Grey Water Tank

[woodsprite]

Well, nothing new or grand here, but thought I would share what I did (all day) yesterday with our shower and bath water. Firstly, after much asking about I discovered that for Bendigo area at least, you can DIY GW plumbing IF it is not permanent - meaning that if needed the 'system' can be qucikly disconnected and the waste flow directed back into the sewerage or septic system.

I used 50mm grey water diverter valves - available at rip-off prices from hardware shops and plumbing supplies. Interesting - last Firday I checked prices ar our local Home hardware - $27.95 a piece - on Sunday they were $19.50!! These are good simple valve mechanisms, but a bit over-priced I reckon.

Anyway, out house is lucky enough to have clearance underneath, albeit only about 18 inches, so I spent the day inserting the valves under our old shower-over-bath, and the more recently added bathroom. The plumber re-built the plumbing system of the house during our renovations and extension and was kind enough to organise the pipework so that I could relatively easily fit the valves.
I ran 1 inch poly pipe suspended from the floor bearers so that it had a slight fall, to a 200 litre solid plastic barrel beneath our verandah (we have a fair slope on the land and their was room for the barrel plus some). Fitted a 19mm plastic tap at the base of the barrel, and now, we have collected our first lot of shower water! Repeated this for the new shower.

Yes, it means that we still have to empty the barrel each morning into buckets, but at least we can now use the water on the garden. Around these parts water is getty very precious - Lake Eppalock is down to 3% of capacity and the entire supply capacity for central vic is at about 12% - and we are all on maximum restrictions - NO outside watering except with recycled water.

I will today rig up a pipe from the barrel to run along a couple of garden beds so we can trickle feed the plants as needed. But I am happy to spend 10 minutes each morning bucketing water around the garden.

Our laundry water goes out through a similar valve, but directly onto the garden via a few connected lengths of that corrugated flexible pipe (also sold at rip-off prices). So now we are able to recycle about 80% of the water we use.

For those who do not know, grey water should not be stored for longer than 24 hours, and can become VERY toxic very quickly, so it needs to be dispersed around the place pretty promptly.

All up cost was a bit under $100.00 for the valves, a lenght of the flexible pipe and a few fittings. Seeing that we are unlikely to be ablke to water gardens from taps and hoses for at least another 12 months (if ever) I reckon this was a good investment.
Now all I have to do is wait for my bumps and bruises to heal! Not a lot of room under the house and those bearers and joists are HARD!!!:(

Interested to hear what other folk have done with their grey water.
Cheers,
Jeff

[silentC]

We're not on town sewerage, so all of our grey water and every colour in between goes into an onsite sewerage treatment plant. The effluent, which is more or less clear, is pumped out into a small poly tank. We have the tank plumbed up via a pump to all of our toilets. The tank also has a diver pump in it. We allow the effluent to build up to a certain level in the tank before it is them pumped out onto the garden. The diver pump cuts off when it gets to a level that we have determined is enough to flush the bogs for a day.

All that cost quite a bit to set up (thousands) but aside from the fact that we had to do the onsite sewerage anyway, the toilet set up means we are not using fresh water to tip down the bogs. In fact, much of the same water effectively goes round and round and round.

[woodsprite]

SilentC, that sounds like the perfect system! We looked at doing the same here, to try and escape connection to the new sewerage scheme in our little town - the health authorities would not allow it because we had a sewerage connection available!

Was going to be $8000 for the system, installed and operating, plus about an extra $200.00 for quarterly maintenance (has to be done and signed off by a plumber) plus electricity costs for pumping. AND we would have still have to have pay about $300.00 for the sewerage connection - regardless if we hooked into it or not!

So best of luck with your excellent recycler - pity that some local governments were not a bit more flexible with regard to these systems. We would have been able to re-use tens of thousands of litres of water had we been allowed to install a decent system!

Jeff

[silentC]

I wouldn't want it to reflect too kindly on our council though. The reason we are not on town sewerage is because there was no capacity in the existing system to connect in any more households. Same with the water supply. By allowing people to install these systems, they put the full cost onto the householder and don't need to raise funds for the infrastructure. They also collect a fee to 'commission' the system (which means they come out and look at it and say "OK, you can switch it on") plus they do a site inspection every couple of years, for which they charge about $80.

We paid cost price for ours because my old man is a plumber and he does the servicing of the systems in our area. It was still in the vicinity of $6000. Naturally he does the services but I suppose one day we will have to retire him and probably start paying someone to do it. You also have to get the septic tank pumped out periodically. If I had known more about them, I would have installed a composting toilet.

The guy who attempted to subdivide the land where our block is was foiled at every turn by the council because of the lack of services. He gave up in the end and sold the lot to another guy who persisted a bit longer. He managed to get the zoning changed to Rural 1a, which meant that 2 acre blocks could be sold with no services. There is nothing to stop them from demanding that we connect at some future date if they ever upgrade the system. If that happens, we will fight it but ultimately if we are forced to pay for it, we will use the system we have now to handle grey water only. It would be a shame and let's hope they have enough sense to see the benefits.

There is a precedent here. A mate of my Dad's had an on site system. When the sewer main was run past his house, he was advised he would have to connect to it. He refused and so far they have not pushed the issue. He is an ex-health inspector with the same council, so maybe it's a case of looking after your own. Maybe he knows too much for them to make an enemy of him ;)

[Grunt]

so all of our grey water and every colour in between

What colour goes in between grey?

[silentC]

Well, on the RGB scale, R=1, G=1 and B=1 is grey, so is R=254, G=254 and B=254. So if you want to be clever about it, every colour other than white and black is between grey :p

[Mcblurter]

Dear Woodsprite
Be a bit careful with washing machine water. A lot of washing detergents have a lot of salt in them and can really mess up your soil and plants. I think CHOICE may have done a review of washing powders, might be worth a look.
Cheers
Mcblurter

You know when you put a stick in water and it looks bent? That's why I never take baths.

