No furniture, no Quokka but lots o'paper

[Red_B']

G'day,
This pic is of a WA Jarrah log that a Tasmanian company will chip. So I guess that's why we pay big money for fine furniture timbers and stuff all for copy paper. Not only that, the removal of this timber destroys the habitat of the Quokka.
There's a thread of evil out there, me thinks.

[Lignum]

How do you know that log is going to be chipped? And their arnt to many Quokkas on the mainland as most are on Rotto. I know their are some around Dwellingup Collie and Harvey and unless they are going to log large amounts in those areas i think the Quokka wont be homeless. Maybe some of our WA members can let us know if tey are going to log in those areas?
That log would look so nice all sliced and stacked in my shed:o

[BobL]

I can smell the distinct odour of bul$lHT! , I have never seen quokka's anywhere near Jarrah.

While this doesn't mean I want any more Jarrah pulped for paper I also personally don't like quokka's, they're flea ridden, smell and have no personality at all. They are fine where they are on Rotto.

[coastie]

Is that the log out of Kings Park ??:D

[Ramps]

G'day,
This pic is of a WA Jarrah log that a Tasmanian company will chip. So I guess that's why we pay big money for fine furniture timbers and stuff all for copy paper. Not only that, the removal of this timber destroys the habitat of the Quokka.
There's a thread of evil out there, me thinks.

Oh no It's a flying quokka that nests in trees

Well said Lignum

Firstly this is shooting from the hip ... where are you getting your "information" from.

Secondly quality logs go primarily as timber ...can't give you the prices at the moment but I can assure you the loggers get much more money for 1st and 2nd (and even 3rd class) logs than for pulp logs. ...Doesn't quite make sense that a quality log would go to chip.

Thirdly yes Quokkas are found on the mainland in some areas but very little of the area of Jarrah country (hence q1.) ... it's a good thing quokkas don't get off the ground and live up trees:D in fact they prefer grassy areas in open woodland ... looks like they've created a little more "open" woodland:p and yes they are in numbers that out of proportion on Rotto.

Fourthly I'm glad it's a WA Jarrah log because if it wasn't from WA it wouldn't be jarrah (at least not of that size).

I have got a green bent but I'm also a woodworker and what I really dislike half-cocked remarks like this ... let's get all the facts please. Be very careful if you want to be a woodworker at all! Feel free to ask for facts ... this is not a good way to do it.

There is a lot of jarrah sitting in sheds at mills over this side of the world if people want to pay the price ... they have trouble getting costs back for half of it. Costs are increasing with fuel costs, increasing distance between harvestable logs ... by the time seed trees, habitat trees, etc are marked for preservation ... they've learnt a lot in 150 years of harvesting ... a little before it's too late ... as per most parts of inland Victoria.

I have seen literally tons of jarrah from houses (good clear roofing timber) go down the tip because the salvage yards (that buy it for $1/m) can't sell the stuff ... what's happening guys? Don't we want to put a little time in pulling a few nails and run a metal detector over the timber?

[Red_B']

There are a few areas with Quokka on the mainland and most of their habitat is threatened. The pictured log is in the Arcadia forest (South-East of Donnybrook) which is going to be chipped. I will try to attach a GoogleEarth link in my next post.

[Ramps]

Arrh yes there has been a lot of media wrt this area recently

now will you please post a photo of a Quokka from the Arcadia block please as no one I know has seen quokka or signs of them in the area for harvest and how sure are you that the intent of harvest is for paper pulp?? If it is, is it to put it to some use before the land is utilised for obtaining the source of your aluminium windows prehaps??

Still more info please ... a source perhaps??

[Lignum]

The pictured log is in the Arcadia forest (South-East of Donnybrook) which is going to be chipped.


Ahhhh yes i remember that Quokka, isnt it the one who lives under the Big Apple:rolleyes:

Oh and tell me Red, have you ever been in the forests of the South West or have you picked all this info up from some newspaper or web site?

[Waldo]

G'day,

Felling a tree like that is equal to terrorism in my book. :(

[Ramps]

Just reading the "poll" at the start of this thread ...

Please give me a solution

What do we do with sub grade (like less than 3rd grade) logs that have been cleared due to mining operations?:confused:

I think the economical choices at the moment are a) burn it on the spot:mad: b) allow firewood cutters (commercial or private) to come and get it:eek: or c) chip it for paper:( .

I think to prevent it being chipped and to prevent all those people from stomping thru pristine habitat country it should be piled up and burnt:rolleyes: .... shall I put a poll up:D

[Lignum]

I think the chick in the pic is awsome, looks like she has managed to cut it down with just a shovel;)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Have there been any surveys to show just how much paper quokkas use? Or how many have shares in APM? How do you know that stopping chipping wouldn't be forcing them into insolvency, thus contributing to a rash of quokkas jumping from office blocks?

Don't give me any of this "everyone knows..." or "it stands to reason" muck. They're just a cheap debating trick and I don't want arguments, I want cold, hard facts. ;)

[Waldo]

G'day Skew,

I did a Google and found documented evidence that Quokkas do jump from office buildings in the protest of their homes being chopped down by women with shovels.

If you look really hard you'll see the quokka, I've highlighted the poor bloke with an arrow for those vision-impaired-can't-see-a-damn-thing-in-front-of-them-persons

Serious.

However, I found that lemmings jumping from cliffs is a myth. (shrug)







(My previous post had a refernce to a troll, but that got deleted :confused: )

[Shedhand]

Yet another reader of Dr Bob's book of Lies, Lies and more Lies.

Tell us your scientific sources. I know a bit about forestry and I don't think there are many native timber species less suitable for paper production than Jarrah. Tasmania has a timber called Myrtle that is dense and red. It is separated from pulp wood stock at source because it is NOT suitable for paper production. Instead it is sold as craftwood and peeled for veneer.

So don't come in here spouting your misguided rhetoric simply because Dr Bob said so.

I just finished an extension to my home and all the framing ws Eco Ash (plantation grown). If I remember correctly Dr Bob was dead against plantation forestry. This type of forestry was developed to reduce our reliance on native forests. Can't work you lot (tree huggers) out. You seem awfully confused...poor petals.

