SBS: Cutting Edge "The Meth Epidemic"

[scooter]

Gday all

Anyone else catch this (http://www.sbs.com.au/whatson/index.php3?id=1273) show last Tuesday on SBS?

As the link covers, it was all about the impact & spread of methamphetamines in the US.

More links... looks like you broadbanders can watch it on the net.
Download program (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/view/)
Online discussion with filmmaker about meth (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/02/10/DI2006021001526.html)
More info (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/Family/mch/substanceabuse/drugs/meth.html)

Scary stuff.


Cheers.................Sean

[craigb]

Scary stuff.


Why??:confused: :confused:

(Didn't watch the show, don't do drugs. I just wonder why you think it's scary??)

[Exador]

Why??:confused: :confused:

(Didn't watch the show, don't do drugs. I just wonder why you think it's scary??)

The effects and the addictiveness are quite scary for anyone with kids. I used to smoke pot as a young bloke, even had the odd acid trip and magic mushroom (I hope you're not reading this Dan:p), but those were pretty harmless compared to what this stuff does to its users. I can only hope the authorities get it under control quickly, before my kids are old enough to be exposed to it.

[kiwigeo]

Why??:confused: :confused:

(Didn't watch the show, don't do drugs. I just wonder why you think it's scary??)

Spend some time In NZ and see what theyre dealing with over there. Meth makes people crazy and violent....people end up dead, often innocent people who aren't doing drugs. Innocent kids who's parents are hooked on meth suffer. That concerns me.

[Clinton1]

Why is it scary?

What got me most 'intrigued' was how cheap the drug is.
It appears that when you start out you can easily afford it from your average salary/pocketmoney.
As it is so addictive you very quickly get hooked.

Initially though - due to the cheap purchase price it is pretty much the 'fast food' of drugs; even a 14 - 16 year old can become an addict just by using their pocket money.

It seems that heroine and cocaine are drugs that you have to 'work at' to afford (i.e. be fairly industrious in your b&e, dealing or prostitution), so the cost limits the initial 'take-up" rate somewhat.

With this stuff it seems that $50 and a long weekend will see you hooked, then you can stay a user/addict by having the rent subsidy of the dole keep you in housing, eating out of bins and handing your welfare $ to the dealer. Cheap and 'easy'.

Humans - and they reckon we are the smartest creatures on the planet :confused:

[Clinton1]

Meth’s destructive power comes from its impact on the user’s brain. “Dopamine is the brain’s primary pleasure chemical,” says UCLA professor and meth expert Dr. Richard Rawson. “If you take a hit on a pipe or an injection of methamphetamine, you get an increase from zero to about 1,250 units. … This produces an extreme peak of euphoria that people describe as something like they’ve never experienced.” Researchers have found that meth creates this high by destroying the very part of the brain that generates dopamine – and makes them unable to feel pleasure from anything except more meth. “It actually changes how the brain operates,” Rawson continues. “It’s a wonder anyone ever gets off meth.” According to the World Health Organization, meth abuse worldwide is worse than that of cocaine and heroin combined.

[ozwinner]

Yep I saw the show and it is scary as to what these ppl on meth are capable of, they feel no pain, have no remorse, so if you get in their way of the drug look out.

Al :(

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The worst of it is that it's just kitchen chemistry using over-the-counter drugs. Sure, many chemists are aware of the problem and make it difficult to buy pseudo-ephedrine based medications, but others don't. Similarly, most pills contain blockers to prevent extraction of the psuedo-e, but many don't. Often, all it takes to get around a blocker is a slight change in the method of refluxing... and there are several different methods. Lower yield & quality perhaps, but that doesn't worry the refluxers. DAMHIKT. :(:(

Marijuana at least takes a few months and ground space. Heroin & cocaine are imports. As such, there's a high level of risk to the... involved parties behind production/distribution. But this "new" speed? A kitchen, some glassware and a free weekend.


That is scary enough for me.

[Iain]

(i.e. be fairly industrious in your b&e, dealing or prostitution)
I'm probably going to regret this as it may seem so obvious, but what is b&e?

[ozwinner]

Bacon and eggs?

