Wanted: thin, hardwearing, glossy finish for solidbody guitars

[JupiterCreek]

Hi all

Well for the past few months I've been using K&H's acrylic gloss clear spray for my funny little solidbody electric guitars, but now that winter is upon us I'm having problems with lots of bloom and clouding of the finish (especially over solid colours!) even after using IXL-Tastic heat lamps in my workshop to warm the bodies first. The acrylic is great for a clear finish over timber, but it does need about a week to harden enough to avoid fine scratches to the finish, and Crash Supplies where I buy the stuff have suggested a month for hardening would be a better idea!

I'm at the point where I'm thinking of farming out the finishing to someone else who's set up with spray gear to do the job. I'm guessing people who make furniture don't leave their stock out to dry for a month... they'd have a workshop full of pieces and nowhere to work. What's the industry standard for a thin glossy clear coat that resists scratching?

Also... I've thought about using a tung oil type product. At the timber and working with wood show there was a guy doing demos with an oil product, maybe Organoil. He was applying it with an oscillating orbital sander. I asked him how it would work for guitar bodies with cutaways and he said it would be too hard to work with in those areas. In the US people rave about Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil. Has anyone here used it with good results? Would something like a car polisher for the flat areas and lots of elbow grease for the cutaways actually work?

Thanks in anticipation!

[rockola]

In the US people rave about Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil. Has anyone here used it with good results?I have a work in progress where I finished the neck in Tru-Oil. As it's a WIP, it hasn't been played yet, but so far it's really promising. The easiest thing to put on - wipe on, wipe off, buff with 0000 steel wool, let dry for a few minutes, repeat 6-7 times - and the feel is just fantastic.

Would something like a car polisher for the flat areas and lots of elbow grease for the cutaways actually work?You'd probably want something there for the polish to do its magic on besides bare wood. It might work on something exceptionally tight grained, like lignum vitae, but then again you probably wouldn't be building a solidbody out of it unless you wanted a hernia.

[Iain]

Organoil wouldn't give you the hardness you want, and if you did want that sort of finish I would go for hard shellac, EEE and wax, easy to apply in fiddly areas and probably a bit harder wearing than Organoil.
Can all be hand finished with little effort.
How hard is NC? that dries very quickly.

[carbatecwa]

juiptercreek,
Have you considered Rustins floor coating (cant get much harder and a full gloss) or Rustins plastic coating which is ideal for table tops. Both products dry very hard and have a very high shine (full gloss). We have both products in store (www.carbatec.com.au (http://www.carbatec.com.au) Perth) 0893454522.

[NewLou]

Gidday Jupiter Creek:)

lacquers are used to create impressive finishes on hand-crafted guitars like those made by Tom Ribbecke, one of the world's top makers of arched-top guitars.

Tom's work has been shown at the Smithsonian, and is marked by a mirror-like finish and a three-dimensional effect achieved by coloring the lacquer.

Before applying lacquer, it's a good idea to pour it through a filter to remove solid particles Lacquers are formulated to dry fast, so they should be sprayed on.

This process is one well worth looking into if you really wanna 'get into' finishing guitars...............theres pleantry of links around the forum that I'll give you a good start on spraying.

REgards Lou:)

[JupiterCreek]

Thanks for the replies!

carbatecwa... your server is returning an error at the moment but I'll try again later. The Rustins is acrylic so it should be tougher and harder than a urethane finish. Thanks for the tip! I see the phenomenally expensive MIK here in SA are listed as stockists so I'll ring them and see how their price compares to yours.

Lou.... this is going to sound lame, but the only rattle-can nitro I've been able to find on the web here in Australia is from VHT. None of the local auto parts stores keep stock and the agent hasn't replied to any of my 3 emails to them over the past 2 weeks. I've thought about buying a cheap compressor and jamb gun and learning to use spray equipment, but I only do a handful of bodies of various sizes per week so I'd spend more time cleaning the gun than spraying with it, hence my use of rattle-cans. I'm also not a big fan of the checking that seems to be a part of nitro finishes as they age. My Maton Mastersound had a ding in the neck that was repaired under warranty by Fretco, the warranty agent here in SA, and after a year it developed a fine checking. It's not the end of the world, and I know some people actually like the effect, but I sell my instruments to the US so I'd like to have a stable finish. If I ever find a local VHT stockist I will try the nitro just to see how it turns out though.

Edit:
I just made a few phone calls.... MIK don't do the Rustins in SA. Mirotone do a satin and a semi-gloss nitro in a rattlecan, I'll buy a can of each and report back! ;-)

[sinjin1111]

Miratone. 2pk. You can sand and respray in about 20 minutes.

[rockola]

I only do a handful of bodies of various sizes per week so I'd spend more time cleaning the gun than spraying with it, hence my use of rattle-cans.A "handful" a WEEK? :eek::eek::eek: Mate, you need a spray rig. I've done exactly one electric in nitro with a spray setup, and am seriously considering getting a compressor + spray gun even though my output is more like a handful a decade!

[JupiterCreek]

Hi Ola

I make funny little guitars.... ukes in soprano, concert and tenor scale lengths, emandos, tenor guitars, bouzoukis... all solidbody electrics. I also make full sized electric guitars, and I fabricate a lot of my own parts like bridges, neckplates and control plates. The problem is having enough time to make the damn things fast enough, and at the moment spraying bodies is taking a lot of time, especially when I end up having to resand and respray.

I've spoken to a couple of furniture makers about getting them to do the spray finishing for me, but they seem fixated on polyurethane finishes and I need hard thin glossy finishes.

