Tips for dIY downlights

[Mr Crow Bar]

any tips sparkies and diyers on putting in your own downlights? well i know some of you might be gasping at the concept of dIY electrical work and all the do gooders out there will be turning in their graves. but i am doing them myself regardless and if you can tune in and offer any good advice, safety, tecghnical of otherwise please write in.

i have bought a ten pack from bunnings with transformers. second floor apartment building with lowbearing roof over plasterboard. (no room to fit under the roof to fit from the top.) i hear it is real easy from many diy friends but remain to be convinced i can really do this one.

sincerely,:eek::rolleyes:
reformed do-gooder

[pharmaboy2]

gee, that sounds easy - not!

Obviously transformers need to be able to go through hols, transoformers need to be on top of ceiling joist as well, and away from insulation. Also given that sort of installation, I'd want transformers that are electronic and run very cool.

Now I'm not suitably qualified, but if you only have access from underneath, I'd go for GU-10 fittings, which are halogen but 240volt, and without transformer, because installing to standards is nigh on impossible without ceiling access. keep in mind halogens get very hot at the back of the light - the gu-10 fittings as well, and cannot have insulation over them.

Its a big 'careful' for fire risk.

[Mr Crow Bar]

thanks for the reply, i am aware of the fire risks. thanks for the tips i will look into them. any other tips on fitting anyone? eg how to thread the cable without roof access?????

[Chesand]

I would suggest that with the tone of your request you will be very lucky to get too much advice let alone from sparkies

[Vernonv]

I'm no sparkie and I'm not sure if this is the "right" way to do it, but ...

1. Can you pull off the roof sheeting/tiles? If so put the transformers in the eaves. There shouldn't be any insulation in there.

2. When I ran network cable in our house I used an old broken tape measure (just the flexible steel bit) to run the cables. i.e. tape the cable to one end of the tape measure and feed the other end to where you want it. I've also seen the same thing done with a strip of yellow tongue.

Hope that helps.

[spartan]

I'm finding it difficult to imagine how this would work if you have no ceiling access....Unless you can pop roof tiles or roof sheets??

I'm assuming that you have a light in the ceiling already and that this is the points from where you will draw your power from...

Have you thought about how you will get power to all 10 of your lights?? Thats a bit of cable and drilling 70mm holes and then using extension rods sounds problematic.

You need a minimum of 150mm clearance from your lights to your insulation.....

You might want to consider 240v and 11w compact fluro halogen replacements...they operate significantly cooler than 50w dios....

Quoting jobs like this is difficult even if you are on site....if you have no ceiling access...I'd probably say no can do...unless you want to calling the plaster after the electrical work is done....

As an alternative you can buy (from bunnings and other places) DIY kits that attach to standard bayonet fittings, that offer a halogen option without being down lights...

Having said that I've seen people install false ceilings to overcome this kind of obstacle....but that was mainly for hiding aircon cabling in apartments.....

Whatever you decide to do stay safe......

[OBBob]

Don't know what you'd do if there are obsticles ... but an old strip of the plastic yellow tongue from chipboard flooring is great for pulling wires through walls. Has no conductivity and just the right amount of fleximibility. Tape teh cable to it to pull it through, then tie a knot inb the cable once through ... it's very annoying when you get it through finally and then it slips back in the hole!!

[ausdesign]

From an energy raters point of view I have an aversion to recessed ceiling downlights. [more so 240v]
And seeing it's a friday, I'd say if you're thinking of installing them in a 'cathedral ceiling' type situation then insulation wise you're committing a reprehesible sin & should go directly to Bunnings for an immediate refund !! - don't stop at Go.

As an aside - currently new homes are required to achieve a level of energy compliance under BCA 2006.
For example in Vic plans to council require a stamped set of plans from the energy rater plus a compliance form signed by the owner or builder stating that nothing has been altered [from the rating ]
I can envisage in the future that homes 'sold on' will require a form, stat. dec. or whatever that the home has not been altered or if it has then it will conform [new certificate]

[jimc]

Be aware that a 50 watt low voltage globe uses the same amount of grunt as a 50 watt 240V globe.
Add to that the transformer being only 80% efficient means you will use more power than the 240V lamps and less of a fire risk.