Al :p

[Clinton1]

Break and Enter
:D
(didya think it was something kinky?)

[ozwinner]

All I could think of is food.

Al :D

[scooter]

Craig & Clinton, whether or not "scary" was the right adjective to use, my concern is for the potential impact of this stuff on society in general, not least my family & yours.

Am I curled up in the foetus position terrified about the stuff? No.

Was "scary" the right word to use? I dunno, will get the Rogets out next time :D

This stuff is more of a worry than my choice of words though.


Cheers...............Sean

[dazzler]

Hey Scooter

Scary is the right word for meth. I think Clinton was agreeing with you though.

I always have a wee shake of the head when people blame drug addicts for thier plight.

Meths a shocker and can destroy a life in an instant.

cheers mate

[silentC]

Simple. Take psuedo e off the market. It's not like it saves lives or anything. It's sole purpose is to make people who have the flu feel better so that they can 'soldier on' and infect all their work mates and fellow commuters instead of staying in bed where they should be.

[bitingmidge]

I always have a wee shake of the head when people blame drug addicts for thier plight.

So now this is MY fault too?? :eek:

Get real dazzles!

Why is no-one able to take responsiblity for their own actions?

Taking the first dose of any drug, is taking a deliberate chance. It's a deliberate act, and the consequences are known or should be known. No excuses.

"I'm sorry your honour I was so drunk/stoned that I can't be responsible for my actions."

Crap.

Now tell me why I'm wrong!

P
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Wood Borer]

Simple. Take psuedo e off the market. It's not like it saves lives or anything. It's sole purpose is to make people who have the flu feel better so that they can 'soldier on' and infect all their work mates and fellow commuters instead of staying in bed where they should be.


I didn't see the program but perhaps it could be scary if you feel you have no control or influence on the spread and harm of these drugs.

Convince the politicians that the effect of these drugs may adversely affect the economy and share prices and they will act swiftly and pour our money into closing down these evil operations.

[Iain]

So now this is MY fault too?? :eek:

Get real dazzles!

Why is no-one able to take responsiblity for their own actions?

Taking the first dose of any drug, is taking a deliberate chance. It's a deliberate act, and the consequences are known or should be known. No excuses.

"I'm sorry your honour I was so drunk/stoned that I can't be responsible for my actions."

Crap.

Now tell me why I'm wrong!

P
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Subtle Mr Midge, subtle, but I do agree:)
I even worked with some social workers once who were known to quote 'I'm glad I used drugs when I was a student, now I can relate to the addicts'
What absolute crap.

[Clinton1]

Nah Scooter, I think you have got me wrong... I totally agree that scary is the correct word - I agree with you. (thats if you haven't changed your mind :p )

Scary because its cheap enough for the school yard + it gets a person addicted very quickly.
A young person only has to stuff up once and they might be an addict for years to come.
That scares me.

[dazzler]

Hi Midge,

I once agreed with you. However after spending a large part of 18 years locking up said druggies the disturbing part is the familiar history that most, not all, seem to have.

Most have had seriously screwed up family lives where the decision whether or not to use the drug is less import than the decision to please the person or group that they are trying to be a part of.

This is going to sound like I'm soft. I am far from it. But watching druggies have druggie kids and all they know is drugs then the decision to be a druggie is not a simple one.

All children, and most druggies start out at a young age, dont possess the ability to see what the consequences of thier actions will be. Just as young males dont realise that driving like an idiot may kill them.

My view over the years has changed. Most drug addicts are addicted because of factors they had little control over. Adults like ourselves struggle to understand that (IMO) because we have the life experience and stength that if a 30something paedophile offered us friendship we would smash them in the face, not be befriended by them.

I use this analagy with woodworkers to show the pull of drugs;

Think of the nicest tablesaw you could ever imagine - sliding table, electronic rise and fall, soft start etc etc....now to get it all you need to do is

a) burgle your neighbour
b) rip off your family
c) have s$# relations with filth

Would you do it for that nice TS?

Every day for that nice TS?

I wouldnt, I would suggest most wouldnt. But kids do it because of a stupid decision that most dont have the ability to stop.