Anyway, post a pic of your woodwork projects or something relevent to this forum otherwise go back to your mung beans and bong. :mad::mad::mad:

[Ramps]

If you look really hard you'll see the quokka, I've highlighted the poor bloke with an arrow for those vision-impaired-can't-see-a-damn-thing-in-front-of-them-persons


I can See it! I can see it ... just like the one I saw in Arcadia forest just yesterday ... I told you so.:p

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

(My previous post had a refernce to a troll, but that got deleted :confused: )

I suspect that trolls are a myth, too. According to all the references I've come across, they have a thing for billy goats. The description would seemingly fit a well known resident of these fora, were it not for the fact that foil isn't mentioned.

He's incognito, perhaps? :confused:

[rodm]

Red_B
Removal of any tree or even a weed from your yard destroys a habitat for something.

If you want to point fingers then think about how many ants and other small creatures (and their habitats) you destroyed when you walked around today.

Best to stick to the concrete and watch every step you make so you can sleep with a clear consious tomorrow night.

[Red_B']

G’day, Some of you asked for more info’………….
Coastie: Good one, no, it's out of Arcadia Forest. Haha, is King’s Park a Bot’Garden?
The comments I’ve put here are merely formed in response to the way some members have ungraciously “treated my first post” (pun intended).
BobL: I’ve never cuddled a quokka so I defer to your personal familiarity with them.
Ramps: You’re totally incorrect about quokkas’ preferred habitat; it is not as you say. They live in fairly dense undergrowth. I’ve never to been to Rottnest Island but its quokka are genetically different to the mainland’s and for all I know may live in the open as you (off the hip) say.
Lignum: No, I’ve not been to these old growth forests.
Lignum: The “chick” in the photo is my cousin with a walking stick (due to loss of most of her foot) not a shovel. She also has chronic fatigue syndrome which even you would not wish on anyone if you knew all its inherent problems.
I did make an error as to the fate of the log: it, along with 150,000 Tonnes PER YEAR of other Jarrah logs, will be turned to charcoal by a Japanese company for their silicon chip industry. Another 150,000 Tonnes will go as sawlogs, not chips - Sorry.
200,000 to 250,000 Tonnes PER YEAR of Karri will be cut from old growth forests and go to PULP and it’s that timber I’ve confused with Jarrah. Quokka live in Karri forests also and are losing that habitat.
Shedhand is right when he says Jarrah is not much good for paper products – my error as I said but I didn’t get any of my info’ from your friend Dr.Bob. Why did you bring him into it?
None of the above logging will come from plantation trees.
To “harvest” something you have to plant it first (look the word up). Any other use of the word is prevarication on the part of the user.
I’m not a tree hugger by any means; I promote timber being used for construction and timber-craft but I am disappointed so much old growth forest will be destroyed and more so as it will not be replanted.
I’ve used some beautiful timbers in pattern-making and carpentry; some we probably can’t get now I’m ashamed to say.
I’m also disappointed at how far some fiddle-backed brains have taken this thread and made some quite irrational and erroneous assertions. Lies Shedhand? Rhetoric? Yes, I made an error on the Jarrah’s fate but it’s still going to be cleared and that means a protected species will probably be lost to several areas.
Oh yeah, and all the WA community gets is $5 per Tonne as a royalty for the 150,000 Tonnes per annum but it/we couldn’t buy a metre for $5. (the $5/Tonne is a maximum and tied to fluctuations in the price of silicon substrate which, like petrol, gets manipulated).
Definition: Lignum, secondary thickening on the stem – Better take your hands off it, eh Mate?
RodM: Ants? Get real, crikey that was a lame statement. Ants? Put the shellac down and go with the grain.
There are plans for at least two charcoal producing plants in Australia so there's more "Greenhouse Debt": it’ll be interesting to see what they feed into them. Japan by the way, uses virtually none of its own forests for charcoal or pulp, let alone firewood.
Too many people in here with knotholes for eyes and ears.
I get and appreciate humour and enjoy a good debate but not ill-informed drivel.
Cheers back to you.

[Lignum]

Definition: Lignum, secondary thickening on the stem – Better take your hands off it, eh Mate?

I think your the one who should take his hand of it and stop playing with yourself and get your facts straight




Too many people in here with knotholes for eyes and ears.
I get and appreciate humour and enjoy a good debate but not ill-informed drivel.


:p

[Shedhand]

G'day Red
200-250k tonnes of Karri being logged from old growth forests for pulp. Selective logging it's called. Some is selected for sawlog, some for veneer flitch and some for pulp. This is whats known as sustainable forestry. The Australian Forest Industry is regulated by the Forestry Code of Practice unlike many other countries where forests are plundered without any controls whatsoever. What people like you are advocating is the closure of our highly regulated, sustainable forest industry and the import replacement from the fast disappearing forests of south and central america and south east asia.

Yes, the royalties AND prices for our export pulp is low however you have to remember that we are competing in a ruthless market. If we ask too high a price for our pulp then foreign processors will simply buy elsewhere...Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam etc..

The quokka may be under threat but in those countries whole populations of rare and threatened species are displaced by the unfettered harvesting of forest habitats. In fact, whole populations of humans are displaced by these practices as well.

Its refreshing to find a greenie who admits to making a mistake let one who apologises for doing so.

Three things though. You still haven't told us the scientific basis for your comments.

I brought Dr Bob into the thread because he is the font of all the baseless, extremist rhetoric spouted by the green fraternity on this issue.
and thirdly, show us some of your woodwork so we can praise you for something positive.

cheers back again!

[robbiewy]

This is getting to heavy time for a quick joke.
<o></o>
Dr Bob went to his GP with a large splinter in his butt.
The GP had a look and said that’s massive but I can’t take it out.
Dr Bob. It really hurts rip it out.
GP. I can’t.
Dr Bob. Why not?
GP. It’s illegal to remove timber from a recreational area.:D:D

[Lignum]

That will teach him a valuable lesson for the impropper use of a baseball bat:eek:

[Ramps]

Red_B , Thanks for straightening out some of your mis-information I'd still like some more info, distribution of mainland Quokkas

Like shedhand said

They don't go into these areas to harvest (to gather ripened crop ... Collins Concise Dictionary)charcoal wood or pulpwood that is the reject pieces that don't make saw grade logs. Most of the charcoal wood I have seen is dead dried (often fallen) timber as drying grren timber before making charcoal is a real PITA.

