Coloured Shellac

[mingus]

It has been mentioned in this (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=11805&highlight=coloured+shellac) thread (also in Neil's book) that shellac can be coloured using universal tints. I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with this?

My questions are:

How much tint do you need? I'm after dark burgandy or navy blue as a solid colour for the back of a guitar. What proprtion tint:shellac should i be looking at?

What colours does the tint come in?...i can prob just go to bunnies to answer that though.

Are there any differences in application?

What is the best grain filler to use? Timber is vic. ash, and i'm after a gloss finish.

Thanks in advance.

[durwood]

I don't think you are going to get the effect you want by tinting the shellac.Tinting means giving it a colour so its like coloured cellophane. you can only add a small amount of colour to do this. Too much colour and you affect the shellac. As the tinted material has some transparency it can be difficult to get an even finish (if you overlap you risk getting a dark spot.)

If you need a solid colour ( i assume you don't want to see the grain of the timber by saying solid colour as normally it would be transparent to see the actual grain) make the timber that colour before you place shellac or any other clear on the wood. Usually the timber is stained to made the colour you want first.

You can add colour to the wood filller also ( get a neutral filler and colour it) but none of that is necessary if you want a solid colour. You would just prime and fill then add the colour to the smooth undercoat.

If you want the grain to be a part of the colour you are achieving Wattyl make wood fillers and would probably be the easiest to obtain in hardware stores but other major manufacturers also have such products. Never put in large amounts of universal tints as they contain no ingredients to allow them to dry. Usually they are very strong so you only have to add a small amount (about 5%) more than that may mess up your finish. Do a test of your mixture before you attack the real job.

I notice you have said its a guitar, nitro cellulose lacquer seems to be the standard finish, you can also tint it but there are solid colours available in this material and if you want a solid colour you would just use Dark blue or burgandy.

Finally both those colours have very poor coverage (they don't block out whats underneath well) even with them as a straight colour its advisable to paint the surface black first. One coat of black will block out the timber then one or two coats of the colour will give you your result. Without the black it could take 10 coats to get the same effect. Thats for whatever finish you put on.

[ubeaut]

Mingus - If you're going to block out the grain then it doesn't matter what filler you use.

To use coloured shellac I would do a base coat of white and sand it really smooth, then apply the coloured shellac over the top. You will need to find your colour first use base colours red + lamp black (not too much black). You can mix up to 30% universal tint with fresh shellac.

I find using the white base gives the finish a better translucence and more depth, but black could also be good as could yellow. It all depends on the final effect you hope to achieve.

Best advice I can offer is to get some scrap and play around with some colours to see what you get. Just make sure to write down what colours you use and in what proportions.

I find the ordinary orange shellac to work the best, like it better than the white shellac. But that;s just me.

Cheers - Neil :)

[mingus]

Thanks for the info.

NC laquer is the standard for guitars, but i don't have access to spray gear so it isn't really an option for me.

Would it be feasable to achieve the colour using standard paints, then use white shellac over the top to get the gloss level? Also, i'm only after solid colour on the back. The top is fijian mahaog. (This has a more common name, but i can't remember it) which i want to clear coat, so i need the shellac there too.

[ubeaut]

Would it be feasable to achieve the colour using standard paints, then use white shellac over the top to get the gloss level?

Not something I'd be doing.

[mingus]

Thanks for that, i'll have an experiment and see what happens.

[Barry_White]

Not that I am an expert on finishing but as a Patternmaker we used to colour patterns with cement oxides in shellac that give really solid colours.

We used to use Red, Yellow and Black.

[mingus]

thanks barry, while i'm doing test runs, i might just give that a try.

[fanlee]

It has been mentioned in this (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=11805&highlight=coloured+shellac) thread (also in Neil's book) that shellac can be coloured using universal tints. I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with this?


Hi Mingus.

See this post in musical instruments : http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=40883

I am a newbie but achieved this result allbeit marred by a spill which I couldn't patch invisibly.

