Connecting fluros to 3pt plugs [Archive]

6th July 2006, 03:06 PM

I've just wired up several fluros to three point plugs, something I've done before, and they are working fine. I would now like to wire three together (piggy back style) leading to a pull switch leading to a three point plug.

I'm aware of the understandable reluctance of forum members to offer electrical advice , but as this is a presumably fairly simple procedure, and if I move I will take the lights with me, would I be foolish to attempt this wiring process? And if so what precautions should I take?

atregent

6th July 2006, 03:27 PM

I might be way off here, but I was of the understanding that any non permanant wiring can be done by anyone. After all, Dick Smith sell kits for electronic boffins (yes, I was one once) that contain mains wiring. Even when I went to TAFE we made mains operated doo-dads (but that was quite a number of years ago, so things may have changed since then)

echnidna

6th July 2006, 03:53 PM

you could always plug them into a single switched power board.

Termite

6th July 2006, 03:56 PM

I did mine like that, just run them in parallel.

doug the slug

6th July 2006, 08:12 PM

I might be way off here, but I was of the understanding that any non permanant wiring can be done by anyone.

Correct, i believe. if it plugs into a powerpoint you can wire it up yourself.
thats how ive done my flouros in the shed. i used old 30 metre 15 amp leads with 10 amp plugs and just cut them to length. all you have to do is connect blue to blue and brown to brown and earth to earth. I connected 5 tubes up in parallel for my shed which is less than 200 watts, you could probably put 10 times that many on one lead

Cliff Rogers

6th July 2006, 09:06 PM

Apart from getting the plug wired correctly, the only other thing I can think of is that any power outlet/device that can be switched from a distance must be in view of the operator while activating the switch.

Can you see the lights & the power socket that they are connected to from where you pull the cord to activate them?

6th July 2006, 09:11 PM

Thanks for the replies.

The wiring difficulty with the arrangement I have in mind is with the pull switch. I've already bought it and it's not at all obvious which wires go where. As I said in the opening post, the arragement is three fluros in a row leading to a pull switch leading to a 3pt plug (which plugs into a power point attached to a roof beam (it's a strange shed).

I probably whouldn't be using a pull switch with this sort of set up, but I have to due to the power point being out of reach (thelights I've already installed run to accessible power points.

6th July 2006, 09:13 PM

Can you see the lights & the power socket that they are connected to from where you pull the cord to activate them?

Yes

Wood Butcher

6th July 2006, 09:23 PM

Correct, i believe. if it plugs into a powerpoint you can wire it up yourself.

No. If it is mains powered (440v, 240v or 110v) you are supposed to get a licensed electrician to do it. This includes wiring lights that are to be connected to a mains supply. If anything happens and it is found out that you did the wiring connection yourself all liability will be placed on you.

doug the slug

6th July 2006, 09:33 PM

I hope it goes without saying that you have the plug fully disconnected when doing any of the wiring. unplug it! dont just turn it off! put the plug in your pocket if you can.

switches usually arent real difficult to work out. they just break the continuity of the circuit when off and reconnect when on. if you cant work out the switch, think twice about wiring up the flouros yourself too. if you need help working out the switch go and get a cheap multimeter from dick smiths or simiular and test teh connections with the switch open ans well as closed, then it should be self-evident (do this with the switch not plugged in of course, using the resistance meter, not voltage

6th July 2006, 10:11 PM

I hope it goes without saying that you have the plug fully disconnected when doing any of the wiring.

I'm ultra careful Doug. I turn the power off at the switchboard as well as removing the plug

switches usually arent real difficult to work out.

I can usually get my head around them, but this pull switch is odd, and the workings are concealed so it's hard to see what leads where. Anyway I'll take all the precautions you mentioned and if still in doubt contact an electrician (if I can get one to return my calls, let alone deign to visit me).

doug the slug

6th July 2006, 10:42 PM

No. If it is mains powered (440v, 240v or 110v) you are supposed to get a licensed electrician to do it. This includes wiring lights that are to be connected to a mains supply. If anything happens and it is found out that you did the wiring connection yourself all liability will be placed on you.

For items that are hardwired in, that is correct. if it plugs in to a power point you can do it yourself.

how many woodturners have made a standard lamp or bedside light and wired it up themselves? how many of us have replaced the power supply in a PC? If you can post any evidence that you must be licensed to workon a plug-in appliance please do so cos im sure you dont.