As far as habitat Like you said the quokkas like undergrowth ... unless they're very young Jarrah doesn't form an undergrowth and when it does the "trees" aren't harvested or chopped down .
Areas of undergrowth predominate around the drainange depressions whcih are excluded from the harvestable areas. Understory in the open woodlands of the Jarrah forest is normally pretty low (except where introduced weed have taken over).

I'd back off on statements like "ill-informed drivel" if I was you, as you have, in your own words have backed down on a number of your original ill-informed statements.

On saying all that I hate seeing trees of that size on the ground too but this tree is not a quokka home nor is it a Karri forest so let's not get too many issues caught up together.

Yes let's see some of your work and positive comments and suggestions to others work before you get too preoccupied on the forum trying to portray a negative aspect to woodworking community ... you'll already find a very high proportion of intellectual environmentally aware people contribute to this forum. You'll get good support if bring to light a well informed environmental issue and don't portray a negative approach with a provocative poll as the one that started this thread. ;)

[Bleedin Thumb]

Well Red B now youv'e done it... looks like youve pressed the red neck button

Be careful I think they smell new blood ;)

[Lignum]

And Red_B forgot to mention that its the Foxes and Feral Pigs (and CALMs often out of control backburning) that have gobbled up the Quokkas, NOT the timber industry.

[Shedhand]

Its interesting that anyone who doesn't agree with the green agenda (no progress at any price) is tarred as a red-neck irrespective of any meaningful, educated retort.

I care about australian industry, australian jobs and my grandkids future prospects. Equally I want to do my bit to halt or slow the global uncontrolled plundering of 3rd world forests.

If these concerns lead Bleeding Thumbs to label people who share my views as Rednecks then I plead guilty your honour.

C'mon fellas, proven scientific evidence is all we want.

My last post on this issue. ;)

[Shedhand]

That will teach him a valuable lesson for the impropper use of a baseball bat:eek:Ouch! A splinter in the sphincter.....:eek:

[Auld Bassoon]

If it's true that that piece is to be chipped for paper - well. it's enough to make one want to cry :(

I wonder how many boards could be sliced from that trunk, and how many fine pieces of furniture made from those boards?

[Ianab]

Some thoughts...

What money hungry evil corporation is going to spend actual money to convert a $1000 log into $250 of woodchips :confused: The top logs of that tree, some other ones that dont make good sawlogs might get chipped but the company will be looking to maximise the return on their investment.

The other thing is you can go into a forest, cut out 10% of the trees, and you still have a forest. Complete with 99% of the quokas. You can come back in another 20-50 years and do the same again. Thats sustainable forestry. There will still be Jarra trees and quokas in abundance.

Dont confuse harvesting a tree with destroying a forest. Indivual trees come and go, it's the forest you need to preserve.

Cheers

Ian

[Bleedin Thumb]

Its interesting that anyone who doesn't agree with the green agenda (no progress at any price) is tarred as a red-neck irrespective of any meaningful, educated retort.


My last post on this issue. ;)

Shed hand I was just injecting a bit of humor to diffuse the agro that was building.

I dont believe in broad lables for people based on short snapshots of their beliefs.
Like branding someone (a newbie no less) a greenie over one thread.

I think there is no harm in providing balance even if sometimes by playing the devils advocate.:)

[Lignum]

Its all a Quokkash!t :rolleyes:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I dont believe in broad lables for people based on short snapshots of their beliefs.
Like branding someone (a newbie no less) a greenie over one thread.

Touché.

[Auld Bassoon]

Its all a Quokkash!t :rolleyes:


:D :D :D

[journeyman Mick]

.............200-250k tonnes of Karri being logged from old growth forests for pulp. Selective logging it's called. Some is selected for sawlog, some for veneer flitch and some for pulp. This is whats known as sustainable forestry.................


Shedhand,
now before you brand me as a "greenie" just let me say that I'm personally responsible for clearing quite a few acres of land with chainsaw, 'dozer and fire. I do worry about the future though. Are our practices really sustainable? I fear not, even though I've got no scientific proof, facts or figures to go by.

My family has property that was cleared and farmed a long time ago. They bought it in the early 70's and just let the bush regenerate. There's now very little grassland left, most of it is covered in pioneer rainforest species. After 35 years there's plenty of canopy but there's nothing worth logging, and I doubt there will be for another 30 to 50 years. No doubt some more intensive forestry practice early on may have helped but even so, it would take some time before there would be anything commercially viable to mill. Now bear in mind tht we're in one of the highest rainfall areas of Australia and with our tropical sun, we have amongst the highest growth rates also.

So this 250K tonne of Karri, how long did it take to mature? And this "selective" logging, it's a bit like the precision bombing. Yeah, you get your target, but there's a lot of casualties amongst the bystanders. By the time you make all your logging trails and make them wide enough to drive those monster log skidders along, and fell your trees and maybe drop them on some younger trees/different "unwanted" species, well there's a hell of a lot more than just 250K T that is taken out. Plus, I assume the 250K T is actual log and doesn't include all the branches etc that's trimmed off. Or, if we're talking about sawlogs, well about 30-50% ends up as sawdust or flitches.

Now if you were to add up the tonnage of all timber taken in commercial forestry, including all the "trash", I could almost garuantee that this total figure would be less than the tonnage of timber that actually grows per year in an area equal to the cleared area. Or to put it more succintly, we're harvesting more per year than the forests grow. Now maybe I'm wrong, like I said, I don't have any figures to back this up. I do know that similar debates raged up here before all the rainforest was locked up under world heritage listing. The forestry people claimed that the continued output of timber justified their claims of sustainability. In practice though, areas were logged and originally only the best specimens were felled. Then, after some time, they went into an area again and felled lesser trees, which had grown somewhat since the first harvest. If practices were truly sustainable then we'd still be getting those monster logs we see in the old pictures. The truth is that even before the world heritage listing, it was getting harder and harder to get good quality timber, because all the really good stuff was gone.

