going frameless (door)

[6weekstobaby]

Hi, I'm expecting baby in 6 weeks and my husband and I are trying to do as much work on our 'new' old weatherboard in melbourne as possible before then.

Two questions:
1. Where can i buy a screed (ie large flat surface with straight edge and d handle) for larger areas of wall plastering in Melbourne - Bunnings mentone had never heard of them...

2. We have two bedrooms rooms with ugly wide door frames. We are proposing to remove the frames altogether and reinforce/replaster the corners for a lighter, more modern look -has anyone done this, did it look good, is metal re-inforcing the way to go? any hot tips on doing it?

Thanks heaps -

[silentC]

If you are going to pull off the architraves, what you will probably find underneath is the rough cut edge of the plaster, then a gap, then the edge of the door jamb. If the door jambs are flush with the plaster, you will be very lucky. So you might have a problem getting a good flush finish.

The other problem you will probably have is that it will crack along the join between the plaster and whatever you use to fill the gap. I don't know what sort of reinforcing you have in mind. You could try using the flush external corner strip that you use with gyprock. I don't know how successful that would be with the timber door jamb.

Do you intend to paint the jambs the same colour as the walls and attempt to make it all look the same?

[Bleedin Thumb]

Ah yes that weird last minute must redecorate the house and nursey before baby comes along syndrom. LOL- Some biological drive I'd say.:D or diversion tactics.:rolleyes:

I'll leave it up to somebody with more experience in plastering to answer your questions. BTW CONGRATULATIONS:)

[6weekstobaby]

Hi C,
Yes, would paint the jams the same colour.

Yes, was planning to use the metal corner stripping used with gyprock external corners...sounds like we might have to see what's under there and worst case, add a finer architrave if the jam sticks out much past the plaster...what do you think?

[6weekstobaby]

thx bleedin thumb - definitely a biological drive, and unfortunately left a bit late in this case - although now that I've finished work can at least do the research and buy the materials for hubby to work late into the night!

[Bleedin Thumb]

Silent has just explained what I wanted to but more succinctly.
You could put a shadow line around the frame which means that youy overcome the problem of joining your reinforcement strip to the timber.
I can't find my catalog at present I'll have a look and post a link.

[Bleedin Thumb]

http://www.rondo.com.au/rondo/documents/Exangle2004.pdf

Heres a link for the steel. page 7 has the shadow lines. Good luck.:)

[6weekstobaby]

Thanks bleedin - what is a shadow line...or is that what the catelogue will tell me?

Also, any idea on where to buy the screed in melbourne (for inside the bedroom walls, where the plaster falls away above a join line ie. is not flush and will need a fair bit of plastering to make it flush..

[silentC]

sounds like we might have to see what's under there and worst case, add a finer architrave if the jam sticks out much past the plaster...what do you think?
I think that's a good idea.

[Bleedin Thumb]

6 weeks, a shodow line is a small recess around your frame or jam. It means that the point where the crack normally appears is butting up to the jam and out of site. its a bit more fiddly than a straight plaster corner but for what you want is worth it. A little trick is to prime and paint your steel profile before you fix it especially if you are going to paint it a different colour ( to highlight the shadow for example) other wise you use a very small brush and swear a lot.
32589

32590

[6weekstobaby]

Bleedin and silent: Thank-you both heaps for going to so much trouble to help. We'll check out the damage under the architraves, and then decide whether to go the shadow line or just finer frame.

Anyone know where I can find the plaster screed (for smoothing large areas) in melbourne (Bunnings doesn't have them)

Cheers ..6weeks

[silentC]

No problem.

Regarding the screed, I can't help with that but I've never seen a plasterer use one. Usually, you would just use a broad knife (you can buy cheap plastic ones from the same place you get your plaster top coat etc) and use a straight edge to check that it's straight. Not sure what sort of finish you would get trying to screed it. You could use a straight bit of timber? Maybe Rod will be able to answer this one better.

[johnc]

You might choose to use a screed if it was solid plaster, for gyprock it probably doesn't have a purpose. Rod will correct me if wrong. Are you sure you are not looking for a trowel?

John.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Most plasterboard resellers have a 2.4 m long straight edge but they don't have the D handle. The straight edge with the D handle is used by concreters to screed off concrete.

So I would try a supplier of concreters tools.

I just use a 4 ft spirit level if I have to float a large area with plaster. This forms the general level, then scrape back and finish off with a 12" blade.

I am a little confused with exactly what you want to achieve removing the frames. Are you doing away with the doors completely or do you just want to get rid of the arcs.

If you just want an opening with no door, like a square opening with no frames, there is a post below that describes how to set up the external angles for this method.

