Career Change - tips anyone? [Archive]

Clinton1

10th July 2006, 06:47 PM

After 11 years in the same job, I think its time to move on, a shame as I really enjoy my work.
(not what you expected was it, Gumby!)

I've been thinking about this for a few years now, and at the end of next year I should be in a good financial position to move into a new job.
(I'm a cautious lad! :D )

I'm aware that I'll take a pay cut for the first few years in the new career, and that to make some serious $ I will have to start my own business and employ my own workers so I can suck off their efforts.

Part of the reason for making a new start is the fact that I have some plans for my own business ideas.... which I can consider doing after I work in the industry for a while. This is something that I would really like doing, and an inability to obtain finance at a rate that is acceptable to me has stopped me doing this for about 3 years now.
My alternative plan is to: re-educate myself, work for wages in a new industry for a while, then to start a business in the new industry.

Sooo, other than:
work hard, study hard, tighten your belt, get rid of any non-essential debt, have realistic expectations,

has anyone got some tips from when they changed careers that they can pass my way??

ozwinner

10th July 2006, 06:51 PM

has anyone got some tips from when they changed careers that they can pass my way??

Yeah, DONT DO IT, the grass isnt greener on the other side of the fence.

Al :(

Termite

10th July 2006, 06:53 PM

bitingmidge

10th July 2006, 06:57 PM

The only one I know who's had more careers than me is Barry White, and I reckon you just do what ever takes your fancy at the time.

Follow whatever dream you have, the worst thing that can happen is you'll go broke.

You'll never lose by learning something new, look at Ozwinner, he used to be a rough tough bricklayer, now he's even designing websites on the side! :D He wouldn't have been doing that if he hadn't had a go at flogging crap instead of talking it!

Life's too short to wonder what it would have been like.

P

Toolin Around

10th July 2006, 07:18 PM

Yeah, DONT DO IT, the grass isnt greener on the other side of the fence.

Al :(

You've never been a cabinetmaker have ya. According to TAFE it's the second lowest paid trade, lowest was hair dresser.

Gumby

10th July 2006, 07:21 PM

(no it wasn't what i was thinking....in joke between me and Clinton, sorry people :) )

I changed careers at 35. Big move with a wife, mortgage and 2 little kids. It was the best thing I ever did and ended up in my own very successful business.

You have set out the basics in your post (work hard, be careful etc) so if you know what you are doing mate, have a crack. We only live once and you may as well be happy. Nobody got anywhere without some form of risk.

Daddles

10th July 2006, 07:23 PM

What ya want to do is decide what you LEAST want to do with your life. Then go to Centrelink and tell them that you want to be that. They'll help you and give you all sorts of advice and support, then find you something as far removed as they can ... which should be what you REALLY wanted ;)

Richard

ozwinner

10th July 2006, 07:29 PM

You've never been a cabinetmaker have ya. According to TAFE it's the second lowest paid trade, lowest was hair dresser.

They are crying out for cabinet makers here In Melbourne.

Al :confused:

ozwinner

10th July 2006, 07:32 PM

, look at Ozwinner, he used to be a rough tough bricklayer, now he's even designing websites on the side! :D He wouldn't have been doing that if he hadn't had a go at flogging crap instead of talking it!

P

True, Im even wondering if I can sell cheap an nasty websites to ppl who have no net skills.
Look Ma' we have a web page.....
Gees how hard can it be if i can do it? :rolleyes:

Al :p

Auld Bassoon

10th July 2006, 07:36 PM

They are crying out for cabinet makers here In Melbourne.