The added plus of the 240V fittings is compact florescent globes are made as replacements in 5 9 and 11watt fittings.

Only my two bobs worth.

[spartan]

jimc....

correct....in the case of downlights....low voltage 50W actually use about 61 watts when you take into account the transformer....

that's why I'm mainly doing 240v, 11 Watt compact fluro replacements at moment. You save 50w per light, and the heat is significantly less.

There two downsides...cost of the globe about$19-$25, and the fact it takes about a minute to get to full brightness.....small sacrifices for the environment...

[doug1]

Cost of cfl lamps is about $4 or $5 in dydney depending where you go (Go Lo)

power factor about .5

Doug

[Mr Crow Bar]

thanks all for your imput. geez this place is great... lots of replies here. already have bought the downlights as mentioned gu1 240v 50w jobbies without transformers ($100 for a ten pack with globes inc) and some low voltage ones for the kitchen in a stanless steel finish. so unless i get refunds these are what i will use. but appreciate the feedback for it is all food for thought..


i need some of the nitty gritty.. grassroots stuff guyss.. wiring??? how to wire these ***ers safely and secondly get it through my narrow roof space. Has any one attempted this? Some people have suggested threading it through with plastic packing wrap or something. what type of wiring should i use?

and last token question. when i have successfully installed the best down lights in town, what is the best way to fill the hole in the ceiling from the original fitting???

Mr Crow

[spartan]

Cost of cfl lamps is about $4 or $5 in dydney depending where you go (Go Lo)

power factor about .5

Doug

If you can find cfl for gu10 fittings for this price snap them up, with a trade discount of 20% the best I can get is $19.

I suspect though you are referring to the standard cfl incan replacement which you should be able to get get for about $5. Big difference between these and megaman gu10 cfl.

[thatirwinfella]

let me guess this right... you've pretty much admitted you have no domestic wiring experience, aren't sure of you're capable of completing the job, don't care about the legalities of what you are doing, and you don't seem to have thought the situation through before you started[bulky items and narrow roof spaces don't mix in my mind].

and now you're asking on an internet forum for DIYers to tell you what they think MIGHT be the proper way of installing them.

i'll put it straight out there... you're a nut.

the hole in the plaster ceiling... this might be a bit out there, but i've always thought plaster holes are best filled in with plaster. conveniently enough for you, the reno brothers in todays herald sun was filling in a plaster hole. well, it might be convenient if you get the herald sun.

the easy way would be to just replace the fittings with the style everyone else is suggesting. It saves installing new cables and you won't have to fill in any holes. for the cost of the cable and the downlights [and the comparitive effort] you could probably buy a few pretty decent fittings instead.

downlights have had their fun anyway, go see whats coming into fashion and get it before all your mates do.

by far though, the easiest way would be getting an electrician to do it.

[Mr Crow Bar]

ha, you are a very funny man. well thanks for stating the bleeding obvious 'win fella' (the name says it all) i covered that in my first posting so we wouldn't have to go through it all again... did you read it?

if you are not going to be any help find another thread to bother. or add something constructive.

p.s.
1.) why we are here? so we dont have to hire people to do things for us.

2.) as i said i have already bought the fittings.

3.) putting plaster in a plaster hole.. why didnt i think of that..."the best way?" it states in the question.

god damn it. anyone in here know how to wire them properly or not? fill a gravitationally challenged hole? and pass wire from one hole to the other?

or

add some sarcastic remarks if it's easier.


to everyone else that put in there two bobs worth. thanks.


crow mag man:confused::mad:

[felixe]

"Crow mag man", let me enter the species into Wikpedia, Should I file you under..... soon to be extinct, or just as an idiot:confused: :eek:

Thatirwinfella, yes he states the bleedin obvious, but it is because he has a misplaced concern for your welfare. Me, I say go hard my man, I love fireworks - I should see you go up in sparks anytime soon - even from Brisbane!!
BTW no-one who actually knows is going to "help you" because you seem on a path to self destruction and I doubt anyone else will want to help you there.