They are victims, its not PC on this forum to say that, but thats what they are. I am of the view that if you are locked up for an offence and drugs are the cause, then a mandatory, prison type of rehab is what is needed.

cheers

dazzler

[bitingmidge]

I once agreed with you. However after spending a large part of 18 years locking up said druggies the disturbing part is the familiar history that most, not all, seem to have.
<snip>
They are victims, its not PC on this forum to say that, but thats what they are. I am of the view that if you are locked up for an offence and drugs are the cause, then a mandatory, prison type of rehab is what is needed.


I once agreed with you! (and still do sort of, specially at least on the last bit above), but think that "PC" and "this forum" is a rather oxymorinic juxtaposition!

All issues relating to the use of drugs, whether they be legal or otherwise are somewhat vexed.

The trouble is, that for the press, covering the problem is a lot easier and more interesting than proposing a solution, or for that matter contributing to it. I don't suspect that too many potential users will have accidentally tuned in to SBS that night, nor to the 4Corners reposrt either.

Cheers,

P

[Schtoo]

Simple. Take psuedo e off the market. It's not like it saves lives or anything. It's sole purpose is to make people who have the flu feel better so that they can 'soldier on' and infect all their work mates and fellow commuters instead of staying in bed where they should be.

Not quite.

I take pseudo e sometimes. I can actually say that, since I buy it here and it's only been on the market here since last year that I know of. Before that, strictly verboten.

Anyways, you might be interested that I have never had 'the flu' that I can remember, and excusing the last few years getting adapted to the colds here, have not had a cold of any significance for about 15 years.

I do take pseudo e occasionally (like twice a year) to make things tolerable when the allegies hit. It's nice to get a few hours rest from dumping litres of goo out of your nose...

That's all I need(ed) it for, and with any luck, I won't need it again unless allergies give me trouble again. Been pretty good so far.


If you can do something to it to make it unable to be made into something else, then I would suspect that those who do such kitchen chemistry will resort to some other way of getting it.

Just the outright banning of something isn't going to stop a suitably driven person with sufficient smarts to find a way to circumvent the regulations/laws.

I wouldn't be overly upset if the price was cranked up through the roof, but they would just steal the stuff then. ;)

How to solve the problem?

I dunno, say a year of cold turkey? You take the stuff, you go into a 6x4 cell all by yourself. It will either cure the addiction or kill the druggie. Either way they will kick the habit. :D :p :o

[silentC]

to make things tolerable when the allegies hit
Like I said, it's not saving lives, just making miserable people feel better. ;)


Just the outright banning of something isn't going to stop a suitably driven person with sufficient smarts to find a way to circumvent the regulations/laws.
If it isn't manufactured, it can't be stolen or bought. I'd imagine making it from scratch would be a lot harder and further beyond the ordinary means of a kitchen chemist than making methamphetamine from flu tablets. One of the points being made here is how easy and cheap it is to make it. Do we need psuedo e at all? Not really. So let's stop making it and suddenly methamphetamine either disappears altogether or leaps up in price. Simple.

[Iain]

http://www.totse.com/en/drugs/speedy_drugs/ice.html
Google can be a frightening machine.....

[DanP]

Making from scratch involves some fairly complex chemistry and a lab that has a better than evens chance of blowing up.

I say make it prescription only and no more that a week worth per script.

Currently, the amount you can buy is restricted, but druggies just get the max amount from twenty different chemists with ten different people.

If you want cheap, Gamma Hydroxybutyrate or GHB is horrifically cheap. For less than the cost of a pack of cigs you can kill yourself with the shyte. If you are lucky enough to get help when your brain forgets to tell your lungs to breathe, you need someone to stand there and breath for you till you remember. Can take a couple of hours. Nurses love it.

Dan

[echnidna]

Hi Midge,

I once agreed with you. However after spending a large part of 18 years locking up said druggies the disturbing part is the familiar history that most, not all, seem to have.

Most have had seriously screwed up family lives where the decision whether or not to use the drug is less import than the decision to please the person or group that they are trying to be a part of.

cheers

dazzler

Or did the druggies screw their families so now they are only getting from their families what they deserve.

