Installing Kitchens

[RenoGirl82]

Hi All,
I'm new here so my apologies if i'm not doing things by the book.
I noticed in some other topics people have purchased and installed IKEA kitchens.
I would like to know what you used to attach your cabinets to the wall (silly me didnt realise that wasnt included in the package). Or does anyone have any advice what length, etc screws i would need to do this. If it helps at all, i will be attaching to plasterboard.

Also, with the benchtops i am purchasing from a laminate manufacturer so unfortunately no instructions come with them. My cousin mentioned about if my walls arent square and cutting them back.....Could someone give me some advice or confirm whether this is true, i'm now feeling a little bit lost with my project that i thought even i couldnt mess up!

[namtrak]

Photos!

To attach to the plasterboard you looking for the noggins/studs behind the plasterboard. A bit of tapping on the board should get you started.

Trimming a laminate top can take a bit ( a router bit). Depends on how out of square the walls are. Do you have a carpenters square?

More photos are handy.

mainly though don't panic, you'll figure it out.

Cheers

[Border boy]

A stud finder is a very handy & cheap tool. The guys that installed our kitchen used the "tap & drill" method to find studs. Thankfully the cabinets hid most of their exploratory attempts to find a stud. In frustration I left my $30.00 stud finder in clear view for them. They didn't use it. A few test drill holes are still visible if you know where to look.

[renomart]

I use 40mm head hole screws for base cabinets and a bit longer for wall cabinets (going into gyprock wall over studs). My base and wall units have 16mm solid backs.

Do IKEA kitchens have a 3mm thick back?

Headhole means just that. There is a hole in the head of the screw so you can fasten screw caps to cover the screw head.

[RenoGirl82]

Yes, all the cabinets have 3mm backs. They also have pre-drilled holes in the top 2 corners and they supply a little keyhole template which goes in between the back of the cabinet and the screw that fixes into the wall. (hope that makes sense) Because everything is pre-drilled i'm guessing i wont be having much choice whether the screws are going into studs or not, so i need to use wall plugs. I guess i'm still a little worried that 2 screws are gonna be responsible for holding a cabinet full of glasses onto a wall!
I dont have a carpenters square, but i may be able to borrow one from my builder. If it's not square what is my next step with the benchtops?
What exactly do i need photos of?

[Honorary Bloke]

By no means should you attach the cabinets using wall plugs in plasterboard! :eek: Two screws can hold the cabinet, but only into studs.

[Sybarite]

I dont have a carpenters square, but i may be able to borrow one from my builder. If it's not square what is my next step with the benchtops?


The "cutting back" your cousin mentioned is probably the technique of removing material from the "back" edge of the tops to get them to meet the wall evenly - also referred to as "scribing".

Since you seem to be getting tops from a post former any joins/ends they machine should be very square - so further checking for square should not be essential.

What happens next is that you place your tops against the wall and "scribe" a line along the back of the top that matches the wall irregularities; this can be done in a number of ways, one of which is to use a drawing compass - run the sharp end along the wall and the marking end will draw a similar line on the top.
The top then gets cut back (preferably with a plane) to the line.

Technically this will mean that your bench will now fit snugly up to the wall.
In practice this can be a bit tricky, and is a bit hard to completely describe in words only, but by no means should it be beyond your capabilities.

If you are really not feeling certain about this process it may be worth asking your builder (or cousin) for a bit of help on this one - removing too much material from the back of your tops can really ruin your day.

As for hanging wall units - 3mm backs only? Yikes!
Like the others have said, you definitely need to anchor these in something structural.
If you can't find a stud or noggin behind the hole then put the hole somewhere else (and cap the old ones with some of those little plastic plugs)...I personally would not be happy relying on the 3mm...like Renomart says, 16mm solid backs are best preference.
Don't those units at least have a solid top and bottom rail that can be screwed through?

Most importantly, don't panic - just take your time and don't be afraid to get someone who has done it before to help you.
Even if you have to pay them a bit for it, it will still probably be cheaper than having to get a new set of tops, and while they are doing it you can get them to clearly explain all the processes to you for when you do your next install.

