Always fill up on a cold day [Archive]

silentC

14th July 2006, 01:13 PM

An odd thing happened earlier this week. On the weekend, I filled the car up with petrol. It's an old Mazda Capella and the filler nozzle on the new unleaded pumps doesn't fit properly, so it's easy to overfill. Anyway, I probably put a bit much in this time, but no drama, and I drove away.

Is has been bloody cold lately but on Tuesday we had an unusually hot day. I was sitting in my office when the landlord's daughter came in and told me something was dripping from the car and it smelled like petrol. I went out, and sure enough, there was petrol dripping from just under the rear guard next to the filler. My first thought was a leak, so I popped the flap and opened the filler and out came about a cup full of petrol. Well that's weird I thought, because I'd done a few K's since filling it up, so how could that happen?

It seems that what has happened is that the petrol has expanded, as it does, because it was freezing the day I filled up and hot on this day. I had managed to fit more petrol in there than the tank could hold at the warmer temp, even though I had used a up a bit of it in the meantime.

So the moral to the story is that if you fill up on a cold day, you get more for the same price, because the mass to volume ratio goes up the colder it is. But make sure you don't overfill, or some of the profit runs down the drain. :o

I suppose this is factored into the price but it's worth taking advantage of when fuel is currently around $1.45 a litre :eek:

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 02:13 PM

Hmmmmmmmm............... :cool: Warning: SCIENTIFIC CONTENT. Using that same line of thought, your tank should have shrunk on the cold day & expanded on the warm day.

I find that if I can get a servo where the concrete pad leans away from the pump a bit, I can get a couple of litres more into the tank & more still if I park nose down as well as tilted away from the pump..

I reckon it was most likely a slight tilt on the servo driveway & a slight tilt on your own driveway the opposite direction.

But, don't let this get in the way of a good story and DON'T RUN OUT OF FUEL WAITING FOR A CLOD DAY TO FILL UP.:D

silentC

14th July 2006, 02:17 PM

OK, there are a couple of problems with your suggestion:

1. Petrol expands and contracts at a much greater rate than steel at normal temperatures. Have you ever opened the lid on your lawn mower fuel tin when it's been in the sun? What's that hissing sound?

2. I filled up on the weekend and the phenomenon I have noted took place on Tuesday, so why didn't it happen on Monday? And there was less fuel in the tank on Tues too. Unless someone sneakily topped it up. But at $1.45 per litre, who would be silly enough?

Keep trying though :p

Wongo

14th July 2006, 02:24 PM

Top story Silent.

Hmm, what if I buy a lot of petrol in winter and sell it in summer??.... bingo:D

Anyone interested.

Does it mean you get more beer from a schooner in winter?:D

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 02:27 PM

OK, there are a couple of problems with your suggestion:

1. Petrol expands and contracts at a much greater rate than steel at normal temperatures. Have you ever opened the lid on your lawn mower fuel tin when it's been in the sun? What's that hissing sound?

2. I filled up on the weekend and the phenomenon I have noted took place on Tuesday, so why didn't it happen on Monday?

Keep trying though :p

1. Petrol gives of gas when hot so it pressurises the can.

2. If Monday was cold, see answer 1.

3. you could also be right but I fell asleep trying to get to the answer in this waffle....:D
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmpubacc/581/3032602.htm

Wongo

14th July 2006, 02:28 PM

Or sell hot beer cos' you can sell more. What is that mass to volume thing again?:D

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 02:28 PM

Top story Silent.

Hmm, what if I buy a lot of petrol in winter and sell it in summer??.... bingo:D

Anyone interested.

Does it mean you get more beer from a schooner in winter?:D

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmpubacc/581/3032602.htm

Wongo

14th July 2006, 02:30 PM

I hate reading Cliff.

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 02:36 PM

I hate reading Cliff.

Sook, I'll pick the eyes out of it for you....

Every year, consumers pay for about 200 million more pints of beer and cider than they receive. (Froth)

(fuel)....it is delivered from some refineries warm. By the time it gets to the garage forecourt, it has contracted. Therefore, the petrol retailer actually has less product to sell to the consumer....