[soundman]

Traditionaly common or garden nitrocelulose laquer is what has been used on gituars.
It has advantages & disadvantages over other finishes but it is still what I would use.
It dries fast
It blends into itself
it is thin & hard
Once it is off its off
If you have a real stuff up wipe it off with thinner.

Yess it will bloom
but another coat when the conditions are better will pull he bloom out ( mostly)
bloom can be managed with retarder and heat treatment.

A mate who trained on piano finishing in melbourne recons even in winter they could get 2 coats on a day as long as it wasnt overcast.
They would put the pieces out in the sun ( winter remember ) till they were good & warm..... whip em inside & spray em straight away.... once the finish had flashed off... back out into the sun for another go..... no retarder used.

No need in summer.

If you are spraying a thermomiter and a hygrometer in the workshop are essential. you will soon learn to spray only when the temp and humidity are adequate.

after you have used nitro you will understand "why the sunburst finish is"
Why.... because with nitro you can.

cheers

[JupiterCreek]

Thanks all

I've spoken to the local VHT agent and they don't bring in their nitro based lacquer. Mirotone do a satin and semi-gloss. Does anyone know of a brand of rattle-can clear gloss nitro?

Soundman... I just added some coats of clear acrylic to the two bodies that gave me grief over the weekend. My setup is two IXL-Tastic 375 watt heat globes set about 1.5 metres apart, with the bodies about 700mm away and in the centre. I've got an alfoil covered sheet of cardboard directly behind where the bodies hang to reflect some heat and light. I warm the bodies up until they're warm to the touch before I start spraying. I scored an old 2Hp reverse cycle airconditioned for my workshop but I haven't gotten around to setting it up yet. When I visited the Maton factory last year the place was comfortably warm, 50% relative humidity, and a positive flow airconditioning system like an operating theatre... somehow I don't see my backyard shed emulating those conditions, but it sounds like your mate is succeeding with what he's got so it's possible!

[durwood]

acrylic lacquer has been used in the automotive industry for the last 40 plus years. Holden (GMH) used it on their vehicles up until about 5 years ago until they finally joined the rest of the industry and changed to baked enamel.

A lot of cars are still on thr road with Acrylic lacquer paint. It replaced nitrocellulose lacquer (duco) which was the finish on Holdens before. Duce has been around since 1924 when it was developed into a paint after the first world war (its close to being an explosive which they were trying for but ended up with this clear fast drying goo)

Nitrocellulose lacquer has one bad fault it hates sunlight and if its exposed to it it goes off real quick. Whites go yellow, clears go yellow then brown and crack. All of the colours fade and go chalky quickly. If you can remember back to the 50's most cars were patchy only basic colours and had to be polished frequently. Sticky tape is usually Nitro or ( cellulose tape ) and I'm sure you have seen old sticky tape on something.

When Holden released Acrylic Lacquer on their EH Holden it was advertised as the "magic mirror finish" and they boasted it did not need polishing for 2 years. It is based on perspec and does not get affected anywhere as easily as the old N/C. Its from this point metallic colours became available on cars widely, before that they were rare and those touched up in duco were messed up within weeks. Now you could have these colours and touch up the far superior Baked Enamels so they appeared undamaged.

Your supplier is correct A/L will take a month to dry actually its pretty dry in a month but takes up to 6 months depending on the time its done.

The only way for it to dry is by evaporation of the solvent and the slower ones in the thinner take ages to dry out. In summer with lots of hot days the time is shorter than in winter when there is little heat in the air.

You can avoid blushing problems by having a warm atmosphere, so using heat from some source is needed when its cold. Lamps warm OK but work best if they are shining onto the lacquer but if you are not careful you will blister the coats on the timber as the timber can't soak up the heat.

If you check out the smash shops you will see their booths are heated by convection heaters ( the air is warmed and put into the booth) They use heating lamps to dry the paint after it is applied, but this warms the metal and drys the paint from the inside out and greatly shortens the drying time. They also bump up the air heat in the booths and force it to dry at about 60C after spraying. Try a cheap fan heater to warm your area it will work a lot better than lamps.

Just a bit on blushing Its caused by the solvent taking the heat out of the air to evaporate itself, if there is not enough heat any moisture in the air is no longer kept there by any heat and it drops onto your paint surface and makes it go milky.

As Soundman said it will go if you put on another coat but you must be careful not to go over a coat with moisture on it or you end up with the water trapped in between the coats and the finish may end up with blisters in it (humidity blisters)

You wanted an answer to your problem, well there are better finishes that A/L especially if you need a hard shiny one. Lacquers require about 5 - 6 coats to become a proper serviceable finish (either acrylic or nitro). Put on properly they equal about 3 thousandths of an inch any less and you will probably break through to the underneath primer or colour if you are clearing. As you mentioned before it takes so long to dry, after 24 hours A/L can be easily damaged by pressing your finger into it it will leave a fingerprint.

Again Soundman's nitro drys a lot faster and harder you have to buff it the same day or you will have great trouble getting scratches out the next day. Its the easiest finish by far because it drys so fast, mess up and you can fix it in minutes. A/L on the other hand can be a bitch to fix as the thinner is so strong it will attack the previous coats as you put on more and then take ages to dry.

If you use any lacquer put on one coat at a time and let each one dry out at least 10 minutes between coats more if you can. The more they dry out the less solvent trapped underneath.

I like sinjins1111's idea the best, use a 2 pack enamel there are many to chose from, pick one which has a short set up time with a fast dry hardener and it will still be rock hard in a few hours. Two coats of a 2 pack enamel will give you the same thickness as 6 coats of lacquer and it will dry far harder than lacquer ever can and it can't be resoftened like lacquer, spill a strong solvent on lacquers and they remelt.

