Rural driveway

[mrsxtro]

Good evening all.
A question about my driveway at our new property in Queensland....
We have 8 acres, new house nearly complete. When we had the dam dug we also got the driveway cleared. Just a dirt track really. It is quite driveable, although getting a little bumpy in places now that all the construction trucks have finished going backwards and forwards. It is very dusty at present due to the trucks and lack of rain. However, last time it rained we couldn't drive on the track due to the mud. All that fine dust mixed with water turned into a muddy slippery dip.
So my question is... now that the house is nearly done we would like to do something about the driveway. We will have it graded to even it out and put a proper shape to it for drainage purposes. But what to put on it??? Some driveways in the area are just dirt, some are road base, some are bitumised, some seem to be various types of gravel. The neighbours have a brand new deco drive but haven't seen how that holds up in the rain yet. Anyone had any experience with rural driveways? It is approximately 200 metres long, has a few small sections of slightly sloping land and a few turns and bends. What would be best? Leave it as dirt but properly graded and shaped? Will this still turn into a mud pit when it rains? Road base? How well will this hold up? How thick should it be? What about gravels? Any sort in particular better than others? Will it wash away when it rains? I spoke to one contractor who said for $3000 he could grade it, put down road base and compact it. Is this reasonable?
Any advice or recommendations greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
-mrsxtro

[masterblaster]

Hey Mr

What part of QLD anyway ?
l'm at Port Campbell Vic , lots of rain and slosh in winter . l was just asking about stone paths and drive areas myself but for the main drive itself here's what they do here .
First they grate it smooth , then put down about 50-70 ml of scoria , that redy stone , they use about 40 -50 ml size . After that they put down about the same again in this orange sandy stuff , it's very porous , some use another sort it's just a gavelly sandy mix .
lt's usually built up about 100-150 ml by then it depends on how much the indavidual's got to spend l guess .
And that's it , by the time it's down it's usually been driven on a fair bit already and compacted but extra driving over the first few weeks finishes it off.
Tell ya what you can drive or walk over it after wks of rain and it's still bone dry . The scoria is so porous it soaks and drains it all off and the top layer finishes the job , or is that vise versa .
They're fantastic drives and very tough over time once it's all bedded in , fairly cheap and simple to do to.
Cheers.
MB

[Shedhand]

G'day
A few years ago I was on King Island (North of Tassie) and met a dairy farmer who drove me around his farm on immaculate graded crushed dolerite roads. As you probably know clayey soils turn to glug with a bit of rain and it always rains on King Island. However, even though it had been raining for a fortnight when I was there, the roads were in perfect condidtion. I asked him how the roads managed to stay in such good nick and he told me about some kind of enzyme which he mixed with water and sprayed on the roads. The enzyme apparently worked by binding the road material and substrate to reduce the incidence of erosion from pothole and corrugation formation. I forget the name of the product and anyway as it was over 12 years ago the product has probably been superceded. I did a google search and found this (http://soiltac.com/index.html) which sounds a very similar product. Maybe if you ask around the roadbuilders up your way or some farmers they might be able to point you to a supplier.
Good luck with it.
Cheers

[Groggy]

There was a segment on the inventors (ABC) a few weeks back where a guy had an additive which would cause roads to stay together, he won first place that night IIRC.

[Rossluck]

Seriously mrsxtro, you should either lay bitumen or concrete. Don't muck around. If you can't afford it, battle on with the road as it is and do a bit of roadbase maintenance on the bad spots now and then. Then wait until you can afford to bitumise or concrete it.

I have a theory that when you build a new house you need to bite the bullet and borrow that little bit more to get certain things done. For instance, build a shed, install a driveway, air conditioning (ducted), a pool maybe, extra water tanks and so on. It's hard at the time because you're still hurting over the initial loan for the house. But ultimately, the extra you borrow is well worth it because your repayments don't increase by a huge amount, and it's done. Jut remember, 8 acres will always increase in value.

I know this sounds like a lecture, and I'm sorry about that, but how many times have you bought something and later on said: "we should have spent the extra money on getting a ..?". I do it all the time.

In essence, bitumen or concrete or temporary maintenance. Roadbase is brilliant, but still washes out in heavy storms. Bitumen is great if the contractors do it properly, and the word is that there are some shonkies out there. Find a reputable mob.

Concrete is brilliant but expensive, and 200 m is a lot of concrete. I'd be going for the bitumen.