Of course, our practices are miles ahead of what happens in South East Asia, but I don't believe the rosy picture the industry paints. And then there's the habitat and biodiversity issues, again, I won't pretend to know that much about all the ins and outs, but logging an area, even selectivley, has great negative impact on all the remaining flora and fauna in the area.

I'm not saying that everything needs to be locked up, out of reach, but I don't trust the industry to self regulate or to calculate exactly what level of harvesting is sustainable.
Flame away!

Mick

[Shedhand]

Shedhand,
now before you brand me as a "greenie" just let me say that I'm personally responsible for clearing quite a few acres of land with chainsaw, 'dozer and fire. I do worry about the future though. Are our practices really sustainable? I fear not, even though I've got no scientific proof, facts or figures to go by.
Flame away!

MickG'day Mick
I don't 'flame' considered argument. You admit to having no scientific proof etc. Your thoughts are your own garnered by personal experience. Not some pack of lies pumped out by the fanatical green machine. I applaud and appreciate that.
Cheers
Another Mick ;)

[Red_B']

G'day again,
Sorry for my absence; I'm a full time carer for my mother who has Alzheimer's disease. If she had a wooden leg I'd have a more interesting job carving a new one out of Balsa.
The attached pic is of jarrah for charcoaling by Japan. As I said, they buy our Jarrah for $5/TONNE but we can't even put it through our own fireplaces for less than $100/tonne.
Ramps: I didn't back down on a number of statements, I pointed out that where I thought the Jarrah was chipped, it was 250,000 TONNES of Karri that gets chipped for pulp and 150,000 TONNES of Jarrah goes to charcoal. As I said, the Japanese are removing Jarrah for charcoal. You may prefer to think that they are taking more than what you see on the truck but that is not the case.
I have to point out that harvesting is to do with bringing in a crop planted by humans - Old growth forest is not a ripened crop.
What's left over from what you see on the truck is burnt at the coop and you couldn't buy it under $100/tonne. As Mick said, there is enormous wastage of good material. In Tasmania it is the same case in many areas and there's plenty of pics in the public domain showing what is left on the ground and not used by anybody - not even firewood.
One thing that is overlooked during logging operations where quokkas reside is the 'post logging burn'. This is where everything goes up in the post logging process as no fire buffers are put around the stream reserves. Then foxes and cats move in and finish off the quokka as there's no habitat to protect them.
All the quantified scientific evidence and information is there on the internet for everybody to see.
Ramps: How can you equate clear felling by Japanese companies with the woodworking industry? Since when is making charcoal woodworking? Quite the opposite I'd have thought.
I never blamed any turner, carpenter, carver, pattern-maker, home handyman, etc for felling 400,000 TONNES/YEAR of Karri and Jarrah for charcoal and pulp. Carpentry timbers would be sustainable.
And you said there are no quokka in the Arcadia forest but there are and that's what started this thread. Provocative? I hardly think it's provocative; cut and dried more like. (sorry for the pun)
There are about 25 colonies of quokka on the mainland of WA and many of them, as in Arcadia forest are threatened with extinction.
The Australian Forestry Code might be a good thing but to work it has to be followed. Like Kyoto and the Helsinki and Montreal Processes, we participate in the conferences and then back off from those conferences' considered method of best practice. The government admits it sold the State out with the $5/T contract but it's too late to get a fair price now.
Anyhow, I wouldn't some of this timber sliced and stacked for my use either.
Ianab: See the pic - $1000 logs for $250? Yep! But you were right when you said, " Individual trees come and go, it's the forest you need to preserve."
But cheer up: We are not killing the planet, we are simply and steadily wiping out the environment that sustains life on it.
Paste this 33°26'46.10"S, 115°58'51.25"E into the search box of GoogleEarth and have a squizz. It doesn't look like much and it's not up to date but this is the area in question and you can see clear felling (not selective logging) right up to water's edge at other points. There are many areas where replanting has not happened.
Thanks for everybodies' input to this discussion.
As my dad used to say: "Apathy and not having a view is a sin of omission”, believing that in a Democracy it is a duty to have a view, share it with others and make a contribution in return for the benefits (of democracy) enjoyed.
To finish on a lighter note: Did someone ask what a quokka tastes like? They taste sort of in between a dolphin and a Tasmanian Tiger.

[Waldo]

G'day Red B,

It seems all you've come here to do on finding a forum to do with woodwork is flog your opinions be them right or wrong, I may well get in trouble for this, but I think most would agree with me.

:mad:

[Lignum]

On yu Waldo:D :D :D :D :D

[Bleedin Thumb]

G'day Red B,

It seems all you've come here to do on finding a forum to do with woodwork is flog your opinions be them right or wrong, I may well get in trouble for this, but I think most would agree with me. :mad:

I for one don't agree with you.

You said it "right or wrong". Also everyone has the right to reply to their critics.
If you can't see the conection between sustainable forestry practices and woodworking then you are more of a dullard than your lame retort alludes to.

[Clinton1]

As I said, the Japanese are removing Jarrah for charcoal.


No mate, the Australians are removing Jarrah for charcoal, the Japanese are the buyers.
The Japanese have the worlds best forestry management practices, if not using forests is what you are after. This means that to obtain the materials they need to subsidise their economy, they need to stuff up other countries forests. An example of environmental footprint in action.

Regardless of what you think about forestry practice and environmental concerns (and I know that your main point IMO is that the logs are being "wasted" by not being turned into sawn timber) at the end of the day "Money talks and Bull**** walks".

If you are concerned, then rather than look for a green solution I think you'd be far better off chasing a financial solution. Either buy a block of land or a forestry lease and leave it alone, or find a like minded group of people to enter a partnership with to do the same.

95% of the Aust population occupy 5% of the Aust. landmass...cities are the biggest environmental destroyers there are. Not only do they wipe out whole areas, but their environmental footprint is pretty large. Currently the footprint covers the other 95% of the landmass.
The income generated by the WA govt through forestry is spent on the public domain, and provides services like healthcare, infrastructure, welfare, education and so on. So, you are benefiting by the way the WA govt (your representatives, carrying out the will of the majority) chooses to obtain the 'best economic use' of the forests under their stewardship.
By living in a city, people are also being environmental vandals and share the responsibility of what you may see as 'destructive practices' more so than the logger or 'scrub puller'.

