power point wiring [Archive]

ariel

21st May 2006, 08:54 PM

Hi!
It seems easy for some, but I have a problem with wire size for a power point.
The story is that I would like to attach to the roof frame (new home) a power point where I would connect lights and appliances if necessary.

I can see that near by, existing power points are wired together and caped in a box.

My understanding is that I can get power to the socket from those bundles in the box by connecting the appropriate size cable.

The closest of the boxes has the wiring to the wall oven and the microwave sockets.

I know the safety procedure that I should follow, and I am not worry about that, but I am concerned on which size of wire should I use for a 10amp power point and if another wire added to the "bundle" does not affect the power supply of the rest.

I have in store two flat cables with three wires (Black, Red and Green/Yellow) one with 1.1mm thick wires, and another that (I was told) did come from a 15Amp power point and has wires entwined.

Thanking you in advance for advice on how to go about it.

Pulse

21st May 2006, 09:12 PM

Ariel, It is pretty easy to do but take note:

1. Run the wire from the correct circuit. If you want to supply lights us the light circuit, you may legally also connect anything less than 150W to a light circuit as long as the socket (power point) is not close to the ground. I think this is the situation you describe. This allows the connection of fans and plug in lights. This does not allow IXL tastics etc. Light circuits use 1mm2 or now more commonly 1.5mm2

2. Use new cable, it is cheap so don't recycle. If you want to connect over 150W then you need 2.5mm2 twin and earth. A 100m roll costs $70 or so.

3. Leave the oven circuit alone. Legally lights and sockets are required to be RCD protected, the oven is not and one day someone will switch of the light circuit, play with the oven-powered light you've conected and get zapped.

If you want more advice let me know

Pulse

Skew ChiDAMN!!

22nd May 2006, 09:34 AM

3. Leave the oven circuit alone.

Hear, hear!

Seriously, please listen to that. ;)

Simomatra

22nd May 2006, 09:48 AM

If you are having difficulty in understanding what cable size to use I suggest that you get the local licensed electrician to install it for you.

1. Peace of mind that it is installed correctly
2. You would not void your insurance if your additrion were to cause a fire
3. Any future owners of the house would have a correctly wired house

As you allready have the cable and outlet then the electrician will probably only be 1 hours charge.

Electricity usually does not gives second chances so err on the side of safety

DanP

22nd May 2006, 10:19 AM

The only safety procedure you need to worry about is how to safely pick up the phone and call a licenced electrician. It is unsafe for you to do this yourself.

Dan

mic-d

22nd May 2006, 10:31 AM

The only safety procedure you need to worry about is how to safely pick up the phone and call a licenced electrician. It is unsafe for you to do this yourself.

Dan

Hear bloody Hear!
A sparky once said to me an electicians M.O. would be like telling a plumber he's not allowed to get wet - ever. :eek:

Cheers
Michael

Guy

22nd May 2006, 12:38 PM

I agree with Dan P get an electrician do it. I spent 15 years in the UK as a sparky and come here and i cant get licenced unless i go back to scghool for 4 years.
That sucks, but if i go to NSW no probs at all i get licenced straight away.

BTW i do my own electrical works, as i know what im doing and im licenced in the UK. The adverts on TV say use a licenced electricain( doesnt say it has to be in Aus)

Shedhand

22nd May 2006, 12:46 PM

Don't mess with it. Its one thing to know the regs but another thing completely to competently install wiring etc.

ariel

22nd May 2006, 02:04 PM

Thanks to everyone's reply, however this is a reply to Pulse.

I will not be extracting power for a powersocket from any light cabling. I would not like to do that.

My idea is to take up power from a power supply cable, where the oven and the microwave are connected to in an entwined bundle having the wires ends with caps tucked in a covered box . My home has its electrical circuit board with RCDs.

The question is if the supply of power to other appliances is reduced by entwining another wire to the bundle.

Using 2.5 mm2 will allow me to get above 150W of power. But will that be fine to use on items of less wattage demand? As I understand, that much is available if need to be used. Am I correct?

Cheers to everyone!

