating up on a bloke and she was more bloke than a bloke anyway.

I have no problems with the Govt slamming us with these ad's and if it makes some of us uncomfortable, and we have nothing to hide, then forget it and move on.

I have a pretty hard view on child molesters and that is that they need to be removed from society so that the ongoing trauma is stopped for good. Most abusers have been abused themselves and so the sad cycle continues. There needs to be a place, an island perhaps, where they can live out thier lives in relative comfort, not talking about punishment, so that it ends.

cheers

dazzler