The $3000 the contractor is asking for is OK, but the $3000 is best invested in a Bitumen company.

Good luck. :D

[Dan_574]

I have to disagree ross, a proper roadbase drive like master blaster said will last and wont cost the earth, for 200m of concrete or bitumen your looking at an absolute fortune, 200m long by 4m wide by 150mm deep equates to 800m2 and at a rough estimate of $55/m2, your looking at $44000 in concrete, no idea what bitumen would cost. A mate here in melb got a drive done in bitumen and was only about 50m long and it cost around the $9k mark.

[bitingmidge]

Dan,

You'll find the great part of your mates driveway cost was the bitumen.

Bitumen is merely a coating that holds the base together, stops it from washing away, etc etc. Roadbase is called that because that's what it is, a base.

Just as you could paint your house with primer, and maintain it often and come back in ten years and say primer is perfectly adequate, same goes for road base under any other description: deco, crusher dust etc. It will work, but go the extra for a cheap asphalt spray job, and if the road base needs a bit of maintenance, it will need a lot less!

By the time you've paid for a proper base, you've paid for a lot of the cost anyway!

Cheers,

P

[silentC]

The guy across the road had his drive done with some sort of emulsion. Looks like hot mix but it was about half the price. Can't remember what it was called.

[Bodgy]

Your biggest problem will be wash aways during storms. On my property, I had a relatively steep, in places, driveway, maybe 100metres. I used roadbase, but always got wash aways. Depending on how steep your property is, you may want to put in proper drainage along the drive, just on the high side, and maybe concrete gutters diagonally across the drive. If this is done, then any of the suggestions above are fine. If not, and you get water washing down the hill (if you have one) then concrete is the go. You'll still need some drainage.

Alternatively get 4wds.

[Bushmiller]

mrsxtro

If I were a fortune teller, I would say I see a sticky road ahead of you.

Much depends on the type of soil you have. Most people in your situation would be unable to drive on the road in wet weather if there were no road base on the top. In dry weather it would be a dust bowl.

My own experience on a road 800m long comprising two hairpin bends because of the steep grade is that ridge gravel (road base) is the only option unless you are a multi millionaire.

You need to make good use of any high spots to take contour drains off the road and have a good camber. The single aspect that is most destructive, as Bodgy has mentioned, is the speed of water running down the road. The camber stops water racing along the road and the take offs prevent the wash getting up speed and eroding the gulley. You can't have too many take offs.

We have never owned a road going 4WD so such roads can be made acceptable with care, patience and a little money

Good luck.
Regards
Paul

[Rossluck]

I have to disagree ross, a proper roadbase drive like master blaster said will last and wont cost the earth, for 200m of concrete or bitumen your looking at an absolute fortune, 200m long by 4m wide by 150mm deep equates to 800m2 and at a rough estimate of $55/m2, your looking at $44000 in concrete, no idea what bitumen would cost. A mate here in melb got a drive done in bitumen and was only about 50m long and it cost around the $9k mark.

I know what you mean, Dan. One way or the other it's going to cost. I think that for 200 metres you could bargain the cost down to probably $25000. This sounds like a scary amount, and it IS, but most houses these days are worth $500,000 or so, and another $25,000 for a driveway shouldn't force bankrupcy. My overall point is, it'll hurt now, but you'll be thankfull you did it every day for as long as you live in the house, and especially when you're trying to sell it. In my experience, the alternative is to keep chucking money into roadbase, and endure the problems of a washed out driveway after every big QLD storm (you know, we can have one every day for two months when they get going). Another incentive is that kids love to ride bikes and other wheeled things on them.

[mrsxtro]

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Keep 'em coming.
We certainly do not have enough money for bitumen at present. I am thinking road base is going to be our best option. The driveway does run up and down some slopes in places, nothing very steep. We have noticed some rather distinct water tracks down the slopes though. So a decent camber on the road will prevent this? Also Bushmiller mentioned take offs- what are these?
Thanks again for all your advice and experiences.
-mrsxtro.

[Bushmiller]

mrsxtro

Contour, take-off, drainage channel: I have phrased that badly. They are all the same. It is a man-made ditch divirting water from the side of the road. Normally they will be on the downhill side of a slope however slight the gradient. Next time you travel on a gravel road, have a look for them. However even the councils don't put enough of them in.

Regards
Paul

[Dan_574]

ross, I see your point.