Al :confused:

With a few notable exceptions, I think that should read "They are crying about the cabinet makers here in Melbourne" :D :D

Toolin Around

10th July 2006, 07:52 PM

I'm in the same position right now so here's a few of my thoughts. When I first got here I looked at the prospect of becoming a sparky. I have been a joiner cabinetmaker for over 20 years and I do like the trades. But the more I thought about it, the more I ruled it out. I will need to work well past the usual retirement age and in the trades you don't see too many over 55, in fact you don't see all that many past 45! So, before it's too late I'll make the jump to white collar work. My goal is to create more opportunity for myself, which usually means don't take the easy road. For me it's gaining a couple degrees. My goal is to have two business degrees in accounting and management. I feel they would make for a very attractive combination to any perspective employer. It also puts me in a better position to gain the upper hand when competing for management jobs which pay a whole heap better. And I actually think I might be good at accounting, I like numbers for some sick reason. The uni gave me 1 years credit for a science degree but at this stage in my life I can't see the advantage in it so will most likely let it pass (but I do keep an open mind). From what I've seen in the last year, it appears that a degree is still worth something in this country. Where as in North America everyone has a degree which makes them pretty useless. If I were younger I would follow my passions and dreams and become a vet but for me practicality is more important at this time. You'd think that someone who just up and pulls the plug on everything in Canada moves to Australia would be a fairly adventurous sort. But I'm actually fairly reserved and tend to take the safe road. Maybe your the opposite and in that case I say grab hold of your dreams and live them.

Toolin Around

10th July 2006, 07:54 PM

They are crying out for cabinet makers here In Melbourne.

Al :confused:

They're crying for cabinetmakers everywhere but they won't pay a livable wage so people tend to move on fairly quickly

Sturdee

10th July 2006, 08:03 PM

(I'm a cautious lad! :D )

If you're cautious investigate the appropriate business structure for your needs before you set out in your venture.

Plan on protecting your assets in the unlikely event that your business venture fails, obtain good financial and legal advice.

I know accountants and lawyers are not the flavour of the month but money spent on the correct set up will repay you thousand fold if the business goes belly up and you can walk away without loosing your house, car and tools.

Peter.

Clinton1

10th July 2006, 08:40 PM

A long answer for you Toolin, since we've both been thinking about the same thing. It started out as a quick answer, but I got carried away. :D

Stop working for wages.
(bold is yelling I know - call it strong emphasis if you think its rude;) )

If you want to make anything more than the basic cost of living + a carton of beer a week (it used to be a bottle of gin, but times change), then you need to start paying wages - hence my comment on 'Sucking on the efforts of others'.

No employer in their right mind will pay you more than they can get away with (right or wrong - lets not get into a debate on that!).
The employer takes the risk, usually putting up their own house as the collateral (which is an investment of at least a decade of hard work at the minimum).
They want the reward, they don't want to give it to you.

If you think your cabinetmaking skills are worth a pinch of the proverbial, then start saving your $ and start nutting out the business plan to start your own business.

Even with a degree you will be working for the minimum the market can bear, and degrees are becoming very, very commonplace. This is why we are seeing the "skills shortage", a result of the trades labour pool (school leavers) choosing to go get a degree instead of an apprentiship.

If you don't want to start up your own business, consider changing over to carpentry and heading for the mines (the places that are not attractive and where you can have your labour bought at a higher rate due to people not wanting to work there).

The only other way to make more $ is to offer your employer the ability to make more $ from your labour... i.e. innovation, a scarce skill set, new techniques... and even then all you are doing is getting someone to pay your less than you could pay yourself, for the privilege of not having to take on the risk of a business yourself.

Just my slant on things, and the way I see things working.
All those blokes you work for are making money (by employing others), why not you?

There's a pithy quote from some economics dude saying all this in a lot less words, but I can't remember it :confused:
Anyway, thats the way I see things working.
Hijacked my own (serious) thread!

Clinton1

10th July 2006, 08:50 PM

I know the grass is always greener on the other side, till you hop the fence and discover its full of bindies!

