Adding a new power circuit

[hardy]

I have noticed as a result of using heaters this winter one of the power circuits in my house overloads and trips the 16A circuit breaker. At the moment the power circuit is for one bedroom, laundry and kitchen. I want the laundry on a separate power circuit. My house is a semi attached 2 storey terrace double brick house over 100 years old. I have been told to add the new circuit there are two options.

The first is to terminate the existing GPO in the laundry and rewire the existing GPO with new twin + earth wire 4mm. This new wire would have to travel a distance of approx 20m to reach the switchboard on the other side of the front door in a straight line in a 20mm conduit in the wall through a 300mm x 300mm trench.

The second option is to again terminate the existing GPO in the laundry. Then use the manhole upstairs to access the roof and drop down the new twin + earth wire down the cavity with one end in the laundry and the other end at the switchboard. With this way the both double bricks of the wall in the laundry would be removed to access the wires and rewire the existing GPO.

Could you please advise me which option i should take.

[Ashore]

I would get the quallified lecco whose doing the job to use the second option to remove a few bricks would be a lot cleaner job than trenching

Would it be easier to get the existing wireing replaced with a 20 amp circuit as you could use the existing cables to pull the new cables at each point.

However you go rewireing a place that old if you are not doing a complete reno is a costly and messy PITA, :(

Rgds

[hardy]

Thanks for your response. Would it be possible to replace the existing 16A circuit breaker with more than a 20A maybe a 32A circuit breaker because the demand on the circuit is high. If a 32A circuit breaker is used should 10mm wire be used to rewire the GPOs? Installing the new 32A circuit breaker and wiring would result in increasing the load on the circuit. Would this increase cause an overload of the existing switchboard? With both options mentioned previously a new switchboard would be installed as the existing one looks like only a 7 pole, and is full?

[Ashore]

Why not put in a new board anyway , once you start getting work done on your wireing etc you will have to put in a earth leakage unit if you haven't already got one and new meters. whats your mains switch one of those old square push to reset types.
As to the cable size you will need for 32amp or the size you need that goes to the meter box thats a job for a quallified lecco .:rolleyes:

[hardy]

The mains switch is the ones that you flip on and off manually.

[thatirwinfella]

if you're having to ask so many questions you are obviously not qualified to attempt this job. also, it is illegal to even attempt to do any electrical work on your own home.

have you ever noticed when a house burns down and there is no obvious cause it is attributed to an electrical fault? well, if this does occur to you your insurance company, energysafe, and the last electrician who wired your house will all be trying to point a finger. If you've touched anything in your house your insurance is void and you can have trouble selling your own house [which is a more likely scenario then a house fire, though from the questions....]

As an apprentice electrician who thought he knew a bit to begin with, i now realise how little i know and how much i still have to learn. seriously, get a professional in to do it. I can think of a very cheap alternative to what you've suggested and i'm sure a LICENCED electrician could think of it too. In a house that age, it would be wise to get it rewired regardless, as the demand by most modern kitchens and laundries [as you are experiencing] couldn't have been contemplated by those who designed your house.

for your own sake, get a pro in, or plug the heater into a room on a different circuit.

[Pulse]

Hardy, I have to agree with thatirwinfella, You can't add a circuit without considering the house as a whole eg RCD protection, maximum demand calculations etc.

Adding a new circuit to a house that was wired last year with expansion in mind is one thing but fiddling with old wiring, trying to make it modern on the cheap, is another.

Pay for an electrician, help him do the job or do the chasing for the new circuits and learn.

Cheers
Pulse

[spartan]

I agree with the other other guy (thatirwinfella), except about the bit about your insurance being void.....we debated this in other threads....

<gets atop the hobby horse>

As I've said in other posts....tell people not to do it 'cause it dangerous and the like...but because of insurance is a mute point.....

What electrical standards do they have in NZ? (AS/NZ 3000) - same as ours, yet you can do a lot of your own electrical work yourself there (majority of home electrical except switchboard work, and adding circuits in fact)....do insurance companies pay claims yes there? yes they do.....

Do insurance companies pay claims when you daisy chain five powerboards, connect a bar heater get tanked and knock it over and then go to sleep.....yes they do....No doubt there are many backyard sparky's who are quite competent to do of a range of electrical work safely (albeit illegally), but the vast majority of them wouldn't dream of touching a switchboard or adding a circuit...

I assume that you are asking the questions so you know what the options are and can consider the pros and cons before calling in an appropriately skilled person...

<gets off hobby horse>

[Pulse]

Well said spartan,

I think withholding knowledge on the basis that someone will harm themselves as a result of that knowledge is paternalistic and at times arrogant.

Surely it is better to give that person the knowledge so they see that the job is hard and then leave the decision up to them....