Ashore

22nd May 2006, 02:48 PM

I know that legally there is a limit to how mant points you can take off a circuit , or a mixed circuit how many lights / points are allowed and on a pure lighting circuit you are not allowed to have a power point.
After you reach the max you need to run another circuit,
How many points , lights etc are already comming off the circuit you are going to tap into ? , is it a lighting circuit or a mixed circuit, there is also rules as to how close to the roof you can have a power point or fixed light.

I am not trying to rain on your parade, I know it looks so easy to just wire in another power point, and I would think that a lot of forum members have done so , its just that if there was ever a fire and the investergation team found abnomalities with your wireing then any insurance you have may be void, even if it did not cause the fire.

Rgds

Eddie Jones

22nd May 2006, 03:32 PM

PLEASE listen to all the good advice here. You do NOT know a thing about power wiring. That is obvious. Don't play with it 'cos it CAN kill you. Or worse, some poor innocent some time in the future.

I am not a fan of government regulation, but in the case of power electrics it makes very good sense.

Shedhand

22nd May 2006, 04:05 PM

I'm sorry to have to say this but I think its foolhardy in the extreme for anyone to be giving advice to unqualified people on matters that could pose a risk of death or injury to anyone. If I was a qualified and licensed tradesperson in electrical, gasfitting or plumbing the only advice I would be giving on a forum such as this is to get a qualified tradesman to do the work. Other than that I'd say nothing.
Ubeaut and its principals would be liable under Autralian law if the advice given here to someone unqualified was to result in death or injury or if public safety were to be put at risk.
Its one thing to put up a stud wall or build a cupboard but tapping into public infrastructure is regulated for a reason and qualifications and licensing are required.
My two bobs worth.

Watch it Neil. ;)

Cheers
Mike

Simomatra

22nd May 2006, 04:14 PM

Once again please follow all the good advice that fellow forumites are giving you.

Call a licensed electrician and get the job done.

It should be less than $100 what price do you put on a life.

Pulse

22nd May 2006, 05:57 PM

Ariel, you appear to have little understanding of electrical theory....

It is therefore potentially lethal for you to work with it.... you may also be responsible for the death of an electrician or a homeowner in the future, let alone fire etc.

Wiring is not just about physically twisting the wires together, or for that fact knowing the regulations. It is about safely providing electricity to the end user, and the rules and training are there from experience.

I think all people take responsibilty for what they do. You need enough insight to know your limits.

you are not an electrician, and don't appear to have the understanding of electrical theory to become one.

Call an electrician!!!!

spartan

22nd May 2006, 07:45 PM

Uhm, changing the topic slightly....Acknowledging of course that it is potentially lethal for the unqualified to do their own electrical wiring, and also acknowledging that there are plenty of unqualified people who do just that...

I find it interesting that people often state don't do it yourself because your insurance could be void....

Well I'd like to test that theory...I've been in my current home for three years. There were three previous owners before me....Anyone of them could have put in some illegal wiring (I know I certainly haven't).

If god forbid my home was to burnt down how would the insurance company go about proving that it was me or any of the previous owners...or perhaps negligence from a licensed electrician, who may of been hired by a previous owner and be completely unknown to me. An apprentice incorrectly supervised???

You see, when I bought this house I got a building and pest inspection, it says stuff like we don't inspect electricals, plumbing etc etc....But all seemed to be in workable order....

I would therefore propose that it would be extremely hard for an insurance company to prove who or who didn't install electrical wiring.

If we are going to say don't install electrical components yourself then say it because it is a dangerous thing to do if you don't know what you are doing. I do accept that many(all?) insurance companies will take up any excuse not to pay a claim. But they must act reasonably and within the law.

But them not paying because of illegal wiring does not stand up to one of the basic tenant of law - the reasonable person test. Would a reasonable person say that it was possible that any of the previous owners could be responsible for the illegal wiring - yes.