The worst case scenario:
I'll be taking a pay cut of around 20K... but I figure that I'll change career and then start at the bottom and work my way into my own business. My eyes are wide open on that. I'll have about 2 years before the chance of coming back to my current career slips away... that'll be about time that I'll make the decision on starting my own business up in the new industry.
I've really put some thought into minimising the chance that I'll have to say to the wife "honey, we can't pay the mortgage this month".

The risk is going to be there, but a lot less risk than if I just took a sideways move and bought a franchise or opened up a sandwich shop.

Can I face the worse case scenario? Is that running your own business and then working nights to get a living wage - yep.
Losing my house.... hmmmm, I'm hoping to create the situation where that will be very hard to happen - does that mean No?

Peter - other than seeing an accountant and lawyer, where can I find the resources to educate myself so that I can understand the pro's and con's of the proposals that the accountants and lawyers will put up as options?
This is one thing that I know that I don't know enough about. ( a strange sentence but an important concept)

RufflyRustic

10th July 2006, 09:11 PM

Clinton

Go for it. I believe you would succeed and succeed admirably. Why? Because you are cautious where it's needed and and and well, I won't make you blush..

Anyway, do what you are doing, keep researching, talk with people who are succeeding in their own business - I think you are already. And never let the naysayer's get you down, just learn from their experiences.

I'm sorry I don't have any web resources, but will keep my eye out for you.

cheers
Wendy

Gra

10th July 2006, 09:32 PM

Clinton,

I have just gone through a sort of carear change recently, (early Mid life crisis... ). Spent 15 years working in financial markets. Got sick of the !@#t that I had to put up with from the newcommers with degrees, who thought they knew everything cause they had a degree and I didnt...

Jupped ship into IT within the same organisation (Joys of a large global business). Couldnt have made a better decision. Having the time of my life, getting paid more than I would have where I was, and getting respect for my years of experience.

So Clinton, go for it. Just make sure you do your homework with the accountants, etc. From your post it looks like you will. I believe that TAFE (At least down here in Melbourne) run courses for people that want to start their own business. If not try your local small business org, or the state Govt should have a small business department, they will have stuff and may even be able to offer advise.

Good luck, from your posts, you seem smart enough to make a go of it, sometimes you just have to go for it.

Cliff Rogers

10th July 2006, 10:25 PM

They are crying out for cabinet makers here In Melbourne....

Al, which part of "the second lowest paid trade" didn't you understand? :D

Bodgy

10th July 2006, 10:30 PM

You've never been a cabinetmaker have ya. According to TAFE it's the second lowest paid trade, lowest was hair dresser.

And hairdressers are prettier too

Sturdee

10th July 2006, 10:36 PM

Peter - other than seeing an accountant and lawyer, where can I find the resources to educate myself so that I can understand the pro's and con's of the proposals that the accountants and lawyers will put up as options?
This is one thing that I know that I don't know enough about. ( a strange sentence but an important concept)

Without knowing the details this must be of a general nature so as the banks say get a product disclosure statement to see if this advice is suitable for you.:D

Most Tafe have short courses to help you to start a new business. Some government departments may also advise on what is needed. Whilst that is very good and essential for someone starting out they are more concerned with the statutory obligations and requirements of a business.

What they won't go into is what happens if it goes wrong. Usually people start of as a sole trader trading under a business name. Then they involve their wife/partner in the business as a partnership.

Changes to that structure can cause problems and would be better to avoid in the first place. But if it goes belly up you/they will have to pay all debts and possible sell their house to cover these debts. The exception is if the house has a War service loan mortgage on it. ( :D )

To avoid that it is usually to incorporate and trade through a company. Companies are distinctly different legal entities from the shareholders and directors. Thus if the company gets into difficulties only the company's assets are at risk and not the assets of the directors or shareholders. It also stops the business being ripped apart in the case of divorce by the correct issue of shares.

Because of this Bank's will require personal guarantees from the directors if they are lending money (unless there are sufficient assets in the company) so it is essential to ensure that borrowings are limited and repaid as soon as possible to reduce your exposure to them. It is better to have many unsecured creditors and no borrowing from a bank then the other way around.