..knowledge is power...
power is freedom...

Cheers
Pulse

[Barry_White]

Knowing what I know about two story semi-detached houses in Sydney and having seen many of the old switch boards that exist and the chance that half the old wire is rubber insulated and cotton covered and when you disturb it the insulation falls off and run in old metal conduit I would advise as the others have said rewire the house and do it properly with a licenced electrition.

[hardy]

To give everybody some background information i am a computer engineer and have also completed a basic course on electrical wiring and a standards at tafe. I admit I am not a qualified electrician. I don't mean to be rude but the course i did at tafe was so easy compared to my uni so I don't understand why I even have to justify myself. I posted my question expecting some helpful advice or suggestions only to be insulted by most of you especially thatirwinfella. I don't understand what this forum is for if majority of uses refuse to give help and if you do ask a question that instantly means you are not competent. An intelligent person asks questions if they need another point of view to solve a problem and then re-evaluate with the new point of view or suggestion. From my initial question you could tell I have an understanding of the principles of electricity. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Pulse before i carry out any electrical work i will do the maximum demand calculations on my circuits using AS3000 which I am familiar and competent with. AS3008 will be used for to select the cable size. I will only attempt the job if I am sure is safe and suitable. Im not stupid and will not cause a fire as if I will follow the requirements of the Standards AS3000 and AS3008 and rewire according to them. I will not touch live wires and will conduct my work with the power off. I will also get an electrician to certify my work before commissioning. I will not be doing it on the cheap and will purchase everything required. It is all about common sense and logic and using the rules and the theory I know. Also my house was rewired about 30 years ago and I do not have rubber insulated wires covered with cotton. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
To thatirwinfella you do not have to be a genius to be an electrician and you really should not insult people asking for advice. I learn things quite quickly and I would appreciate you not comparing me to you now or especially when you were an apprentice. I don’t understand why if there was a cheaper and suitable option that I overlookedl why you wouldn’t tell me. I actually doubt that you know of one as you don’t know the demand on the circuit. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Ashore thank you for giving me advice. <o:p></o:p>

[Dan]

If a 32A circuit breaker is used should 10mm wire be used to rewire the GPOs?



AS3008 will be used for to select the cable size


:rolleyes:

[Sturdee]

..... have also completed a basic course on electrical wiring and a standards at tafe. ............... before i carry out any electrical work i will do the maximum demand calculations on my circuits using AS3000 which I am familiar and competent with. AS3008 will be used for to select the cable size. .............. I will also get an electrician to certify my work before commissioning.

If you have done that and know that, then you should also know that you should ask these questions from the electrician that will certify your work. :(

Also if you had outlined these details in your original question it may have been answered better but it looked like another incompetant home renovator trying to fry themselves.:mad:




I posted my question expecting some helpful advice or suggestions ................I don't understand what this forum is for if majority of uses refuse to give help

You will find, if you bothered to search, that most of us will not help with detailed electrical questions as that would be assisting you to do an illegal act.


Peter.

[boban]

10mm2 wire for GPO's. Somehow I dont think you could stick one wire in the GPO nevertheless 2.

Anyway.

Hardy dont get your knickers in a knot. Most people here are more than willing to help people but when it comes to electricity most are understandably concerned. Unlike plumbing, you dont just get wet, you get dead when it goes wrong.

I too know a fair bit about electrical wiring but also hesitate to give advice here because I too am not qualified. I'm fortunate in that free electrical advice is usually only a telephone call away.

You might find that most GPO's are wired with 2.5mm2 twin and earth with 4mm used on high draw appliances or where long runs are concerned. Your basic course will have taught you how to work out losses over runs. See this post from Pulse http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=248558&postcount=15 in an earlier thread.

You might find the difference in attitude toward you has something to do with the fact that you are an unknown quantity. So as Sturdee says you may just be another incompetent looking for early retirement.

My advice is to stay calm, explain yourself, ignore the advice you consider rude or unhelpful and you will probably find a pretty good bunch of blokes here.

But if you are getting a sparky to certify your work, there is nothing wrong with you doing the grunt work and getting him to terminate the connections. After all that's what the apprentice does from day one.

I would however arrange this before you start the work. He will tell you what wire to use otherwise read this thread and you will get what you need http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=25438

Hope that helps

[hardy]

Dan I do agree with what you said about me asking about what cable size to use. The reason i did was because i misplaced my AS3008 and had not performed the maximum demand calculations yet. I realise now that i shouldn't asked that.

Boban when i wrote 10mm i meant i will be using twin + earth 10mm but im not sure if that exists. I will be using AS3008 to find out what i require based on demand. I will also calculate the voltage drop. I agree with you and i was planning on having an electrician inspect the job first and check my proposed design and certify my work before commissioning. Thank you for your message and comments.