Is it reasonable that a home owner could be aware of any illegal wiring - no, afterall their not qualified, they had a house inspection, and lot's of the wiring is hidden from view.....

ozwinner

22nd May 2006, 07:50 PM

DanP

22nd May 2006, 08:11 PM

ozwinner

22nd May 2006, 08:18 PM

So the easiest thing to do is get a small job done by a registered sparkie, he then has to sign off on the whole house.
Problem solved.
What a sh17 world we live in.:(

Al :cool:

DavidG

22nd May 2006, 08:57 PM

http://www.ubeaut.biz/iagree.gif
Base rule with electricity.
"If you have to ask how then DO NOT TOUCH and get someone who does know how, to do it"

boban

22nd May 2006, 09:07 PM

The insurance Co wouldn't have to prove it. They would just deny the claim. It would then be up to you to sue. Then the onus is on YOU to prove on the balance of probability that you didn't do it. The insurance company could and would speak to previous owners and they would all say that they didn't do it. That leaves you with the job of refuting them and leading the magistrate to believe that you probably didn't fit it.

Good luck.

Dan

Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

Whilst I dont want to offend anyone, isn't it funny how quick people are to say get an electrician because they are not qualified, yet give out legal advice so readily. I know that it wont kill him if you get wrong.

BTW Spartan, well said.

Shedhand

22nd May 2006, 10:02 PM

Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

Whilst I dont want to offend anyone, isn't it funny how quick people are to say get an electrician because they are not qualified, yet give out legal advice so readily. I know that it wont kill him if you get wrong.

BTW Spartan, well said.Sorry Boban but you don't have to be a lawyer to know that fooling with live wires is dangerous and the uninitiated should leave 'em alone.
Cheers

Ashore

22nd May 2006, 10:51 PM

its just that if there was ever a fire and the investergation team found abnomalities with your wireing then any insurance you have may be void, even if it did not cause the fire.

Rgds

I based this statement on my own insurance policy ( from a Major insurer )
that reads
" You are not covered for ....

* because of intended results or acts or omissions or results of acts or omissions done with reckless disregard for their consequences, by you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

* because of the deliberate and unlawful act of you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

to my way of thinking and only as a layman and I am not giving legal advice will happly bow to the professionals in the legal field ie Boban
But the fitting of a power point by a non quallified electrician or the fitting too close to the roof could be regarded as an illegial act, or having reckless disregard for the consequences ie a fire

Spartan your point is valid but under the heading FIRE in the policy it reads we do not cover loss or damage caused by .....
* risk passed to you as purchaser of your home

I understand where you are coming from but these insurance companies have been at it a long time they employ experts to make sure that they don't pay if at all possible with fine print loopholes and expensive lawyers.
My point to ariel was to show the possible consequences of doing it himself and had he looked at the worst case result.

Rgds

boban

22nd May 2006, 11:02 PM

Sorry Boban but you don't have to be a lawyer to know that fooling with live wires is dangerous and the unitiated should leave 'em alone.
Cheers

I think you've missed the point. What you've just said is obvious and unquestionably correct.

People talking about legal liability on this forum is commonplace. My point was that it doesn't seem to bother anybody that they may get it wrong. Talk about 240V and all of a sudden its time to call in the expert electrician.

Dont take it personally, but your point about Ubeaut being liable for incorrect advice given here is just not right. It's not that simple. Even the lawyers with no commonsense they call judges understand the purpose of a forum. I'm not going to bore you with Tort law but if you dont believe this, then I can recommend some light reading.

Enough said on this point for me.

boban

22nd May 2006, 11:18 PM

I based this statement on my own insurance policy ( from a Major insurer )
that reads
" You are not covered for ....

* because of intended results or acts or omissions or results of acts or omissions done with reckless disregard for their consequences, by you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

* because of the deliberate and unlawful act of you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

to my way of thinking and only as a layman and I am not giving legal advice will happly bow to the professionals in the legal field ie Boban
But the fitting of a power point by a non quallified electrician or the fitting too close to the roof could be regarded as an illegial act, or having reckless disregard for the consequences ie a fire

Spartan your point is valid but under the heading FIRE in the policy it reads we do not cover loss or damage caused by .....
* risk passed to you as purchaser of your home

I understand where you are coming from but these insurance companies have been at it a long time they employ experts to make sure that they don't pay if at all possible with fine print loopholes and expensive lawyers.
My point to ariel was to show the possible consequences of doing it himself and had he looked at the worst case result.