If you want to keep the timber door frame and the door but remove the arcs. Then that is no problem either. The shadow line p50 angle is most likely the best way to go. Or you can use a p25 stopping angle butted up to the frame to finish off. If using the p25 (no shadowline) it is a good idea to have the p25 angle protrude about 5mm beyond the timber frame to give it definition. If it finishes flush you will get a hairline crack between the angle and the frame.

By having the 5mm quirk to give it definition you can run a very thin bead of no more gaps up the join to prevent a hairline crack appearing. You cant do this very neatly if it is flush.

You can not use external angles over the timber and trowel off the plaster onto the timber. Timber and plaster expand and contract at different rates and will ultimately crack and fall off.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.

PS. Any of you guys wanting to use p50 around the doors for a shadow line look, can get a much better finish by rebating the timber fame 10mm wide and 8mm deep to achive the shadowline and then use a p25 angle butted to the frame. It comes up much cleaner and sharper.

Rod.

[Pulse]

Rod, how about MDF stopends (http://www.tradeconnect.com.au/plasterboard-mdf-stopends-jambs-c-44_1263.html)? why do they not crack?

Cheers Pulse

[rod@plasterbrok]

To be honest that is the first time I have seen them.

I don't know if they have been tested or for how long.

I do know that over a period of time any plaster stopped up to timber in most cases will fail.

The principle behind them is a good idea. In practice I dont know. My guess is that they would get a hairline crack eventually. I am saying that because of my experience with seeing the problems when plaster and timber has been stopped up together in the past, not from first hand experience with this product.

They would certainly give you a great finish to begin with. I wouldn't use them myself if I had to take responsibility for the long term result, until I was totally convinced they would never crack

I am sure they have tested them but personally I wouldn't trust them. I only have to look at the cracks in my painted MDF arcs to see that MDF will react to moisture, heat etc.

Have you used them? If so how long have they been installed?

Cheers Rod

[Pulse]

Thanks for the reply Rod, I haven't used them but I've seen them used in a commercial office fitout. They were used with aluminium extrusion for doors and windows. I was just interested in them because they could save quite a bit of time.

Anyone used them?

Cheers
Pulse

[ian]

Six weeks
I'm going to suggest a totally different approach ...

You've got an old weatherboard but you don't like the door architraves.
Radical changes are likely to devalue the property in the eyes of someone who is looking for the stylistic elements common to houses of its era.

I think you have a few options
1) live with what you've got and in a few years bulldoze the old house and get a new one built
2) gyprock the walls to hide the blemishes and visually reduce the bulk of the door frames.
3) pull the architraves, patch the walls, install narrower archtraves, etc


ian

[6weekstobaby]

Rod thanks for the extra detail..intention was to keep doors but get rid of ugly thick, undetailed frames...

Having said that, Ian, you've hit the nail on the head (:)) re the style issue.

The house is a 50's weatherboard and unlike Victorian, Cally-bungalow etc it doesn't seem to have a distinct architectural style - it's just all pretty standard stuff without frills - fireplace painted white surrounded with plaster moulding is the detail highlight.

This is complicated by changes over the years that have resulted in different styles eg. four different types of cornice/architrave, one gyprock plastered 70's extension room added at rear, rest of house hairy drywall stuff, a pseudo mexican brick/tiled feature at back, with most of house cement tiled roof but extension colourbond...so it's really hard as we upgrade the pitted, old wallpaper ridden front rooms and lounge to know what to take them back to ...

On top of this we are having quotes done now to rebuild kitchen/lean to and bathroom, these will be new/fairly modern...so we've been trying to get the rest of the house to at least a decent standard and a fairly neutral style...hnece removing the frames - maybe though we should just replace the ugly, thick no style frames of those front bedrooms with something finer like the 70's rear extension and new rooms will be ...

Would love some advice on what to do with a house that started with no distinct style and now has bits and pieces of everything - apart from doze it - that unfortunately wasn't an option from cost perspective - plus the house actually has a nice lived in, homey feel and great garden and front rendered fence, in good street.

thanks Corinne

[ian]

Ian, you've hit the nail on the head (:)) re the style issue.

The house is a 50's weatherboard and unlike Victorian, Cally-bungalow etc it doesn't seem to have a distinct architectural style - it's just all pretty standard stuff without frills - fireplace painted white surrounded with plaster moulding is the detail highlight.

This is complicated by changes over the years that have resulted in different styles eg. four different types of cornice/architrave, one gyprock plastered 70's extension room added at rear, rest of house hairy drywall stuff, a pseudo mexican brick/tiled feature at back, with most of house cement tiled roof but extension colourbond...so it's really hard as we upgrade the pitted, old wallpaper ridden front rooms and lounge to know what to take them back to ...