Further, you should only put in the minimum amount of share capital. If further funds are needed lend it to the company but not as directors or shareholders loans but as secured loans covered by a charge over the assets and undertakings of the company. Then if it goes wrong you are one of the secured creditors of your own business.

Whilst this may seem cynical I keep on recalling the words of a well known company liquidator that I had dealings with and he used to say that secured creditors deserve to get their money back but unsecured creditors, being stupid enough to remain unsecured, deserve to loose their money.

I hope this helps a bit and remember to take care of the details. Often the difference in outcome is decided by the little technical details. So get good ongoing professional advice.

Peter.

Clinton1

10th July 2006, 11:22 PM

Thanks Peter.

It seems that you know what you are talking about, and I fully agree that I need to have a long discussion with an accountant and lawyer... I only seem to get onto accountants that offer a service of:
setting up the business structure essentials (names, ABN, trading permits and the like);
setting up an electronic and paper based accounts management system (aimed at them picking up a residual accounts management service), and
doing, and promising to teach you to do, the first 1/4's accounts.

Standard quotes for this run to between $1300 - 1800 to 'establish' a business, with no offer of making sure I understand whats being offered.

I have not met one (an accountant) yet that offers to discuss various business structures, and to discuss the pro's and cons of each, i.e. sole trader versus Inc.
I must not be running into the 'right' ones, or they have enough 'platinum' clients on the books.

Do you know if there is a good Australian book that discusses the various business structures, or a business mentorship scheme in Victoria... or the number of a good accountant?

echnidna

10th July 2006, 11:44 PM

Go and talk to a N.E.I.S. scheme provider.
(New Enterprise Incentive System)
The training is a Certificate 4 in small business management and is excellent.

You will learn far more than any accountant can teach you.

Centre Link can tell you where the nearest ones to you are

johnc

10th July 2006, 11:48 PM

Thanks Peter.

.

I have not met one (an accountant) yet that offers to discuss various business structures, and to discuss the pro's and cons of each, i.e. sole trader versus Inc.
I must not be running into the 'right' ones, or they have enough 'platinum' clients on the books.

Do you know if there is a good Australian book that discusses the various business structures, or a business mentorship scheme in Victoria... or the number of a good accountant?

Clinton,

Sometimes it might be the person you are seeing and sometimes it might be the questions you are asking. Most Accountants will give you that advice but may have missed what you are really after. Sturdee has given a pretty good rundown, although I would just add that you can still end up liable for company debts which is why you were pointed to getting live advice. That does not detract from what is a good summary.

If you book an hour of someones time, take in some written questions to keep yourself on track you should be right. It is really business structure, then how to keep the books, or more to the point how to get started. It is the ongoing relationship that counts remembering it is a resource to use frequently (more so when getting started) from which you hopefully gain enough information to allow you to run that side of the business to enhance your profits and keep on the right side of the tax office, regulators and everyone else who has a vested interest in what is going on. The buck stops with the operator, it is how he/she extacts the needed information that has a lot to do with future success in any venture.

John.

Mirboo

10th July 2006, 11:57 PM

Do you know if there is a good Australian book that discusses the various business structures.....?
Hi Clinton,

"An Introduction to Accounting" by Carrick Martin is not a bad book. It was the prescribed text for the first accounting subject I did as part of my MBA. I have an engineering background so I was fairly unfamiliar with accounting when I started the subject and I found the book fairly easy to follow. It discusses accounting entities such as sole proprietorships and partnerships. It disscusses heaps of other stuff as well.

It is an Australian book as you requested. Carrick Martin, the author, is an academic at Macquarie University. You should check your local library to see if you can borrow a copy.

Rowan

11th July 2006, 08:42 AM

Yeah, DONT DO IT, the grass isnt greener on the other side of the fence.