[woodsprite]

Thanks Mcblurter - we have been pumping the machine water onto the garden for a couple of months now, but have been careful about the contents of the detergent. The most recent setup - as in this thread - is for shower/bath water only, and I wil lcertainly look at the Choice pages to see about the soap/shampoo contents so that we don't muck the plants around. Have to say that at the moment the garden smells BEAUTIFUL!! all that sweet soapy water - who needs flowers!!:)

Thanks for the tip

[Joister]

not sure if this adds anything new

similar to you in that we have a bit of slope to work with and we're thinking of running shower water into the garden via a switch mechanism which i'll still have to work out and install

a builder girl i was speaking to said you can run it into the garden via a retic system but regs (in NSW) require it to be a certain depth (from memory i think she said around a couple of hundred mm's - i was talking to her whilst a wee bit drunk so don't remember too much) -

she has seen a few simple switches in different houses so that every number of showers people have their shower water head off to the garden and then inbetween back into the sewer system (means you lose the water for inbetween showers)

guess that means cost for extra piping and also making sure hair, soap, etc.. doesn't clog the small pipes of a retic system or else can be easily cleaned

[woodsprite]

G'day Joister, An interesting comment there. I think by rights the grey water pipe in the garden does need to be a bit buried - but who is going to check? We have found that simply running all grey water (showers and bath) into the big drums works well, even though we have to bucket it out onto the garden. But by bucleting we can spread the water around to where it is needed - our garden (what's left) is pretty extensive and it is not worth my while to put in pipes all over the place. However I may rig up a small washing machine pump to help squirt a bit around within reach of the drums, but so far we haven't got tired of carting the buckets.

If you need to filter, a simple filter as used in the home atering systems with drippers/sprays will do the job. At least with the drums we don;t need to filter.

Washing machine water goes out to a different pipe which we direct to different points of the garden. Once a week I shoot a load of wash water down the sewer line to make sure it gets a decent flush. We have about 115 metres of pipe between the house and the sewer line in the street, so it needs a decent flush.

I want to drown in dihydrogen monoxide.
Jeff

[GraemeCook]

Hi Woodsprite and All.

I do not know the chemistry involved in putting soaps and detergents on the garden, but if they are sufficiently diluted it probably will not make much difference.

Woodsprite, have you looked at putting a small pump on your drum then you can hose the grey stuff all over the garden. Those buckets will get heavy.

Now if you were to re-direct your roof water, and if it ever rains, then you would have a lot more water, need a bigger drum, a bigger pump and hose,.... and your little project just turned into a big project!

Amazing how that happens.

Cheers

Graeme

[totoblue]

Dear Woodsprite
Be a bit careful with washing machine water. A lot of washing detergents have a lot of salt in them and can really mess up your soil and plants. I think CHOICE may have done a review of washing powders, might be worth a look.

More on that at these links. You have to be careful of salinity, sodium, phosphorus, pH, and sulphur.

http://www.lanfaxlabs.com.au/laundry.htm
http://203.147.191.184/Uploads/3/Products/LaundryProducts-Feb06.pdf

It looks pretty dire for your garden if you are using the worst of the detergents.

Choice tested laundry detergents in May 05 which you can get at www.choiceextra.com.au (http://www.choiceextra.com.au) if you are a subscriber (or from www.choice.com.au (http://www.choice.com.au) summary here http://tinyurl.com/ybqz7h).

According to Choice there are not many detergents that get an NP tick (low phosphorus) and don't have enzymes (the 2nd link above says enzymes are bad for your garden). None of the detergents in the Choice table that are NP and no enzymes are specifically formulated for front loaders but some are ok for front loaders.

[Moray]

I have an old plastic olive barrel, about 250 litres and I'm thinking of putting it on the side of the house, next to the laundry and running the washing machine into it. I was thinking of adding a small pump so i can water the lawn and the garden with a hose.

I noticed you said grey water can be toxic and should be used quickly. Given that do you think my propsed setup would be ok ?

cheers
Moray

[JDub]

Gday Moray,

I know that post is a couple of weeks old, but I am about to experiment doing exactly the same thing (200L drum with cheap pump etc to re use washing machine and shower water on lawn and garden).

From what I understand you just need to use the grey water within 24hrs (before any nasties have a chance to grow) and you should be fine.

Joel

[Stuart]

It's not just nasties. Grey water typically produces sulphur dioxide as it breaks down, which is deadly to breath in relatively small quantities. Smells like rotten eggs (same gas), but it quickly overwhelmes the olfactory system, so you don't know if it means the gas is gone, or too high a concentration to smell.

The navy has lost a number of personnel to this gas (people going into collection tanks without adequate protection), so it is treated very seriously. Ok, not necessarily a problem for most home collection systems, but it is worth knowing there are other risks, other than just the biological ones.

Not trying to put anyone off - am definitely considering to start using grey water around the garden myself.

[silentC]

There was something on the ABC the other night about that. An unsolved double murder on Lane Cove river. Some bloke has written a book about it suggesting that they succumbed to gas produced by pollution in the river. The interviewer asked the author why they wouldn't have been able to smell it and he said exactly what you just said. His theory is that they were down there getting up to mischief (hence the partial undress) and they were in a hollow where the gas, which is heavier than air, pooled. No cause of death was ever established, no injuries or signs of a struggle.

I have to move up my filtration project because the air pump in our system failed the other day, and it coincided with those two very hot days we had. The result was a rank odour coming from the toilets. I don't think it was toxic but it wasn't pleasant.

Edit: The Bogle/Chandler Case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogle-Chandler_case)

[JDub]

Edit: The Bogle/Chandler Case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogle-Chandler_case)

So if you are going to check out your grey water tank and havnt emptied it for a couple of days, make sure you put some clothes on ;)

[dzcook]

ok just been reading some of these posts and wondering if u can store the grey water for 24 hrs could u rig up a small pump to pump the greywater (thru a filter ) back into the toilet system so u are flushing with used water ?

