The end of an era in F1

[Stuart]

Not everyone is a fan, (I am), but it is a sad day when Michael Schumacher declares he is retiring from Formula 1 at the end of the season.

Don't think the decision has been finalised, but I think it is very unlikely that we will see the 7 times World Champion racing next year.

I know many do not like Michael for some of his very questionable antics, but few will doubt that he has been one of the greatest drivers of all time, breaking every record in the F1.

It is going to feel very strange, a Formula 1 without him. (We had a taste of it a few years ago, after the accident where he went head first into a tyre barrier and missed much of the season).

Do your fans a favour Michael - win your 8th season before you go!

[Flowboy]

Where's Sterling Moss when you need him?

[Bushmiller]

Stuart

While Schumacker is one of the great talents of the last twenty years I don't know that he is greatest. There is clearly some debate as to whether Senna was better and also whether at least some of Schumacher's successes were due to an infinitely better car and a team hierachy that drove absolutely to orders.

But he is not someone I can admire. I confess I have not followed F1 in recent years as it has lacked appeal for me, but every time I looked up it seemed like Schumacher was forcing somebody off the track and his driving tactics were controversial to put it euphemistically.

My heroes are modest, humble people who are successful despite their humility. I doubt that Schumacher has a gratuitous bone in his body.

Now if we are considering all-time greats surely Juan Manuel Fangio and Jim Clark stand head and shoulders above the rest.

Schumacher is the ultimate product of a cut throat industry whose motto is to win at absolutely any cost. He had become their creature.

No. Micheal Schumacher can retire and with luck he will disappear into obscurity.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Where's Sterling Moss when you need him?

Probably breaking cars. He used to make a habit of that.

Regards
Paul

[meerkat]

I agree with bushmiller.

I don't really remember too many before senna, but that man had a true gift, he could dance a car around corners like no other. Unlike others that make their competitors cars dance off the track.:D

Like any sport the question of who the greatest is will always be in debate.

Michael had talent, skill but really how much did the car/team have to do with the wins ? A lot I think.

Now some of the other talent in the sport will have the opportunity to shine.

[sliver]

I missed the F1 qualifying today, so did not hear the news. While I have respect for michael's acheivements, I will never for give him for side-swiping Damon Hill off the road to get to the front. Win at ANY cost has been said. OH, & 'I'll just make the most of hitting this barrier at Monaco to stop a Spaniard qualifying higher up the grid than me'. Not a fan of his, but respect for his success just the same.

Cheers, Sliver.

[Studley 2436]

OUCH

People sticking up for Senna as a guy who didn't bounce other cars into the barriers???????


MY GOD HE IS THE GUY THAT INVENTED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times he just had pole and then drove across the car alongside him into the first bend and half the field was crashed out????????

Schumacher grew up watching this and must have figured that's how you win in F1

He is a product of the system. Silly fuel stops and tactics that bring the advisors and managers into it more and more. F1 has been an engineers formula for as long as I have known it (since 1980 when Jones won and we discovered it in Oz). If you really want to clean it up and get good racing back you can do it easy.

Ban Radios Telemetry auto clutching gearboxes Carbon Fibre Brakes and most of those aero aids too. Give them a choice you keep your wings or your sidepods.

As another thing they should introduce a rev limiter, knock them back to something like 12000RPM

The best teams will still be the best teams but a good driver in a lesser car will have a chance to show what he has got. Most of all there will be passing on the track. Making them soften the cars up a bit would be useful too.

Talking about best cars and Schumacher, the best driver always has the best car. The reason is he is the best driver and his contribution to producing the best car is very important. Witness Prost and Senna. Senna always used Prost's setup because he couldn't do it as well. Prost left the team and McLaren fell back to the middle of the field with Senna driving. Senna goes to Williams and they were falling back almost immediately. Schumacher was all over him in a Benetton!!!! A team no one had previously considered as being anything worth considering at all.