Rgds

I must say you are one of the few who have read the terms of their insurance contract.

Based on what you have quoted from your policy, the loopholes for the insurer as you call them all, rely on the cause being either:

1. the reckless act(s),
2. the unlawful act(s) or
3. as a result of the increase in risk.

Put simply, they rely on the faulty wiring to deny the claim. If it plays no part in the cause, the insurer cannot deny liability.

I advised insurance companies exclusively before I was called to the bar and understand the mentality of the claims clerks. That said, most of them are brought back down to earth when the insured commences legal proceedings.

Sturdee

23rd May 2006, 12:15 AM

Put simply, they rely on the faulty wiring to deny the claim. If it plays no part in the cause, the insurer cannot deny liability.

Quite correct, if the fire brigade arson report indicates that faulty electrical wiring was the cause then they will deny the claim, however if that is not indicated in the report they will pay out notwithstanding that the hole house may have been wired up by a non registered electrician.

DAMHIK.:D

But the safety factor is paramount and I would not advise how to do it. If they don't know how then get a sparky to do it.

Peter.

Shedhand

23rd May 2006, 12:45 AM

My sparky's coming tomorrow to put some electrons in my shed :) and I know he'll do a good job and I won't die when I throw a switch. ;)
Cheers all.

Markw

23rd May 2006, 08:47 AM

Firstly
New work is very easy to notice providing some of it remains undamaged. New wiring installed within the last 5-10 years has a different type and thickness to its insulation - designed to radiate heat away from the conductor rather than insulate (contain) the generated heat. Houses built in the early 70s or before had a larger conductor thickness - read imperial sizing.

Work done by most electricians generally looks to the layman, pretty sloppy but still meets the regulations!!. Speed v neatness guess who wins. Well intentioned amateurs generally have their cable clips put exactly in the right place and its all neat and tidy - sometimes to the point of being "ana*** retentive".

The amateur who does one job will probably do a lot more.

If the fire brigade can tell which accelerant was bought from which petrol station or supermarket, dont you think that specialist investigator either from fire brigade, Dept of Energy (or what ever they call it there) or the local energy distributor can't tell you modded the wiring. Of course they can, unless all you have is a small pile of ash (absolute total loss).

The overwhelming majority of roof fires are the result of faulty or modified electricals - there is no other reason a fire starts up there. A high proportion are caused by people wittingly or unwittingly (install roof insulation) modifying their electricals.

To Ariel
Please don't wire this yourself - as said previously if you need to ask then you should get an electrician.

In the long run its not about insurance it about your own safety. Electricity kills. Still the money you save can go towards you burial expenses.

DanP

23rd May 2006, 11:24 AM

If the fire brigade can tell which accelerant was bought from which petrol station or supermarket

Too many CSI type shows for you...:rolleyes:

silentC

23rd May 2006, 11:50 AM

Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

OK, hypothetical scenario: My house burns down; insurance company sends an investigator; he determines that illegal wiring has caused the fire; they refuse the claim.

What happens next? Does the insurance company say "would you like to take us to court at our expense?" Or does it require ME to initiate proceedings against them at my own expense in the hope that in 5 or 10 years after all the appeals etc. they might have to pay out the policy?

spartan

23rd May 2006, 11:55 AM

Interesting can of worms I've opened here!:D

I agree with all those stating that safety is the big issue here not insurance...I don't want to detract from that one little bit.

I'm sorry it just doesn't add up that I could be held accountable for the sins of others, especially seeing I've taken reasonable steps like having a buliding inspection. I've had electricians do work at my house - even have receipts to prove that - so I could prove that at least some of the work done in my house was done by licensed electricians. They have even fixed some stuff that they have found - obviously done by previous owners :mad: . Is all done - answer - don't know, why didn't do it and much cabling joins are concealed from view/access. The records keeping act (Qld) says I only need to keep records for 7 years so if the electricians receipts went out the window after that?