Thought of a 200 lt tank with a float value in it so always some water there (mains ) but then collecting the shower washer water as well and reusing that then being able to perhaps pump the water out onto the garden as well if the tank was filled ? would this be legal ?? as this would be diluted grey water would that reduce the toxicity of the water / gases

[joez]

Dzcook,

You can download the water recycling regulations (pdf) from the epa website, or PM me your email address if you'd like me to email them to you.


joez71

[silentC]

You have to keep in mind a couple of things:

You don't want any risk of cross contamination from your grey water to your water mains. You have to be very careful about how you do it. Just sticking a normal float valve in is probably not going to be good enough.

Also, the water that you put into your cisterns will sit in the cistern and the pan for any length of time. Say you flush your loo just before you go on 3 weeks holiday. It's going to be pretty rank by the time you get home.

[rsser]

Thanks for these posts folks; read with interest.

I was thinking about installing a rainwater tank for the garden watering (living in the 'urbs) and wondered where I could find out the formula to match the tank size to the roof collection area. Any advice?

Course at the moment a small bucket would do but we live in hope.

[Grunt]

Thanks to the metric system it's easy.

For every square metre of roof space and every metre of rain you'll get 1000 litres of water.

So if your house is 20x10 metres you'll have a roof area of 200 square metres. Average annual rainfall for Melbourne is 600mm so you'll have 200 * 600 = 120,000 litres of water a year.

You could put a pretty big tank on your house say 45,000 litres but you'll need a big backyard to have the space for it.

How big an area do you have for a tank?

[Stuart]

ok just been reading some of these posts and wondering if u can store the grey water for 24 hrs could u rig up a small pump to pump the greywater (thru a filter ) back into the toilet system so u are flushing with used water ?

Thought of a 200 lt tank with a float value in it so always some water there (mains ) but then collecting the shower washer water as well and reusing that then being able to perhaps pump the water out onto the garden as well if the tank was filled ? would this be legal ?? as this would be diluted grey water would that reduce the toxicity of the water / gasesYes you can, but definitely check some sites about how to do it properly. A filter is not enough - you will need to also give the water an actual treatment process. There are a few different ways of doing it. The one that we were using on the ANZACs involved putting salt into the water (when salt water was being used in the system, this obviously wasn't a problem, but if the ship was being used in a fresh water environment, then we'd have to supply the salt!). This is then passed through a catalytic cell which basically zapped the water with electricity between 2 grids. This killed some of the bugs, and the rest, well, the electricity also split the salt into sodium and 'ta da' chlorine. It would then sit in a tank for a predetermined amount of time for the chlorine to do its job, then the whole lot was pumped overboard.

Not sure what process is used for residential grey water systems, but it is more than just a filter - thus the cost.


Thanks for these posts folks; read with interest.

I was thinking about installing a rainwater tank for the garden watering (living in the 'urbs) and wondered where I could find out the formula to match the tank size to the roof collection area. Any advice?

Course at the moment a small bucket would do but we live in hope.

Easy enough to do yourself - calculate the roof area, then multiply it by the average rainfall that you expect to receive and want to capture completely (eg roof area = 150 m^2 rainfall = 5mm, so a tank to capture it all would be 0.75m^2. ie 750l )

See - even a small amount of rain will fill one of those 1000l tanks very easily. Imagine what a decent rainfall would supply!

[Stuart]

Grunt sweeps in, beats me to the post again :roll:

I knew I shouldn't have replied to 2 posts at once!

[rsser]

Thanks guys; this forum really hums!

I want to fill off the garage, which is around 10 x 5 m, so your formulae gives 30k l in an average year - assuming we have any more of those. There's space behind the garage at the top of the block slope for a tank.

I read in the paper that a 1k l tank would give you 60 mins of hosing (not sure whether that was by pump or gravity feed) - all we have is a small veggie patch and a few trees and shrubs so maybe 30k l would be overkill. What do you think?

[joez]

There are some handy calculators here : http://www.polyworld.com.au/calculations.htm


joez

[Stuart]

I'd go with 2000L - it is only about $150 more than the 1000, so it really isn't that much more for double the capacity.

[rsser]

Thanks again; v. helpful.

Yes, forgot to mention there's space but very limited access to get the tank up the back so it may need a rectangular job or several in series.

[squashedfrog1]

oh and dont go to Bunnies or some such place to purchase your tank. Grab the Weekly Times (comes out on Wednesdays) and sometimes the trading post and you'll find all the manufacturers sales advertisements listed together. When choosing a tank, go for the biggest you can afford and fit.

sf

[Grunt]

You can also try ebay.

These sort of tanks might be just the thing.
http://i8.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/5b/c8/e3_1.JPG

Also, getting hold of a tank at the moment might be a bit tricky. Up to 4 months waiting period for some tanks. I ordered a 25,000 litre tank in November which I won't get until Feb.

[rsser]

Nice one Grunt, thanks.

I'll have to grow a Virginia creeper over it or else look like a Milawa winery ;-}

Yeah, I gather one or two other folk are having similar thoughts and there's a wait.

sf, thanks for the tip. Bunnies tanks a prob? PM me if you wouldn't mind. Not that a read of the Weekly Times is an issue.

[Stuart]

Probably cost. Didn't know about the Weekly Times - thank for the tip.

Anyone know an actual outlet with better prices (than Bunnies)?

[Iain]

You can also try ebay.

These sort of tanks might be just the thing.
http://i8.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/5b/c8/e3_1.JPG

Also, getting hold of a tank at the moment might be a bit tricky. Up to 4 months waiting period for some tanks. I ordered a 25,000 litre tank in November which I won't get until Feb.

They are pretty expensive compared to a 27000litre at $2400 (a crowd in Pakenham manufacture them, can't recall the name).
I could fit a few hundred in my back yard:D

[rsser]

I've been collecting some prices and other info and will post them in due course. It's a bit hard to get the data because of the holidays and I guess because the makers are flat out like a lizard drinking.

Eg. (and only because it cropped up first), a Nylex oval tank of 2100l is $1600 and a four month wait.

Meantime, can anyone advise on what angle of fall the fill pipe for a rainwater tank should have?