Cliff Rogers

6th July 2006, 10:56 PM

Now, in Queensland, if it has a removable power cord & you don't go poking around inside the PC power supply, you are OK.
Otherwise, you need at least a restricted license to work on the plug & cord or a power supply or any device with a hardwired cord, even if it has a 3 pin plug on the wall end.
Further to this, if you do this sort of work as a business, the business also has to have a license as well as the employee doing the work. :mad:
Money grubbing, bureau-bloody-cratic mongrels. :mad:

echnidna

6th July 2006, 11:28 PM

yerr bin surfin too many seppo sites Doug,
they can play with their eleccy things,
we can't, we gotta use sparkies.

doug the slug

7th July 2006, 12:30 AM

yerr bin surfin too many seppo sites Doug,
they can play with their eleccy things,
we can't, we gotta use sparkies.

I dont surf seppo sites

heres a good queensland aussie site
www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/E/ElectricalSA02.pdf (http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/E/ElectricalSA02.pdf)

heres the relevant sections

15 Meaning of electrical installation

(1) An electrical installation is a group of items of electrical
equipment.
(2) However, a group of items of electrical equipment is an
electrical installation only if—
(a) all the items are permanently electrically connected
together; and...
(4) For subsection (2)(a)—
(a) an item of electrical equipment connected to electricity
by a plug and socket outlet is not permanently
electrically connected...
(n) work performed by a person on electrical equipment
if—
(i) the electrical equipment is not energised

so once its unplugged you can do it

Further to this, if you do this sort of work as a business, the business also has to have a license as well as the employee doing the work. :mad:
Money grubbing, bureau-bloody-cratic mongrels.

Part 4 Licences

Division 1 Requirements for electrical licences

55 Requirement for electrical work licence

.....
(2) Only an individual may be the holder of an electrical work
licence.

so why does the business need a license, Cliff?????

doug the slug

7th July 2006, 12:35 AM

yes its a big document and i havent read all of it so if theres something ive missed please tell me

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 07:55 AM

I have a Test and Tag Certificate for testing the tools, leads and machines for my old work.

We were told at the course by the government certified trainer that unlicensed people are not allowed to do any work on equipment that is to be connected to a mains supply. We are not even allowed to repair a extension lead if it is damaged. It should be put aside and given to a licensed electrician to be repaired.
The quote you mentioned above only defines what an "electrical installation" is, it says nothing about connecting it to power!

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 08:08 AM

This is section 18 of the QLD Electrical Safety Act 2002, I'm sure that every state has a similar act the will say the same thing

18 Meaning of electrical work
(1) Electrical work is the manufacturing, constructing, installing,
testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing, or
replacing of electrical equipment.
Examples of electrical work—
• installing low voltage electrical wiring in a building
• installing electrical equipment into an installation coupler or interconnecter
• replacing a low voltage electrical component of a washing machine
• maintaining an electricity entity’s overhead distribution system
(2) However, the following are not electrical work—
(a) installing or removing electrical equipment by
connecting it to electricity, or disconnecting it from
electricity, by a plug and socket outlet;
(b) repairing or replacing non-electrical components of
electrical equipment;
Examples for paragraph (b)—
• repairing hydraulic components attached to an electric
motor
• replacing a drive belt on a washing machine
(c) replacing a component forming part of electrical
equipment if the electrical equipment has been designed
so that the component is readily and safely able to be
replaced by a person without electrical knowledge or
skill;
Examples for paragraph (c)—
• replacing a fuse
• replacing the bulb in a light fitting
Note that sub-section 2 defines non electrical work (which non-licensed consumers can do) as basically plugging in or unplugging something from a power point or changing a light bulb or fuse. IT IS ILLEGAL to do anything else yourself. If anything happens kiss your insurance goodbye and expect to be held liable for any damages etc that may result.

Cliff Rogers

7th July 2006, 10:19 AM

...
so why does the business need a license, Cliff?????

Section 56 of the Electrical Safety Act 2002 (http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/E/ElectricalSA02.pdf) (PDF, 788 KB) states that an electrical contractor licence is required for businesses carrying out electrical work for others.

This costs us an extra $240 a year on top of the license for the bloke who does the work & we also have to have extra insurance under Section 43 of the act including a Consumer Protection Liability & that is a TOTAL waste of our money 'cos we don't ever do that sort of testing & certifying.:mad:

All we do is test & tag & you don't need Consumer Protection Liability for that.

echnidna

7th July 2006, 10:26 AM

On the bnasis of what you have provided,

Read it again!!!

(1) An
electrical installation is a group of items of electrical
equipment.
(2) However, a group of items of electrical equipment is an
electrical installation only if—
(a) all the items are permanently electrically connected
together; and...
(4) For subsection (2)(a)—
(a) an item of electrical equipment connected to electricity
by a plug and socket outlet is not permanently
electrically connected...
(n) work performed by a person on electrical equipment
if—
(i) the electrical equipment is not energised

(2) However, a group of items of electrical equipment is an
electrical installation only if— all the items are permanently electrically connected together; and an item of electrical equipment connected to electricity by a plug and socket outlet is not permanently electrically connected...