.....we are looking at a device called "standard temperature accounting", which basically corrects the volume of petrol sold to the standard temperature, so that you have the equivalent volume bought at 15º, which is the temperature at which the retailer would sell.....

Enough? :D

bitingmidge

14th July 2006, 02:44 PM

I think it explains why you want to wee more after drinking cold beer too.

Obviously your wee-guage measures the volume to be disposed of and sends signals to the overflow bit.

The amount is choofed out, and all seems to be well, but the bit remaining is cold, expands as the body heats it up and well the cap wants to overflow.

Actually there may be something in Cliff's theory too. I've seen quite a few people standing on a slant after drinking a few beers, perhaps if they were a bit more level, they'd only have to go once?

Interesting stuff, this science stuff.

P (Dr Midge to his mates.)
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Wongo

14th July 2006, 02:48 PM

Bugger!! I just had a lot of cold pudding....

silentC

14th July 2006, 02:55 PM

Petrol gives of gas when hot so it pressurises the can
You silly moo, that's what the act of expansion is all about! The molecules in the liquid get further apart until it becomes a gas. They are the same molecules in a different state. Dear oh dear. Tsk :rolleyes:

In fact if petrol didn't exand and contract at a high rate, an engine wouldn't work.

Anyways, I found a link to a paper on a university site and it says I'm right, so nyah nyah. :p

craigb

14th July 2006, 03:03 PM

The amount is choofed out, and all seems to be well, but the bit remaining is cold, expands as the body heats it up and well the cap wants to overflow.

Yes but I've noticed that the speed of this process increases once the initial seal is broken. So that the time between subsequent "overflows" reduces in a non-linear fashion.

Why is this? :confused:

bitingmidge

14th July 2006, 03:03 PM

You silly moo, that's what the act of expansion is all about! The molecules in the liquid get further apart until it becomes a gas. They are the same molecules in a different state. Dear oh dear. Tsk

And beer?

P
:confused:

Wongo

14th July 2006, 03:07 PM

Your right again Silent.

Funny enough I too have done a similar experiment while in university. I took a photo of a glass of beer in summer and took another one in winter….

I failed that year of course. :p

silentC

14th July 2006, 03:18 PM

Knowing you, it was light beer, which we all know is not the same thing at all. No wonder you failed!!

Beer has a lot of gas in it. The gas is released slowly until it eventually goes flat. When you consume beer, the gas collects in your stomach and intestines. This gradually puts pressure on your bladder, thereby reducing the capacity somewhat. This means that over time, your ability to withstand the call of nature reduces.

Added to this, the affect of beer is to make parts of your body more or less important in the the scheme of things than they would normally be. Thus an inebriated brain pays more attention to your, erm, privates than it does to your skin, which is why you can go outside and pee in the bushes in the middle of winter wearing only a pair of shorts and a T shirt. See?

I don't know how this fits in with brewer's droop though :confused:

Wongo

14th July 2006, 03:21 PM

Another amusing thread on Friday. Cheers.

Felder

14th July 2006, 03:23 PM

Every year, consumers pay for about 200 million more pints of beer and cider than they receive.

Each? :eek:

I took a photo of a glass of beer

Hey, they're some nice pitchers, Wongo!
(geddit?? Pitchers? Pictures? And they're beer receptacles?.........I crack myself up. I'll stop now.)

Termite

14th July 2006, 03:29 PM

Fuel from the refinery goes into the tankers at around 38C and shrinkage is allowed for. The average servo loses about 300-500 litres when the underground tanks are topped up and the fuel cools to ground temp, and no allowance is made, the servo wears it. Info from my mate who is a tanker driver for the local distributor.

bitingmidge

14th July 2006, 03:30 PM

the filler nozzle on the new unleaded pumps doesn't fit properly,

I don't know how this fits in with brewer's droop though

I suspect you answered your own question in the original post silent, perhaps the Friday beers are getting to you already?