I, like most of the sunburnt neck'ed country people I know and grew up with, am an environmentalist.
Most farmers are as well. However, I do know that natural resources need to be either used to generate an income, or that someone needs to subsidise the care and maintenance of the natural environment. Not too many real $ come out of the large part of our economy, non-export earnings like retail and services. So, its exports like wood chipping and export timber products that drive and grow the economy.

The QLD govt placed very strict restrictions on the clearing of native vegetation a few years back and it has stuffed a lot of country from an economic viewpoint. The restrictions covered native vegetation on both freehold and leasehold land. Now that clearing is effectively outlawed, the lands income generation potential has dropped, meaning the land users do not have either the $ or the opportunity to undertake best practice land management. This means that bushfires in the regional areas of QLD cannot be controlled and that they burn with an intensity that pretty much destroys everything and creates a "clearfell" type situation. This also happens on public land due to ignorant 'green politic' inspired land management theories being put in place.
The 'green' vegetation law changes (put in place to create a political gain only) means that the reduced farm income cannot stretch to revegetation of degraded areas, fencing off creek banks, controlled burns, feral animal control, best management selective stocking and 'land lockups' for regeneration purposes. so, while the 'green' laws made a lot of people feel good, it is degrading the natural environment. Good, ay?

The above dribble is intended to show that there is a world of difference between reality and simplistic solutions.
At the end of the day, you'll get a quicker, more effective, result if you buy a forestry lease, pay a penalty to the stakeholders that would have benefited from the harvesting, pay for correct land management practices to be carried out, and lock the whole lot up till its time to renew the lease.

[maglite]

That pic that Red_b posted of the logs on the truck.

I could be wrong but the bark outline is a lot different to that of jarrah.
so different in fact that i reckon that isnt jarrah at all.
By the look of the flats and the bark lines it could be wandoo, marri or karri but i doubt that its jarrah.....but i could be wrong.

As for the "good stuff" getting chipped for charcoal.......you obviously have never seen the stuff as whole on these trucks, there may be 1 or 2 logs that might be millable but generally charcoal is about all it is good for.

[Waldo]

If you can't see the conection between sustainable forestry practices and woodworking then you are more of a dullard than your lame retort alludes to.

G'day Bleedin Thumb,

My problem is that he's come here only to shout Greenie stuff and contribute nothing else, he's nothing but a troll. He's found this forum and his purpose is nothing more than the scam threads that have been posted in this Forum. :mad:

And I understand the connection etc., of which I am very sympathetic to. :)

[Bleedin Thumb]

Hi Waldo,
You could be right,Ill give RedB the benefit of the doubt, could just be passionate about his beliefs - any way everyone should have the right to have a "dribble".:) Just wait till I get going.

[Clinton1]

Sheddie:
You would be more than aware that calls to 'back it up with scientific study' are a political stunt thats only called for when the scientific study has been managed to produce the desired outcome.

I'm sure that you are also aware that in a dogmatic and polarised political environment, people like Bob Brown are needed to take an extreme position in order to provide balance to the other extreme positions, like the pro-logging groups.

One stupid pro position + one stupid anti position usually generate a more reasonable compromise. Its this premise that gave rise to a lot of the special interest groups in politics.
Balance, mate. Stupid, but needed in a polarised political situation.

So, I'm not too sure why you are so anti-Bob Brown. He's part of the balance. While its a shame that rabid, single-position, pollies are needed, they are still needed to correct the inbalance.
Hell, if you bag out Bob Brown, you bag out the whole crowd down there for generating the conditions that allowed Bob Brown to get elected.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but forest management has changed a lots since the Greens and enviro's started lighting a fire under the ar#e of the Tassie political scene, and the changes to forest management are being put forward to address the pariah reputation of Tassie forestry?
A pariah reputation that was well earned?

Back to my mung beans!

[Waldo]

Hi Waldo,
You could be right,Ill give RedB the benefit of the doubt, could just be passionate about his beliefs - any way everyone should have the right to have a "dribble".:) Just wait till I get going.

G'day Bleedin Thumb,

:)

[felixe]

Last time I was back home in Tassie there weren't any quokka's, but maybe you can see them all from Melbourne??:confused:

Also, how irresponsible is it to post a picture of a log truck, (any log truck) and make an off the cuff statment that it is "bound for Japan"..

Geez, I could stand on the Southern Outlet or any other part of the Huon Highway and take photos of log trucks all day, but how could I tell where they are bound for? Most go to mills, others for Pulp, don't know about the charcoal,

Also, do they have Jarrah in Tasmania? (This is an honest question).:confused:

Red B, I ask all these questions because I would like to know specific sources to your information, maybe some basic intext referencing so we could all read up on your in-depth research.:)

[Red_B']

Thanks Clinton1,
I think you've been more succinct than I and indeed have helped me address it better having seen it in someone else's words. But the timber is cut by Japanese companies for other Japanese companies for further Japanese companies and for the most part, these companies are owned by the same Japanese corporation; or as they put it, " a value chain, encompassing upstream fields to those downstream".
At one time, there were over 25 million Japanese citizens who petitioned the WA government to stop woodchipping WA's old growth.
Around 160,000 tonnes of 1st and 2nd grade Jarrah goes to saw logs and 150,000 tonnes of 2nd, 3rd and some 1st grade Jarrah goes to charcoal. (I think this corrects my second misunderstanding of the grades that go to charcoal).
Then on top of that is approx another 200,000 tonnes of 3rd grade for fence posts, telephone poles and railway sleepers (Jarrah sleepers may cease soon due to the mining industry cancelling contracts for them). This is every year for 10 years as part of the current Forest Management Plan and comes mostly from the Central and Swan Jarrah forest regions. It amounts to approximately 8,000 Aussie rules or 15,000 Rugby football fields of forest logged EACH YEAR for TEN YEARS.
Maglite: You are wrong as you say you could be: The Jarrah logs on the truck are virtually stripped of bark at the logging coup. And take a look at my first post as that is the sort of timber that goes to charcoal to convert quartz (silica) to silicon for the substrate of CPU's, transistors and solid state devices in general. (they make 30,000 tonnes of pure silicon per year)
Of course, I don't know and can't provide, and nobody would want me to here, all the facts on the topic. It was never my intention but I did wish to find out how others felt and as I mentioned earlier, I appreciate everybodies' input.
Regards and thanks again,
Red_B'

Look here <http://www.tcha.org.au/water.html> for the effect of the wood chipping industry on Melbourne. I literally only just found it at time of posting.

oh, and Waldo, for you and those others who like to swear in a forum by misspelling words, your intent is the same and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. I'm glad it didn't get through to the forum though it did go through my e-mail. You've lowered yourself below any level of respect I could afford you.