And just to end on a positive note I will add something constructive.
Yes we are here to learn and to do things ourselves and not have to pay someone else, but the line is drawn at irresponsible and dangerous behaviour.
You are a fool, you don't even know basic wiring and you are willing to undertake domestic electrical work?
Get a licensed electrician to do it, don't be a tight ####!

[felixe]

BTW I sent a reddie to you for being so irresponsible!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Purse]

One word comes to mind:

Illegal


Also might want to think about House insurance repercussions, at very least, have the sparky do the connections after you have run all the wiring and installed the lighting. At least then your covered.

[pharmaboy2]

Mr crow bar, I'm about to try and convince you that in this case a sparky is a better call, but without being judgmental nor abusive.

Firstly I have installed the odd one or 2 of these, and even fixed the odd one that wasnt done properly by the licensed tradesman concerned (15yrs ago when they werent that common). secondly the information you have provided is incomplete and at odds - first post descreibes transformers in 10 pack, then later gu-10's (240v) - so its difficult for the reader to ascertain exactly what you have, and what you want to do. For instance is there already some downlights in place and add one or t, or one bayonet and add 9 to the circuit?

By adding so many lights you can overload the circuit, particularly if the wire is old and not good insulation (black rubber for example) - and as has been said because you are underneath dealing with enough insulation space is a big problem.

getting wires across in a ceiling is usually done with 2 people with single core wire attached to yellow tongue then tie actual cable to wire and pull through. this is the biggest pain in the #### you have ever seen - it could easily take you or me a day or 2, more swearing than you can imagine and likely a fair bit of dmage to gyprock before the cables are all threaded as appropriate. Someone experienced, might easily do it in under half hour.

In this instance, I dont think you are paying the sparky for their ability to successfully connect 3 wires into a fitting without breaking them, you'd be paying for the experience that is required so that tricks and techniques they have discovered over the years, for getting cable from one point to another is applied to save you masses of time and aggravation. Just getting a cable down a wall is a PITA - through a ceiling space with small holes is another step up in terms of difficulty and patience required.

You would have to be inordinately stupid to actually give yourself a shock, or to stuff up such a difficult concept of active, neutral, earth (??), but it would be real easy for some insulation to fall back down over the fitting, which if you are really unlucky, will cause some fire, but more likely will have you changing a $6-00 globe every 2 months.

Given its bunnings, if it were me, I'd take em back, and look for a suitable flash fitting that simply installs onto the ceiling - you could of course go and buy a place with a manhole - but i think thats going a little too far for downlights!! ;)

trying to be helpful......

[Bleedin Thumb]

Down Felixe Down,:D

See what youv'e gone and done now Crow Boy, youv'e gone and upset Felixe with your silly questions.:mad:


I have the same problems at my house, flat roof no ceiling space and I changed the lights to downlights (didn't know about the energy thing but I like dimmers which wont work with CF's):(




Any how this is how I went about threading the wire etc



Firstly I got a phone book.


Then I rang an electrician and got them to do the work.:p

[spartan]

Also trying to be helpful......


Look I think that you find through searches on the forum that a number of people would be more helpful if there was a clearer indication that you had more of a concept of what was happening.

How do I wire this up and that is hard to describe in this medium - even though wiring a light is straight forward, there can be many situtation varriances that could get you into to striffe.

As pulse has suggested we are seeing more and more non professional rough ins - which is generally fine - this is what takes all of the time, getting that cable from one place to another....

If you were near me I'd come and at least have a look for free....:)

[Bleedin Thumb]

Sorry about the sarcasm CB. What you are attempting is against the law and you can't expect people to give you illegal advise in a public forum.

You should have realised that after you weren't getting any replies.

You state you have mates that are DIY so go ask them. That is the appropriate forum ie private conversation-not public discussion.

Better still get a sparky over tell him (or her) you have a small budget and that you want to do the rough ins. Ask them how to best do it but get them to do the final connection.
That way your legal and safe and your've saved yourself some money.
One tip.. use a stud finder to map your rafters first.