Thanks in advance

[rsser]

ps, the Pakenham crowd are at www.opstanks.com.au

[journeyman Mick]

Ern,
your fill pipe can be at a few different angles, depending on distance from gutters etc. Vertical, 5 deg from horizontal and about 45 deg. If you use a 90 deg fitting from your downpie dropper to the tank you'll find that it will be pretty much 5 degrees off horizontal as the PVC drainage and stormwater fittings are made to allow for fall. If required you can get different angles, but it ain't rocket science. I've got a 15m run from my front gutter to my rainwater tank in 90mm pvc with about 5deg fall. The front gutter doesn't overflow noticeably faster then the rear which discharges almost directly into the tank. When the gutters do overflow it's because there's only one dropper on each run of 18m which isn't really enough when you get a tropical deluge.

Mick

[rsser]

Thanks Mick.

I hadn't thought of 90mm pipe. With standard quad gutter I'd just assumed 2 or 3 inch. There's not going to be much diff between the gutter and tank inlet levels.

[rsser]

Well here's enough data to clog your mental pipes for a while:

This stuff is relevant to the use of untreated grey water from washing machines for garden use ... http://www.lanfaxlabs.com.au/

Covers the composition of laundry detergents; powders and liquids; concentrated and not; top loading solutions and front loading; wash cycle and full cycle.

These guys did the test for Choice and will be doing another for ACA this year.

General picture seems to be that liquids are less damaging than powders, and concentrated powders less damaging than full packs.

There is no standard since the source water will vary in its composition, the salts and structure existing in the soil ditto, and plants vary in their needs.

Choice site also says not to use untreated wash cycle water whereas the ACF says you can.

[Stuart]

ps, the Pakenham crowd are at www.opstanks.com.au (http://www.opstanks.com.au)Best price I've found so far - thanks for the contact.

$600 for 2700L cf Bunnings $680 for 2000L

So yesterday I bought a pump (turns on when there is a pressure drop, so you turn on the tap and the pump provides the water), and have connected it to a wheelie bin. I ran a tube from the washing machine through the floor and under the house to the wheelie bin. The outlet from the pump is connected to my watering system computer :) The pump was about $360, and provides a maximum of 38L/min. It can cope with a max of 16m head, which is bloody impressive. I had tried a pump supplier earlier to find the same sort of thing, and the pump they quoted me that I'd need was apparently $1400 :doh:

The only thing I now need to source is a level control switch so the pump's electrical supply is cut when the water level drops too low. Only one I've found so far is $150 which is a stupid price for such a simple mechanism. Bunnings don't seem to know what one is, despite the fact they sell the tanks and the pumps.

Sometime soon, when the rest of the system is full commissioned and I'm happy with it, I will get one of the 2700L tanks and rig it into the system. It will probably be rainwater only, but will still route it through the pump so I can get mains-pressure water. I might even try to rig it into the toilet system so I can get the full $500 rebate. (Rather than just $150 for the tank). (I've found a switching valve that will connect mains water into the toilet when there is no tank water available.)

Don't bother asking anyone in plumbing at Bunnings about anything to do with the pumps they sell - they haven't gotten a clue. What annoys me, is they haven't even got enough commonsense to read the side of the box, before speaking with absolute authority that what they tell you is correct. They get very annoyed (and rude) when you read the box itself and find it contradicts what they have just told you.

[Big Shed]

Stuart,

This what you're looking for?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/LIQUID-LEVEL-FLOAT-SWITCH-WATER-SENSOR-CONTROLS-0_W0QQitemZ170065946027QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20755QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Fred

[Big Shed]

This is similar to what we use on our 4500l garden irrigation tank, with the addition of a pressure sensor.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-Onga-Rainwater-Tank-Garden-household-Pressure-Pump_W0QQitemZ290066558345QQihZ019QQcategoryZ46412QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Does a great job on our dripper lines.

Tank is filled from our dam, about 200mtrs away, using a 6.5hp Honda/Onga fire pump. Dam is starting to look sick though!:oo:

[rsser]

Thanks for the post Stuart.

An oval 2100 l Nylex tank is $1600 :~. I only have 1.2 m clearance to get it up the back so it has to be narrow, but there's a crowd making narrow tanks in Echuca hopefully for less.

Like you, I've put a waste water extension hose on the washing machine (no clearance for a PVC drainpipe diverter) and run it under the house and out a vent. It normally drains into the inspection cover on the PVC pipe but the washer can be programmed to allow us to put it into a wheel barrow for the rinse cycle. The plants are now getting more water than they have for years :;

[Stuart]

I'll post some pics shortly - first load tested last night - just the wash cycle produced an unbelievable 100L (I have a 9kg toploader, and it was a full load).

Even more frightening, is I put it through the sprays on just one part of the garden, and the whole lot was pumped through in about 5 minutes or so (didn't actually time it) - goes to show just how much drinking water I used to use on the garden :o

So I am very happy with the results so far - using the water twice, and my garden is now getting watered "off the grid". I may need to put a second bin next to the first, and run a manifold hose between the two. Lost quite a bit of the rinse water to the overflow back to stormwater - would prefer not to have that happen.

Now I just have to make a sign telling any nosy neighbours to bugger off. Getting neighbours to spy on each other for the authorities - what a crock. We need more comradery beween neighbours to improve society, not less.

That water level sensor from eBay is the kind of thing, now I just need one that
1. Isn't being eBayed from Singapore :rolleyes:
2. Can switch 240 V (as I don't know how to, nor would it be legal for me to set up a relay to do it myself - ok, so I am not known to take that line - too busy these days!)
3. Costs less than the $150 that I've been quoted so far by a Melbourne farming supply firm.

[rsser]

Yeah, we've been getting a large barrow full out of the deep rinse and that not even on the highest setting.

Think I read somewhere that a family of four can go through a thousand litres a week just with the washer.

[Grunt]

Isn't being eBayed from Singapore :rolleyes:

I've bought quite a bit from Singapore and Hong Kong. With PayPal it's pretty safe.

[Clinton1]

Ern,
Bluescope Steel sell the corrugated water tanks (with liner) and I have a sneaking suspision that they can make and assemble on site??
I remember seeing these "made on site" or "assembled on site" tanks when I was at the Seymor Ag Show. They are put together pretty quick and then lined.
Might be worth a look if you can find the makers. The manufacturer was making everything from @ 2000 lt to discharge tanks for industry and grain silos. From memory it was a little dearer, but not my much.