I'd bet there are lots of homes with dodgy wiring in them that may be classified as illegal, sub-standard or just plain dodgy. With most of the home-owners unsuspecting of any faults or issues.

So I would think (and perhaps I'm wrong), that even if my house is damaged as a result of an electrical fault that my claim would be accepted. The insurance company might like to question it, but I think the onus of proof is on them. I have a contract with them - offer, acceptance, and consideration - I've not made any statements that would constitute a breach of their T&Cs.

When a house burns down because of a faulty wiring in a TV, or because a cord has worn or become frayed do the insurance companies pay?

If the iron drops on the floor or is left on the ironing board and starts a fire do they pay? - Is that an accident or negiligence?

From the licensed electricians out there, how would an electrical fire start? Would the risk of this descrease if an RCD is fitted to a house?

Arson (at least in my mind) is a deliberate act to start a fire. I wonder how much effort fire departments take into investigating a house - (I just don't know) - are those findings fact are they a balance of probabilties - or we suspect that it was an electrical fire started in ---wherever?

This debate has made me think another potential DIY disaster - one that I have committed myself - changing my brake pads on my car - no law against that is there?

I'd like to close by saying Ariel call an electrician my friend.

I'm going off to check my brakes.:D

spartan

23rd May 2006, 12:00 PM

Oh, BTW Boban, thanks :)

My posts should not be taken to represent legal advice or opinion, rather reasonable counter arguments to the proposition that your insurance company will not pay up.;)

GraemeCook

23rd May 2006, 04:45 PM

But what if the problem is the electrician?

Two years before we bought our 125 year old home the previous owner had it totally rewired and gave us the original receipts.

During the first winter while I was installing ceiling insulation batts, assisted by a sparky friend, we noticed that the original lead-sheaved wires had been left in situe. My sparky friend said that this was quite dangerous as it complicated and slowed the fault tracing process in an emergency. So we set about removing all the redundant wires, lead-sheaved wires that have apparently been illegal since 1956!

About the third lead wire that he cut was live; now I know why they are called sparkies. We then found that most of the drop wires to chest high wall switches had not been replaced.

I then bought one of those three-pin/three light gadgets from Dick Smith and also got an extension lead with a three pin socket on one end and a plug to fit a light socket on the other. We found that almost one third of lights and power points had the switch wired on the return wire rather than the active wire. This is very dangerous and illegal.

The "reputable contractor" was disinterested "....We have no contractual relationship with you, and client confidentiality precludes us confirming or denying whether the previous owner was a client...". I had their receipts!!!

The electrical regulator, then the Tasmanian Hydro, was similarly disinterested and merely suggested that I hire a contractor to audit the wiring. No action was taken against the incompetent or lazy.

Where do I stand with my insurer if a fire is caused by incompetent work by a licensed electrical contractor, compounded by an apparently inept or lazy regulator??

Cheers

Graeme

Markw

23rd May 2006, 04:48 PM

From the licensed electricians out there, how would an electrical fire start? Would the risk of this descrease if an RCD is fitted to a house?

This debate has made me think another potential DIY disaster - one that I have committed myself - changing my brake pads on my car - no law against that is there?

A large number of roof fires start because some d1ckhead or pothead is stealing power by accessing the mains prior to the switchboard. I will not go into the "how to" or someone else may try and burn their own house down as well.

D1ckhead does it to save money (theft) whereas Pothead does it to try and hide the huge (we're talking megawatts here) consumption of power to maintain an artificial growing environment for their cannabis (heat lamps, UV lamps and hydroponic water system). When EnergyAustralia see huge losses for no apparent reason we place investigative devices on poles and other places to find out where the stuff is going.

There is also the inadvertant fire caused by incedental movement of cabling causing loose wiring to develop a hot spot or by piling insulation material over lights (especially downlights - very hot) or wiring operating in an overloaded or previously stressed condition. Conductors can't get rid of excess heat, insulation degrades causing conductors to further heat causing insulation to melt. Conductors fuse and start fire cause D1ckhead has 3 inch nail in fuse box. BTW that RCD will not protect you from a short circuit, only a circuit breaker or fuse will do that.