Al :(

Cant disagree with your more Al (and I usually like your comments)

I have just this year changed jobs after almost 14 years in one job. I have taken a considerable pay cut and am happier than I have ever been. Its not always about the cash.

I was working afternoons and sleepovers as a carer for 13 odd years and totally lost my social life (but it was great for woodworking) I was starting work at 3pm each day and finishing at either 7pm that night or mainly 9am the next day. I was working 3 out of 4 weekends.

Now I work as an intergration aide working 9am-4pm each day. I get a flat salary which means that I get paid for the 12/13 weeks off each year the teachers have!!! I enjoy the work more and am far less stressed,

I know what your thinking and you have to ask yourself just one question! is the cash always worth the stress??? Well is it punk, go ahead make my day ;)

Sturdee

11th July 2006, 10:09 AM

Clinton,

Read the book that Ian S. recommended, do the course that Bob suggested and then you'll be prepared for detailed discussions as John advised.

If you do the above you'll be in a great shape to survive unlike the majority of people that go into business with a great idea without knowing how to cope with actually running the business.

Peter.

dazzler

11th July 2006, 08:09 PM

:D Hi Clinton

i suggest reading the "emyth revisited" by Michael Berger (PM and i can send you my copy). In an nutshell it suggests that being an expert in the field of the small business is in some ways a hindrance.

IE: You are a master mechanic, you open a mechanic shop, the hard thing to running a mechanic shop is actually running the shop, doing the business stuff, but it is easier to fall back into doing the mechaniching and not the running of the business.

It also talks about running the business as a system - this is how we do things here, heres the manual, this is how it gets done everytime. You should therefore be an expert at the system, not the product. Must have knowledge of the product and how to achieve it but thats not where the expertise should be, because when it gets hard you will fall back to what you are comfortable with.

Its the system that is foolproof.

This is a very different way to look at small business. this may mean that if you have an understanding of the product already then perhaps focus on the system of delivering the product as a manager.

The other thing is a small business course. I am 1/4 through a small business course through tafe and it is reaaaaally slow. I would not do this again and would only target what you need to know to run the system.
A lot of the course is not really of use IMO to run a system.

My (disjointed) 2c

good luck

dazzler

JDarvall

11th July 2006, 08:45 PM

All the best on what you decide, Clinton.

When it comes to careers or business or even money, I've pretty much useless. These sort of things have me frowning as soon as I hear them. Thank god the wife deals with it all. A blessing that, even though it makes me a feel a little whipped on occation.

But I do believe.....that one should retain the important simple things in life as apart of your daily routine, no matter what you decide....

I mean, make sure you get enough sleep, and eat well. For me, life starts to run me down when lifes so busy that I can't even find the time for these simple things. And I think that happens to plenty.

And kids.....for me, that changed everything. Starting to believe, that its quite difficult to be a 'good' dad and be successful in business at the same time. Hoping life will change when my kids grow up a little. So it probably a good idea to keep that wallet full of contraceptive devicesat all times,,,,. Love me kids, but jesus, their expensive little buggers. :o

Anyhow, all the best. I think we all need a little change on occation to spice things up.

Bodgy

11th July 2006, 10:01 PM

Clint

As we have previously discussed, with great respect to all other posters on your thread, all pales into complete insignificance compared to:

Do you have enough customers for your product or service?
If not, are you confident that you can attract them in a time frame that keeps you from starving?
Why do you think you can convince your prospects (thats assuming you can attract them) that you are better than the competition, given you have no track record?

Not being negative, just realistic.

Whats kills 'start ups' is not anything to do with their product or service, nor (as is a popular theory) cash flow - that comes later. What kills the new business is not getting enough punters!!

As to how to get them, thats another, much longer (War & Peace), essay.

Clinton1

12th July 2006, 09:39 PM

As to how to get them, thats another, much longer (War & Peace), essay.