[Mr Crow Bar]

well thank you all for the feedback; some bureaucratic and others plain insulting.

i dont have much wiring experience is in i havn't put in down lights before and im not an idiot either. positive, negative, earth. lets all hold hands and say it together as we do the merry-go-round. perhaps i should have been hypothetical and sought a hypothtical response... my hat is off to you bleeding thumb. point taken and put eloquently for the first time rather than being badgering. thanks pharma, purse and spartan... felix, you can 'feel-licks' my tight ####:mad:. as for not getting many responses as has been mentioned we're into page two of bantering. that cant be that bad.

crow bar:cool:

[cross]

i dont have much wiring experience is in i havn't put in down lights before and im not an idiot either.

You may not be an idiot. But you clearly dont have the knowledge to do the complete job. Being an electrician myself, and has the others on the board would know, there are alot of little steps that may not seem important, and alot of factors to take into consideration when performing electrical jobs. Electricians do all this automatically, its what we are trained to do. Even if we were to describe how to do the job, there would still be things that you may not be able to do to satisfy the standards required and its plain illegal.


positive, negative, earth.

hmmm, dc. :rolleyes:

Take the advice of those who have suggested that you call an electrician. Or if you prefer it nice and illegal, get one of your diy mates to come round and help you.

As for patching the hole. Buy yourself some polyfilla and a filling blade. Depending on the size, you may need a small peice of gyprock to cover the majority of the hole to begin with. Although if its just a small hole then the best method is to:

1. Clean the surface and remove any loose peices around the edges.
2. Use the filling blade to press the filler firmly into the hole, and scrap over to remove any excess.
3. Allow to dry, (a few hours, or a day if you have the time).
4. Sand back using a fine grade sandpaper.
5. Apply a second coat if needed.
6. Sand back again.
7. Undercoat.
8. Paint.

Hope that helps.

[TEEJAY]

I am getting a fair bit of electrical work done, on a budget.

I have had the electrical guy look at the job and the small amount of wire pulling I have already done whilst it is accessible - then burried under concrete

He will, when i am finished, connect the cable ends - he is reasonable and it is the cheapest way i can do it and it is safe and (has anyone mentioned) legal.

He's fine to inspect the wires and just connect the downlights and transformer- I have 8 lights at $30 each and transformer at $155 (400Va) but they are all weatherproof over a pool.

[b1ueshift]

Trouble is, because DIY wiring is illegal in this country, if you ask this kind of question, you will get more abuse that advise.

It's too hard to explain how to wire lights without a diagram. If you really want to learn, you should get an electrical text book. For downlights you are going to want to group several together on one switch. It's too hard to explain the wiring terminations for that without a diagram.

It's your house & your safety - if other people want to get angry about diy wiring, it's their problem. If you want to do it yourself, you should learn how to do it right.

[Rookie]

Chill it out Crowbar.

Everyone comes here for two main reasons. To share knowledge, such as those responding to you, or to seek advice, such as you have done. Sometimes the advice might not be what we want to hear, but never the less that's the advice. What you are being told seems to be pretty much on the mark, including that from those getting frustrated with your attitude. Apart from the legalities, if it is going to need diagrams and such, it is too complex a job and you should get a sparky. If you've never threaded cable through a normal ceiling space, yet you are going to do all the other tasks associated with this enclosed space, it is too complex a job and you should get a sparky.

Assume most everyone here knows pretty much what they are talking about (otherwise they wouldn't offer an opinion), and take what you were really asking for. The best advice we have.

[Mr Crow Bar]

well thank you all for all the feedback and i have to leave this here. i have learnt a great deal without even lifting a finger or even electrocuting myself. my verdict well this time will be to do all the cut ins and inserts and let a sparky do the connections while i watch on scrutinising his every move, then next time i will do it and bring in a photo for show and tell.

just on a final note.. any one know how to do DIY grenade launchers.:D

crow man:)

[TEEJAY]

just on a final note.. any one know how to do DIY grenade launchers.:D

crow man:)

Highly recommend you experiment with this one - I mean hey what can go wrong? :p I think it's legal :rolleyes: :D

[wattlewemake]