The timber is myrtle and I used 10% Feast Watson proof tint - Red- in a mixture of 50/50 U Beaut hard shellac and ethanol. I put on lots of thin layers with a pad until I got the depth of colour I was happy with, then sprayed it with nitro cellulose & rubbed it to gloss basically using Durwood's lacquer pulling instructions, then Meguair's No followed by No 9 followed by No7.

It is not perfect but I am very pleased. Apart from the spill, I was conservative in the rub out avoiding rub throughs at all costs.

However the colour is simply SUPERB!!:D

Also I am about to post another rub out with Durwood's lacquer pulling techniques as the basis & I took this one to the limit. There is not even a suggestion of a pit on the top.

It's not coloured shellac though. It's U Beaut water soluble stain on the timber.

Good luck and enjoy the ride!!

RobSm

[mingus]

To use coloured shellac I would do a base coat of white and sand it really smooth, then apply the coloured shellac over the top. You will need to find your colour first use base colours red + lamp black (not too much black). You can mix up to 30% universal tint with fresh shellac.


Right, sorry to revive a very old thread, but i've finally got up to the stage of finishing my guitar and have some more questions.

1) When you say "do a base coat of white" do you mean to use white oil based paint first, or whit tint in shellac?

2) I went to a paint shop today and asked the guy there about using universal tints for this purpose, and he was suspicious about using a water based tint in the metho based shellac. Why doesn't the water cause problems with curing etc?

3) I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the peop[le there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

[Sturdee]

I went to a paint shop today and asked the guy there about using universal tints for this purpose, and he was suspicious about using a water based tint in the metho based shellac. Why doesn't the water cause problems with curing etc?


Yet that same paint shop guy will happily use the same tints to colour oil based paints. So why would he be suspicious. :? In any case if Neil says it is okay to do it you can safely go ahead for he wrote the bible on the subject.




I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the people there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

I use dry pigments to mix metho based colour stains prior to french polishing. The trick is to make it darker than you wish as the metho in the french polish will lighten the stain. If the colour, after a few layers of polish, is too light you can apply another coat of stain before continuing with your polishing.

Sometimes you may have to do this a number of times with different colours of stain before you get it right. So do it first on a piece of scrap and record the steps you take, so you can repeat it on your masterpiece.


Peter.

[Chris Parks]

I think I have a video somewhere on something like this. Give me a day to find it.

[Sofaman]

I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the peop[le there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

I use dry pigments in shellac at very high concentrations for graining or colour touch ups as per TAFE training, but there can be some problems:

It can get a bit lumpy. Colour pigments are gritty so there's a danger your finish is uneven.

If you're applying shellac over your desired colour you may notice a difference in colour in the end result

But you can always experiment, right?!!

[Chris Parks]

Mingus, check your email.

[mingus]

Yet that same paint shop guy will happily use the same tints to colour oil based paints. So why would he be suspicious. :? In any case if Neil says it is okay to do it you can safely go ahead for he wrote the bible on the subject.


Very good point Sturdee, I know neil wrote the book on this stuff (i have a copy myself!) but just wanted to check.


Mingus, check your email.

Recieved, Mini. Thats a lot of info! :D

[rapsod]

How to make black shellac?

[Barry_White]

How to make black shellac?

Rapsod

Did you see my post.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=405026&postcount=7

[la Huerta]

hey all...just going to pick up this thread a bit...

i'm just about to finish a coffee table that is quite large, 1300mm square, now i want to stain with tinted shellac to get a really clear finish, it's old oregon I'm using so it has that tricky grain like pine, so i'll be doing a few clear coats first to seal it before starting with the color...

...so my question is, how should i apply the tinted shellac ?, being such a large surface area, i mean if i brush it on half of it will dry before i get to the other side, i'm worried about brush and lap marks, it being colored, i expect to be applying about 10ish coats of the tinted shellac to build the color gradually, but what would be the best way for me to apply it ???

ps, i don't have spray gear or room for spraying anyway, so it's got to be by hand ...

thanks in advance...