Lastly if the car you changed pads on is yours then your safe to some extent. You can always be sued for negligence by the others in the accident. It is against the law to repair or modify another persons vehicle without being licensed.

Sturdee

23rd May 2006, 06:00 PM

A large number of roof fires start because some d1ckhead or pothead is stealing power by accessing the mains prior to the switchboard. I will not go into the "how to" or someone else may try and burn their own house down as well.

Timely post as this afternoon we had an electrical inspector calling around checking the meter boxes in the area to make sure that no one had wired illegally into the of peak supply and also measured the supply use from the pole and compared it to the meter.

Had a chat with him and he told me that he finds at least one house a day where they are stealing electricity. When he finds this he pulls the fuse on the power pole and gives a defect notice that requires the whole house wiring to be checked and payment for the estimated electricity theftis made before supply is restored

Peter.

Sturdee

23rd May 2006, 06:12 PM

OK, hypothetical scenario: My house burns down; insurance company sends an investigator; he determines that illegal wiring has caused the fire; they refuse the claim.

What happens next? Does the insurance company say "would you like to take us to court at our expense?" Or does it require ME to initiate proceedings against them at my own expense in the hope that in 5 or 10 years after all the appeals etc. they might have to pay out the policy?

Not so hypothetical.

A friend and former employer had the misfortune of his place of business, incidentally it was very profitable, burn down.

Fire brigade experts could not prove the cause of the fire and although the police investigated no charges of arson where laid.

Nevertheless the insurance company refused to pay out on the various policies of insurance (building, contents, loss of profits etc,) claiming arson by the proprietors and thus policies null and void.

So they had to sue the insurance company in the Supreme Court, and in due course (18 months later) they won and cost and interest were awarded against the insurance company.

Peter.

spartan

23rd May 2006, 08:26 PM

There is also the inadvertant fire caused by incedental movement of cabling causing loose wiring to develop a hot spot or by piling insulation material over lights (especially downlights - very hot) or wiring operating in an overloaded or previously stressed condition. Conductors can't get rid of excess heat, insulation degrades causing conductors to further heat causing insulation to melt. Conductors fuse and start fire cause D1ckhead has 3 inch nail in fuse box. BTW that RCD will not protect you from a short circuit, only a circuit breaker or fuse will do that.

Very informative. It reminded of me of the time when I in Cambodia installing telecommunications we used to run basically milspec two pair cable (WD/1T), the locals used to steel it and put 240 volts over it from local power poles they literally used to drop like flies.

WE were forever finding crying on lookers when we went to investigate telephone line faults....What was worse is often they cut the phone end of the cable first....connected to the transformer while it was still connected to the switchboard......

At any rate I digress, so if on the house side of your switchboard you have a reasonably modern set of circuit breakers and an RCD is there much chance of an electrical fire - assuming that you haven't over spec'd your circuit breakers - assuming a 10amp cb for lights, 20 amp standard for general power?

The reason I ask this is that I've all this installed by a qualifed electrician - along with my 3 phase - but I don't know if there is something dodgy in a wall or ceiling.....

boban

23rd May 2006, 08:32 PM

Silent, Sturdee has answered the question well (as per usual). You have to take them on, but they end up paying for it in the end. Provided of course they have no valid reason for denying the claim. Of the ones I get involved in, very very rarely does the insurer not take my advice and pay up if they don't have the evidence to back up their suspicions.

Sturdee

23rd May 2006, 10:53 PM

Of the ones I get involved in, very very rarely does the insurer not take my advice and pay up if they don't have the evidence to back up their suspicions.

Boban, in that case the claim was for about $ 9M and the final settlement was about $ 10.5M so there was more incentive on the insurance company to try to get out of the claim.

But they picked on the wrong guys in this case :D for all the times I learned to wait patiently in court house corridors was whilst I was working for them. :D :D :D

Peter.

ariel

24th May 2006, 12:31 PM

ariel

26th May 2006, 12:29 AM

Hi everyone!
Thanks to your replies specialy from Pulse and Ashore, I made my decision.
I have tried to post for several times my tanks but I have been slow to understand how this site works and consequently my attempts have failed.