Schumacher is a great tallent but to judge him for the selfishness in the way he drove we judge ourselves. In particular Damon Hill drove into the back of Schumacher. Hill should have realised you don't make up 20 seconds like that unless something has happened. Instead of a desparate lunge into Schumacher who was blocking but that is all Hill should have kept his car on the track. After all no matter what happened that day he had to finish no matter what. You can't blame Schumacher for Hill being dumb.

Studley

[dazzler]

Wouldnt it have been great to have seen such a great driver actually RACE not just pilot a slot car.

Would have loved to have seen him race in the 60's and 70's. :D

[Auld Bassoon]

Michael has clearly been an outstanding driver over the years. I remember his first outing at Spa before he joined Benetton, and it was obvious even then that a star was in the making.

To see what a realy good driver can do, look at one in the rain. In poor conditions Michael shines - just like Ayreton did a decade ago. (Anyone remember Donington in the wet and Ayreton?)

Quite why he has done some of the things that he has (Adelaide GP against Hill, Spanish GP against Villeneuve, plus a few other notable incidents) is something that only he can really comment on.

However, if one looks at his record (number of poles, fastest laps, wins, and above all championships), one cannot fail to admire the man.

Personally, I think he sees in young Fernando much of what he himself was (and has tantamount to said so), so in his dotage (36?), he's getting out while still a formidable racer.

Lastly: the championship isn't over yet for '06, and he's close - very close to Fernando. I for one wouldn't rule him out just yet for an 8th title.

[sliver]

Hi Studley,
You may be right about the Hill/Schumacher incident in question. My memory may be selective in favour of an English driver. There was more than the one incident though, maybe Damon should have learned from the earlier ones that Schuey don't get out the way easy. Senna! Truly a gifted driver, as Meerkat said, but he was another man who had the 'end justifies the means' mindset. His death was a sad end to a career that would have brought more world titles for certain. As for driving deliberately into Alain Prost, you can't argue that one down cos he later admitted it. He should have had points lifted & race bans in my view.

F1 is dangerous enough without inviting disaster. That said, they don't get to that level of ANY sport without lots of talent......All of them, being able to think fast enough in those situations is a marvel in itself. I need 10 minutes to think about putting me socks on these days:p

Cheers, Sliver;)

[Studley 2436]

cheers Sliver

Would have been fair if Senna lost all his points for that one. The FIA should have really come down hard on him. I remember at the time Nigel Roebuck reporting that Senna went all the way into Prost without lifting his foot.

Anyway we live in a corrupt and sad world, and sportsmanship is an act they put on so the great unwashed masses will throw more money at them.

On another point Peter aka Perfect Brock died on friday. He was at the historic meet in GB last week perhaps at Goodwood, came back to race in a road targa style event and was killed in a crash. Sad sad day for Australian motor sport.

Studley

[Schtoo]

It's about time dagnabbit.

I will not miss it in F1 for a nanosecond.

It is a very good driver, as is fairly obvious and I can respect that, but as a gentleman, maybe half a step above pond scum and as much personality as a busted crab.

Senna wasn't a great deal different, a great driver but not exactly a gentleman. At least he had some kind of personality, however warped it might have been.

Alonso is alright, a bit of enthusiasm and a good driver to boot. Pretty clean from what I understand, which is a bonus.

Button isn't too bad either. Maybe a nutcase, but he can drive and he is interesting off the track as well.


Oh well, at least something interesting might start to happen, but based on the F1 rule makers, that's unlikely for a long time. What kinda of nincompoops desire closer racing and overtaking, and go ahead and reduce mechanical grip?!?

[Stuart]

I have no doubt if you want to pit one driver against another, then give them standardised cars. The modern formula 1 is a total package - cars, aero package, tyres, engines, driver, pit crew, strategy. Any one of them can #### up your race completely. Look at last year - tyres were very much a major influence on performance, no matter how good the rest of the package was.