Pulpo

7th July 2006, 10:57 AM

JB

You are not sure about wiring up a pull switch?

I have never wired one either.

Do you know how to wire a normal switch, say light switch?

Would it matter on a normal switch if up is "on" and down is "off" or vice versa? No.

I would suggest the same with a pull switch.

But I have a multimetre to determine when the circuit is open [off] or closed [connected].

To wire a switch you use the "active" wire.

I hope this helps.

However I am NOT a sparkie.

Is the power outlet connected to the RCD? Some insurance.

Cheers

Pulpo

Bob38S

7th July 2006, 12:13 PM

This is section 18 of the QLD Electrical Safety Act 2002, I'm sure that every state has a similar act the will say the same thing

Note that sub-section 2 defines non electrical work (which non-licensed consumers can do) as basically plugging in or unplugging something from a power point or changing a light bulb or fuse. IT IS ILLEGAL to do anything else yourself. If anything happens kiss your insurance goodbye and expect to be held liable for any damages etc that may result.

This is what I was also led to understand. You can buy all of the components, wire, plugs etc but you can't connect them to the 240V. I have built kits [240V] before and run wires but and this is a big BUT before anything was connected to the mains I had it checked out by my sparkie - either I took it to him or he called out to my place. It is great reassurance for my part [haven't got anything wrong yet] and peace of mind, also a great chance for a beer and yarn when we are finished. :D
To state the bleeding obvious - when it's all connected up you can't see the electrical mistake but you sure as hell can feel it - or worse - someone else can.:(
Bob

thatirwinfella

7th July 2006, 06:05 PM

I've looked through AS/NZS 3000:2000 [the wiring rules/legal requirements of an electrical installation for those not in the loop] and as long as it is an appliance [not hard wired and connected by plug and socket] you don't actually seem to be doing anything illegal. highly dangerous, reckless and irresponsible yes, but illegal, no.

I'm from an electrical background and could tell you exactly how to wire these up, but i believe that it should be left to the professionals with training, not someone with enough knowledge to be dangerous.

If you do insist on doing it yourself just follow these points;

earth the bloody thing!! is there is any metal at all on the light fittings, earth it. if it's all plastic fantastic, don't worry.

don't use tps as flex lead. use flex lead as flex lead. get a decent quality and appropriately rated flex lead. ask you're local dick smith or jaycar nerd if you need help selecting it.

follow the instruction on the plug top to the letter. Even better, follow the warning about only licenced electrician's working on electrical equipment.

don't let the cable rub on anything where it exits the back of the light fitting. ask about cable glands.

before you plug it into to use it, at the very least get it tagged. it's about ten dollars a lead [at the most] and will give you some peace of mind if you pass. if you don't... throw it all out and just buy some lamps.

finally... are your house, your belongings and your family worth the money you'll save over getting a licenced sparky to do job or just buying ready made?

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 06:15 PM

echnidna

7th July 2006, 06:28 PM

Australian Standard only details how to wire it up. It has NOTHING to do with the legality of doing electrical wiring. IT IS ILLEGAL to do any work on electrical goods in Australia unless you are a licensed contractor!

Now that may be a bit questionable in view of modern regulations.

Someone holding an appliance testing qualification could probably legally repair the appliance as long as the appliance passed all testing requirements

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 06:52 PM

Now that may be a bit questionable in view of modern regulations.

Someone holding an appliance testing qualification could probably legally repair the appliance as long as the appliance passed all testing requirements Not in QLD if they are not licensed. I can test an appliance and if it is unsafe a licensed person must do the repairs. Once the repairs are done I can retest it and presuming it passes, tag it.

thatirwinfella

7th July 2006, 07:43 PM

Eddie Jones

7th July 2006, 07:50 PM

For items that are hardwired in, that is correct. if it plugs in to a power point you can do it yourself.

how many woodturners have made a standard lamp or bedside light and wired it up themselves? how many of us have replaced the power supply in a PC? If you can post any evidence that you must be licensed to workon a plug-in appliance please do so cos im sure you dont.

With you all the way, Doug. Quite legal. If I could lay my hand on my SAA Wiring Rules, I would quote the reference. Anyone got it handy?