[Sofaman]

Hello la Huerta

It only took me 3 years of part time TAFE to learn how to French Polish so your table should be finished by 2010!!

No, seriously, shellac is great to work with and quite forgiving in that you can easily get back to a fresh start if you stuff things up, but it has properties that make it difficult to get used to - quick drying being one obvious example.

I would suggest making and using a "rubber" to apply any shellac on a large flat surface. There's a reason the old method is still used today. As for how to use it......

A few tips:

Get a book on French Polishing. It will give you basic ideas and explain the whys and wherefores.

Play. Practice on something similar to your oregan table top to see the effects and to enable you to make mistakes. You can sand back and/or wash off and start again on your practice piece over and over. Heartbreaking to have to do it on the real thing. And you'll find a technique that works for you quite quickly by having a small piece to practice on.

Grain fill. (You can do this after your initial sealer coats) One reason shellac looks great is the warmth and clarity it gives, but this is achieved with quite thin layers. If you have a "hungry" looking surface it will always look ordinary. It might be shiny but it won't look right.

Keep things warm and dry. Its not ideal polishing weather at the moment.

There's plenty more to getting a good finish but this should get you a pretty good result. Any thoughts from the others out there?

[ubeaut]

G'day la Huerta - I'm presuming you want to see the timber beneeth the finish and not blanket it out with colour, in which case I personally wouldn't be applying the stain in the shellac but rather changing the colour of the timber with a water dye.

Putting the colour in the shellac and applying it won't give a really clear finish. You might just as well use paint. Without having a really good knowledge of french polishing it will be really hard to get an even colour consistency on such a big area.

Cut some of your shellac with around 10 parts meth and apply 1 thin coat to the surface of the timber. When dry sand it very lightly (1 light wipe over the surface will usually suffice) with your finest grit abrasive (1200 is best) to remove any nibs raised by previous sanding. Then apply the water dye which should go on evenly over the timber without blotching, streaking or any other problems. Allow it to dry thoroughly before even thinking about applying any more polish.

As Sofaman rightly said: Practice, practice, practice on a similar piece of timber. And beware of the dreaded cold, damp and humid weather.

[la Huerta]

hey Neil, how are ya mate !!!

yes i actually do want to mask the grain, or actually not show the grain but still have a transparent finish (does that make scene ?)...ok, with oregon (and pine), when it's stained the light and dark (zebra stripes) will naturally be seen because these stripes absorb different amounts of stain, the result on a large table is a heck of a lot of strips, know what i mean, even with a wash coat of shellac it still happens (although just not a much), so my solution was to to tint the finish and apply light coats till i reach the color i want, but i'd first seal the timber with a few coats of the clear finish so the tinted finish would lay on top and would not get into the grain at all, i did this with poly, and the color and quality turned out very good...but, being poly, it was way to thick and plastic and i really don't like poly anyway, but the idea was good, i think pro's use this technique when spraying (build up the color one coat at a time)...

so what i was thinking of was tinting the shellac and doing it the same way as i did with the poly, but i know the shellac will dry to fast for me to even it out (unlike the poly)...

and i want to finish off with beeswax so i end up with a lovely patina...

...i'v been at this for quite a while (about 2 yrs) and still haven't got a finish that i love)

think i need some serious help, hey ...(may be a shrink !)

attached is a pic of a little table that i went and looked at in a shop, the finish is kind of brown/choc, but very clear and transparent, not muddy and the tint is in the finish (not in the timber), when i looked at the finish of this piece in direct sunlight it changed color from a choc to a lovely warm brown, i'm not concerned about getting the color match i know that the proof-tint type stains will give this transparent color when added into a finish (i'll experiment to get the exact color i want later) but i guess the big question is , what finishing to put it in??? (oh and i don't have spray gear nor the space or air circulation for spraying, so that's out)

sorry to kidnap the thread but any help i can get is appreciated, this is what happens when your a self educated, you just got to ask lots of questions and kind of figure it out as you go...:?

been reading your book Neil, that's where i thought of tinting the shellac, as you mentioned it in there...