This year it is very much closer, but interesting the drop in finishing performance of the Renaults once they removed their mass dampeners. I'm sure they will compensate - improved rubber, and/or aero etc etc.

Schumacher is not the only aggressive driver out there, and yes, as a big Schumacher fan I am quite willing to say he crosses the line sometimes in a major way. But if you were a Formula 1 fan, watching every race, you would see that these events are few and far between, and the majority of the races are done by nailing apexes, good pitstops, good rubber, etc etc (and this is true for every team).

Steve makes a very good point - to sort the men from the boys, have a wet race. The top drivers shine, irrespective of package (and a substandard car will often win when it has the best drivers). I've seen Schumacher race in wet conditions, on tyres that no other driver would dare use, let alone survive even one lap on, and have him win because he was on slicks in the rain, and did not have to waste a pitstop changing back to slicks as the track dried.

Alonso may be the championship leader at the moment, and the reining champion from last year, but i'm not sure that he is of the same calibre, and this shows up when the Renault package isn't all together. Drivers such as Raikkonen, Button and dare I say Webber may come through as the next true champions of the sport. Give them a good package (and not the crap Webber has had to drive with so far this year - you can't win races if your car can't go the race distance), and let's see who takes over Michael's crown.

BTW - I welcome the change to a control tyre, and I love the new qualifying format. Bring back full slicks!

[Bushmiller]

This year it is very much closer, but interesting the drop in finishing performance of the Renaults once they removed their mass dampeners.

I had to do a search on mass dampeners. As I have mentioned, I have only a passing interest in F1 nowadays. It seems nothing much has changed in that manufacturers are continually striving for an advantage over their rivals.

So it should be too. This is how development occurs. The argument for racing has always be that the progress flows on to the cars we drive on the roads every day. Not that I am suggesting the next series of Falcon and Commodore offerings will have mass dampers, high-wing, adjustable aerofoils and various other state of the art appendages.

In the days when I was interested in such things :rolleyes: there were a couple of very enterprising lads in the States by the names of Jim Hall and Hap Sharp, who combined their resources to build the highly successful Chaparral cars. This was back in the mid sixties. I think they were a little like Rolls and Royce in that Hall had the knowhow and Sharp had the money and was a driver to boot.

Anyhow, they did a few different automotive things. Firstly their cars were a two speed automatic. That was OK with the authorities. Not too radical.

Then they developed the front and rear aerofoil. Indeed they were the pioneers of what graces every race car today. These early aerofoils were three feet or more above the car and gave them a tremendous grip advantage because of the downwards forces. Needless to say the rivals were quick to follow suit and the Chaparral's competitive edge was eroded. Soon after that, the high aerofoils were banned (probably rightly so as there were instances of them breaking).

So it was back to the drawing board to achieve the competitive edge. They came up with the GEV (Ground Effects Vehicle). In essence it was a hovercraft in reverse. Switch on the fan at the entry to a corner and turn off out of the exit as the car straightened up. The vehicle hugged the ground through the corners like an echidna and was perhaps up to half as fast again as the rivals, which compensated for the extra weight.

The cars were significantly quicker than anything else around because of their enhanced cornering ability.

The authorities banned inverted hovercraft for the following season.

Hall and Sharp packed up their bags and went home. A fertile development source effectively stiffled probably in no small way assisited by covert lobbying by the major players behind the scenes.

I wonder what else they would have dreamt up if they had been allowed a free rein.

By the way. Good to see that despite your admiration, you are not blinkered regarding Michael Schumacher. There is I suppose still an affinity with the bad boys of sport. John McInroe (probably the best tennis commentator ever), Muhammed Ali (he wasn't an icon in his early days particularly when he was still Cassius Clay), Shane Warne, Anthony Mundine etc...... the list goes on.

Regards
Paul

[rrich]

Stuart

I doubt that Schumacher has a gratuitous bone in his body.