Cheers,

[renomart]

I think IKEA use a hanging rail system for the wall cabinets. Check out this guy's site (http://renomart.ikeakitch.hop.clickbank.net/) for installing IKEA cabinets.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=34508&stc=1&d=1163618841

[RenoGirl82]

http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_AU/complete_kitchen_guide/kitchen_know-how/do_it_yourself/installation_1.html

Just did a search and found this. The rail system you're talking about must be an american/overseas product as i looked up the eastern Aus Ikea site and there is no mention of it. I like the way it looks easy on there, but there is no mention of finding studs, etc to make sure your cabinets hold up.
I am almost to the point of contemplating paying someone else to install this for me (the people Ikea recommend charge $85 a cabinet and thats just to put them on the wall, it's another $45 or so for them to put the cabinets together - which i have done) but im not sure where you find kitchen installers, tried the yellow pages under 'kitchen installers' but came back with nothing. I dont particularly want to pay $1300 just to install the kitchen when the kitchen only cost me twice that amount!

[Sybarite]

I haven't dealt with these people before, but if they can't help you they might be able to point you in the right direction.

KITchens
39 Township Road, MARION, SA
(08) 8377 3233
[email protected] ([email protected])

Cheers,

[arms]

hi,sounds silly but i have found that in all the other states that i send flat packed kitchens to customers i recommend "hire a hubby" for the job of installation ,they have never let me or the customer down in regards to a good job and the customer being happy as well as a fair price ,$85 is well and truly up there on the installation cost ,i do know that i wish i could get $85 per cabinet ,who would have to worry hey sybarite and renomart

[renomart]

I could only get $50 max per cabinet. So yes, I would love to get $85. :D

Try these guys Aussemble (http://www.assembly.com.au/Home.aspx)

[RenoGirl82]

Aussemble were the company i'm talking about! I used their estimate online and it came back with a ridiculous amount of $1300 or something. Which is why i decided to attempt it myself.
When i shopped around for a kitchen i contacted a lot of flat pack kitchen places for quotes so i wasnt sure how politically correct it would be to turn around and say no i dont want your kitchen but can you give me the number of your kitchen installer....
I will ring hire a hubby tomorrow, i think i'm willing to part with 500 bucks just to get the damn thing installed before xmas~

[renomart]

Good luck RenoGirl. This is the busiest time of year for kitchen installers. If you find one that doesn't have much work on I would be very worried...:eek:

[Metal Head]

Hi,

I know you can get the odd rotten apple in companies the size of HAH (Hire A Hubby). However, I got the one here in Melbourne who had 5 attempts at stopping an S bend pipe from leaking - after that I got rid of him and finished off the job myself. That wasn't before he had charged me top $$$ for a poor job of installing my cabinets. A month later I had to go back and redo most of the job as the tenant nearly lost his arm from a unit falling on him.

On a personal note I generally use Ramset Wall Mates for attaching items to a wall but maybe not in this case. I would phone Ramset and ask them if it was OK to use them, if not what would they suggest?.

Regards
David

[RenoGirl82]

My Father purchased some of those ramset wall mates that you're talking about. I was wondering what they'd be like, but unsure as well if they would hold something as big as a kitchen cabinet.
I will def keep your bad experience in mind of that HAH, are they help responsible for instances like that, or is there some fine print dismissing them of it all?

[boban]

Forget using the plasterboard. It cannot be done safely.

You must find a stud.

[Bleedin Thumb]

The Wall mates have specific weight loadings - about a tonne from memory?
You may getaway with them for base cabinets but it would be way too risky on a wall unit.
As boban said find a stud it, is will be easier than trying to line up a screw to a wall plug

[toddles]

Ok - so this is going to sound messy but this is the solution I had to use in a similar situation (I'm a 2 kitchen Ikea veteran).
Mark the spots on the wall where in a ideal world the cabinet hanging holes would be drilled based on the metal ikea hanging brackets.
Mark & cut away (with a jigsaw or hand saw) the plasterboard horizontally 30mm above and below the marked spots but NOT extending past the width of the cupboards. Be really careful about not cutting through electrical cable in the wall cavity. You should be left with long horizontal hole 60mm high exposing the wall studs.
Cut a piece of timber to just short of the length of the cabinets and cut rebates in the studs to fit this length so that the timber sits flush with the wall surface.
Firmly glue and screw the timber into the wall studs. You now have a structurally solid fastening point
Use large wood screws with 3/8 washers to pin the cabinet to the timber through the two metal brackets in the ikea cabinet (predrill all the holes for all the cabinets though so you can check they are all at the same level)
If you are really careful when cutting the plaster board you won't have to do any patching as the cabinets will completely cover your work.
Good Luck!