If you could make it more user friedly, probably more people would get involved.;)

Thanks again, hope I can help someone in the future.

Regards
Ariel
___________________________________________________
KNOWLEDGE DOES NOT TAKE PLACE, ONLY MAKES ONE WISER :cool:

Redgy

26th May 2006, 08:42 PM

I haven't posted for a while because,
1. haven't been making much sawdust lately :( &
2. I used to post a bit of electrical stuff (I'm a sparky). It's a bit of a broken record on here when someone asks these types of Q's, all the sensible advice is to get a sparkie and at the end of the day that's really the only advice a public forum should offer, hence my lack of responding now to such questions. As someone already said if you gotta ask then you don't know what you're doing and it's dangerous stuff. It's not like asking how to glue up a panel where the worst that can happen is you waste a few bucks worth of wood, this stuff will kill you.

My2C worth, going back under my rock now...:p

Reg.

Wood Butcher

26th May 2006, 09:00 PM

Not so hypothetical.

A friend and former employer had the misfortune of his place of business, incidentally it was very profitable, burn down.

Fire brigade experts could not prove the cause of the fire and although the police investigated no charges of arson where laid.

Nevertheless the insurance company refused to pay out on the various policies of insurance (building, contents, loss of profits etc,) claiming arson by the proprietors and thus policies null and void.

So they had to sue the insurance company in the Supreme Court, and in due course (18 months later) they won and cost and interest were awarded against the insurance company.

Peter.

Similar case in QLD, there was a bloke who's house burnt to the ground one night. The insurer refused to pay out even thought the police the fire dept and even the insurers own investigators said it was 100% accidental.
The insurers reason....he was an ex-firefighter and would know how to light a fire so as to make it look accidental. And once again the insurer was taken to court and lost:D.

Wood Butcher

26th May 2006, 09:05 PM

You see, when I bought this house I got a building and pest inspection, it says stuff like we don't inspect electricals, plumbing etc etc....But all seemed to be in workable order....

I would therefore propose that it would be extremely hard for an insurance company to prove who or who didn't install electrical wiring.

I know this may sound a bit finiky but when I bought my first house (58yr post WWII house) I paid a sparkie $150 to completely check over the house and write a report for me indicating the state of the wiring, what needed fixing and especially whether all the wiring was meeting current standards. Fortunately all the wiring was good, but as ashore noted
but under the heading FIRE in the policy it reads we do not cover loss or damage caused by .....risk passed to you as purchaser of your home I had covered my ar*e in case something happened

ROB NZ

26th May 2006, 09:40 PM

Different rules in different jurisdictions.

Last year I got my workshop closed in and ready for wiring. (Shed size 12m x 6m).

The sparky who has done alterations and minor additions on our house in many years past said he was flat out, and happily allowed me to install the wiring and fasten up the 9 double fluorescents, and install the wiring for the lights, 6 double power outlets and 2 hanging chain outlets, but to make no connections, and then to call him to do the connections and wire up the switch board (which I had fastened in place). He then certified the work.

(The NZ system is that sparkies self-certify, and their work is then randomly audited by the licensing authority.)

HIs part of the work took a whole afternoon,(Saturday) and he complimented me on the neatness of my wiring, which needless to say pleased me.

Perhaps some deal like that might be possible in your part of the world.

ROB NZ

TommyC

27th May 2006, 09:12 AM

Rob NZ, I did the same thing earlier this year when i built my shed. I was comfortable running the cabling and mounting the lights and switchboard, because i had been given clear instructions about what to run where and how. I was also told not to make any terminations. The Sparky giving me the advice, and who finally fitted off and connected the power, was one i use as a subcontractor to our construction business, so it was easy for me to ring him up and ask "stupid questions" while i was roughing in the cable. My point is that, like most things you havent done before, it seems easy until you start to do it, and find that it is complicated. Most of the labour is in roughing in, so that is expensive. Thats what tempts us to do it ourselves....