And it won't bloom.

[JupiterCreek]

Thanks durwood. More good info for me to digest!

[kiwigeo]

Rob,

Try this site...they make a guitar laquer.

http://www.durobond.com.au/lacquers.htm

Cheers Martin

[JupiterCreek]

Just thought I should post a quick update.

I bought a couple of cans each of Miralac in Semi-gloss and Semi-satin. The semi-satin went on very nicely, but at this stage I've only done a small batch of necks in Austraian oak and a rebuild of a guitar neck in maple.

This coming week I'll be doing some bodies so I'll try the semi-gloss and report back with the results and some photos.

Thanks for the help and tips everyone!

[kiwigeo]

Rob,

I hope youre having better luck with the finish on your solid bodies than Im having on the french polish job on my current classical.

Might be good to meet up for a coffee and have a communal moan on our respective finishing woes.

Cheers Martin

[reeves]

Nitro celluose laquer the coating of choice for guitar makers...
hard, clear, durable and proof of water and moisture....

u need multiple coats like 10-15 with sanding and buffinig bewtween....

check
www.stewmac.com
www.lmii.com

i have some i got for turning form a specialst supplie store in Brisbane, its toxic but great....

cheeeeeers
john

[JupiterCreek]

Hi Martin
Your on for a coffee sometime!

John
I regularly drool over the Stewmac catalog. I buy fretwire, tools, some fretboards, some pickups, pickup surrounds etc from them. The problem with their finishing supplies is that they won't/can't ship outside of the US, hence my search for local alternatives. I'm getting nice results with the Mirlac Semi-satin for neck. The Semi-gloss isn't all that speccy... similar to Cabothane satin in the poly's.

[Ian Hawley]

I use Miratone nitro laquer on all my guitars.I did have a blushing problen at first but got over this by using one of their thinners which slowed down the drying process slightly. I use a small cheap compressor and an HVLP spray gun and have had good results.After sanding I buff with Stewmac compounds and I get a pretty good finish. Guitar finishing step by step is a great source of information which is available from Stewmac. My biggest problem now is the general unavailability of oil based grain fillers, I don't like the water based types They are just knot filler which are diluted and don't in my opinion any do half as good a job as the oil based ones.

[soundman]

Ian, I have been asking into the question of grain fillers my self and have the same dilema. Either find one or get to & brew one.
Mirotone list a grain filler have you looked into it.
cheers

[Ian Hawley]

Hello Soundman,
I am afraid its a water based filler Mirotone sell I was using Wattyl tinted with Stewmac dyes and it worked very well under Nitro full gloss. I think that they may still make it but I can"t seem to find any..

[JupiterCreek]

You might try Feast-Watson sanding sealer is great if you're not planning to stain the timber. I've used it on some Tassie blackwood, Fijian mahogany and Queensland maple, all finished with semi-gloss Miralac rattle can spray with good results. I tried using my usual Wattyl gel stain on some Hoop pine that was sealed with the Feast-Watson sanding sealer and it was a blotchy blushy disaster, so I guess oil and water just don't mix! :confused:

[rockinrob]

Hey Rob, there are some other options out there, but nitro lacquer was always the standard. A lot of guys are talking about this stuff in the link.

http://www.graftedcoatings.com/wood_clear_ktm9.asp?iid=25

I'm pretty sure most of them have sprayed it, but looking at the site just now it says it can be brushed on. Personally I think it would be a good idea to invest in some spray equipment as in general you'll get better results. Apparently this stuff is a water base that's supposed to act more like a lacquer, as in it "melts' into the previous coat to build up a film finish. Don't know if you can get it where you're at.

[JupiterCreek]

Hi rockinrob

KTM gets good reviews in the Musical Instrument Makers' Forum too. At the moment I'm using rattlecans of semi-gloss Miralac and it's working well. Not full gloss but easy to use and an acceptable result.

[soundman]

One thing that has come to light recently in my world is resene water bassed polyeurathane clear.
I haven't tried it yet my self but "magic murf" has been giving it a good go for a while & he recons it is very promising. can be brushed...... but when sprayed comes up very nicely.... more laquery than varnishy.... close to no smell and there is no way it is going to pull solvent bassed stains.
could be worth a look, i'll be giving it a go when I have some time.
not sure about resene's southern contact info but aust head office is on the gold coast.
cheers

[HJ0]

Was talking with resene last week, they said the paint i was after would take 4-6 weeks to ship from new zealand.

So if you need something they don't have in oz it might pay to inquire.

27615

HJ0 Cheers

[rockinrob]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Miralac- is it NC in a can? I think spray cans do an alright job, and if you're going to rub out the finish getting a smooth coat from the gun (or aerosol) isn't that big a deal. I've seen some that looked a bit cloudy, but some that didn't. It's just that I'd think doing everything with spray cans would be expensive in the long run, especially if you're doing a couple of guitars a week. And you'd have more control with a spray setup.


BTW- about the oil based pore fillers, have you ever thought of trying a 2 part epoxy? I've always used the oil base stuff (Bartley's), but I think I'm going to thry a product called Z-Poxy soon. I know you can get that product in the UK, so it maybe available where you guys are. If not, I'm sure you'd have something worakable. I'm looking into it because I'm looking more into waterbased finishes -not for guitars, for cabinets (with guitars I'm still partial to NC). But if the Z-poxy works I wouldn't hesitate to use it on guitars, many people love it.