[toddles]

Also, with the benchtops i am purchasing from a laminate manufacturer so unfortunately no instructions come with them. My cousin mentioned about if my walls arent square and cutting them back.....Could someone give me some advice or confirm whether this is true, i'm now feeling a little bit lost with my project that i thought even i couldnt mess up!

Most people tile the wall above the bench tops and this gives you a fair bit of leeway with a not-so-square wall. The benchtop manufacturers I've queried will recommend that they themselves do the measurement for the benchtops so see if you can find this service as they work with whatever is there - it's not an umcommon situation! I like the ikea oak laminate benchtops and have trimmed the join between the bench and pre existing tiles in my lastest effort with Tassie oak quarter round (the first kitchen I did I tiled the wall after installing the benchtop but this time I wanted to keep the original tile work) and that came out looking awesome.

[RenoGirl82]

I dont know whether this is going to matter, but i was just thinking about it and thought it's worth a mention.
My wall cabinets are going to be flush with the ceiling. Is there a possibility that there will be a beam wide enough from the ceiling for the cabinets to be attached to? The pre drilled holes in the cabinet backs are about 65mm from the top of the cabinet.
I will be investing in a stud finder, and if all else fails, or if i dont come up with anything better Toodles, i think i am capable of your idea.

[Metal Head]

My Father purchased some of those ramset wall mates that you're talking about. I was wondering what they'd be like, but unsure as well if they would hold something as big as a kitchen cabinet.
I will def keep your bad experience in mind of that HAH, are they help responsible for instances like that, or is there some fine print dismissing them of it all?

So why didn't you contact Ramset as I suggested and find out what they were capable of - and if they were no good they could have suggested something to get you out of the mess you are in. It appears to me that this job is unfortunately beyond your skill level and you should get someone in who is competent to do it. Otherwise it sounds like your roof could collapse and your insurance will not be worth the paper it is written on.

Sorry Renogirl if I sound a bit harsh but we all must be aware of our limitations when doing any type of DIY work.

In regard to the HAH, I settled the bill at a lower price than quoted, as I threatened to take the guy to VCAT for impersonating a tradesperson.

Regards
Metal Head

[Sybarite]

Flush with the ceiling?

Be careful that you can open your doors if you do this.

The doors on those wall units are most likely the same size as the carcasses, which means there is no allowance for anything above them.

Normally at least a small cornice moulding or bulkhead would be used between the top of the cabinet and the ceiling to allow for any deviation from level of either cabinet or ceiling.

When units are specified for underbench or for under a capping mould a gap of 2 - 3 mm is provided between door and the board so that the doors don't rub and to allow for any variance/ movement that is either present or might occur over time.

I will also suggest that now is the time to get someone to at least have a look at your project to confirm what is and isn't possible before something unfortunate happens that ends up costing you physically as well as financially.

Cheers,

[RenoGirl82]

Metal Head:
I had a look at the range of Ramset products both online and in the hardware store and the heaviest load that they were capable of was 10kg. After this a few other people commented on the importance of finding a stud, and not to even think about attaching a cabinet to plasterboard alone so i thought that maybe a different approach was needed.
The reason why i started this post was to find out advice on how to go about this project. I have not attempted fixing cabinets yet and will not do so unless i feel confident that i can undertake the project safely and I would not risk the quality of my kitchen to save a few bucks.

Sybarite:
After i typed that post i realised about the cornice/bulkhead. Luckily i am not attempting this project on my own and have my cousin who is very cluey when it comes to these sorts of things to assist me (or perhaps me to assist him:D )

[Metal Head]

RenoGirl82 said - After this a few other people commented on the importance of finding a stud

I think you will find there are quite a few around here who fancy their chances as one;) :D.