Ive mentioned it on another thread, down here you can get a product called stabilise, its basically road base with up to 15% cement mixed in and it sets like concrete. My neighbour has it on a steep driveway which is only 20 metres long and hasnt lifted with a couple of storms(not as big as qld storms I imagine). This may be an option, with correct camber and drainage as mentioned it may be an option.

Have you spoken to neighbours or locals that have been around the area a while, see what they have.

[masterblaster]

My old street was gravel and got 200 ml deep wash tracks every heavy rain . Weird they use to do this street about 3 times a yr to . lt washed down the hill [ 50mtrs ] and left a big mud ditch infront of my house which really started to bug me, you could get bogged in this thing it got so bad.
Eventually l worked out where and why water was wrecking the place . Although they had in all the channels a neighbours driveway at the top of the hill had a lump over a crucial run off section . From there the run off changed corse , ran back across and down the road to my place leaving this deep gauge all the way after rain and a bog hole at my place .
l showed the neighbour what was happening ,he fixed that and l made my own deversion run off about 10 mtrs before my fence and filled up the ditch .
Never ever had wash off down at my place again or that deep gauge right down the road , you could even park there in rain after that.
Got a real kick out of solving that one .
Cheers
MB

[Brisruss]

mrsxtro,
I was a Civil Engineer in a previous career so I hope I can be some help.
You have to control the water flow to do it successfully. A well graded driveway with a crown sloping from the centre is best. Table drains are needed to keep the water off the road. If the land slopes across the road you may need to put some pipes in under the driveway to direct the water away from the high side.
If the driveway is steep you may need to put a barrier of rock or concrete in the drains at regular intervals to stop erosion.
As for the surface, Concrete or Bitumen (either hotmix or sprayed seal over roadbase) will work best. Deco tends to be prone to erosion too easily. Roadbase or crusher dust are good but are also the most expensive. They need to be compacted or they will wash away as well.
Natural clay will always be a problem in wet weather.
Cheers,
Russ

[mrsxtro]

Thank you everyone.
I think I have a pretty good idea of what is needed now.
The driveway runs downhill from the road. This is the part with the most problems. When it rains a fairly substantial river forms and pours down the driveway for about 50 metres then crosses over the drive (forming a rather deep wash track) and runs into the dam.
From all your advice I believe the following will provide the best solution (and within my budget!):
1. Have the driveway graded and crowned properly.
2. Have a drainage ditch built on the high side of the road which will be diverted away from the road. The lower side will just drain into the bush.
3. Lay down some sort of cover. I think at present this will be roadbase (maybe with stabiliser if we have it here) until we can afford bitumen.
4. Regular maintainence.

Anyone wish to comment? Does this sound correct to you all? Anything else I haven't thought of?

Thanks again.
-mrsxtro.

[MurrayD99]

Our drive is about 600m long. Originally it was built up with truckloads of river boulders (3" - 4") with gravel on top. Over time the big boulders worked to the surface - or got hooked by the grader blade. We bought a rough mess of potholes 5 years ago..... Bitumen would be great but the cost would be arm + leg. We got it graded then put about 40m of a mix called AP20 - I believe it is clay plus crushed gravel no bigger than 20mm. This is the standard for country roads in NZ. Seems to be OK - but has to be graded every now and then and I also drag chain harrows over it to get rid of corrugations. I recommend you do not put in the layer of big boulders. If you can, put biggish crush in the bottom - that packs together - and AP20 on top. (I forgot to say - we took away a whole lot of the big boulders, big job fixing the mess)

[Rossluck]

Can I suggest Mrsxtro, that when you get the roadbase laid, you pay the bit extra to hire a compaction roller (the biggest you can get) and roll the hell out of it yourself. I think that if you use roadbase, your chances of having it last a long time are enhanced if you compact it has hard as you can when it's first laid. Whatever, you do, all the best with it.

http://www.coates.com.au/equipment/?page=compaction

[mrsxtro]

Thanks Rossluck.
I have spoken to the fellow at the local quarry today and found out what most people do around here. Roadbase (approx. 19mm stone plus fines), 4 inches thick. Cost about $1850.

The local contractor I spoke to also suggested getting it compacted. He said it was not essential but gave a much better and hopefully longer lasting finish. Will definately get this done.

So all up it should cost me about $3000 for 130 tonne of roadbase, a fellow with some sort of machine to grade and crown the road and a compactor.

Thanks everyone for your advice and experiences.
-mrsxtro