Maybe i should have told my background but i didn't think it was necessary. I understand people would not want to give home renovators detailed electrical information as they might not understand the basic principles of electricity.

[thatirwinfella]

I had no intention of being rude or of questioning your intelligence. the implication of what I was saying was that if you have to ask for cable sizes or the best method to do the job then you are obviously not an electrician.

A tafe course with some basic circuitry [certificate I perhaps?] is definately not enough for you to rewire a house, particularly anything involving switchboards. I have done a similar course before starting an apprenticeship and the one i did was not advanced enough for anyone to think about doing osmething to what you have proposed. Just because you thought a course was easy does not imply that rewiring a house will be.

Your choice of cable sizes is also questionable, but forgiving if you have misplaced AS3008. 10mm is overkill. 6mm is overkill. If it's just a laundry 4mm is likely overkill... although you could just have a rather large washing machine for all I know. There you go, thats some advice.

You will probably have a hard time getting an electrician to sign off on another persons work even if they test it. Thats just something I've come across.


I understand people would not want to give home renovators detailed electrical information as they might not understand the basic principles of electricity.

I agree with what boban and Sturdee have said, if you ask an electrical question you're likely to get a poor response due to the safety aspects and legality.

[Pulse]

Hardy, I like your second post, because I think that people with the knowledge should be allowed to do wiring in their own home with certain regulations and supervision. I also think it would be safer than having houses full of split steel conduit and cotton insulated wires.

You have the right standards to do the job safely. I've found AS 3018 for domestic installations a bit more useful than AS 3000 since it only gives you the details you need for that sore of installation.

I'd be happy to help you with any other questions. People need to know that their information is being understood and applied safely, which given your background would be. Boban's point about us not knowing where you were coming from is where it's at.

Cheers
Pulse

[Metal Head]

"I think withholding knowledge on the basis that someone will harm themselves as a result of that knowledge is paternalistic and at times arrogant"

Surely it is better to give that person the knowledge so they see that the job is hard and then leave the decision up to them....

..knowledge is power...
power is freedom...

Cheers
Pulse

Hi Pulse,

Have you ever heard of the saying "a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous"?. With a lot of trades I would agree with you that people should (or could) pass on their knowledge here;) but ELECTRICITY NO. Especially when we are talking about the amount of wiring to be done in this case. As was suggest previously, he should get the advice off the electrician who is going to to "sign off" the job.

I read the magazine that is sent out by energy safe and it is sad to see how many lifes have been lost because they had little knowledge of what they were doing. One such case was highlighted in a thread recently by me, where a young lad of 16 was electrocuted. This happened as a result of only taking globes out of holders in a car yard.

Regards
David
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[echnidna]

I don't see why you need to remove bricks.

Drill a hole through the brickwork say an inch or so. Any size will do as long as the hole can be covered by the switch and mounting block.

Immediately above the hole drop a stringleline with a fishing sinker down the cavity.

Fish the stringline out with a piece of wire with a hook on the end.

Tie the stringline to the new cable and pull the cable through the cavity.
You'll probably need someone to feed the cable while you pull the stringline.

[journeyman Mick]

Hardy,
just in case you haven't already, it would be wise to talk to your sparky first and run what you want to do past him first (ie: you fit, he signs off on work). I've done the same in the past as I've got some sparky mates, but you may find it difficult to get someone to sign off on the work if you just present them with the finished job.

Mick

[Strungout]

Why did I do a 4 year Electrical apprenticship.??

I Could have saved myself a few years doing the courses Hardy did.

[echnidna]

Why did I do a 4 year Electrical apprenticship.??

I Could have saved myself a few years doing the courses Hardy did.

The theory is the easy part.
Regulations can confuse very competent electronics people.
And there is the practical experience of an apprenticeship

Thats why!!

[Pulse]

I found an interesting article about DIY wiring in the US:


Even considering the issue of safety offers more questions than answers with regards to how do-it-yourselfing has become such a contentious subject. It seems that every electrician and inspector — including those interviewed for this story — has encountered at least one homemade wiring job that would bolster the case for outlawing DIY electrical work altogether. Yet almost all of that anecdotal evidence comes with a happy ending that involves fixing the problem and averting disaster. Rarely, if ever, do you hear, “If only we'd gotten there a day earlier.” The factual evidence offers scarcely more help. In 1999, only 29 of the 170 nationwide electrocution deaths were attributable to household wiring, circuit breakers, or fuses. Bill King, chief engineer for electrical and fire safety for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, will allow that DIY projects gone wrong are responsible for some of those deaths, but the details are sketchy.


No doubt electricity is dangerous but so is a dodgy 4m high deck. For any job, if it is done properly then it is safe. The availability of wiring stuff is testament to the amount of DIY wiring done.