[namtrak]

Photos!

[RenoGirl82]

Namtrak:
What photos would you like to see? The cabinets, walls....

We repaired some of the gyprock on tues which came off with the tiles and saw that the studs are 600 apart on one side of the kitchen and 450 on the other side, which doesnt help at all, so we are planning on cutting out a small length of gyprock across the wall at the height needed to fix in the cabinets, putting noggins in where we need them, re gyprocking over again and then attaching wall cabinets to noggins. (Similar to toodles idea, but we are not going to cut rebates into the studs as it may weaken them) All we need to work out now is what type of screws we need to use and it's all good.

[namtrak]

Maybe some pics of the walls and the cupboards and fittings. That way there can be no ambiguity about the advice your getting

:)

Cheers

[arms]

illogical ,why plaster over a hole/space/appeture that you have created to alleviate a problem when you are going to cover the fixing with a cabinet,no installer that i have ever known has ever worried about what the client cant see, to get the job done and finished in a tradesman like way ,bang holes in the wall put in what is needed for the job ,get it finished ,move on to the next problem,
i mean dont get drowned by the finer details that people cant see

[toddles]

Photos!
Photos!
illogical ,why plaster over a hole/space/appeture that you have created to alleviate a problem when you are going to cover the fixing with a cabinet,no installer that i have ever known has ever worried about what the client cant see, to get the job done and finished in a tradesman like way ,bang holes in the wall put in what is needed for the job ,get it finished ,move on to the next problem,
i mean dont get drowned by the finer details that people cant see

arms: the fixing point on the ikea cabinet (two per cabinet) are in the very top corners of the carcass. If the wall behind isn't flush then when you tighten the screws the cabinet will tilt back into the hole, and it's important to get hanging cabinets tightly fastenned.

Renogirl: Great solution! When we did mine we had a length of 15x50mm jarrah and we figured to use what we had as at 15mm we weren't going far into the stud (about 5mm with the jarrah sitting flush to the wall). Your solution is much better, completely structurally sound and much more professional.

One more suggestion (from my dad this time): when you nail the noggins in - a nail nailed from the top of the noggin angled sideways into the stud provides the strongest result against downward force (you predrill the angled hole in the noggin to make it easier to attach without a nailgun).

Good on you for persisting with doing the job yourself and coming to your own superior solution using the input of others: for me that's what this site is all about (& make sure you add some WIP (work in progress) pictures of the job to this thread to show off your handy work).

[toddles]

RenoGirl82 said - After this a few other people commented on the importance of finding a stud

I think you will find there are quite a few around here who fancy their chances as one;) :D.


Photos!

Is this what you meant? It's my favourite shot of me from my modelling days.:D

[RenoGirl82]

WIP photos are on the way, i'm having about as much fun with photobucket as i am with my bloody kitchen!
These pics are the first part of the project which was to knock the walls out to open the place up. The middle pic is taken from reverse angle. I got a builder in to take the woodwork out as i didnt want to do anything structural but i ripped out the gyprock and saved myself $900
Kitchen pics will follow once i finish the job!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/shaylasmum/765_6554resize.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/shaylasmum/778_7835resize.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/shaylasmum/778_7848resize.jpg

[namtrak]

The photos look good.

The more the merrier. Have you removed the tiles from the kitchen wall yet? or are they staying?

[Pulse]

What's wrong with double arches? The heritage people will be onto you....

Looks great! good job

Cheers
Pulse

[RenoGirl82]

This is pretty much what my kitchen looks like at the moment. After the walls were done, i ripped the lino off (wish i found this forum for some advice back then:mad: ) and then the wall tiles, and the floor tiles in my laundry. I'm getting the laundry, kitchen, dining, lounge, toilet and entry all tiled after the kitchen is installed. Then i think i'll have a year off before i tackle the bathroom, then the patio, then the exposed brick in the bedrooms, then the.....:D

[sammy_h]

What's wrong with double arches? The heritage people will be onto you....

Gawd, those double arches were bloody 'orrible.

Good on you for removing them :)

[sammy_h]

Oh, and keep going Renogirl. You'll get there, and be proud of the result!