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 08:32 PM

ele__13

7th July 2006, 09:02 PM

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
As a Qualified & Licenced Amatuer Radio Operator i have personally helped and constructed on my own 240 volt equipment ... I am NOT a licenced electrician BUT i am qualified to make my and repair own equipment and i have done so ...

my equipment is plugged into the 240 volt mains but is not hard wired i can do this or is there something that the licencing body here in australia hasnt told me ?????
i have done this for the past 16 years and im sorry im not stopping doing wat i love doing for my hobby and that involves my construction of 240 v equip the only authorisation i need for this is from the ACMA , and this is only because i transmit on the Amateur Bands well so be it , the grumpy people in the world will get over it cheers all jules

ps its good to be back work has settled and life is goood :D:D:D:D:D:D

echnidna

7th July 2006, 09:12 PM

ps its good to be back work has settled and life is goood :D:D:D:D:D:D
[/b]

Good to see you back Jules.

The radio, TV and electronics bit is interesting as most electricians can't do that sorta work. So there is an oddity in the regs somewhere.

Another odd thing is some appliances such as wall mounted hot water urns are a technicians field as they are a combination of plumbing and electrical that would stymie most sparkies or plumbers.

doug the slug

7th July 2006, 09:22 PM

Here it is although it is now known as "AS/NZS 3000:2000 Wiring Rules"
http://www.standards.com.au/PDFTemp/Previews/OSH/as/as3000/3000/N3000.pdf

I can't find anywhere in there that mentions about legality of who does the work.

Thats great stuff, i just spent 10 minutes scrolling through the 16 page document that link takes you to. Its the 16 page index of the document that the last page tells you how to buy. it doesnt shed any light on the argument at all.

It seems nobody can find any reference at all that tells me i cant wire up my own lights as long as they arent plugged in when i work on them

ozwinner

7th July 2006, 09:31 PM

doug the slug

7th July 2006, 09:39 PM

Not so Rowan.
Anyone can wire up 240v if it is not hard wired, ie, if it has a flex.
So if you want to wire up stuff that plugs into a 240v outlet, you can do it.

Al :)

Thanks, Al,
but just to qualify it a little, you can do it on your own equipment for yourself, not commercially, and that seems to be where the confusion is

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 09:57 PM

OK, made a couple of phone calls to sparkie mates to get the inside scoop, here it is -

There is nothing stopping you from wiring something portable up yourself, the legislation gets a little murky on this. BUT.....

You may not use it in a commercial situation without it being tested and tagged by a licensed operator. ALSO...
If anything happens and it can be proved that you, as a unlicensed person, carried out the work, your insurer most likely will void your insurance and if there is any other damages you could be held liable for them too.

So, if you do the work I can't find anything to say definatively that you can or can't, but be prepared for the consequences if anything bad happens as a result!

doug the slug

7th July 2006, 11:01 PM

4 hours ago you posted:

Australian Standard only details how to wire it up. It has NOTHING to do with the legality of doing electrical wiring. IT IS ILLEGAL to do any work on electrical goods in Australia unless you are a licensed contractor!

then 2 hours ago:

Here it is although it is now known as "AS/NZS 3000:2000 Wiring Rules"
http://www.standards.com.au/PDFTemp/...3000/N3000.pdf (http://www.standards.com.au/PDFTemp/Previews/OSH/as/as3000/3000/N3000.pdf)

I can't find anywhere in there that mentions about legality of who does the work.

2 posts that had nothing to do with the legalities of the outcome but still telling the world i didnt know what i was talking about, and then!!!!! hey what happened to doing the research befoe we post????

OK, made a couple of phone calls to sparkie mates to get the inside scoop, here it is -

There is nothing stopping you from wiring something portable up yourself,.

thank you!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

an apology would be nice, i did PM you earlier but you seem to have run off with your tail between your legs

Wood Butcher

7th July 2006, 11:08 PM

Please add the last bit from my reply not just the bit that makes me sound like an idiot.

So, if you do the work I can't find anything to say definatively that you can or can't, but be prepared for the consequences if anything bad happens as a result!

ozwinner

7th July 2006, 11:30 PM

I closed this thread after Woodbutcher re-opened it.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated from anyone.
Not everyone knows everything about everything, thats what make this forum so entertaining, lets keep it that way.

Al :)

ubeaut

8th July 2006, 01:21 AM

If you have to ask, you obviously don't know what you're doing, whether you're licenced or not or whether you need to be licenced or not, isn't the point.

The point is this: If you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it.....

When you burn down your house, shock yourself into a coma or kill someone remember this......... IT'S YOUR BLOODY FAULT!

If you have to ask and it all goes wrong, prepare yourself for the consequences they will be serious.

.
If you have to ask DON'T!!!

If you have to ask..... ask for the name of a good electrician.
.