[Lignum]

oh, and Waldo, for you and those others who like to swear in a forum by misspelling words, your intent is the same and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. I'm glad it didn't get through to the forum though it did go through my e-mail. You've lowered yourself below any level of respect I could afford you.


I respect Waldo more than some new pup with 6 posts to his name. Maybe if you had a few posts up your belt introducing yourself around and also showing your interest in woodworking, THEN have your say about what you feel so strongly about instead of your first post attacking the industry like you did. If all you want to do is come here and rant, then maybe you should be looking at another forum to do it in:(

[Red_B']

G'day Felixe,
I don't know if Jarrah does grow in Tasmania. I can't find a reference to it on the net but as Gunns is doing its best to construct a pulp mill at Bell Bay for Kraft wood, they will probably "import" Jarrah from WA. After all, if Bell Bay is to produce 800,000 tonnes of pulp EVERY YEAR, where do the trees come from?

[BobL]

At one time, there were over 25 million Japanese citizens who petitioned the WA government to stop woodchipping WA's old growth.

I don't buy blanket woodchipping but I find some of your facts distinctly lacking credibility.

Your association between Quokkas and jarrah is still not substantiated.
From the WA Calm Website on Quokkas (show me where it says Jarrah or provide me with any creditable reference that says quokka's are associated with jarrah)

PREFERRED HABITAT: On the mainland, densely vegetated areas around swamps or streams are preferred. On Rottnest Island, however, they inhabit low and scrubby coastal vegetation where water is not always available year round.

With all respect to the japanese, some of whom I count amongst my best friends, my experience from living there is I seriously doubt whether 1 million japanese could point to WA on a map of the world let alone have any idea what is actually there. The reason they might petition anything to do with stopping trees being taken for chipping would be based on the same green credentials as their whale research projects, like it might affect their beloved koalas which like quokkas can be found all over WA.

[Red_B']

BobL:
G'day. The Green House cred's is an interesting point but not the case here. I remembered that there was some sort of petition, albeit some years ago and it took a bit to find but it turns out it was from a "Japanese Consumer Union" which stated that it represented 30 million consumers whose main concern was food safety and the environment. I guess it's a lobby group of concerned people. The petition was about six years ago too but the sentiment's just the same. It doesn't directly relate to the quokka either. I merely mentioned it to point out that there is concern from that neck of the woods too. I agree with your comment about not too many being able to point to us; we almost don't exist to a lot of people.
There's a web-site I was referred to but I don't seem to be able to get onto and it's this: http://www.savearcadiaforest.tk/ (where's tk ? Turkey?) I'd be interested to know if you get on it as I'm told it definitely works. I changed my browser settings but still get no result.
There's plenty of info' on the net regarding quokka inhabiting the Arcadia forest. Arcadia is full of Jarrah which a Japanese company buys for $5 per tonne and turns to charcoal at Kemerton in WA, etc; please read full thread.
Thanks Bob.
Regs,
Red

[ernknot]

I wish we had a few more logs like that dropped for us woodworkers, it's a shame to see them chipped ( if that is the case)
This jarrah is most likley destined for the outdoor patio furniture market and some for the professional woodworkers.
Why the hell would you ship a log like that to Tassie to chip?
I reckon red b is one of those tree sitters with nothing better to do than stir the pot.
Bugger off and go live with your quokkas, you are of the same mind.

[BobL]

Red_B

I did not raise the green house cred in my post. My post profers that there is a lot of concern about all parts of the planet from people from other parts of the planet who don't even know "where is" and know even less about what actually goes on there.

I have looked at the save aracadia forest site. Tk is turkey. As a moderately savy web surfer I would immediately ask why turkey? What's wrong with supporting local WA web providers? Double standards at play perhaps or something to hide? There are some uncaptioned photos of people standing around looking at trees but there is not a single name for any individual from SAFE - why?. The site appears to be a collection of comment, newleases from a group called SAFE (Who are they?) and personal interpretations. They claim that 15 quokkas exist in that forest but who has seen them. ie "Who are they"? I would rate the site 3/10 for credibility and tell my students to ignore that site.

Your continuing association between quokkas and Jarrah is still far from convincing. You are making associations that cannot be substantiated.

Once again from the CALM website:


STATUS AND DISTRIBUTION: Once very common in areas such as the Swan Coastal Plain near Perth and Gingin, quokkas are now uncommon on the mainland and confined to isolated pockets within the south-west corner of WA. They are, however, found at Dwellingup, Jarrahdale, Harvey and Collie, in Stirling Range National Park and along the South Coast to Two Peoples Bay. They occur in large numbers on Rottnest Island, near Perth, and Bald Island, east of Albany.


Sure jarrah grows at some of those places but it also grows elsewhere (even more intensely - but no quokkas!) and jarrah does not grow on Rottnest or Bald Island where they thrive. In other words Quokka's do not need jarrah.

Let me just reitterate that I don't support wholesale woodchipping or people that register on forums and sprout things that cannot be substantiated.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Red_B

They claim that 15 quokkas exist in that forest but who has seen them. ie "Who are they"?
Take a good look at the web site it clearly states CALM as the people who did the survey,
In July 2005 the government department in charge of protecting quokka - Department of Conservation and Land Management (CALM), trapped several quokka while conducting an animal survey in the ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>Arcadia</ST1:place></st1:City> forest 30kms east of Bunbury. This small colony was said to have numbered about 15 animals. CALM then set about putting in a quokka management plan to protect their habitat from fox predation, fire, and forest habitat destruction. This included dropping poison kangaroo baits to help keep fox numbers down, but according to mammal experts, this plan is failing to increase quokka numbers. ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>
Fast-forward to 2006, and we find that <st1:City><ST1:place>Arcadia</ST1:place></st1:City> forest is now to be logged to supply logs to Tasmanian timber giant Gunns, and the Japanese owned silicon smelter at Kemerton.<O:p></O:p>
Conservationists from the Save Arcadia Forest Ecosystem (SAFE) are now appealing to the state Minister for the Environment, Mark McGowan to suspend logging operations in <st1:City><ST1:place>Arcadia</ST1:place></st1:City> until more scientific data is collected on the rare quokka, including their habitat
<O:p></O:p>
Your continuing association between quokkas and Jarrah is still far from convincing. You are making associations that cannot be substantiated.