P
:D :D :D

ernknot

14th July 2006, 03:32 PM

Drink 1P2 is the formula for expansion, amber fluid of course.

Felder

14th July 2006, 03:32 PM

I hate reading Cliff.

Add him to your "Ignore" list....;)

Wongo

14th July 2006, 03:32 PM

silentC

14th July 2006, 03:38 PM

perhaps the Friday beers are getting to you already
Haven't had one yet :( Must get a beer fridge.

And I'll have you know... never mind :o

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 04:03 PM

You silly moo, that's what the act of expansion is all about! The molecules in the liquid get further apart until it becomes a gas. They are the same molecules in a different state.....
Don't moo me ya silly cow... http://www.ubeaut.biz/beat_deadhorse.gif
:D they are not all the same. Some parts boil off as low as 27°C & other parts as high as 225°C.

The vapour parts of petrol leave the liquid faster than other parts, that is what the petrol sniffers are sucking into their brain to expand it (brain, not fuel tank).

In fact if petrol didn't exand and contract at a high rate, an engine wouldn't work.
That is fuzzy logic & you know it. The air/fuel mix burns & expands explosivly.
If you could get the tank hot enough to burn, it might also expand explosivly.http://www.ubeaut.biz/trashcan.gif

Anyways, I found a link to a paper on a university site and it says I'm right, so nyah nyah. :p
I also have a piece of paper that says I'm right & mine is later than yours 'cos I just wrote it so THERE Mr. cow. http://www.ubeaut.biz/mhihi.gif ( Is that what the silent C stands for?:confused: )

Sturdee

14th July 2006, 04:11 PM

It seems that what has happened is that the petrol has expanded, as it does, because it was freezing the day I filled up and hot on this day. I had managed to fit more petrol in there than the tank could hold at the warmer temp, even though I had used a up a bit of it in the meantime.

So the moral to the story is that if you fill up on a cold day, you get more for the same price, because the mass to volume ratio goes up the colder it is. But make sure you don't overfill, or some of the profit runs down the drain. :o

The same for LPG, That's why LPG filling system of tanks is designed to stop when the tank is 85 % full else when the gas heats up the tank would explode.:D :D :D

Peter.

silentC

14th July 2006, 04:12 PM

Is that what the silent C stands for
No, it stands for "Correct", which is what I am and you are not!

:p

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 04:24 PM

http://www.ubeaut.biz/cool.gif

Waldo

14th July 2006, 04:26 PM

That is fuzzy logic & you know it.

G'day,

Fuzy logic, I get that too and its affects are the same on a cold day to a hot day and the results are the same if I've consumed 4 x 375mm cans of ale or 4 x 375mm bottles of ale. :D

silentC

14th July 2006, 04:28 PM

I used to have a pair welding goggles like that :D

Well, that's my contribution to science for the day. Oh look, it's nearly beer o'clock. Wish I had a beer fridge. :(

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 04:31 PM

... Wish I had a beer fridge. :(

When you get one, don't fill it too full just in case the power goes off. :D

Waldo

14th July 2006, 04:31 PM

Oh look, it's nearly beer o'clock. Wish I had a beer fridge. :(

G'day,

I've got 4 (1xstubby, 3 x cans). ;)

silentC

14th July 2006, 04:33 PM

How come if you leave a beer in the freezer, the bottle explodes?

Felder

14th July 2006, 04:36 PM

It's done by the beer-fairy. The beer-fairy punishes you for leaving beer in the freezer by smashing the bottle.

The beer-fairy don't like beer in freezer for too long.....

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 04:36 PM

How come if you leave a beer in the freezer, the bottle explodes?

Don't know, I've never wasted good beer on the experiment. http://www.ubeaut.biz/drunk2.gif

Felder

14th July 2006, 04:56 PM

It's done by the beer-fairy. The beer-fairy punishes you for leaving beer in the freezer by smashing the bottle.

The beer-fairy don't like beer in freezer for too long.....

http://www.sunhingtoys.com/BC.asp
Sure - it looks innocent enough, maybe even 'cute'. But you don't want to see how ugly it gets when it hears of beers in freezers.