[RenoGirl82]

Funny you should mention those double arches, when i first looked at buying the place i thought they were great, making the dining room seperate.:rolleyes: Guess things 'grow' on you once you have to live with them everyday.

[namtrak]

Great, did you find your studs yet? I reckon there will be one on that join in the gyprock, and then somewhere between 450 and 600 either side of that. You could drill holes in the gyprock below the height of your new benches and then cover them up with the cupboards. Dont drill above power points though.

Cheers

[davo_scuba]

great job

it all looks so familiar we did the same as you last year but got a bit of a shock when we removed some giprock, we found a dead possium that had been there a for quite a few years (20 yrs ish).
keep going it's all worth it in the end, it's great the see your progress.
davo :)

[Pulse]

Davo, sure he's not just sleeping?

[davo_scuba]

pulse

we poked him with a big stick just to make sure (and dislodge him from his purch) the one in the loft was picked clean just a complete skeleton.

davo

[JDub]

Are we sharing 'arch' pics? Can I play? ;) :p
Done a year or two ago, I dont miss plaster dust......

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=32489

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=32490

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=32491


Looking great BTW Reno girl :) :) :) Down with the 70's arch!!!

Cheers
Joel

[pharmaboy2]

Jdub - nice to see the space it created - was the trend of making lots of small rooms in a house real estate agents continuing a myth - or did people really want seperate loung, living, dining, and a kitchen?

Here's hoping that all those brand new federation style places built in the 90's and beyo0nd get a serious renovation sometime in the future as well - same fate as yellow benchtops and fake wood wrap kitchen cupboards got....

[RenoGirl82]

Wow Jdub, looks great, really makes to whole place look different!

I found myself a cabinet maker who works for a kitchen company and he is going to help me out and even supply some bulkheads and filler pieces. He's coming on Saturday to start installing to wall cabinets :D
and the best part is he said he doesnt even need to be paid, he would just like to give me a hand with it

[Metal Head]

Wow Jdub, looks great, really makes to whole place look different!

I found myself a cabinet maker who works for a kitchen company and he is going to help me out and even supply some bulkheads and filler pieces. He's coming on Saturday to start installing to wall cabinets :D and the best part is he said he doesnt even need to be paid, he would just like to give me a hand with it

His name wouldn't be Toddles would it?;) :D.

[RenoGirl82]

Oh, you mean one of you guys would have helped me?
Well, here are some more WIP.... just waiting for the benchtops, doors, handles and a clean up

[sammy_h]

and the best part is he said he doesnt even need to be paid, he would just like to give me a hand with it

Damn, thats a good deal!

I'm really glad that sentence ended with "with it", and not "job" :)

[sammy_h]

Funny you should mention those double arches, when i first looked at buying the place i thought they were great, making the dining room seperate.:rolleyes: Guess things 'grow' on you once you have to live with them everyday.

What is really interesting is how some houses probably alternate between one configuration and another.

Case in point: my wife and I were thinking that a sliding door would be better for the entrance to the bathroom. Imagine my surprise when I removed a part of the gyprock wall (for other purposes), only to discover an internal slider hiding in there!

So, the house started its life with a sliding door to the bathroom (recently confirmed on plans), then the previous owners replaced with a hinged door, and now we're thinking of putting it back.

Sam

[namtrak]

The kitchen is gonna look great, coming along nicely. Is that you in the pic? If so I am super impressed!!!! How did you reach the top cupboards

:D :D

[toddles]

Well, here are some more WIP.... just waiting for the benchtops, doors, handles and a clean up

Looks brilliant! Well done.

How where they hung in the end?

[RenoGirl82]

We cut out 100mm of gyprock, inserted noggins, regyprocked, flushed and then attached the cabinets. The base cabinets we didnt bother with noggins as they are on legs anyway, but used plasterboard anchors (plastic spiral things)as well as screws.
Guess the project wouldnt be complete without the sparky installing the wrong sized power points for the oven and cooktop so waiting for him to come back and fix it


The kitchen is gonna look great, coming along nicely. Is that you in the pic? If so I am super impressed!!!! How did you reach the top cupboards
:p

[Honorary Bloke]

Absolutely bang up job! Please post more pix as work continues. :)