We orta stand all the pushers up agin a wall and give them 25 cents worth of lead. Then do it to all the druggies who don't try to kick the habit.

[Zed]

Then do it to all the druggies who don't try to kick the habit.

what if it was your kid echidna ? would you be so willing to pull the trigger ? or could someone else do it for you ?

[silentC]

Regarding the family background of druggies, I don't know too many addicts but the two who I do know well both came from ordinary families and both have sisters who turned out to be ordinary healthy individuals.

In one case, the addict sister fell pregnant to no-one knows who and when she gave birth the grand parents took the baby away and gave her to the other sister who has raised the girl as her own daughter. The daughter does not know that the pathetic, dried up shell of a person she thinks is her aunty is actually her mum. The mum/aunty was badly beaten by someone (she thinks a dealer) a few years ago, had a stroke and nearly died. Lost the use of one arm. The daughter is on her way to being an elite sportsperson.

The other one has two kids, one a new born. The older one stays with the grand parents half the year while the mother is off the planet. He's a very well balanced kid despite all the crap he has to put up with. He plays with our son and his grand parents (the same ones who raised the druggie) try very hard to give hgim a normal life, despite the best efforts of their daughter. Her sister is a food and beverage manager at one of the big hotels in Brisbane.

I think it's a bit of a generalisation to say that it's family background that causes the problem. It may be true in a lot of cases but there are plenty of cases of kids from seemingly good homes who do a runner and get involved with the wrong people. If you asked them why they started using, they probably couldn't tell you.

[dazzler]

Or did the druggies screw their families so now they are only getting from their families what they deserve.

We orta stand all the pushers up agin a wall and give them 25 cents worth of lead. Then do it to all the druggies who don't try to kick the habit.

Hey echidna

As I said I once thought like you do. Yep, druggies wreck not only their lives but their families as well and I was more than happy to treat them accordingly.

My attitude changed a lot after digging a little deeper with a number of cases that i worked on. When looking at the history of the druggie most seemed to have damaged formative years. With the massive records now kept on police systems you can now track a druggie from child to adult. Child abuse and neglect was a major factor, most were recorded as "child in need" and ran away numerous times around the 10 - 12 year age.

Most were first recorded criminally as shoplifters around 12-14 years and become frequent runaways. Runaways fall in with like kids and then spiral down. Add in a "father figure" who befriends these kids then gives them drugs in return for "favours" and the dye is set.

IMO Drug abuse is a medical problem and needs to be seen as one. If you are arrested for a property/drug offence you should be blood tested to see if you use drugs. If you do then you are committed to an institution that deals with the abuse so that we actually taking them out of the drug scene permanantly.

This is a general comment, but most druggies that i have taken the time to look at deeper seem to have this similar history. There is always an exception of course.

Drug pushers should get life in prison. Full stop.

cheers

dazzler

[womble]

some links to look at:

http://www.co.multnomah.or.us/sheriff/faces_of_meth.htm#

http://www.2stopmeth.org/main.php?pg=gallery#

some scary photos:

[DanP]

Dazzler,

You're starting to believe the shyt they spout in court to get a lower sentence.

You're making some pretty gross generalisations by saying most druggies come from abusive families. Some do I'm sure, but if you beilieve that it is a case of 'most', I think you are sadly wrong.

I don't believe that there is any one reason that people make the concious and educated decision to take up a syringe and stick it in themselves. Nobody can say that they don't know the consequences these days. You only have to look around to see them. Some would be peer and group pressure, some would be to escape a life they don't want to be a part of, some just because it is there.

You suggest mandatory detox etc, what do you think courts are doing? Most courts here will put them through detox and as soon as they have done their time they can't wait to stick it up their arm again.

Dan

[echnidna]

what if it was your kid echidna ? would you be so willing to pull the trigger ? or could someone else do it for you ?

Give me the gun.

[Zed]

Give me the gun.

geez thats harsh

[echnidna]

geez thats harsh

Not at all -- its sanity when youre dealing with a druggie

[Zed]

Lets get this straight : you'd trigger your own kid? glad I dont live near you. what a crap hole that would be...