On top of this we are having quotes done now to rebuild kitchen/lean to and bathroom, these will be new/fairly modern...so we've been trying to get the rest of the house to at least a decent standard and a fairly neutral style...hnece removing the frames - maybe though we should just replace the ugly, thick no style frames of those front bedrooms with something finer like the 70's rear extension and new rooms will be ...

Would love some advice on what to do with a house that started with no distinct style and now has bits and pieces of everything - apart from doze it - that unfortunately wasn't an option from cost perspective - plus the house actually has a nice lived in, homey feel and great garden and front rendered fence, in good street.

thanks CorinneCorine
I think I'd gut the two front rooms back to the wall frames, then gyprock and new architraves around the doors.
Suffer the pain of one biggish reno while you're having the kitchen, bathroom and leanto modernised
You'll probably want to move out anyway while the kitchen etc is done.


ian

[Bleedin Thumb]

Corine
I think I'd gut the two front rooms back to the wall frames, then gyprock and new architraves around the doors.
Suffer the pain of one biggish reno while you're having the kitchen, bathroom and leanto modernised
You'll probably want to move out anyway while the kitchen etc is done.


ian

Ian -5 weeks to the big day and your suggesting a major reno and move out of the house!
I'm sure that will go down well.

[6weekstobaby]

Actually, I have come to terms with that the kitchen/bathroom reno won't be finished for our little girl; as we're only getting quotes now - hopefully it will be started though, and finished by Christmas...we can hide out in the 70's extension - quite nice and far from serviced area.

We've decided in the two older front rooms to patch the dry-wall and replace the thick ugly door frames with finer ones similar to those that will be in the newer area's...seems the easiest and best fit with keeping some consistency of style.

Matt (hubby) has the wallpaper off in those rooms and is madly patching the plaster with multi purpose gyprock as we speak - it's got quite a few little holes and pits and small cracks plus a joint halfway up where it falls away a bit towards the ceiling but is do-able with a bit of patience. Matt was an aeromodelleler and boat finisher in previous lives so quite pedantic at this stuff.

Then we'll sand back the windows (french-ish style) whip on a nice coat of paint, get some carpet laid and both rooms willbe nearly goos as new..and this can be done before baby.

Thanks so much for all your feedback, really helpful in getting us to this decision and will store up all the tips for the future...sure I'll have plenty more questions in this and other reno subjects...

Corinne

[silentC]

I don't want to alarm you, but keep this in mind: We started a renovation a few weeks after the baby came home. To cut a long story short, she had a lot of trouble with respiratory infections and other things and was diagnosed with mild asthma. My wife was also diagnosed with asthma at the same time. She'd never had any health problems before. We put it down to the dust. 7 years on, the wife still usess the puffer occasionally but no problems yet (touch wood) with the daughter.

Just be careful about the dust. When you start stripping rooms, you have decades of dust, especially in the ceiling, which will fill your house. Then there's the dust from the reno itself. If you're going to do it, make sure that the living areas are well sealed off from where the work is being done.

[ian]

To second silentC, it's well worth it to invest in a good industrial standard dust extractor/vacuum. In your situation, especially if you're going to live in the house while the kitchen and bathrtoom are done I think as well as installing a dust curtain around the reno, I'd get a good vac AND one or more room air filters AND I'd pay a little extra to get the quitest model.

[6weekstobaby]

Hi Ian and Silentc,

Just back after not being on the site for a few days to see your comments - interesting that a version of this is exactly what has been going on - ie Matt now has pulled off the old plaster and completely resanded and repainted one room and the other is in mid plaster now.

There are boxes of stuff everywhere, the house is dusty, dirty, cold and I am feeling extremely stressed about it.(although not yet asmatic!)

Not only that, we decided to do the floors while we were at it to finish the rooms and while the colour is beautiful; we've messed it up with ridges across the boards (doing it late at night for first time, not really seeing and then varnishing over it anyway!!).

Question now is do we live with it, get it fixed professionally or get the sander back and re-do it. Matt has done such a great job on the walls, seems a shame to live with it.

Having said that, we also got the quote back from the builder last night on the kitchen/bathroom renovation/extension and it's $80k - vs our budget of $50k (actually, our budget was $50 including fittings, which have cost about $20k!)..so last night was fairly stressful to put it mildly....4 weeks off having the the baby, two quotes both around $30k more than we can afford or is worth investing in the house, the 'new' kitchen cupboards, appliances and bathroom fittings bought and on their way....

Anyway, the plan today is to speak with the builder to see where we might reduce costs, follow up a couple of others who haven't got their quotes in, speak to the architect who knew our budget in the first place and take it from their ....wish us luck!! and any advice appreciated.

I will post the is there an esy way to fix the floor question in the floor forum.

Cheers Corinne