Surely having information to enable this to be carried out safely is better than no information at all?

Nothing like an interesting debate revisited.
Cheers
Pulse

[spartan]

Pulse,
I agree. Australia has one of highest instances of electrical death in first world countries. Interestingly, the US, UK, and New Zuland all over lower instances.

Each of those nations (ok the UK includes more than one country) allows DIY electrical. They have decided that education is better than legislation. As my dad used to say - you can't legislate against stupidity - as soon as you make something idiot proof - they go and build a better idiot...but I digress. I little bit of knowledge can be dangerous - unless it is put into context - by giving people confidence to do something and the knowledge of what is way beyond their capabilities.

It recognises the fact that people will attempt this work, regardless of the law - so far better to ensure that they do it as safely as possible - in New Zuland you can do 4 day electrical safety courses. This instructs people to do basic home electrical work - again nothing touching a switchboard. They teach you about installing lights, powerpoints, fans etc - and scare the #$%@ out of you about safety and the need to stay away from modifying circuits and opening up your switchboard - they also encourage certification by licensed electricians. - So everyone wins.

I think Australian states need to revist this.

We all know many people who have undertaken this kind of work I'm sure so it is very common. Anyone can buy the requisite gear from a hardware store etc.

[felixe]

I came across this extract while researching workplace health and safety for my current employer, written in plain english it clearly covers the law in Qld regarding "DIY" electrical work:

"Thinking of doing your own electrical work? Think again


Every year, Queenslanders are injured while performing electrical work without a licence.
The Electrical Safety Office regularly investigates these cases, and others where unsafe unlicensed work has been carried out.
Queensland’s Electrical Safety Act 2002 is clear on who can carry
out electrical work – qualified, licensed electricians. Anyone else
carrying out electrical work is breaking the law.
The law exists for a simple reason – electricity can be dangerous
and care should be taken with its use. Even if you are a confident
do-it-yourself you should never take risks with electricity.
The Electrical Safety Office recommends that all electrical work be
carried out by a licensed electrical contractor.
Want to find out whether the electrician you have selected is
appropriately qualified? Visit www.dir.qld.gov.au (http://www.dir.qld.gov.au/)."

The above extract was taken from "Safe" magazine, the May 2006 edition which can be downloaded from the Qld Dept Industrial Relations website. This legislation, the electrical safety act of 2002 only applies to Queensland, however it is clearly stated in plain english where you stand if you carry out any electrical work in Queensland and do not have the appropriate licence.
I am not trying to stir up any past threads, or to question the "ability and knowledge" of other members in completing their own electrical work, but I thought this would help clarify the issue for QLD members.
(If you get caught, the fine will far outweigh the cost to hire a sparky!)

If in doubt, then contact your state department for clarification.

Regards,
Felixe.

[felixe]

What the?

Sorry guys, that was cut and paste, I don't understand why the font size is so large, can't change it in edit - so if a moderator can help out, then much abliged. (oops! - not shouting, honestly!)

[hardy]

Thatirwinfella the power circuit in question is for the laundry, kitchen and one bedroom.

Quote from Ashore
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</TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_341173>Would it be easier to get the existing wireing replaced with a 20 amp circuit as you could use the existing cables to pull the new cables at each point.<!-- / sig --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

When wrote 10mm cable i meant for rewiring the existing power circuit for the laundry, kitchen and bedroom and replacing the existing circuit breaker with a 32A. I will have to refer to AS3018 for domestic installations to find the maximum demand allowed on a power circuit.
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I don’t have the statistics for it but I believe electricians have one of the highest fatality rates from electrocution. As an electrician you obviously know the theory and abide by the standards and also have the experience. The only thing i can attribute this to is an electrician completing the same jobs daily and therefore becomes more confident and as a result might make mistakes trying to save time. Whereas I myself understand the rules and standards and will take my time and double check my calculations as I am not as experienced as an electrician.
<o:p> </o:p>
Strungout the computer engineering degree I did was a five year degree. I might not have found the tafe courses so easy had I not done my degree. The only difference between computer engineering and electrical engineering is 5 subjects and I completed 4 of these as electives. Electrical wiring was not part of my degree and that’s why I completed by tafe course. Obviously the practical experience obtained as an apprentice is important.

Echnidna thank you for your message and advice.
<o:p> </o:p>
Pulse I agree with you and I was planning on referring to AS 3018 for domestic installations. Firstly thank you for your message and advice.