[Michael Breen]

This may be a bit off the side of the thread, but well..
We live in the bush and have an old septic tank into which everything goes. We only flush when we need to(solids). The water from the septic tank goes through a poly pipe 4" down the paddock to a reed bed (12x3 metres and about a metre deep)which we had scooped out by backhoe and have filled with 2" gravel and planted reeds in the gravel. The reeds, not pulled out by the sheep before fencing it off, are doing well. In the gravel I put a 44 gal drum with gashes in the sides. This provides a sump if we need to pump it out. The outflow of the reed bed drains on to a slope where we will grow fruit trees. The outflow is remarkably clear.

And as for the level of thinking in local government! They are good proof that we have too many levels of government. We just don't have the talent for three.
Great thread and thanks for the contributions which have helped me rethink and plan.
Michael

[workgoose]

Michael, your comment reminds me of when we lived in the Dandenongs near Melbourne, and we were on tank water, and happy with it. Then the mains water came through and we were required, with a threat of legal action, to remove all tanks and use mains water.I had always had a very low opinion of councils and /or politicians, but that episode really confirmed it.

[rsser]

Thanks for the tip Clinton.

http://www.bluescopewater.com.au/

Can't find a mention of on-site assembly but they do offer a 4000l job that will fit.

Stratco also make steel rainwater tanks btw.

[Iain]

If it's Stratco they will probably get it wrong and charge too much, got questionable customer service fromthem a few years ago when they undersupplied material for a carport, wouldn't back down or compensate and small claims were of no assistance whatsover.
I wound up having to purchase more sheet material to finish the job, and they quoted for 5 sheets when it only needed three, they argued the toss and reluctantly refunded for the excess material when I took it back.........after they inspected the finished carport

[rsser]

Bluescope slim 4000l tank is $2440 plus delivery ... eeek!

Going back to small steps, like fitting an overflow outlet to the wheelbarrow ;-}

Then will save up for one or two poly tanks. Seems the smaller ones are light enough for a couple of guys to manhandle over a garage so that opens up more choices. I like the look of this crowd: http://www.clarktanks.com.au/RW2000Under.htm

[Clinton1]

Ern,
220lt Food grade plastic drums are advertised in the Trading Post every week for $20 each.
They are empties from imported bulk food items. They come with a screw on lid and are heavy duty... but I'm not sure if they have a tap fitting on the base.
Could be a good interim measure.

[Michael Breen]

Michael, your comment reminds me of when we lived in the Dandenongs near Melbourne, and we were on tank water, and happy with it. Then the mains water came through and we were required, with a threat of legal action, to remove all tanks and use mains water.I had always had a very low opinion of councils and /or politicians, but that episode really confirmed it.

Thanks Workgoose. My ramblings, when I thought about them more, were really the suggestion that we ought to challenge Local Govt officials more and not take them too seriously. The ones around here in our "amalgamated" shire are battling to manage weeds, woads, wates and wubbish. Most of what they deal with is simply beyond them. Apologies to any decent LGov woodies.
Michael

[journeyman Mick]

Ern,
You can get 1000l pallet tanks (about 1200 x 1000 x 1000H). They're mounted on a plastic pallet and surrounded by a steel cage and they're stackable. I sell them for $150 but I think the freight might be a killer to your place.:rolleyes: Try chemical suppliers and agricultural supplies near you.

Mick

[rsser]

Thanks for the tips folks.

I also came across this kinda neat package solution:

http://www.rainreviva.com.au/default.asp

Something else to consider.

Just waiting for :rain:

[Stuart]

Ern,
You can get 1000l pallet tanks (about 1200 x 1000 x 1000H). They're mounted on a plastic pallet and surrounded by a steel cage and they're stackable. I sell them for $150 but I think the freight might be a killer to your place.:rolleyes: Try chemical suppliers and agricultural supplies near you.

Mick
Has anyone found a source of these in Melbourne? I am very keen to get my hands on one at that price.

Even the 220l food transport bins mentioned above would be good - at $20 it is a damned sight cheaper than the 240L wheeled rubbish bin. My current bin (120L) isn't big enough to collect all the grey water I am already creating!

Have already pumped over 1000L of water onto my garden and grass - it's ALL good :) Finally being able to utilise this otherwise wasted water feels great.

And finally - someone tell that ***** federal politician that any rainwater that goes into a tank isn't "denying the environment" because pretty much all of it flows directly to the sea through the stormwater system. What - the sea is going to get salter or something? And when the water I collect IS used, where is it going to go then? Either actually into the environment (rather than just the sea), or into the sewage system, where it can be reclaimed and used in the environment, or, flow to the sea. So who suffering (other than some 3rd party who's paying kickbacks to the politicians to be able to get our discharged water, and charge us for it, or it's reuse). Don't even THING of taxing me for trying to do the right thing for Melbourne's water situation. It would be a LOT cheaper if I just used mains water, or let my small part of the environment die. Smackerhead.

[Iain]

I saw them on ebay, someone in Somerton, or out that way, had a heapof them.
The big blue ones I have seen at various stockfeed places and 'bargain' centres, try a local equestrian shop, if they haven't got them they can probably point you in the right direction.
We got a heap of them from a cosmetic manufacturer, they contained all the goop that the other species love to smear themselves in, and it is all in a heavy poly liner within the bin so it is not tainted.

[joez]

Ern, not sure where your bases but theres a guy at the epping trash n treasure who sells them, usually the blue 240L Drum type but I have seen the 1000l caged version at his stand.


joez71

[rsser]

Thanks Joez.

Stuart, there were some 1k l pallet tanks advertised in the Trading Post before Xmas; might be worth checking to see if they're still around.

[rsser]

btw, for what it's worth Stuart, I do think the effects of rainwater harvesting need to be considered. Up my way there are three urban creeks that carry the stormwater; all three have had extensive tree planting and many native birds now use them for habitat and migration corridors. I'd hate to seem them turn into ponds of algae affected stagnant water.