.
The quokka may not be dependent on the Jarrah as in some sort of symbiotic relationship but it is sure as hell dependent on its environment and if you log those habitates you are putting the population at risk.

The ideological camps are
1. We need the immediate income that logging Arcadia forest will produce or
2. We think that it is more valuable to protect this endangered species.
Personally I think maintaining the worlds biodiversity is hugely important and whilst I also see the need for a robust economy I think that destroying an endangered species habitat for $5 per tonne is criminal.

I also respect other peoples view if RedB has done nothing else he's let some people here vent their spleens;)
PS Sorry BobL for getting you quote stuffed up.

[Lignum]

The quokka may not be dependent on the Jarrah as in some sort of symbiotic relationship but it is sure as hell dependent on its environment and if you log those habitates you are putting the population at risk.

.

What a Quokkash!t. I lived in Dwellinup for a few years and NEVER once seen a quoakka apart from the weekly copies in the newsagent. redB has told us he has never been over their so whats he on about with all this Quokkacrap. He is just a sh!tst!rrer Troll with nothing beter to do than cause trouble

[Doughboy]

Dont all you sandgropers play quokka sokka?

I went to Rottnest Island and had the dubious honour if meeting them there. Interesting, cute, or a pain in the backside I am not sure but they deserve to be looked after. Not sure why though

Pete

[Lignum]

I went to Rottnest Island and had the dubious honour if meeting them there. Interesting, cute, or a pain in the backside I am not sure but they deserve to be looked after. Not sure why though

Pete

Thats why they dont log on Rotto, to protect the Quokka and the pizzed tourists:p

[Waldo]

He is just a sh!tst!rrer Troll with nothing beter to do than cause trouble

G'day,

Totally agree with you Lignum and thanks for backing me up earlier.

I'd like Red B to answer a question for me. Why have you joined this Forum? :confused:

Me personally, to learn as much as I can from the people who visit here, to share ideas and as an extension of this I've had the pleasure to meet with some of the blokes here who have offered help and advice on a number of things. I also joined this Forum to give some help to others from the little bit that I do know.

[Bleedin Thumb]

What a Quokkash!t. I lived in Dwellinup for a few years and NEVER once seen a quoakka apart from the weekly copies in the newsagent. redB has told us he has never been over their so whats he on about with all this Quokkacrap. He is just a sh!tst!rrer Troll with nothing beter to do than cause trouble
Hi Lignum,
When I said its environment I was refering to the quokka' environment not the Jarrahs.
We are all dependent on our environment .... even you and funny thing is that the poor old quokka is dependant on you for its survival:p

Poor bloody things got no chance!!!!:D

[Lignum]

Bleedin:D Ill tell you one thing that is FACT. More Quokkas are hurt on Rotto by idiots than any tree falling over in the forests of the south west ;)

[BobL]

Bleedin:D Ill tell you one thing that is FACT. More Quokkas are hurt on Rotto by idiots than any tree falling over in the forests of the south west ;)

Some of then are not even , they're just uninformed (often foreign, and/or think they have lotsa green-cred) tourists who feed them crap.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Bleedin:D Ill tell you one thing that is FACT. More Quokkas are hurt on Rotto by idiots than any tree falling over in the forests of the south west ;)

What about trees ... I had one jump out infront of my car once.:eek:

So is that why you want that forest logged .. to protect the quokkas from getting hurt by falling trees?:D

[felixe]

G'day Felixe,
I don't know if Jarrah does grow in Tasmania. I can't find a reference to it on the net but as Gunns is doing its best to construct a pulp mill at Bell Bay for Kraft wood, they will probably "import" Jarrah from WA. After all, if Bell Bay is to produce 800,000 tonnes of pulp EVERY YEAR, where do the trees come from?

I hadn't heard about that:confused: Where did you read this info, last I heard Gunns were looking down South. Hmmm, Bell bay is already crowded out with the smelter,:eek: lovely area to visit around near Georgetown. :)
Ideal place live around there with the proximity to Bass Strait and all the wineries, esp. Janz!:D

[Red_B']

All the info' I've posted comes directly from scientists, reserachers, the Internet and people in the area.
Simcoa used to employ contractors to cart whole Jarrah logs to their silicon plant but were embarrassed when a video exposing it was aired. Now they contract to spot mills that mill the logs into chocks (wood blocks) and then cart them into the plant in covered trucks.
Simcoa don't do any of the physical logging in the forest. This is all organised by the government department in charge of logging, the Forest Products Commission. That department tenders to the logging contractors and mills (i.e. Gunns) and sells the blocks on for $5/Tonne. As the Jarrah has been cut down to blocks that can no longer be used for anything else, it is now called "Residue" and that's why the majority of the public thinks that the charcoal timber comes from residue.
Simcoa could use plantation eucalyptus to produce charcoal, but why bother when you can source Jarrah for a bargain basement price of $5 per tonne. It won't do us much good to whinge because there is shortage of hardwood for our industry/hobby. There is barely a murmur when the 150,000-tonnes per annum of excellent quality Jarrah right under our noses let alone the other timbers that go to chipping.

The pic is of Jarrah logs which are first stripped of bark at small spot mills and then milled into chocks and sent to the silicon smelter.

[Lignum]

So whats your point?

And how many other boards do you troll just stiring up trouble?


Even the Poll questions are stupid and loaded. 30% have treated it as the joke it is.

And show me one member of this forum who thinks Jarrah SHOULD be chipped... What a dumb question.



So go away Red_B and annoy someone else:mad:

[Red_B']

So whats your point?