The reason why the16A circuit breaker is tripping is because recently we replaced the old porcelain fuses with the plug in circuit breakers and also bought some new appliances including heaters. My maximum demand calculated on this power circuit is about 34A so the 32A circuit breaker would not be sufficient but the 10mm cable might be alright still have to find my AS3008 to check this. I can't find the power requirements on the self heating dishwasher , condenser dryer and 5kg washing machine, could you tell me what input power i should use for my calculations?. On the ID for fridge it uses 325W of input power does that sound right? I have given the above appliances guessed values so i could determine my maximum demand calculation of 34A using 50% of the load for each one above including two microwaves at 1600W each and a 2400W heater + 10A for GPOs on circuit. It is a high demand power circuit as all of the above appliances are on the same circuit. Did i calculate the maximum demand correctly?

[thatirwinfella]

in most cases the largest appliances used in a home are located in the laundry and kitchen, and the trend nowadays is to seperate the circuits, in many cases having the kitchen on two circuits.

if you get the circuit split you'd possibly get away with two 16 amp breakers, or a 16 and a 20.

10mm cable is still pretty big stuff and there'd be getting it to fit into socket outlets and switch terminals. using multiple smaller circuits will allow a smaller cable to be used, givving cost benefits... i don't know about 10mm but even a 6mm circuit of any length gets pretty expensive. 16 amps can usually be done in 2.5mm unless voltage drop is an issue.

also, 10mm twin and earth [if you can get it, the largest i've seen is 6mm] would be extremely bulky and there would be difficulty replicating the path of the existing circuit... most sparkies use a 25mm diameter auger bit for going through studs and noggins.

is there another power circuit you can plug your heater into... thats 10amps gone then and your breaker may stop tripping.

also, as you do seem to be making an effort to get everything compliant, you'll need an RCD if you don't have one already. That complicates things, but if you're getting a sparky to test it it wouldn't take them long to do.

I still strongly believe and suggest that a licenced electrician should do it.

[Ashore]

The reason why the16A circuit breaker is tripping is because recently we replaced the old porcelain fuses with the plug in circuit breakers and also bought some new appliances including heaters. My maximum demand calculated on this power circuit is about 34A so the 32A circuit breaker would not be sufficient but the 10mm cable might be alright still have to find my AS3008 to check this. I can't find the power requirements on the self heating dishwasher , condenser dryer and 5kg washing machine, could you tell me what input power i should use for my calculations?. On the ID for fridge it uses 325W of input power does that sound right? I have given the above appliances guessed values so i could determine my maximum demand calculation of 34A using 50% of the load for each one above including two microwaves at 1600W each and a 2400W heater + 10A for GPOs on circuit. It is a high demand power circuit as all of the above appliances are on the same circuit. Did i calculate the maximum demand correctly?


Hardy as to your calcs starting load on motors can be as high as 6 times running load and Un fortunately the plug in circuit breakers will trip on instant loads in a shorter time frame than the old porcelain ones.

How ofter is all the load on at the same time ?Did you notice any one item coming on line that causes the breaker to trip.

If you have axcess to the existing circuit could you run another circuit to the kitchen or laundry along side the existing one and put a second GPO next to the original to run the fridge washing m/c etc using the existing cable as a pull through ?

One thing about your original post why do you need a 300mm x 300mm trench, that is why so big for 20mm conduit? :confused:


Rgds

[journeyman Mick]

Felixe,
WRT the legislation, the law allows for work to be carried out by people who aren't licensed electricians if it is done under the supervision of a licensed electrician. Otherwise apprentices would not be allowed to do much at all:rolleyes: . Also, on many of the larger jobs a company will have one licensed electrician who is ultimately responsible for that job and a swag of other electricians, some licensed, some not as well as apprentices and trades assistants. I'm not sure if the law requires that the license holder has to be there looking over my shoulder as I do the work, but if anyone ever asks, then yes he was.:D

[hardy]

Thatirwinfella At the moment I am doing research and don’t plan on doing any electrical work until the electrian inspects the job. I still have to find the power input for some appliances to calculate the demand. Yes I agree and was thinking of splitting the circuit so the laundry is separate from the kitchen. If I did this I would be leaving the existing wiring in the kitchen and bedroom and 16A circuit breaker for it. I will rewire the laundry circuit 4mm and use a 20A circuit breaker on the new circuit. The only problem is the only cavity wall in the laundry is not on the same side as the water taps and waste drain. Therefore I would have to have a conduit buried in the cement render on the wall to connect the existing GPO used now or I guess i could use an extension cord on the appliance to the new GPO and hook it on the wall. No I can’t plug the heater in another room because the extension cord would have to be at least 10 metres. I plan to calculate the voltage drop but have not yet as I haven’t measured the distance the cable will travel.
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Ashore
So far I have found that the circuit trips under a few conditions. When the washing machine or dryer is on at the same time as the microwave and heater (on half power). When washing machine and dryer are on at the same time it trips with nothing else. Also if the microwave and the convection microwave and a frying pan are on at the same time. Ideally I would like to run the washing machine and dryer at the same time and I think for this to be possible the existing 10A GPO would have to be replaced with a 15A GPO. Even before the present power problems at times when the washing machine and dryer were on at the same time they would switch off but not blow the fuse. Sorry that was my mistake I meant 30mm height x 30mm deep trench.