[MoonShine]

Hi all, new here and stumbled on to this exciting forum through Mr. Google.
I was getting the feelers out looking for a nitro cellulose spray for my latest project, an old SaeHan acoustic/electric guitar.

Fixed the broken neck and head by carefully 'pinning' with dowel and using Selleys 308 Melamine Formaldihyde glue, then staining with Mahogany several times to get a deep mask to hide the repair cracks and so forth.

Attempted to use a spray lacquer I bought at a local Auto Accessories place thinking this would set hard but its more like a polyurethane skin which would no doubt take ages to cure to a hard finish.

Hit it with Wet 'n' Dry 2000 and then my favourite finishing polish to get that 'wet' looking gloss, Carnauba. But alas, once you've used the guitar for a session it smudges badly and you're forever bring out the polishing cloth.

On close inspection with powerful Opti-Visor lens so I can work hands free, can see scratches on the body which are awfully hard to remove with 2000 and no matter how many coats of carnauba I use, it doesn't want to fill in the scratches.

So thinking bugger it, time to look into cleaning the whole guitar, getting the masking tape out and hit it with Nitro Cellulose.

Rang around to no avail, so could anyone from Adelaide please contact me and let me know if I can get a couple of NC spraycans?

Time to attack this baby with the real thing, sick of messing with 'skin' type lacquers that don't have anywhere near the gloss I have on this guitar already, like chalk and cheese in comparison.

The gold plated machine head tuners are sitting waiting to be fitted but won't do it until this sucker glows.

[soundman]

The only "proper" laquer that I know of that comes in a spray tin is made by mirotone, they have branches in most capital cities.
OR
Timbecon in WA have it in their catalogue.

the other option is to get realy dedicated do it in hard white shelac.

cheers

[JupiterCreek]

Hi all

Miralac is an aerosol pre-cat nitro semi-gloss ... easy to use. Doesn't shine like a full gloss but it's simple to use and cheap. Retail is around $10 a can including GST. They sell direct at 135 Mooringe Avenue, Camden Park.

If I ever get to the point of spraying more than 4 bodies a week it might be worth getting a proper spray setup, but for what I want I'd spend more time cleaning the gun than actually spraying! ;-) My last few instruments have actually been finished in the semi-satin Miralac and I quite like the finish. Not everything needs to have that PRS "dipped in molten glass" look. If you go into the MIMF library and look for some of Ellie Erickson's work I think she's right on the money.

Wasn't it Bob Taylor who made the comment about how someone discovered that by spraying the guitar, sanding it back, spraying some more, sanding some more, etc... eventually the guitar would be really really shiny. He said we need to find that person and shoot them.

[Phil Mailloux]

If you only spray clear through your rig it takes two minutes to clean the gun. Empty the gun, put thinner in it, shake it up a bit, spray the thinner out to clean the nozzle, wipe the inside and outside with a towel full of thinner and voila! If you're going to use the gun a couple of times a week there's no need to pull it appart everytime. The problem is when you use stained lacquers, especially with the stewmac colortone stuff in it. That takes an eternity to clean :(

[MoonShine]

Thanks fella's, 'semi-gloss', ouch!...thats what I have now compared to the original finish on this old acoustic guitar.
Was going to ring Miro - Camden Park tomorrow morning Tues., and check out their ultra gloss finishes so may have to look at getting my compressor back off the bloke who borrowed it, 3 years ago, and sounds like I may just have to get a 4lt tin.

I'm in a Blues forum discussing finishes for specifically acoustic guitars, and on many occasions it has been noted to use a hard setting lacquer to ensure a good tone. Like these blokes are talking about very expensive acoustic guitars.
With that in mind I'm not going to take the gamble and destroy it with a polyurethane or other 'hard wearing' floor applications just in case. Going to read through the many posts in this great site and do my homework thoroughly before taking the plunge.

One thing I've found frustrating, I bought some 2000 Wet & Dry paper and can't remember where I got it from, and apparently you can also get finer around a 2400 (or even 2600?) grade?
Checked out and rang all the local Auto Accessory and Hardwares around the place and the finest they have is miles too course....around 1200.

I spend a lot of time going to Otto's off Magill Rd, SA., for burl veneers and even they don't have the ultra fine grades that I use before applying carnauba.

Looking up Ellie Erickson now thanks.

[soundman]

There are many good things about nitro laquer and one of them is that it cleans up very well, it is completely solvent resoluable which is great for clean up. You can also leave it in the gun without too much drama.
I often use GMH flat black for blacking speaker fronts and inside racks, which is a cheap/crude black nitro and have left the laquer in the gun for weeks on end, just keep topping it up, as long as you spray some product every day or so.... no problems.
Try that with enamel or polly and your gun will be most unhappy

Nitro is also hard & crisp which makes it good for tone.

it also lasts indefinitely in a well sealed can.

If I was just spraying gituars I'd get a hvlp gravity gun and alittle compressor an awway you go. spend...... $200-300 bucks maybe.


If buying mirotone get a tin of sanding sealer and a tin of the correct thinner.
For small stuff the fast thinner is probably ok.

cheers

[MoonShine]

I just sent an email off to this mob in NSW,
http://www.durobond.com.au/lacquers.htm
Hoping they'll send me in the right direction with their 851 Guitar Lacquer (Nitrocellulose)

[JupiterCreek]

Hi Moonshine

I get my clear K&H acrylic spray and spray tins of custom colours from Crash Supplies, 22-24 George St, Stepney 5069, ph 81329000. They also do wet and dry paper down to incredibly fine grits. P2400 I think

While you're there have a look at the foam backed abrasive pads. Stewmac call theirs Micro-Mesh Soft Touch Finishing Pads... Crash Supplies have the same stuff in little sheets about 4" x 6" or so and the stuff's priceless! As well as being great for finish sanding they're very handy for fret finishing too!

[MoonShine]

Top stuff, thanks for that Rob. Sounds like its not too far away from Otto's Timber yard where I get the sheets of veneer, think its Anne St., Stepney. Takes me ages to sort through all the burl veneer, decisions decisions.
Last one I got was Birdseye Maple, looks 3D with a heap of lacquer coats.

2400 awesome, the finest I've been able to get anywhere in the NE suburbs is 2000. Strangely Sprint, Repco and Auto Pro don't do it this fine?

[JupiterCreek]

Hi Paul

I just looked on Collins Industrial Supply's website and they list Tufbak Durite paper up to P2000 grit. When grits changed from Imperial to Metric in the 70s I think 2400 changed to P2000, but I honestly can't remember. Collins Industrial Supply are on Grange Road at Welland. Nice people to deal with and probably the best range of quality engineering products in SA.

[MoonShine]

Thanks Rob, got some veneer from Otto's and shot around to George St and picked up a few sheets of 2000.
Know where to go now, thanks for that. Now to make a veneer 'sandwich' with G clamps on this guitar head lol.

Ever tried that Selleys 308?...melamine formaldehyde glue? awesome. Dries like marble this stuff, left some in the mixing cup and ditched it before the missus found it missing.
Wasn't a Royal Doulton teacup, just a Salvo's special LOL.

[MoonShine]

No luck getting any Nitro from our local Mirotone, the gloss is now obsolete.

Got in touch with Durobond, NSW,
1 Ltr 851 Guitar Lacquer Clear Gloss $36.30
1 Ltr 1220 Premium Lacquer Thinners $15.40

Plus Postage/handling/freight...

Gonna be an expensive bloody geetar me thinks:rolleyes: :)

[soundman]

I'd be very surprised if mirotine didn't still have gloss.
I know you cant get gloss in a spray tin, but

precatalised laquer comes in a variety of gloss levels from 30% to 100%.

precatalised is nitro but they don't tend to call it that.

I've never asked for "old time" nitro laquer always used pre cat.

cheers

[MoonShine]

I'll give them a ring again tomorrow morning thanks and will ask for precat super dooper gloss this time....fingers crossed.

[soundman]

The best thing to is ask to have a chat about product with a rep or teck consultant. Get a run down on the various products.
cheers

[durwood]

Not being into musical instruments I have skipped this thread before but opened it last night. Here are a few things to mull over.

Nitrocellulose lacquer or Duco as it is known in the automotive trade was discontinued in the 1980's after being released in 1924. It is a good fast drying paint that goes hard very rapidly (less than 24 hours) but is terrible out doors ,fades and cracks in months after application. It is only used in the furniture trade now and by some other smaller industries.

When it was used in the trade the finest W&D paper available was 600 (US standard) which is the same as P1200 (metric grade) which replaced the old grade in 1974.

Before that the smoothest grade we used on NC was 320 (which is the same as P320. If we needed to rub something out in the colour we doubled it upon itself and rubbed the sharp edges off the grit. The full gloss lacquer drys so shiny it was only ever rubbed to remove any faults and it was always sprayed to a gloss finish off the gun.

Mooonshine! If you want to get rid of the scratches you put in the finish just spray another thin coat of NC on the previous surface after you clean off the wax/polish.

If you use a spray can you have very little control but if you have a spray gun to apply NC start with 50-50 thinners and clear and after 3 coats reduce it to 70-30 thinners /clear then flow coat it with 90% thinners or if you can ( good enough at spraying) 100% thinner, someone mentioned retarder thinner this works even better as the paint stays wet for several minutes and the gloss level gets even better but you have to be careful you don't overdo it or you will get runs. If you apply more than about 5 -6 coats you run the risk of it cracking/crazing later in its life. Five coats is industry standard, if the total thickness exceeds 10coats it should be stripped off and started again.

You don't need to rub the surface unless it has faults, dirt or bad orange peel, the idea is to spray it wet enough so that it flows out flat before it sets. The correct gun set up makes this easy, if its not the correct one it won't spray properly.

The workshop I did my apprenticeship in did not have a spray booth or a buff, everything came of the gun, sometimes we used a rag and compound to reduce the gloss level to match other panels surrounding the new area as they always had fine burnish marks from being wiped with a rag to clean them or from polishing.

If you leave the NC for more than 4 hours on a normal 24 degree C day it will dry so hard the scratches will be hard to remove without heavy compounding. After 24 hours you will have great difficulty getting them out.

The fine papers were introduced in the late 80's to help in the application of acrylic urethane and acrylic lacquer which is an entilely different material. Its solvent is so strong that if you rubbed it with even 1200 paper it could blow up in your face and look like a garden rake had been used to rub it. A safer way to avoid scratch blow ups in the paint was to leave it thicker than normal and this produces orange peel. To remove it and to get a final gloss as it only gives about 70-80% gloss off the gun it was then rubbed backflat.

The fine papers 1500 -2000 helped as the scratches were so small only a tiny amount of buffing was needed to remove them. Acrylic also softens when heated so when you buffed and generated heat it helped soften the paint, only problem is you can melt the paint and gouge out the surface if its not dry enough or you overheat it. Acrylic lacquer takes 30 days to dry as hard as NC does in 24 hours.

In the furniture trade when TV cabinets were actually wood NC was the prefered finish. The cabinets were made out of a light coloured wood, stained to your colour -teak ,mahogany cedar etc and then sprayed with about three coats of NC. This was often done hot ( heating the lacquer) but sanding back and polishing compounding or waxing was not contemplated.

If marks were found the surface was rubbed with a pad with thinners on it to remelt and work out the fault. If you are old enough to remember such cabinets you will know the finish was as good or better than any furniture you will buy today.

[MoonShine]

Great stuff, thanks for the effort of submitting this valuable info Durwood.:)

[soundman]

Nitro is still the prefered finish in much of the furniture industry. be it in a number of modified forms.

Much of what you say about car method rings tru about modern nitro and timber finishing.... many recon it is pointless sanding past P240 for application of nitro and certainly not past P400 for denibing between coats (if necessary)

Yep those sanding scratches just melt out with the following coat.

Only use rertarder if you realy have to.

Another realy good thing is that if you stuff up big time, just wash it off with thinner and start again.

cheers

[MoonShine]

'Duco' is a thing I'm going to seriously look into rather than specifying Nitro.
Not sure if the Duplicolour range of sprays, which have a clear lacquer, is the same animal?

I'm going to have to be practical about this, the expense for getting a compressor, spray equip, and then lacquer in bulk tins would be unneccessary considering the amount of times I'm likely to use it? Would dearly love a decent workshed to go along with it but Keno and Lotto haven't been too kind lately....LIKE 30 BLOODY YEARS!!!:eek: ;)

Here are links to a couple of piccy's of the old guitar, was most impressed to have picked it up in a local hockshop for $25. Granted it had a broken neck but that was easy to repair and there is no way anyone can pick the break, no way! Luckily it was the mahogany under the rosewood fretboard that had snapped, a lot of lining up, decent glue, and G-clamps fixed the business.

Now what has been a godsend with my poor shortrange eyesight, is having invested in a pair of Opti-Visors. Got them sent down from a Qld mining supply company for $30...great for hands free work like soldering, woodwork, PC repairs...etc etc..

Anyway, here are the pics.

http://adam.com.au/pebholst/Pauls_Files/SaeHan_1.JPG
http://adam.com.au/pebholst/Pauls_Files/SaeHan_2.JPG

The head is now completey different than shown in #2, its a lighter veneer the same as the sunburst finish on the body and a lovely burl birdseye maple.

[Phil Mailloux]

I believe that Duco was a name brand of the Dupont company waaayyyy back when. Yes it was nitro but I doubt very much it's still in production today.
Duplicolour isn't nitro.

[Paul B]

From what I understand, normal "Duco" nitro finishes are too brittle for use on an acoustic guitar. The people at Durobond told me that they'd worked with Gerard Gilet to develope their guitar lacquer. Basically just added some plasticisers to give the finish a little more flexibility - guitars move around quite a lot in response to changes in humidity, you want the finish to move with it.

For really fine grits of W&D paper, try your local jewellers supply places. I got a bunch of different grits up to P4000 from a jewellers supply place in Pitt St Sydney.

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Ubeaut hard shellac as a finish for acoustic guitars. I've just sprayed my second guitar with it and it's turning out great. I'll post some pics when it's buffed.

[durwood]

Duco is the brand name for Du Ponts lacquer. It was available here in black and white only up to about 10 years ago. Before urethane enamels became common the black was the best black you could get. The quality of the product was far superior to the industrial ones that were also available. There was no way you could use the industrial grade (furniture) NC lacquer on a car it couldn'r even be buffed to a good a gloss as the Duco came off the gun.

Acrylic lacquer black was withdrawn from the market shortly after its release (it cracked badly) and NC black had to be used in its place for years. The pigment and the acrylic resin didn't like each other. The NC black is still widely used on grand piano's but not many of them are made in Australia. Overseas its still available especially in countries with lousy weather like England they used it on a lot of their cars (Rolls Royce for instance) up to a few years ago Like all paint companies profit is god. Supplying just a few of us is not their idea of making money so we miss out.

Nitrocellulose lacquer used on cars "Duco" is more flexible than you think. If a panel gets smashed it has to crumple up pretty bad before it cracks. The test yused to be to bend a metal panel around a 5mm dia rod into a "U" if it didn't crack it was accecpable for use.

By the way leather lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer, the difference being you add about a tea spoon of castor oil to a litre of mixed lacquer. So don't pay for so called special lacquer when you can make it yourself.

[MoonShine]

"By the way leather lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer, the difference being you add about a tea spoon of castor oil to a litre of mixed lacquer. So don't pay for so called special lacquer when you can make it yourself".

Now we're cooking with gas! Happen to do leatherwork and have a decent supplier a stones throw away from where I live, will certainly be looking into this one. Thanks yet again.

[Mick C.]

Hi, i'll be honest and say i was too lazy to read every post in this thread, but i havn't seen anyone say to use a modern automotive 2pak clear coat??? I've seen a number of people say to use acrylic and say its great!, well its actually really really crap when it comes to hard and gloss compared to a modern 2pak clear coat. Granted with acrylic you can polish out a scratch or mark, cause its quite soft, somethign you cant do with 2pak because of how hard the finish gets, but a shine that will last and look like water when done properly!

Go and see an automotive panel shop and ask them, or get them to do your painting, or get a hundred mils of clear coat and hardner and thinnners and give it a go, but again, you will need a spray gun, only way to do it if you are serious!:)

[China]

As mentioned previously rustins plastic coating I have and still use this product extensively I highly recomend it. Goblet turners who turn usable goblets i.e they can be washed also use it. it can be brought up to glass like finish that rivals french polihing

[durwood]

THe experts who do guitars seem to indicate here that polyurethane finishes affect the sound given out of the instrument. Thats why they use the lacquer.

If this is true 2 pack polyurethanes probably effect the sound because they are a lot thicker coating than lacquer. If you brushed a 2 pack enamel (thats 2 pack polyurethane,2 pack acrylic urethane (auto clear) or any other enamel) each coat would be equal in thickness of about 3-4 coats of lacquer. So you would have a really thick layer of clear over the it. I suspect the Rustins plastic coating would be the same.

2 packs are hard, if you want a hard surface they are the only ones to use. BUT they are dangerous to use, especially if sprayed and the dust when they are sanded is just as dangerous. You need good ventilation and a good mask (at least).

I would personally use 2 pack acrylic urethane enamel (auto stuff) on wood. It is far superior to all the others for all jobs except a wooden floor. Estapol is harder and made to do just that. I have motor vehicles with timber on them and it enables wood to be exposed to sunlight without any problems (estapol is for interior use.)

MICK C: 2 pack auto clear can be buffed and polished, in fact its one of the auto trades biggest problems they have as the painters knowing they can buff, apply the paint poorly and then take extra time polishing out the surface when its supposed to be an off the gun finish.

Unless you can get a small quantity off someone who has the material the problem for most people is the costs involved. You have to buy quantities far in excesss of what you want. A litre of the hardener can cost up to $80-$100 and for a litre of clear and you only need a 1/4 to a 1/2 the amount of hardened, it also doesn't last long once opened so it can be an expensive exercise. A lot of the paint systems have 3 hardeners and 3 thinners also and depending on the temperature of the day will depend how you mix it.

I havn't mentioned the equipment you have to have especially the correct gun or it won't come out well and a good mask (and a booth would be good) and then you have to be good enough at spraying to actually get the right result. I think thats why the paint has been bypassed in the dicussion. Its not for amatures, but I'll agree with you it is the best finish you could use - if its not going to affect the tone of the guitar.

[MoonShine]

Update, have rang the local Leather dealer and they have a product in a pint, (roughly 500ml?) containers of stuff called Neatlac. Chap over the phone reckons it has on the bottle that it is alcohol based?....so not sure if this is the same animal?
He did assure me it is a thin high gloss finish. $20 a bottle and will be easily enough mixed with 1/2 litre of thinners (and a teaspoon of castor oil) for one guitar so really hoping this is the real deal.
But will definately be spraying onto a laminated piece of scrap board or something first.

Too expensive a guitar to be experimenting with shellacs, 2pacs etc.. Many if not most guitar producers insist on a thin, hard setting coat to retain the tone. Thickish coats of shellac, polyurethane or eg., epoxies will kill it apparently.
Alright for a cheapie brand but way too risky and devastating for an expensive acoustic which cost over a $1,000 retail/new.

Can I please ask what the castor oil actually does when mixed?...this has got me intrigued.

[durwood]

moonshine: if its alcohol based its like shellac not NC.

500mls = 1/2 teaspoon

one teaspoon per litre or a quart in imperial measurement.

[MoonShine]

Ok thanks Durwood, will ring around to other Leather dealers on Monday.

[durwood]

Moonshine, me thinks you have shot off on a tangent here.

Leather lacquer is NC lacquer with the addition of a placticiser (castor oil in this case) all paints usually have a flexing agent to add if you want to sprays a flexible surface . The NC needs to be really flexible if you spray the leather., On a car you would add it to car paints for the soft flexible plastic parts. The more flex you want the more you put in -UP TO A LIMIT

It shouldn't be needed for wood, you could add a fraction of a teaspoon full but NC by itself is OK for wood.Thats what its mainly being sold for these days. If the wood is going to move as much as you can move leather on your lounge or your shoes then its going to fall apart. The point I was making is that special guitar lacquers are probably a waste of money, a good quality NC would be just as good ( maybe even better) and all they would have in them is something no better than the castor oil. IF ITS REALLY NEEDED?????

If the wood moves enough to crack NO paint will prevent that.

[MoonShine]

"shot off on a tangent here..."?

Um! I was merely enquiring what the castor oil additive actually does thanks Durwood, and my mention that I'll be checking out other leather merchants is because you gave me the tip that thier lacquer is NC, I haven't had much luck getting NC so far.

I am simply after a supplier of NC in Adelaide but getting thrown around all over the place at the moment but at least my phonecalls are cheaper than running around in the old bus lol.
Latest possibility is a Wattyl product called Nucat....again, will find out tomorrow morning.

I definately don't want a flexible finish for the guitar, want it thin, super hard fast drying and with a much superior gloss to all other finishes.

Will also be returning a call to Mirotone asking for a Precat...

[durwood]

Moonshine: Both Wattyl and Mirotone used to make straight NC ask them if they still do. As they were the furnature trades main suppliers I would be suprised if they didn't still.

Either way ask them to send you the techniclal data sheets for the products you are interested in. Usually thiese paints come without anything of use on the label as they expect the trade to know the info.

Every company has to havedata sheets for each product (health and safety) but it contains all info, thinning ratios, drying times number of coats, what to swallow if you decide to have a swig of it!!!!!!etc

[soundman]

lets just clarify a couple of issues here.

Nitro laquer is prefered by instrument makers for a couple of reasons.

Its tonal performance is due to the fact that in the cured state it is crisper than many other finishes, shelac is at least as crisp andat least as hard.

Another tonal reason is that it can be laid on very thin........ very very thin... and the laquer is happy with that... lots of other finish products have problems with the chemistry and the reiability of the cured film if you thin too much or lay on too thin.....hell there are people out there spraying nitro with 80% thinner..... try that with just about anythiong else.

It is fast..... realy fast you can put down 4 coats in a day no problem if the wheather is going your way.

It isn't a fussy finish, you don't need to sand past P180 if you are in a hurry and following coatsmelt into previous coats with no need to sand to achieve a key.

You can do all sorts of funky stuff with it by adding tinters....... If you check out your instrument history the sunburst finish started in the "nitro era" because with sprayed nitro.... you can.

Nitro is still available very easily... it is usualy called pre catalised laquer. Mirotrone sell scads of the stuff every day.... yess you have to buy 4 litres but it keeps forever and it isn't expensive.

nitro is still available in clear and solid colours.

If you want a realy glossy..... realy glossy finish you almost certainly will need to buff...... look realy closely at the last realy realy shiny black guitar you saw.....you will see signs of being buffed.

Shelac is a reasonable option for stringed instruments.... it too is hard... crisp and can be layed on realy realy thin.... it is prety cheap and easy to get in small quantities.

you don't have to french polish to use shelac.... it can be brushed(if you are clever), wiped, sprayed.... people have been doing stringed instruments in it for centuries.

Automotive acrillics and twopack stuff are wonderfull things but if you are fussy... not on youir gituar.... while they are hard & resilient they are also elastic and more flexible. They also have to go on thicker in the gun and require thicker film thickness (AFAIK)

Gloss.... you may think you want the highest gloss.... on black or solid colours almost certainly..... but on clears comming back a little to 70%, 80% or 90% gloss is sometimes smart 70% can still look PBshiny on a timber surface and wont show imperfections anywhere near as badly.

Just an aside... a bloke I know stripped his fender and had to play some gigs.... so he put it back together...... he says it was horible....had a whole heap of harsh top end and twangy rubbish going on.... just about drove him nuts all weekend....he got some finish back on it and it sounded like its old self.

yes finish does mater on a solid body electric......on both electrics and acoustics the whole process asumes there will be a finish on the gituar... so dont get to bent and twisted about it all.

Just some stuff to think about.

cheers

[China]

Moonshine, I suggest you buy a small craft size pack of Rustins plastic coating and trry it on some scrap timber I think you will be supprised

[MoonShine]

Thanks China, will certainly be checking that one out. Did a Google on Rustins Plastic Coating and looks impressive.
Can it be thinned to spray?...not too keen on brush strokes unless it is self-levelling.

Bingo! First Monday morning phonecall was a success. Rang Wattyl who gave me another contact number where they sell Stylwood Lacquer (NC) at 95% gloss @ $50 for a 4lt tin.
Thats good enough for me and will get a decent sized container of thinners which together, should be enough to spray a heap of items.

Thanks for your help all...

[China]

Yes Rustins can be thinned for spraying

[reeves]

nitrocelluose is the standard guitar finish that does what u want.
There r some water based ones avilable from www.lmii.com

[pauli]

Gday all.. just found this thread.. Just some info for those interested - the SP610 I had ordered in over the counter from Autobarn on Elizabeth St (near corner of Victoria st) in the city. Was about $16.. I've done some tests which looked ok, but I sourced it for my acoustic, then ended up going with Rustin's Danish oil and a wax buffed in after which has come up absolutely beautifully (for me) .. Plenty of steel wool in between coats after i messed up using a sanding sealer, and its actually come out with quite a nice lustre.. not mirror finish or anything, but very nice none the less with tiger eye like effect on the grain..

cheers,
Paul.

[glorybe]

Hi all

Well for the past few months I've been using K&H's acrylic gloss clear spray for my funny little solidbody electric guitars, but now that winter is upon us I'm having problems with lots of bloom and clouding of the finish (especially over solid colours!) even after using IXL-Tastic heat lamps in my workshop to warm the bodies first. The acrylic is great for a clear finish over timber, but it does need about a week to harden enough to avoid fine scratches to the finish, and Crash Supplies where I buy the stuff have suggested a month for hardening would be a better idea!

I'm at the point where I'm thinking of farming out the finishing to someone else who's set up with spray gear to do the job. I'm guessing people who make furniture don't leave their stock out to dry for a month... they'd have a workshop full of pieces and nowhere to work. What's the industry standard for a thin glossy clear coat that resists scratching?

Also... I've thought about using a tung oil type product. At the timber and working with wood show there was a guy doing demos with an oil product, maybe Organoil. He was applying it with an oscillating orbital sander. I asked him how it would work for guitar bodies with cutaways and he said it would be too hard to work with in those areas. In the US people rave about Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil. Has anyone here used it with good results? Would something like a car polisher for the flat areas and lots of elbow grease for the cutaways actually work?

Thanks in anticipation! I finished a few pieces with tung oil and did not realize that sun light would really mess it up fast. The pieces looked great until they turned into a mess!

[JupiterCreek]

A Ressurrection.... except it's Christmas, not Easter! :eek:

I'm now using the K&H clear acrylic if the weather's not too hot nor too cold, and Mirotone's Miralac nitro at other times. The Miralac comes in semi-gloss and satin for under $10 per 300g spray can. I buy in carton lots so it's $7 plus GST, and at the moment the satin is on special for $2.40 plus GST per can, so I'm doing most of my coats in satin and then the final couple in the semi-gloss. Unfortunately they don't do a full gloss.

[tanii51]

another thought.. try protec at gilman they will put yuo onto a guy called john mac( somethin) they are an industrial paint manufacturer from automotive to who knows what im sure john will be able to give yuo some helpfull advice as he did me