Crow bar... mate....pal... I suggest that u take VERY good notes if you are going to do this by yourself in the future. I am a sparky by trade and would not give u any tips as I dont want to incriminate myself or b part of any illegal wiring.
A couple of q's tho. Is your house a queenslander? Is it older than say 30 yrs? Did you have the house built? If you answer yes to the first couple and no to the 3rd how can you be sure that the house wiring is in a good condition and able to take the lighting load?
You may ask why I ask these q's... firstly most houses built 30yrs + ago were not wired to take the amount of load that we use now( think how many air conditioners were around back then) The amount of appliances in a house has near doubled. You see a lot of old queenslanders go up in smoke(lovely seasoned timber) for that reason and the fact that most of the cabling is well past its useby date. The cabling problems are usually pretty easy to pick up with the right sort of tests and inspections. But that comes at a cost. But how much is your house worth? Is up to you that question...
As to your bunnies lights... good luck. make sure u keep your receipts as u will be visiting them alot for the warranty. As with most things.. you buy crap...

Best of luck with your lights.

[thatirwinfella]

just on a final note.. any one know how to do DIY grenade launchers.:D

crow man:)

pvc pipe, piezo ignition [pilot lighters/stove lighters] and lots of aerosol cans.

try searching on youtube.com for "beer cannon"

[plucka]

Just on a side note what is this talk of danger of ceiling insulation catching fire as people mention all the time with DIY downlights/transformers? I thought all insulation was non-flamable? I've seen ceiling insulation put on a BBQ and it just will not catch fire.

[thatirwinfella]

transformers give out stacks of heat. it's just something they do.

now, the insulation on these transformers will only be rated to a certain temperature.

when you have ceiling insulation surrounding the transformers they trap the heat. it's just something they do as well.

all the heat builds up and the transformer doesn't like this. the insulation can melt, and cause a short circuit, and if you're really unlucky it'll be a dead short before the coil.

while this should be stopped in it's tracks fairly quickly by circuit breakers, there is still the risk of any arcing or sparks [or just the immense amount of heat] starting a fire by igniting the timber, plaster, rat carcasses, etc.

while it may not burn immeadiately on a bbq, if the heat is there long enough there is a fair chance it will burn.

[plucka]

So it's more the transfromer giving off the heat or the bulb itself? I know my transformers shutoff at a given temperature.

[OBBob]

They both give off a heap of heat. There are a few previous threads on sheilding the heat from insulation ... you may want to look at them. Your transformers should be up on the jouists way from the insualtion anyway.

[lagerland]

This might be a bit of a dead issue - but I agree, if you have to ask so many questions, you don't know what you are doing.

Shock horror gasp! I am not a sparky but I have on occasion moved power points and changed light fittings. I have had these crappy 240v halogen spots, and it would appear that they had not been installed properly (by previous house owner) and we had to replace a $10 bulb every 3 months until I grew jack of it and replaced it with a twin flouro batten.

Then again I have wired a 3-phase lathe with a 1-phase coolant pump and contactors and the control board looked neater than the original wired up by Klockner-Moeller. Of course if I do this DIY this is not subject to the same "fixed installation" laws which govern the installation of light fittings. I could add a long list of other exploits here but I will not bore you.

However, as an engineer, I am not stupid. I have run a few cables for "professional" electricians to fit off. When I drag a 30mm diameter cable through a crawlspace less than 250mm high and attach it to my floor bearers and dig trenches in compacted clay I expect to save at least three figures on my electrical work.

Amazingly, these electricians generally scratch their heads when I go to Middy's and buy 6mm cable when I "could get away with" 4mm cable etc etc. If I want an upgrade in the future am I robbing them of future work?

I recently had my workshop upgraded to 3-phase, and I saved a great deal of money by buying my own fittings and running my own cable. I had a mate (a very good qualified electrician) fit it off and connect it to the grid.

I am aware that bodies such as the ETU are pushing the Chief Electrical Inspector to stop non-electricians from buying things like cable and light fittings.

Surely concern for public safety is a realm for the government rather than a trade union that seeks to protect the financial interests of its members?

Of course, if the public are not able to buy their own cable etc. then they are at the mercy of their electrician adding horrific markups to items which are not otherwise available.

I believe monopolisation and collusion are topics which are dimly viewed by the ACCC.