[Guy]

I try keep out these electrical questions. I did a 4 year City & Guilds course in Electrical installation as well as a degree in Electrical and electronics engineering. I moved here and may as well throw the certificates in the Bin as no Gov body wanted to recognize them.
I went to the office of chief electrical inspector who agreed I was competent to do electrical installations they even had me sit a dew papers, however under Vic law I would have still been required to go back to tafe for 4 years and serve an apprentiship before I cold get licensed.
I was informed that the licensing system was introduced at the request of unions in the 50's to stop the migrant workers taking Aussie jobs.
I can go to Queensland show the appropriate agency there my certificates and get a Qld license and then come back to Vic and get it transferred straight over.
It is a totally ludicrous system we have here, seeing wholesalers will sell you the stuff hardware shops all sell it and even places like bunnies will even draw you a little pic on how to connect it all together.
In my current line of work when im asked if I can put a power point in I tell them get an electrician in. I generally will rough the cables in whilst im there and get him in to terminate them. And when I rough them in me charge electricians rates.
If i had the nerve i would create a web site with the info on for people to learn, but not have it hosted in Aus

[felixe]

Mick, in answer to your last question, I recently had to recap the Electrical Regs from 2000 and I seem to remember that if an "apprentice/trainee" was working on an electrical job then - yes a licence holder "has to be there looking over your shoulder as you do the work" as they are responsible if you stuff it up, so you should stick to your story.
Besides - in my last post I quoted directly from the Govt publication, a reliable source I think and good to get the facts from the "horses mouth"

[ian]

not trying a deliberat hyjack, but as I understand it, in NSW only plumbers can "legally" change a tap washer which smells suspiciously like a make work scheme for plumbers.
Does "supevision by qualified person" include supervision of the person installing electrical conduit? If so, the regs you're quoting sound like a similar make work exercise


ian

[felixe]

goddamit, are you guys really gonna hassle me until I read this 156 page act again. I'll get back to you shortly!

[felixe]

Ian, if you read my post on page 2 you will see that I posted from the "safe" magazine published by and for worksafe in QLD. This clearly sets out (in a nice neat summary) who can do electrical work in QLD.
Nothing can stop unlicenced people from doing the work, if you know what you are doing (like Mick? - going on his posts he sounds pretty knowledgable) you should not get caught 'cause you probably won't stuff it. But if you are hamfisted and bugger it, causing damage or injury the Govt will throw the book at you!!
Just on another point, the IGA in Mareeba QLD was fined $30 000 for allowing an employee to climb 2 milk crates to count stock on the top shelf, that employee fell and broke a limb. As a result of negligent WHS they were fined. Imagine the penalty for dodgy unlicenced wiring that caused a fire or injury. Never mind the insurance, the fine will (probably) send you broke!

[boban]

Dont want to be argumentative Felixe, but the version of supervision you seem to suggest is not what I've observed on sites. You would never employ an apprentice if that were the case as you wouldn't be doing any work yourself, just watching the kid crawl through the roof or under the house.

[Guy]

Has anyone ever been taken to court by the relevant state bodies and prosecuted for doing there own electrical work? And if so what was the outcome, i could not find anything when i did a search

[felixe]

Page 58 of the QLD Electrical Safety Regulation 2002


57 Performing electrical work without electrical licence

For section 55(3)(d)6 of the Act, the following testing is
authorised—
(a) the testing of electrical equipment by a competent
person, if the testing is required under part 5, division 5
or section 126;7

(b) the testing of the works of an electricity entity by a
competent person;

5 Now see the Queensland Building Services Authority Regulation 2003, section 38.
6 Section 55 (Requirement for electrical work licence) of the Act
7 Part 5 (Electrical installations), division 5 (Workplace electrical installations) or
section 126 (Hiring electrical equipment)

s 58 59 s 59

Electrical Safety Regulation 2002

Example for paragraph (b)—
a competent person testing protection relay operation that is part
of the works of an electricity entity

(c) the testing of electrical equipment by a person, other
than testing mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b), if the
testing does not interfere with the integrity of the
electrical equipment.

Examples for paragraph (c)—
• a person testing a safety switch in a domestic electrical
installation by operating a test button on the safety switch
• a person using an appropriate voltmeter to measure voltage


Now see the Queensland Building Services Authority Regulation 2003, section 38.
6 Section 55 (Requirement for electrical work licence) of the Act
7 Part 5 (Electrical installations), division 5 (Workplace electrical installations) or
section 126 (Hiring electrical equipment)




Electrical Safety Act 2002



Meaning of electrical work

(1) Electrical work is the manufacturing, constructing, installing,
testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing, or
replacing of electrical equipment.