Gra

14th July 2006, 05:09 PM

I thought the beer fairy, was that big bloke in the front bar wearing a dress..

Felder

14th July 2006, 05:12 PM

Nah - he's not the real beer-fairy, Gra. He's like the Santa's that you see at shopping centres, trying to create a distraction from the real Santa.

The beer-fairy's that you speak of (as well as the fake Santa's) are too large and burly to creep into your house and smash your frozen beers (or leave gifts under your tree).

Bodgy

14th July 2006, 05:13 PM

The bottles don't explode, the beer which expands (as do all fluids when frozen) simply pushes the top off.

I know this well, as I am so doughy I forget to keep the beer levels up in the fridge, so have to put a pack in the freezer, which I then also forget.

I remember from my time in FNQ that you would usually buy a frozen slab to take away from the boozer. I guess the aluminium tins have enough give to cope with the increased volume of content. Made sense, the frozen slabs, cause by the time you got home they were ready to drink.

Iain

14th July 2006, 05:20 PM

Don't know, I've never wasted good beer on the experiment. http://www.ubeaut.biz/drunk2.gif
But if you use Qld beer it's OK:p
Anyway, I shall take a 'POT' to the local servo and order an unleaded and see how much head it has on it.

Felder

14th July 2006, 05:20 PM

the beer which expands simply pushes the top off.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

IT'S http://www.ubeaut.biz/smilebash.gif THE http://www.ubeaut.biz/bash.gif BEER http://www.ubeaut.biz/shot.gif FAIRY! http://www.ubeaut.biz/nuts.gif

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:http://www.ubeaut.biz/newburn.gif

Must be Friday afternoon...... http://www.ubeaut.biz/fly2.gif

silentC

14th July 2006, 05:28 PM

the beer which expands (as do all fluids when frozen) simply pushes the top off.
See, that was my point. Fluids expand when they are heated and contract when they are cooled, so why do they expand when they are frozen?

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 05:31 PM

But if you use Qld beer it's OK:p ....

Also wouldn't know 'cos I don't buy it.... :cool: I did say GOOD beer. :rolleyes:

I can't see the science (sense) in buying crook beer to stick in the freezer when we all know the result. :D

Cliff Rogers

14th July 2006, 05:33 PM

...why do they expand when they are frozen?

Ask wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)

....at 4 °C, just above freezing, water reaches its maximum density, and as water cools further toward its freezing point, the liquid water, under standard conditions, expands to become less dense. The physical reason for this is related to the crystal structure of ordinary ice, known as hexagonal ice Ih. Water, gallium, bismuth, acetic acid, antimony and silicon are some of the few materials which expand when they freeze.....

Felder

14th July 2006, 05:35 PM

See, that was my point. Fluids expand when they are heated and contract when they are cooled, so why do they expand when they are frozen?
Ask Karl.....
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/

Auld Bassoon

14th July 2006, 09:01 PM

The air/fuel mix burns & expands explosivly.

Err, not quite. A "explosive" combustion is called "detonation" or known as "pinking". The controlled burn in an I/C engine is just that - controlled. It is an evenly expanding flame front that eventually (in mS) consumes the available mixture. In a stochiometrically correct system (around 14.3:1 air:fuel, at STP), this would create a symmetrical burn, but most production engines run somewhat richer mixtures because of combustion chamber shape and variable heat transfer issues. So Yah Boo:p :D :D :D

Tonyz

15th July 2006, 10:18 AM

With LPG its the same I know very acurately what the Falcon does on gas ( also know what I do.... ) I can get an extra 8 litre of gas in during this cold weather tham in summer. Tony

rrich

15th July 2006, 01:01 PM

Very interesting! When I was living and working in Phoenix we would see many overflowing gas tanks in the plant parking lot. Fools would fill up in the early morning close to the plant and the heat of the day would expand the gasoline making their tanks drip fuel.

The theory was that filling up in the cooler morning would get more gasoline for the same price. In reality, the temperature of the gasoline in the underground storage tanks changes very little by time of day or season of the year.