[Grunt]

Cigarettes are a drug. Should we kill those addicted to them? What about alcohol? Both of those do more damage to Australians than ALL other illicit drugs combined.

[Iain]

Cigarettes are a drug. Should we kill those addicted to them? What about alcohol? Both of those do more damage to Australians than ALL other illicit drugs combined.
Except that smokers and drinkers don't steal as a rule to support the habit.
I note that on 1/7/07 hotels will 'have' to ban smoking in Vic:D :D :D
Should make them a more pleasant environment for a social gathering and a session of male bonding:rolleyes:

[Grunt]

Except that smokers and drinkers don't steal as a rule to support the habit.

They would if it was illegal. Why aren't they illegal considering the damage they do?

[Iain]

Because without tobacco, petrol and alcohol our Pollies would not be able to live in a style to which they should not be accustomed.

[dazzler]

Hey

DanP - I actually dont go to court unless to give evidence. Couldnt care less what a court imposes. Nothing to do with me. Present the facts to the court and then its up to them. I stopped trying to make sense of them years ago. Rarely do police sit through an entire judgement or sit beside the judge while he goes over case law and previous sentencing.

I also dont pay too much head to arguements of counsel;

Prosecution - He was doing 200 past a school on a harley
Defence - My client was doing 20 delivering meals on wheels

There was a turning point in my view on criminality. A while back I investigated a fraud against the Govt of >$500,000.00. At the beginning my mind was "lets get this thieving *&&^" and put him away.

Search warrants, full brief, offender made full and frank admissions. After he had been charged and plead and was awaiting sentence.

TDuring a two hour record of interview the story he told, and later found to be true, was quite interesting.

He owned a business with lots of machinery. The business had been started by his grandfather and was large. He lived on the farm his grandfather had cleared. Lived in his grandfathers house left to him.
He had two kids and a wife. His older mother lived at home with them. All Good.

His business was in competition with another large business. All his machinery was destroyed by arson. Later his house was burned while he was away. (both stupidly uninsured)

He borrowed heavily to build his business back up and build a new house. He was recieving a rebate from the govt for his business.

Then his daughter was injured and died in his arms while waiting for the ambulance to arrive which went to the wrong town. His wife later that year got cancer, he became depressed and his business suffered. Legal action would commence if he did not make his payments. The farm would be lost. He started to make extra claims on this rebate from the govt in the hope it would keep him afloat. He has now lost the family farm, has cancer himself and is looking at a lengthy prison term.

What should he get, a long prison sentence, its a lot of money stolen. But the truth is if he got a bond and/or suspended sentence I would be happy. Perhaps some may think Ive gone soft - perhaps, I think just more understanding of human fraility.

Back to the discussion;

In my experience MOST druggies have come from disfunctional families. Thats my experience and I imagine others have very different experiences. I have worked the beat, on foot, and spent a lot of time talking to druggies, not just ones I pinched, but got to know them.

Very few of the interactions have been as a result of court action, most from face to face contact just talking. Three are human sources.

However none can explain why you would do the things you do to get the drugs.

It is once you realise the pull that drugs have, and meth particularly, that makes druggies do what they do. People rarely wake up one morning and think - I might do some drugs today that destroy my life.

Seriously, who gives a rats why they started to do what they do.

What can we do to stop it and help them, and by that help our own community by stopping them needing to do it in the first place.

maybe shootin is easier:rolleyes:

dazzler the big softie:)

[Grunt]

Because without tobacco, petrol and alcohol our Pollies would not be able to live in a style to which they should not be accustomed.

But the health care costs of tobacco exceeds the revenue of taxation on cigarettes.

BTW, I don't think we pay our pollies enough. The only people who go into politics are those who want some fame. They certainly don't do it for the money.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[Graha]

Because without tobacco, petrol and alcohol our Pollies would not be able to live in a style to which they should not be accustomed.

Oh how true this is.

[scooter]

For those that missed it the first time, "The Meth Epidemic" is on again tonight at 11pm on SBS.


Cheers.............Sean