And how many other boards do you troll just stiring up trouble?

Go away red and annoy someone else:mad:

Honestly Lignum, to me, woodwork is constructing furniture or artifacts, whatever, carving, turning, even house construction. I am not having a go at that. I'm not even having a go at the logging industry in general. I merely said that a species is being endangered by timber being felled for pulp woodchipping and charcoal and asked how others felt about it.
You are way off the beam.
Since when does only having 6 posts have anything to do with anything? I've offered rational comment.
Nobody is asking you to contribute to, or even read, this discussion. It's commendable of you to defend something or someone but I'm not attacking any member of Woodwork Forums so I really don't see what you're getting so upset about. If you choose to ignore truth and facts then that's up to you.
$5 per Tonne Lignum. That alone tells you there's something wrong.
400,000 Tonnes of Jarrah to pulp and charcoal - is that OK with you?
It seems to be because that's what you're defending. You are not defending anyone in here.
I have many friends and acquaintances in timber logging, cartage and milling here in Victoria and I can tell you that those I've spoken to since I began this thread, agree with me. They also praise Clinton1, Bleedin Thumb and Mick for their comments being reasoned and fair. None of my mates here do anything near what's happening to WA's old growth forests.

Re the dot tk web-site, I think they have it because it's one of those freebies. I still can't open it. I even turned off my firewall so perhaps my ISP has issues with it.
Cheers,
Red

[Waldo]

Since when does only having 6 posts have anything to do with anything? Red

Your posts total nothing more than a rant, which as I asked earlier, brings into question why you've taken it upon yourself to post nothing else but on this great Forum. :mad:

I read Clinton's post as telling you to go buy some forestry land and leave it to it's natural course and sticking it up the timber industry - but then I may have read it wrong.

Like I said earlier I understand and agree with conservation, but my tolerance runs out when parties do nothng else but stand on a soapbox. Find a nice big fat and unfortunate tree that is being felled and stand in the way of its path as it falls over, that way you might save some trees otherwise also being felled that lie in its path. :mad:

[Lignum]

Honestly Lignum, to me, woodwork is constructing furniture or artifacts, whatever, carving, turning, even house construction.

Looks like i misjudjed you as a Mung Bean Muncher, but your realy into woodwork, good on yu :)

Tell us about some of the stuff you like to make and even a few photos wouldnt go astray;)

[Clinton1]

At $5 per ton, what is the per hectare rate for a forestry lease?
How many hectares can you buy for that rate?

I still think that putting your $ where your ideals lie is the best bet, as well as informing others of how they can do it as well.


Have fun.

[Red_B']

G'day Clinton,
I liked the way you chuck in, "Have fun". (you're a fisherman too, am I right coz I know I bite. hahaha)
You're right with your last post and, yes, I have contributed in other ways having been watching over the situation for about five years or so. Discussion is very important as a lot of happenings are allowed to be pushed to the background so as not to alert the public.
There are plenty of avenues for others to assist and I guess through http://www.savearcadiaforest.tk would be as good as any. I finally gained access to that site by the way; I hadn't been able to get on it for two months. I e-mailed my ISP to ask if it had an issue with "Dot TK" sites and all of a sudden it opened to me (without any sort of reply from my ISP I might add).
Sorry I didn't respond more fully to your post (a valuable contribution - thanks) on page3.
The people with the Save Arcadia Forest web-site offered to buy the lease on the particular section for $28,000 (pledged by conscerned public) which is the going value for the area. The WA government waived the offer and continue to allow the timber to be taken out at $5/Tonne.
As mentioned earlier, plantation timber could be used but the WA gov' sells Old Growth Forest Jarrah for $5/Tonne.
NOTE: Under the "State Agreement Act", nobody pays ANY logging rights as the government lets contracts for the whole operation from standing timber to wood chocks to the Simcoa plant.
As a matter of interest, Simcoa pays a "Pepper Corn Lease" of One Dollar per year (about a quarter of one cent per day) for the land under its processing plant.
Waldo: Well, I guess in a way it is, "a rant" as you say. I started this thread quite simply. But, where does Waldo draw a line on the obliteration of a forest area or an endangered species? You tell us that. I am not attacking the timber industry. I have put up for discussion the practice of selling perfect Jarrah at $5/Tonne at a rate of 150,000 Tonnes per annum for charcoal. Perfectly good Jarrah. It might not make 10" thick dining room table tops but it would make the absolute best ever finest dining table I've ever seen (well nearly, apart from a blackwood one I once saw [envy]).
Ernknot: The Jarrah in the pics I've posted do get burned to charcoal. It gets debarked, sectioned and cut to wood chocks. I wouldn't mind if it were plantation timber and went to decking, carpentry and that favourite old Irish fellow, Paddy O'Furniture. But it isn't. 150,000 Tonnes per annum are sold for $5/Tonne by the WA government for charcoal production. Yes, there's quite an amount of timber that goes to good purpose and perhaps it is from plantation; but not the charcoal stuff.
Re Tasmania, Gunns proposes 800,000 Tonnes per annum of wood chip from Bell Bay; you tell me where they'll get that much timber. WA timber has been discussed for Bell Bay.
I wonder if they can put that beautiful Jarrah grain back into the MDF. (perhaps if we close our eyes tightly and click our heels together three times, it might just happen)
It is so simple to demand evidence of truth and to off-handedly discount it, and it is so much more moronically simple to not profer evidence or facts against a stated truth.

Now, to the term "Mung Bean Muncher":
I must say that using derogatory names for participants in a forum is a well known method in an attempt to intimidate and alienate people from a group. Children do it, rascists do it and, to take it to an extreme, world leaders do it to start wars.
I can tell you that this will not be what the originator/s, administrators and moderators of "Woodwork Forums" want 'The Forum' to endorse and participants who do, sadly let them, The Forum, the hobby and the industry down very badly if that is what a visitor can expect to see.
My thanks to Journeyman Mick, Clinton1, Bleedin Thumb, Shedhand, Coastie, Felixe and even Robbiewy. I know we don't strictly agree but you have been constructive in the discussion and agreement/disagreement.
Regards,
Red_B'

[ozwinner]

Its run its course.

Al