Examples of electrical work—
• installing low voltage electrical wiring in a building
• installing electrical equipment into an installation coupler or
interconnecter
• replacing a low voltage electrical component of a washing machine
• maintaining an electricity entity’s overhead distribution system

(2) However, the following are not electrical work—
(a) installing or removing electrical equipment by
connecting it to electricity, or disconnecting it from
electricity, by a plug and socket outlet;
(b) repairing or replacing non-electrical components of
electrical equipment;

(c) replacing a component forming part of electrical
equipment if the electrical equipment has been designed
so that the component is readily and safely able to be
replaced by a person without electrical knowledge or
skill;

Examples for paragraph (c)—
• replacing a fuse
• replacing the bulb in a light fitting

It goes on and on in definition, Interested? go to the website and download!!


Part 4 Licences

Division 1 Requirements for electrical licences

55 Requirement for electrical work licence

(1) A person must not perform or supervise electrical work
unless—
(a) the person is the holder of an electrical work licence in
force under this Act; and
(b) the licence authorises the person to perform the work.
Maximum penalty—400 penalty units.
(2) Only an individual may be the holder of an electrical work
licence.

(3) A person is not required under subsection (1) to hold an
electrical work licence for the purpose of the following—
(a) performance or supervision of electrical work for the
purpose of installing or repairing telecommunications
cabling;
(b) performance or supervision of electrical work in
practising the person’s profession as an electrical
engineer;
(c) performance or supervision of remote rural installation
work;
(d) performance or supervision of electrical work as part of
the testing of electrical equipment that the person is
authorised to do under a regulation;
(e) performance, as an apprentice, of electrical work in a
calling that requires the apprentice to perform electrical
work;
(f) performance, as a trainee, of electrical work in a calling
that requires the trainee to perform electrical work of a
type prescribed under a regulation;
(g) performance, as a student, of electrical work as part of
training under the supervision of teaching staff at—
(i) a university; or
(ii) a college, school or similar institution conducted or
approved by a department of the State or of the
Commonwealth.

There you go, I knew I read it somewhere:D
So you are covered if you are an apprentice/trainee, a student at school.

I hope this clears it up, if you have anymore questions, don't pester me, call your appropriate Government body and clarify the matter with them.;)

[felixe]

Boban, in reply to what you are saying, "supervision" will always be subjective. I don't know the NSW legislation, have not and will not read the acts and regs as they don't concern my writing of a workplace health and safety document in QLD. I suggest you call the relevant authorities if you are concerned.

[boban]

I seem to remember that if an "apprentice/trainee" was working on an electrical job then - yes a licence holder "has to be there looking over your shoulder as you do the work"

So this is not exactly right, but Mick's in the poo :D

[boban]

No not concerned Felixe, just stirrin'

[journeyman Mick]

So this is not exactly right, but Mick's in the poo :D

No, not me, the sparky was right there, looking over my shoulder all the time!:D Besides which, the question will never come up, as there won't be any problems. I have an Ergon inspector living next door who checked it all before the sparky signed off on it, so it's been doubly checked.:p

Interesting about the $30K fine for the IGA in Mareeba (that's up the road from here about 20 mins drive). Yeah, they should probably have a better training regime safety wise, but did anyone tell that person to use two milk crates to stand on? Was there a ladder available? Another reason I wouldn't want to employ anyone, you're responsible if they injure themselves even if it's through their own idiocy.

Mick

[felixe]

I agree Mick, the question only ever comes up when the s#$t hits the fan, and if the Ergon inspector checks your work then your larfin'!
With IGA, thought this might interest you as you live close by, but I dunno Mick, it was a summary in the "Safe" magazine, but it makes you wonder? We had a similar situation at work, while I was on holidays the "retail Manager" in our adjoining shop decided to start storing stock on top of our coolroom, a good 2-3m high. We don't have a ladder (which is why we never used this for storage before!) so he told his and my staff (in my absence) to use a milk crate to retrieve the stock until he got around to getting a ladder.
I came back a week later, blew my top, borrowed a ladder, removed all the stock!
Idiots!!!!!!

An interesting quote from the article:

"The company (Mareeba IGA) has also reinforced with staff that the use
of milk crates outside their intended design and use is a prohibited
system of work". uhhuh.

[thatirwinfella]

for apprentice supervision, in victoria it is along the lines of;

1st and 2nd years... nothing, and i mean nothing., zip, nada, zilch, can be done with a licenced electrician in the vicinty, ie earshot minimum, preferably visual contact. There can be no access to live circuits.