However, the current DIY "trend" will leave a few victims, and chain stores like Bunnings-house-of-retards prey upon them. I notice that Bunnings does not call their employees "qualified experts" anymore. What serious qualified electrician works for Bunnings at $500 a week?

I recommend running your own cables and digging your own trenches whenever you can. However, if you are in any doubt about what you are doing, call in a professional, especially if you can't say, "It was there when I moved In"!!:;

[peter_sm]

Like a lot of things, there are ways to make it easier on the pocket and still keep it legal.

To wire my garage, I got an electrician friend to quote all of the equipment needed and I got two other materials quotes. His materials quote was the cheapest. I felt good.

He showed me where to lay all of the cable and the requirements for fixing and how many and where they had to be.

I then spent a couple of full days labour running the cables, fixing the light battons and fitting the GPO mounts.

He was then able to complete the circuits and do all of the attaching and testing of circuits in less than half a day. He checked all my work, and testing and checking was over an hour.

There we go job done with only 4 hours labour instead of maybe 16, and all done legally. Common sense is the key Yeah?

[Pulse]

At the risk of starting another spiralling electrical thread, the problem with doing the grunt work is getting an agreeable sparky. I had a guy who I found out said to someone "if he's to cheap for me to do the whole lot.. stuff him." I can't understand why they wouldn't like some help especially when we offer to dig holes and crawl around in cramped dirty spaces.

Cheers
Pulse

[cross]

At the risk of starting another spiralling electrical thread, the problem with doing the grunt work is getting an agreeable sparky. I had a guy who I found out said to someone "if he's to cheap for me to do the whole lot.. stuff him." I can't understand why they wouldn't like some help especially when we offer to dig holes and crawl around in cramped dirty spaces.

My boss and I (both sparkies) are usually very happy when customers do the "hard" work like running cable and digging holes for us. I think if people are interested in doing it that way they should talk to the sparky they intend to use, before starting the project so the sparky can tell you exactly what you can and cant do, and more importantly, how to do it correctly. From there they should have no problem when you call to get them to finish and test the job for you.

There are only problems when people go ahead and do some of it themselves and then the sparky has to come along a deal with all the mess from work done incorrectly.

[Rossluck]

I did the grunt work for a sparkie not long ago and I now have doubts. We had a quote for $2200 for the job, and we ended up paying $1700 for materials and for the work the sparkie had to do. In retrospect I did a lot of difficult work for the $500 I "saved". By the time the job was done I had to basically learn how to do it myself.

[NCArcher]

Just a further thought on doing the 'grunt' work.
I am a sparkie, as a holder of an unrestricted wiring license i am required to submit ALL electrical work that i do for inspection by the electrical authorities. (esp. in Vic.) While i am happy to have the customer dig a trench or run some wiring i am responsible for that work. If that work is not 100% to the letter of the wiring regulations it can be failed and i can be fined tens of thousands of dollars. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. electricians can even get jail terms for blantant disregard of regulations.
While i am happy for someone else to do the grunt work, i check it very carefully. some are not willing to take the risk. Talk to your electrician before you start.

[cross]

Just a further thought on doing the 'grunt' work.
I am a sparkie, as a holder of an unrestricted wiring license i am required to submit ALL electrical work that i do for inspection by the electrical authorities. (esp. in Vic.) While i am happy to have the customer dig a trench or run some wiring i am responsible for that work. If that work is not 100% to the letter of the wiring regulations it can be failed and i can be fined tens of thousands of dollars. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. electricians can even get jail terms for blantant disregard of regulations.
While i am happy for someone else to do the grunt work, i check it very carefully. some are not willing to take the risk. Talk to your electrician before you start.

Agreed. While i mentioned that we dont mind having someone else do the "grunt" stuff, we generally limit that to running drawwires(not that actual conductor that will be used), digging trenches, putting in timbers for bracing or to fix to etc... Rarely is it anything that relates directly to the electrical part of the work.

[pawnhead]

It's probably too late now, but I've noticed that nobody has told him to turn the power off at the meter box before he tries anything himself.

From reading his posts he's probably hanging from a ceiling somewhere now, sporting an extreme afro hairdo. :hahaha:

[OBBob]

Maybe just a little late! :)