Paul

How many millions did Schumacher donate to quake and tsunami relief?


It's OK if you aren't a fan, but it isn't necessary to trash the man just because you don't like him.

[Studley 2436]

I read in the paper yesterday about what various others including Stirling Moss were saying. Wasn't sure and I really don't know myself where I stand on it all. Schumacher did make a rough choppy block on Hill but Hill tried to pass when he should have been thinking I can't have caught up 20 seconds in two corners unless he hit the wall.

When Schumacher drove into Villeneuve he deserved and got severe punishment.

The thing on the plus side is that he has been the one and only for how many years. Prost had Senna, before that there were various such as Piquet, Rossberg and Jones who won championships. There were several on that top tier of F1 until Senna arrived and then only Prost could be regarded on the same level. When one driver can be that much better for that much longer he has to be on that top level. I notice too that Schumacher has been able to win in a car that is not the best one out there. Senna could never do that, Prost could, Stewart could, Clark could. So Schumacher has to be on the short list of greats.

Moss did say Senna was a fair and sporting driver which made me laugh after all the cars Senna ran off. He used to in fact if you slipstreamed past him veer over when you were half way past. He had no qualms about it and the FIA let him get away with it. It is completely natural then that Schumacher drove as he did. He learnt it from Senna and the FIA sanctioned it. If you want to blame someone blame the FIA


Very likely Aerodynamics are the big thing that has to be done over to improve the racing. Like get rid of front end splitters turned up undertrays. Barge Boards should go and so should fuel stops. and if they go back to the old 220 litre fuel tanks then the cars will lose a lot of Aero efficiency. What about all those winglets should ditch them too.

Studley

[Christopha]

I watched about 20 minutes of the GP at the weekend, can't remember where, oh yeah Monza, I kept thinking that the only thing left to do for the final safety reason..... and it wouldn't detract from the current spectacle at all..... would be to put the drivers in the pits with a telly and a joystick..... boring as batschit.
Good riddance to Schumacher and all of his ilk. we want no helmets, skinny wheels, rear wheel drum brakes only, no seat belts, 15 litre pushrod engines and no armco!

[Studley 2436]

Actually if they make them go back to cast iron discs that will really do some good for the racing.

Studley

[Auld Bassoon]

Talking abour cars rather than drivers for a moment, imagine the fun if something akin to the pre-WWII 650Kg formula was (re) introduced? 650Kg min weight, 4 wheels - and anything else is totally open. Whoo Hoo!

Anybody remember that fantastic wheel-banging give-no-quarter battle between Renee Arnoux and Gille Villeneuve in 1979 and the French GP at Dijon? see this (http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/Gilles/index.html) Crappy video quality - but spectacular all the same...

[sliver]

Talking abour cars rather than drivers for a moment, imagine the fun if something akin to the pre-WWII 650Kg formula was (re) introduced? 650Kg min weight, 4 wheels - and anything else is totally open. Whoo Hoo!

Anybody remember that fantastic wheel-banging give-no-quarter battle between Renee Arnoux and Gille Villeneuve in 1979 and the French GP at Dijon? see this (http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/Gilles/index.html) Crappy video quality - but spectacular all the same...

Remember it well. Rene & Gilles were good friends & they watched the video back afterwards. They were falling about laughing at each others antics. 'You maniac! you nearly killed me with that move.' 'Yes, but look at what you just did there, you're crazy!!' These days there would be enquiries from the stewards, public character bashing in the press & all the other stuff.
Not saying it wasn't dangerous....Quite the opposite, but the drivers concerned trusted each other without question. God bless you both for the race of the century. Rene arnoux is still with us & racing in Grand Prix masters, Gilles is now long gone (May 1982) but never EVER forgotten.
I advise a search: Grand Prix Masters. 70's spec F1 cars & drivers. Enjoy.

Cheers, Sliver.:) ;)