Feel free to talk about getting those customers, feel free.

namtrak

12th July 2006, 09:47 PM

Support SWMBO while she studies at UNI. Encourage her with job applications, support her through her career development. Help her develop a career planning path and targets. Then make sure she comes home to a warm house, clean sheets and a cooked meal. Then Bob's your uncle

Cheers

Bodgy

12th July 2006, 09:55 PM

Feel free to talk about getting those customers, feel free.

Clint

Refer to your business plan (yes you surely have one) and let us know what specific service you are to offer, who your target clients are, and the price point.

I'll have a go then.

Lignum

12th July 2006, 10:03 PM

Clint

Refer to your business plan (yes you surely have one) and let us know what specific service you are to offer, who your target clients are, and the price point.

I'll have a go then.

Thats what i wanna know:) Not in detail, but whats Clint selling? a product or service.

Clinton1

12th July 2006, 10:31 PM

Namtrac - thats what I'm doing (supporting the missus to study), but she wants to take a few years off and have kids... otherwise I'd be happy to be the house husband.:D :)

I'm selling a service. Financial Planning.
There is a severe lack of FP's at the moment, and the industry is growing rapidly.
I can get the educational requirement finished next year, then use long service and a lot of unused holiday time to give myself about 8 months in the new job (on the lower pay rate) while still being paid my normal wage :) .

I will have no problem getting a job as a FP, and imagine that I will have a lot of choice in employers. Sounds arrogant, but I've had offers already without even getting the educational requirements sorted out.
After doing 12 months I should be able to get my 'certification' so that I am able to work on my own.

After this I will be:
1. offering to buy out an existing office with its client list,
2. setting up my own office if there is the market opportunity, or
3. leasing an existing office with its client list.

Clinton1

12th July 2006, 10:46 PM

The devil is in the detail, however I am pretty confident that my people, management and administrative skills will see me through. I will be offering to buy out an owner, who will retain a residual ownership component (@25%), under a partnership scheme. This should see the old owner being fairly actively engaged in making sure my business succeeds, and that they don't 'poach' back the client list.

In the industry low wages are generally paid for the first year, while the employees builds up a client list - then wages are paid out of the client list earnings. You quickly learn if you will survive - luckily I can go back to my current job for up to 2 years!

Target client market will be retiree's with a need to have funds under management.
Price point - there are commissions paid by the funds that are looking for investors, unless you can raise millions then you have no say on the commission.

I don't have a business plan yet, that will come when I have the office that I wish to buy or set up in my sights. Basically I know that I can live off the wages that are paid in the industry. I do a lot of similiar work (interpretation of "real situation and requirements" against a "legislative framework that limits your freedom of action" and then make tactical and strategic decisions:p ).

I have a few innovative business concepts that I'd be trying, which I don't want to go into here.
One of which is the fact that I know a business that is a commercial lending brokerage house that I will be able to approach and have them send me all their personal investment customers, as they don't offer personal FP services. Yet.

One of the reasons that I have not worried about a business plan is because while they are a powerful tool, a lot of the business owners that I've managed to talk about starting up and running a business have such a plan..... and they just make it all up and continually revise it. It seems to be used as a "where we are and where we have been" tool more than anything.
That said, I will be doing one when I am much closer to the leap point.

Bodgy

12th July 2006, 10:49 PM

Cliont

The normal go in FP is that you work for a company, usually one of the financial institutions, after a while and assuming your make your numbers, you then quit and take with you a non-exclusive 'dealership' for their products.

This will give you some referrals and (Naturally) you take you client list with you.

FP is a great and growing business. Unfortunately there are an awful number of cowboys in the game. Both incompetent and malfeant - go for the biggest com regardless of suitability.

Off the top of my head, referrals from your base are the best source of new business.

Marketing to your target base is a relatively simple business.

So I'd say go for it, in the fullness of time.

If you totally f@@@ up, then you can get a job in an instant (as you say).