I have no idea of what amount of diversion might result in this. Maybe some studies have been done or need to be done.

[Stuart]

Actually Ern, that is a good point - thanks for the perspective. I'm used to very urban environments where the water never sees the light of day again until it hits the sea. But obviously that is not always the case, so yes- proper research is needed.

In fact, the entire country's philosophy on water needs a major reevaluation. Countries such as Israel don't spray their crops anymore - wastes too much water. They are expert at drip irrigation systems for crops, and we have similar needs here - we need to get away from old water management practices.

[rsser]

Very true.

We've been able to take water for granted in Melbourne - one of Croxford's legacies.

btw, I'm in Reservoir - kind of ironic naming with the benefit of hindsight.

[Iain]

1000 l tanks Melbourne...http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Water-Tank-1000-litres-White_W0QQitemZ180075288302QQihZ008QQcategoryZ29522QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1000-LITRE-PLASTIC-WATER-TANK-AS-NEW_W0QQitemZ300068934156QQihZ020QQcategoryZ29522QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1000-LITRE-PLASTIC-WATER-TANK-AS-NEW_W0QQitemZ230077787609QQihZ013QQcategoryZ29522QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1000L-plastic-water-tank-with-galvanised-cage-as-new_W0QQitemZ270079645015QQihZ017QQcategoryZ29522QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And the list goes on.

To think that where we are used to be swamp and had drains put in to make it usable pasture, created one man made river and numerous channels, all still flowing straight into Westernport Bay.

[Stuart]

Found one place today - theirs are $375 new. (1000L pallet tank) More than I want to spend for the greywater system.

[Grunt]

Kilmore Pastoral has them $200, not so far from Res.

[Stuart]

That's getting much better!

[some_one]

Hi guys I went to my local hardware shop they had a rubber tube that they said you could use to divert grey water passing through the pipes staright to the garden. It is fitted through the inspection hole! can anyone explain if it works and how??

[Gumby]

Is that the one Bunnings have with a T-shape end which has 3 outlets ?

It looks pretty basic but it said something on the box about the 3 outlets preventing back pressure in the pipe. I assume the single one doesn't allow enough water through and it runs the risk of blocking the outflow.

They have rubber pipe (half inch i think) connected to them and the water just runs to where ever you end the pipe.

[some_one]

That is right and the same question came to my mind that if I fit it to the laundry outlet will be able to handle the flow from that machine or will it flow back into the room? Has anyone actually used it?? Because the store will say it will work but i need to be reassured!! also how will the inspection hole be fitted back once I install the flow pipe??
hummmmmmm:?

[Stuart]

Not likely to flow back into the room, but if there is too much backpressure, you can put more wear and tear on the washing machine pump.

That being said, if you are just taking it from the washing machine, why not take the outflow straight outside and collect it in a bin or a tub. You can drip feed from there, or bucket, or pump.

As to the inspection hole, it screws off, and on - there is no issue there.

[Stuart]

Here are the photos of what I have done.

I already have a sprinkler system in place, including the timing computers, so that isn't in the price.

I have spent about $350 on the pump, which gives mains pressure on demand (ie - you pull the trigger on the hose, the pressure drops and the pump turns itself on.) About $100 in fittings etc. And an old (free) rubbish bin.

You could couple this up to a weeper hose, or sprays, or I good ol' hose and sprinkler. I use a hose from this to water some trees.

Anyway, here goes:

1: The connection from the washing machine through a new hole I cut in the sink. Silicon around to stop water getting through the hole from the tap and under the sink

2: The connection under the sink into a larger diameter hose (Bunnings - $20 for 10m) There are some plumbing fittings inside, and a pipe clamp to hold it all together. Some duct tape, cause I like wasting duct tape. Oh, and more silicon.

3: The hose goes through a hole under the sink to under the house (or you could take it through the wall, depending on your property slope etc ), and then out into the top of the 'tank' The whole hose is downhill so there is no backpressure placed on the pump - using gravity as much as possible.

In the top of the tank I have screwed a downpipe header which has a leaf catcher inside. I have then wrapped a whole heap of a netting around that, and stuffed around the pipe to catch as much lint as possible. Don't want that wrecking my pump.

4: Here you can see the overflow going back to the stormwater, and the outlet from the bottom of the tank leading to the pump.

[Stuart]

5: The pump (bit hard to see), with output to a whole heap of spaghetti! I have an offtake just before the computers which I can plug in a hose. At the moment, I have a manual system which I have jury-rigged together where I can manually turn on which line I want to feed water down. Down track, when I have a low level switch that shuts down the pump, the feed will be automatic, through the two computers and the "octopus" valves which systematically feeds each watering line.

forgot to mention, the outlet from the tank has a second, fine inline filter to catch the last of the lint.

6: The sign in the front garden telling nosy neighbours to mind their own business.

7: Closeup of the sign (made with the router as seen in my signwriting video ;) )

Another hint - I rang SE Water, and had them put on my account that I use recycled water for the garden, for when they get complaints.

Anyway, there it is. I may make a video of it in time, but I've just found out that my baby's date of birth has been bought forward, and is now (suddenly) only a week away :o

[some_one]

That is all I can say,,,let me absorb all that has to be done...you have done a great deal of work ....Congr:U atulations.

[Gumby]

here's my effort.

I put in a 2200L tank and pump about 2 years ago.

The price of the tank has gone from $490 to over $600 since ! I'm getting another one to add to it soon and recently doubled the roof area which feeds it. It has a pump so the pressure from the hose is pretty good.

Great for the garden and cars. We put a sign at the front too. don't want anyone to think we are cheating.

The last pic shows the downpipe from the deck roof (laser lite) which just feeds a 120L storage container from Bunnings (cost $22 plus about $35 for the pipe etc). This water used to run off the deck roof and onto the lawn. Now we just bucket it out to the lemon tree and some of the garden.

[Groggy]

Hi guys I went to my local hardware shop they had a rubber tube that they said you could use to divert grey water passing through the pipes staright to the garden. It is fitted through the inspection hole! can anyone explain if it works and how??These type (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Grey-Water-Diverter-x2_W0QQitemZ220071212690QQihZ012QQcategoryZ29522QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) are easy to insert, remove the inspection plug and push it in. It is inserted far enough to block the exit pipe and collect all the waste water, which is routed to the garden. 99c should see you buying one.

There is another type here (http://www.enviro-friendly.com/greywater-diverter-valve.shtml).

[Stuart]

Point is, it is not hard. Mine took an evening to install (once I had worked out what I wanted to do, and bought the supplies that is!)

My sign took longer than the installation..... go figure!

Gumby's is more elaborate, but still, not that much harder (but took a bit longer too I daresay).

PVC is very easy - just need some of that organic solvent they sell as pipe glue (it melts the plastic together, and is a form of cold plstic welding.), the tubes, fittings etc and a hacksaw! (And a weekend or so I guess ;) )

[rsser]

That's it some_one. The cone goes into the hole when you screw off the inspection cover of the PVC pipe outlet on the outer wall and it's supposed to divert the water to a hose attached to the cone. (You don't use the cone directly under your washer outlet pipe.)

Last time we had a drought I tried it and it leaked and p*ssed grey water all over the place. Gave it up as a bad joke. Maybe the current crop are better.

My solution uses an extension hose that you fix to the washer outlet pipe. Bunnings usually stock them; some Safeways/Woolworths and some Mitre 10's stock them too. I wasn't fussed about the look so I ran the now extended hose over the tap behind the washer and then through a hole in the floor and out the side of the house.

Thanks for the pics Stuart.

[Stuart]

Welcome :)

Just sitting outside at the moment, watching another couple hundred litres of washing machine water spray over the lawn and gardens :)

[some_one]

Yes this is the tube I was talking about. But as it says in the advert it is ideal for baths and low volume water flow for the laundry I will go with the other option..Also the house is not very high off the ground so storing it in a high sitting tank will not be possible..:) Other wise i'll just let it divert straight to the back yard..Thanks guys.:)

[totoblue]

Someone asked about tanks built on site. Here is some info.
http://groups.google.com.au/group/melb.general/msg/577599533908104

I've got a grey water diversion system set up. It is pretty cheap.

I read a US website which suggested that complicated systems using pumps, drippers, irrigation valves etc are likely to clog up or corrode. I was thinking of doing a fancy grey water system but this site put me off that idea. The only complexity they think is worth it is to have a surge tank (a tank to hold an excess water beyond the flow rate of the pipe to the garden).
See http://greywater.net/

My grey water system consists of one of those rubber funnels stuck through the inspection hatch of the shower outlet. This goes into 19mm irrigation hose down to the front garden where it goes into that corrugated grey water hose. The rubber funnel is a bit of a bugger to get in - in the end I greased it with detergent so I could push it in up to the tab. I have not had any leaks with the funnel. The drain in the shower burbles a bit sometimes but there is no backflow. The end of the hose gets moved (by me) around the garden and I run the end into a 2m piece of black plastic ag drain I had left over (to spread the flow out a bit). This cost about $25 for the corrugated grey water hose and the funnel.

The washing machine goes through the floor using 30m of that corrugated grey water hose. We had a "drain" in our laundry's timber floor which just goes under the house, so I unscrewed the grate and ran the hose through that hole. The 30m of hose I think is too long (might strain the washing machine) so I plan to put in some 50mm drain pipe running from the laundry to the garden and then use the corrugated hose from there. Even though the slope of the ground is approximately downhill, water still collects in any dip in the corrugated hose. Personally I don't think the washing machine is worth the bother (the shower produces much more water with less pollutants) but my wife wants that extra water.

I've seen pumps for sale on ebay which they claim are for grey water as they can handle solids up to such and such size. Two hundred and something dollars. I'd like to know how they handle hairs which could get wrapped around the shaft.

Our back yard is higher than any source of grey water so all our grey water goes into the front yard. It is also higher than our rain water tank so we need a pump.

We've also got a slim line rainwater tank (1200l) and a pump. The tank has only just now got some water in it with the recent rains. The pump is one of those ebay jobs I got for $60 odd and I thought it was dead for a while (just after 6 month warranty ran out) but when I pulled it apart it proved to be blocked with a rust flake (cast iron housing and brass impeller) and it seems to be working now, so I will be able to water the back yard. However the tank with a head of less than 60cm has more than enough pressure to run one of those leaky rubber dripper hoses without a pump (ok for front yard).

One thing about rain tanks is that it seems to take 1mm of rain to wet our tiled roof enough to get any run off. We are going to put another tank on the garage which has a tin roof and I think it will take a lot less to wet that roof.

If you lookup ferrocement on wikipedia there is a link to how to build your own ferrocement tank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement

[some_one]

I heard that you can get subsidy of upto $1000 if you have a grey water tank installed that goes into your flushing system or something like that, but it has to be installed by a licensed plumber, I guess how much will a plumber charge to do that changeover?:?

[rsser]

In Vic there are some rebates for rainwater tanks that vary acc to tank size and whether connected to the laundry. They end the end of June.

Something like $150 for tank, and between 500 and 1000 depending on tank size if connected to the laundry/toilet.

[Gumby]

In Vic there are some rebates for rainwater tanks that vary acc to tank size and whether connected to the laundry. They end the end of June.

Something like $150 for tank, and between 500 and 1000 depending on tank size if connected to the laundry/toilet.

Which are a complete waste of time because you have to have a plumber install the tank before you get the reabte. It's cheaper and better to do it yourself, save the plumber's fees and forget the rebate (and that way, they don't know you have a tank either):D

[rsser]

Yeah, well I'd plumb mine myself, but if you wanted to stay legal you need a certificate.

[Gumby]

Yeah, well I'd plumb mine myself, but if you wanted to stay legal you need a certificate.

Staying legal would probably mean a council permit as well. After my last experience with such an inefficient, over bloated, red tape crazy bureaucratic bunch of tossers, forget it. :U

[zathras]

Staying legal would probably mean a council permit as well. After my last experience with such an inefficient, over bloated, red tape crazy bureaucratic bunch of tossers, forget it. :U

Yeah, like a $440 standard building permit fee irrespective of project's cost.

Tossers most certainly.

[rsser]

If you're building a stand I think you need a permit; not if you're putting the tank on packed sand.

[rhancock]

I've only just found this thread so my post is a little late. I installed 3 x 1000l ex vanilla flavouring tanks as rainwater tanks about 2 years ago and they've proved to be fantastic. They cost about $200 each and I put in 3 to get the council rebate, by the time I paid for delivery I got back the $750 which was the max the council would do at the time. Because they're 3 units I was able to reconfigure them when I renovated under our Queenslander. I wasn't going to post photos until I've built my first workbench, but I'll take photos of the tanks and associated plumbing asap. The best thing about 1k tanks is that you can store stuff on top of them - currently a toilet and pedestal basin, xmas decorations etc! I have had a bit of fun linking them up - I'm a carpenter not a plumber! -but they work ok now. Torrential rain on Thursday night harvested about 2,200 litres - and thats after losing some down the overflow as the linking pipes couldn't keep up. I plan to add an extra inlet to fix that, when I have a spare hour or two.

I'll be working on grey water systems this winter so I'll keep you informed of progress there too.

[rhancock]

Oh.. an extra note on council regs - I had to submit photos of the connection to the storm water to get the rebate so I dutifully connected it all up and took the photos. First big storm and the storm water connections gushing water all over the place - must have been blocked up for years! So I disconnected it again, and it's currently just spread around in some spare slotted ag pipe spread out along the fence - one day I'll pipe it out to a bog / sump in the front yard.

Of course 3000 litres doesn't last long when we don't get any rain between Easter and October, hence the need for a grey water system. If I'd realised that 2 years ago I'd have done grey water first.

[rsser]

Good point rhancock.

Heard a guy on ABC radio say the min tank size should be 5000 l. Clearly it depends also these days on rain intervals as well as annual averages and usage intervals and rates.

As for permits, I expect they're going to vary by shire or municipality as well as state. Down here you can't even replace your gutters or downpipes unless you're a licensed plumber.

[some_one]

I recently went to a local hardware store, where they had a fancy diagram about various filter that go before water goes into a rain water tank, how important are those things??:?

[rhancock]

I recently went to a local hardware store, where they had a fancy diagram about various filter that go before water goes into a rain water tank, how important are those things??:?

Depends on what sort of sh*t lands on your roof... in short - if you've got trees dropping leaves on the roof, then you need a)gutter guard b)leafeaters; if you've got animals of just about any sort, then you need a first flush diverter of some sort (There are the commercial ones, and then there are the 'build your own').

It also depends on what you're using it for. I only water the garden with mine, so as long as it doesn't jam the pump I'm happy, whereas my brother feeds his to his 1 year old son, so he's got the whole works, and still boils it or puts it through a filter jug before he drinks it.


Some_one, what are you using the water for? What sort of roof do you have? how many downpipes feed the tanks? What is likely to land on your roof?

[Stuart]

Quick update - have now found a couple of pallet tanks for $80 each - that's the sort of price that is reasonable for 1000L (x2!) Hope the deal goes through ok :)

My grass is looking very green these days - had to mow it today, was getting way too long!

[some_one]

Can you share the source of those cheap tanks?:oo: :o

[Stuart]

Friend of a friend, but I'll check (once I get mine :D) if there are more available for forum members.

[bricks]

yeah im a plumber some of the stuff in this post is pretty dangerous,

Heres a few tips,
Do not let any waste water stagnate for too long it can attract vermin, insects and even kill you.

Do not connect the washing machine to the extension hoses they sell at bunnings , some NOT ALL washing machines will burn out the pump alot faster if it is overloaded by having too much length. instead connect the hose to the outlet of your laundry sink so that it drains away properly.No point breaking your perfectly good washing machine is there.

The reason your installation needs to be inspected is because it is HUMAN WASTE and if your soaking area is too small then you can present a significant health risk to those around you. You need at least 200 sqaure meters of area to soak,
Do not let small childeren play on the soakage area for shower, bath or kitchen sinks, at all ever FULL STOP,
If the water in the pipes does not empty compleatly every time it is used you may as well have just left it in a bucket it is just as dangerous as stagnant water.

In most areas rain water and stormwater can be done by you as they are not plumbing systems they are included in the building code, however you need a plumber if you connect it into your sytem because you may backflow into the mains under certain circumstances,

Im not here to give you guys a headache, but many think they know better but dont, ill start a new post for you to ask questions to a liscenced trades man, however if its not good for you to do it be prepared for me to tell you so.

Have fun,

[rsser]

Thanks for the heads-up Rhett.

[Mattsplatt]

Hi Guys,

Have followed with great interest! I too have done something along the lines that Stuart has done with his grey water system (nowhere near as intricate).

As my 'storage' bin is above the level of the whole block, I only used a cheap pond pump as I didn't have to worry about pumping up hill (head). Clogged the inbuilt filter after a few weeks though! In the process of creating a pre filter system similar to Stuart's!

Would recommend, if you can do it with you washing machine, is to only catch the final rinse as the first rinse is mega full of lint, detergent etc! Bit of mucking around but I think worth it long term.

Also check out "Euca" detergents - very low sodium and phosphorus. http://www.lightningcleans.com.au/index.html

I am about to get my 14000 litre tank in from a plumber mate, but I do have a bit room to put it - only a 3m diameter foot print. Main purpose for us is to keep the vege garden etc alive and kicking through the hotter months, and I will look at plumbing into the house as well for the loo and washing machine etc.

Great thread! Thanks for all the thought and input on this very important topic!:2tsup:

[some_one]

Stuart was going to let forum members know if there were more tanks? Humm did I miss something?:D :?

[Clinton1]

those cage tanks are sold at:

A & R Recycling Pty Ltd
1485 Hume Hwy Campbellfield VIC 3061
ph: (03) 9357 2900,

on the Hum highway just up from the Western Ring Road crossover.

Second hand so the price is pretty cheap, but I forget the exact price.