3rd year... most activities can be done with an electrician checking the quality of the apprentices work periodically. still no access to live circuits, and limited fault finding tasks can be undertaken.

4th year... nearly all activities can be done solely by the apprentice, with an electrican available if required. daily contact is neccessary to keep track of the apprentice's work and provide instruction if required. no access to live circuits, more advanced faultfinding tasks can be done.

despite this hand holding policy, there are some advantages of getting apprentices.. all the dodgy little jobs are done by them rather then someone at a higher rate of pay. Need a spotter? don't get the $30 dollar an hour sparky, get the $7.50 an hour apprentice. and there are some tax breaks as well, but i'm not sure of the specifics.

also, as an apprentice, if i was to do any work without a licenced sparky, eg, what is frequently discussed on this forum, I would have the book thrown at me. A larger, heavier book, just to teach me a lesson. But anyone else gets the smaller book tapped on their wrist.

okay, I'll stop high jacking the thread.

hardy, if you're digging a 300x300 trench think again.... electrical trenches are 600 deep minimum. it's in the regs

[spartan]

Its interesting to note that in Qld the department that looks after licensing of the electrical contractors...is the department of industrial relations.

Is also interesting to note that vast majority of electrical tradesmen who work for companies like ergon, energex, country energy, transgrid and the like...whilst deemed competent to work on HV installations are not 'electrical contractors' so they can't work in residential installations...so you can work on a couple hundred thousand volts but not 240v....So you can string 500kv powerlink but not 1mm lighting cable.:)

I think educate rather than legislate.

Its an interesting question regarding successful prosecutions after people doing their own electrical work......

ASIK successfull prosecutions against individuals (non business), so it means people doing their own installs rather than someone trying to work unlicensed = equals zip.

[Ashore]

hardy, if you're digging a 300x300 trench think again.... electrical trenches are 600 deep minimum. it's in the regs

If you read the original post you will find the trench he is talking about is inside the building to carry conduit not outside so 30mm is fine.

Spartan
"the vast majority of electrical tradesmen who work for companies like ergon, energex, country energy, transgrid and the like...whilst deemed competent to work on HV installations are not 'electrical contractors' so they can't work in residential installations"
One of the main reasons for this is the cost of maintaining a contractors licence when they don't need it is very high
My SIL is in this position but he does keep his licence as he makes a bit off it doing the odd domestic job on the side,:rolleyes:

[hardy]

In my previous posts I had not read AS3018 or reread AS 3008. Now I have a better understanding of what is involved in the job and will continue to research the options finding out the pros and cons of each one. Everybody thank you for the advice.
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Thatirwinfella maybe I didn’t use the right terminology and should of wrote a 30mm width x 30mm deep channel instead of trench in the wall. I had hoped everybody would understand by the size of the conduit 20mm what I meant.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thank you Ashore for pointing that out.
<o:p> </o:p>
Sorry for starting the debate about non electricians doing electrical work.

[Metal Head]

Has anyone ever been taken to court by the relevant state bodies and prosecuted for doing there own electrical work? And if so what was the outcome, i could not find anything when i did a search

Hi Guy,

Isn't it non government personnel who prosecute such people?.

Cheers
David

[thatirwinfella]

"the vast majority of electrical tradesmen who work for companies like ergon, energex, country energy, transgrid and the like...whilst deemed competent to work on HV installations are not 'electrical contractors' so they can't work in residential installations"


there are also seperate licence requirements in most states for low voltage <500 [i think] and high voltage >500 [again, i think]. the average joe blogs domestic who rewires your house or does new homes is unlikely to have the high voltage licence, and many high voltage guys are unlikely to have a low voltage licence. However, there is the crossover in heavy industry. A lot if it is different regulations, some of it would be revenue [but thats the inner cynic in me]

[Ashore]

there are also seperate licence requirements in most states for low voltage <500 [i think] and high voltage >500 [again, i think]. the average joe blogs domestic who rewires your house or does new homes is unlikely to have the high voltage licence, and many high voltage guys are unlikely to have a low voltage licence. However, there is the crossover in heavy industry. A lot if it is different regulations, some of it would be revenue [but thats the inner cynic in me]
Most if not all of those with high voltage certificates in NSW have passed during their training the necessary courses to get them a ( locally called in the game ) a contractors licence , this allowes them to work on low voltage stuff wire up domestic new and existing homes etc , but as I said they dont keep their contractors licence because the cost is too high, and thats not the cynic in me its just another way for the authorities to generate revenue
BTW there are also diffrent rules when you go to sea , I was quallified to work on 3.3kva and anything lower , switch boards , rewire whatever , but on land unable to wire in a GPO, and for those who are quallified and understand marine power generation and distrubition this land based stuff is a doddle:cool: