Developing Finishing Technique

[NewLou]

Gidday:)

As with most large projects they often lead to developing new interests and side projects. I've recently been building my first real workbench and am discovering none of the 'Arts' in the Woodies realm are perhaps darker than the archaine and often frustrating voyage of developing your own set of finishing techniques.

Indeed it appears that most of us find a finish we like that works and stick to it. Seldom game to develop new skills and discover the limitations of various other approaches to finishing & technique.

Lets face it unless you approach finishing as a labor of love it often can be a slow laborious process thats easily dropped before efforts and investments in a given project are truely realised.

The wouldbe finisher needs to come to grips with a number of choices and consideraions to orchestrate an admirable finish. For example is the stock open or closed grain; preparing timber to get the most out of the chosen finish. Desired sheen and lusture

...............the list goes on & for the finishing novice can soon become frustrating & confusing often leading to that dreaded can of poly and the el cheapo brush:eek: a quick fire cheap n nasty solution bound to stiffle the wouldbe finishers enthusiasm.

So what I thought would be a great idea for forum members would be to create a primer for all the new finishers out there (including me) and share some tips and tricks in regards to developing a sound finishing technique!

Whats the best advise you would give in regards to finishing?
and whats your favourate Finish?

REgards Lou:D:D:D

[journeyman Mick]

...........Whats the best advise you would give in regards to finishing?
and whats your favourate Finish?...............

Learn how to spray.
Pre cat lacquer.

Mick

[echnidna]

and how to prepare the wood before you spray it

[Harry72]

Best technique... read Neils book and learn what differing types of finish involve.

[Gra]

I'm with harry, got it last week (late birthday present). Read it cover to cover that night... (Boy I need a life). now to put some of those tips into use....

[Chesand]

When all else fails read the instructions on the container

[ubeaut]

http://ubeaut.com.au/book.html
.

[NewLou]

yer ..................um

What page should I turn to:)!

I can see theres lots a fans of various texts n resources I guess what I'm really interested in is what you have found really works for you?

For instance:

1. When prepping stock do you work through the grits upto say 400?
2. Do you sand further than 400 grit and if so how far do you go?
3. What routine have got into with your sanding?
4. Do you wet the stock down after the first sand?

For me I tend to use a combination of:

1. HAndplaning (LV LA Smoother)
2. HAndscraping
3. Random Orbit + Hand Sanding

After Planing & scraping I Random orbital sand with 220 grit & hand sand up to 400. So far this has resulted in the stock becoming silky smooth to the touch. I wet down then HAndsand with 400grit Wet n Dry n theres ya apples!

However when you listen to dudes like Michael Dresdner (Finishing Expert) he reckons most of us tend to oversand. His recommendation is to only go upto 320 grit garnet paper???

I also recall reading that you can use a cotton glove and if the glove dosent catch on the stock and appears smooth then its ready for finishing!

What do you try to achieve when preparing stock for finishing and how do you go about it?

REgards Lou:D:D:D

[RufflyRustic]

Test pieces.

If trying a new finish or timber, always try on scrap first, preferably the same as the wood you want to finish.

Write the details on the back of the wood or keep the paper with the wood so you have details to refer back to.

cheers
Wendy

[Richardwoodhead]

Visit furniture shops, galleries, friends, shows etc. Look at all the different finishes and decide which one's you like most. Then ask questions. Type of finish, gloss level, application method, wood preparation. You cant do this from books or magazines, you've got to get up close and personal.

Once you've seen and felt the type of finish you REALLY want for your own work, the BEST way of learning how to achieve it is to find someone (even if you have to pay them) to show you how it's down. From final wood preparation to final finish coat. You can read & experiment all you like. And this will get you a long way toward your goal. But (from my experience) one session with a experienced finisher applying the finish of your choice, and you'll be miles ahead.

My preferred finish options are...

First: Acid Cat Lacquer / 40 % gloss (Satin finish). Hence Spray finish

Second: Oil / Poly mix (Feast Watson Floorseal) - Applied by spraying.

Spraying gives a perfect even finish. But if there are any minor blemishes, then there's always that MIRACULOUS PRODUCT.... Ubeat EEE Ultrashine. Which can also be used regardless as a nice final rub on coat.

I always final sand to at least 180 grit orbital. And always lightly sand between coats with 320 grit (orbital). Both sanding jobs are done with the BEST FINAL / FINISH SANDING TOOL EVER MADE- a Festool ES 150 (maybe it's EQ?) with vacuum hose attachment to remove fine dust as you're sanding. I was also taught finsh sanding by a pro - particularly where edge work / rolled edges are involved. So try to find someone who can provide a hands on demo.

Lou, my six cents worth for you.

Richard

[NewLou]

Gidday Richard:D

Thank you so much for the informative reply....................Just the kind of advise I was looking for.

I really do think theres a lot of wisdom in your suggestions n reckon theres nothing like gaining first hand experience from the pros! BUT I guess many of us do not have the opportunity to get face to face advise and experience from the xperts.

Do finishers attent the working with wood shows to give such advise?


I'm presently experimenting with a fest & Watson Spar Marine Varnish/Tung oil mix which so far is giving me great results..............I'm Upto 2nd coat will keep everyone posted on the outcome!

REgards Lou:D

[echnidna]

Gidday Richard:D

Thank you so much for the informative reply....................Just the kind of advise I was looking for.

I really do think theres a lot of wisdom in your suggestions n reckon theres nothing like gaining first hand experience from the pros! BUT I guess many of us do not have the opportunity to get face to face advise and experience from the xperts.

Do finishers attent the working with wood shows to give such advise?


I'm presently experimenting with a fest & Watson Spar Marine Varnish/Tung oil mix which so far is giving me great results..............I'm Upto 2nd coat will keep everyone posted on the outcome!

REgards Lou:D

Neil does, but you might need lotsa luck to find him during a quite spot.

[Richardwoodhead]

Lou, depends where you're located, but I'm sure forum members would be happy to share experience. I remember Major Panic and others ran a spray finishing workshop last year. (Or was it the year before!) I'm in the west, so it's a bit far. I've found the pro's are happy to give advice. Another good option is to call the manufacturers or distributors of your favorite finish. They are usually happy to help and might tell you about someone "local" who will give hands-on help. (My lacquer distributor has provided demo's at their head office, and they also have a travelling rep). It may take some time & searching, but hopefully you could locate someone. It's maybe more helpfull for more technically challenging finishing techniques like spraying. I must have read every spraying guide published, but an hour with a furniture sprayer taught me more than weeks (years) of reading about it.

Richard

[NewLou]

Gidday:)

Lately I've been thinking that theres no use being able to turn out a great 'piece' if I don't know how to finish. So I've been experimenting with a few little mixes and brews. I figure at least this way I know whats in it and can develop a few finishes that can become stable mates in my finishing arsenel.

So far I have been really happy with a Wipe on VArnish I've been developing n if forum members want to make suggestions n contrabutions we'll call it the 'Forum Mix'

I wanted to develop a finish that bring out lusture/ you can build n rub out & hopefully offers some good protection. I plan to wipe on about 10 coats n do a final finish with eee ultrashine & wax

1 part mineral turpentine (100ml)
2 parts feast & watson marine varnish (200ml)
2 parts pure tung oil (200ml)

I'd like to get some feedback from forum members about what kind of cloth/setup is your favourate for wiping on finishes.

All suggestions comments feedback really appreciated.

I'll do regular posts n pics on how the finish develops the stock is ASH and I've been doing a light sand between coats with 320 grit wet n dry.

REgards Lou

[Richardwoodhead]

Lou, I think your mix sounds spot on. Should give you the finish you're after. I'm not sure about drying time between coats though. What are you planning on doing - leaving overnight? Also, will your wipe-on method involve removal (wipe-off) of any excess? The wipe on methods I've seen are really a "wipe-on / wipe-off" technique. Bit wasteful really.

I'd love for you to give this a go... Get hold of even a cheapie spray gun & pot. Borrow an air compressor. Fill the pot with your mix and spray on an even coat. Let it dry (4-8 hours). Sand back with a random orbital (circular festool / bosch / makita) with 320 grit. Remove any fine sanding powder (blow with air compressor / wipe with dry cloth). Then re-spray. (Clean out the gun with turps in-between sprays) Once dry, that should do it. Finito. Beautiful, silky smooth, even. (Much better & easier than wiping / ragging on) If you want, a buff with EEE Ultrashine and you'll have perfection!! Please try it - even if it's just to humour me!!

Then as one last experiment on your journey of finishing discoveries - grab a can of Feast Watson Floorseal and use the same technique. Maybe add 10% turps. My bet is you'll get an identical or even better (more durable) finish.

(Then after doing this for a few years and taking 2 or 3 days to finish each piece, you might chance on someone doing a 40% gloss acid cat lacquer spray. The job will be finished in a few hours and the finish will be perfect. But that's another story...)

Richard

[NewLou]

Gidday Richard:)

The attempt I'm making at developing a good Wipe on Varnish incoporates probably the greatest finishing ingredient there is............patience;).

This ones more for fine furnature pieces rather than production runs in which spray applictions dominate and rightly so just for the reasons you have outlined.

My motivation comes from what I consider pretty poor results from products in the present market. I'm trying not to suggest that these finishes don't work well BUT am convinced that I can come up with something better (I Hope:p)

At the very least I'll know exactly what is in them and can adjust things as required. Using a wipe on technique is pretty effecient particularly if you setup your applicator (Much like a polishers rubber) and take care in regards to how much finish is applied to it.

Dry time between coats is at least 12 hrs...................I prefer 24. To date I've applied 3 coats and plan to do around 10 due to the thinness of the coat being applied.

I'll be trying a few combinations to the mix..................specially more tung oil in an attempt to bring out more figure in the stock ................. but at this stage thats down the track.


Don't worry I'll be mucking round with some spraying in the not to distant future;)


Regards Lou:D:D:D

[dhurrang]

Hey Lou,

Good thread :)

The pics below are some experiments I've been doing (right or wrong I don't know)

Pic1 is Blue Gum (left) and Yellow Box (right). I've sanded using the ROS to 400 and then used Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil as per instructions :eek: The Minister is stunned !! "You read the instructions ????!!!!!!"

Not quite the finish I expected but certainly shows the patina :cool:

Pic2 is Blue Gum picture frame mouldings I'm trying to sand seal with an old bottle of "white polish" and the ROS. Polish purchased at the "B" shop on special (age). Metho cleanup so I presume shelack based (white shelack???). seems to do the job ;)

I'd like a glossier finish !!!!! but sealing the organoil seems a bit of a waste:(

I know one thing though ..... 90% of the finish is in the prep. ya gotta luv sanding:rolleyes:

[Richardwoodhead]

Hi Lou,

Having been a keen reader of your comments over the last couple of years, I appreciate the enthusiasm, dedication and professionalism of your approach to woodworking. Wish I knew how to put those smiling picture faces here, so I could add a string of them.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying about production finishes and there's certainly truth in that. The modern furniture production guys, even the high end galleries that I'm aware of, seem to opt for the quicker, lacquer spray finishes.

In my own case, I started with your approach. I could write a small book on the journey I've trod trying to achieve a good finish. It is, I reckon, the most difficult aspect to making fine furniture. In summary though, I started with the pure oils. Doing everything I could to get a nice satin finish that showed off the grain. Life is too short. Plus they are just not durable under attack from kids spills and hot objects. Then I went to the mixes - where you are now - cooking my own. And I did multiple tests on multiple test pieces. I ended up with about the mix that you're now using - maybe one part less turps. (I even used the exact same Feast Watson Poly). And I was prepared to be patient (was patient) and spend days applying multiple coats. But I found I still couldn't achieve a great finish with the wipe on oil/poly mixes until I had done a final rub down with some kind of wax (cornauba) or EEE Ultrashine. Then one day, for the heck of it, I sprayed on my oil/poly mix. It was an epiphany. I still did the 8 hours to overnight wait between spray coats (so patience is required). But the spray application gave a much smoother and more even coat and I think it puts on more product. After experimenting with this I found (with only 5-10% turps) I could get a great final oil/poly finish with only 2 full spray coats. Especially table tops. (For tricky things like cabinets / vertical surfaces, I went for 3 or 4 thinner coats). And the final rub down with EEE was optional. I looked great either way.

So in my journey, I used to wander around the furniture shops & galleries & exhibition halls tearing at my hair wondering how the heck these guys got such great finishes (this was during my pure oil phase). Then I started with the mixes. Then spraying. Have you looked around at what finishes you admire and what they did to achieve them? That started my move away from the pure oils.

Anyway, all offered as food for your thinking. I know you'll end up with a great finish that works well for you.

Cheers,

Richard

[NewLou]

Gidday Richard:D:D:D

Nothing short of fantastic stuff! I really do appreciate your words of wisdom.............theres nothing like getting first hand advise from someone who has already trodden this ground!

I totally agree with all your comments and have come to accept that I'll have to explore spraying in the not to distant future. However I think a number of quivers in the bowstring are well worth having and developing a good varnish is definately up there

Today much the same as your story witht he sparying I was mucking around with a few ideas and came up with a finish that I really like.

Not a varnish but definately suited to low traffic 'pieces' where armour plating the finish from the kids the dog and whatever else plagues a nice piece of furnature under heavy traffic conditions!

Heres a picture of the stock pre and post finish. I achieved this in about 20 minutes. Its Redgum and feels silky to the touch the finish brings out the figure of the timber and looks stunning.

REgards Lou:)

[NewLou]

Gidday:)

I've continued to refine the finish I have been working on and am getting really happy with the results.

Heres a few Pics of the progression

Is a bit hard to pick up the deepening in lusture I've achieved in the Pics But definately an improvement on my last attempt

REgards Lou

[NewLou]

Heres what I did:

Prep stock in your favourate manner I began mine with A Hand Scraper then:

1. ROS 240 grit
2. HAndsand 320 grit
3. Poor some pure tung oil onto the stock then HAndsand with 400 grit Wet & dry.

Now heres where things get a bit unconventional (AFter Wiping off excess oil until stock is dry to the touch)

4. Jump to 1000 grit wet & dry then HAndsand
5. 1200 W@D then Hand Sand
6. 2000 W@D then HAndsand to desired sheen.

Once again an unorthadox step

7. Then I get a swansdown Mop (From U Beaut of course) and polish the Wood to desired Sheen with my hammer drill (Set in drill mode fastest speed)
8. Than apply coat of U Beaut Clear traditional wax and Sand with swansdown mop on slowest speed with hammer drill.

The results are simply stunning! I cant wait to try some EEE as a final touch to the Finish. The finish is simply sensuous to the touch with a deep lusture and medium sheen.

Regards Lou:D:D:D

[Carpenter]

You blokes are raising some good points about finishes. I'm one of the "shedless souls", so am no where near beginning this quest, but the experience I've had with Organoil is that the sheen level all comes back to the fineness of the sanding. Up to 400 dry, then continuing up as far as you like gives an ever improving sheen. It seems to be the secret with the oils.
Lou, your first pic gives a good indication of sheen, what grade did you use?

[Carpenter]

Ahh, you beat me too it!

[johncee1945]

[quote=NewLou]Gidday:)

I'd like to get some feedback from forum members about what kind of cloth/setup is your favourate for wiping on finishes.
-------------------------------------------

Hi Lou my favourite cloth is a slightly heavy cotton canvas because it does not leave much lint or dust on the workpiece. Another regular is those rubberised cheap dishwashing cloths you get in packs. Always using a spiraling motion.

[NewLou]

Gidday:)

Well I got to say its looking like finishing has a lot to do with preparation and getting a feel for applying a certain kind of finish.

After mucking round with preparing my own wipe on varnish I decided to take a crack at using tung oil. Now comes the other ingredient patience:oo:

So far I've been compelled to sand up to 2000 grit for penatrive finishes like Tung oil. TOtally unnecessary BUT works for me

I think theres a great article in one of the recent Fine Woodworking editions on how far to go when preping stock in regards to sanding which gets things into perspective.

Heres the method I used:

1. Prep Tung oil (Howards) with some Terebine (feast N Watson)
2. Apply 1 coat of Tung with favourate rag n leave for fifteen minutes
3. Buff off with clean rag n check every half our or so for Tung Oil seeping out of the grain...................Clean up as required n let dry over night.
4.Next apply another coat of Tung but this time sand with 600grit Wet and Dry until a slurry is formed continue process until your satisfied the grain is filled.
5. Repeat steps 2 and 3 I did this 7 times:oo:
6. Apply U Beat trippleEEE to dried finish I initially buffed this by Hand then I sanded the trippleEEE in with A makita Palm Sander at 2000 grit (Only a light Sand with the grain)
7. Buff finish with Swansdown Mop using your Favourate Method (I use a Bosch HAmmer Drill at low speed then final buff at high speed) VAriable spped hammer drills are really handy with a swansdown mop!!!!!! :D:D:D

For my first go at a Tung Oil Finish I'm really happy with the results. The stock has been grain matched and edge glued straight down the middle which came up a treat.

IF anyone else would like to share their favourate technique with tung oil would be really appreciated

Regards Lou:)

[Waldo]

G'day NewLou,

You've raised a great thread here which is very timely for me. I'm building a cabinet for my hand tools and it raises a questiion I was going to start as a thread, but it links on from yours, so I'll ask it here.

With a cabinet having shelves etc which creates different planes on which to apply eg. tung oil, would you apply the oil to pieces individually then assemble or fully assemble then apply the finish?

The later to my thinking, presents possible prolems in that you are presented with horizontal and vertical surfaces with 90º corners which may open yourself up to drips, runs etc.

Also what is the preferred method to apply tung oil? Wet & Dry paper 400 grit, lint free cloth or other?

cabinet will be made from T/Oak and Jarrah.

[NewLou]

Gidday Waldo:)

At the end of the day your questions come down to what your wanting to achieve and why. A hand tool Cabinate in your Shop might not attract the attention to detail a heirloom piece might demand.

IF its purpose is just storage for your tools you'll knock it up n solve the problems you face as you go. However based on the the stock you've chosen I'd take a guess that you'd like to create something with a little visual impact that adds to the character of your shop:wink:

Planing how your going to go about crafting your cabinate will no doubt save a bit of time and get the best results in regards to achieving your goals.

IF its case work do your sanding and all but the last coat or two (Your bound to get a few scratches n dings along the way that will need ironing out) so for me I definately agree with your inclination to do most of your finishing as you go.

My application process of choice is a lint free cloth I don't use any sandpaper unless I plan to fill the grain or burnish. The more coats applied the more gloss achieved!

I've noticed MAster craftsman like David MArks finish before or after depending on the form & style of the 'piece' he's working on so as always it appears theres no hard n fast rules on this one

Would be great to see you post a few pics here to show your finish of!

REgards Lou:D:D:D

[poida]

Hello all, This is my first post on the forum and would like to say thankyou for a very informative thread!!

I have just finished making a Jarrah Queen size bed (pics below) and was a bit baffled as to what finish to go for or even what grit to sand up to for that matter. Seems in the past i have been oversanding as a fair few here mention to sand to up to 400. I had pretty good stock to start with so i have ROS sanded with 320 then 400. Looking great so far.

After lurking around here for the last week or two i've decided on Feast & Watson Floorseal (I prefer a smooth satin finish thats easily maintainable for scratches and the like) with a bit of Mahogony prooftint stain (10%) to get that really deep red Jarrah look. I have tested on an offcut and comes up beauitful. I woulld like to get a slight sheen on the timber for the final finish and from the posts above, EEE Ultrashine looks like it will do it

Thank you

[NewLou]

Gidday Poida

Sounds like shell come up a treat keep us posted on how you get on n make sure you post when shes finished

Great to hear from you

REgards Lou:D:D:D

[Cruzi]

The Ubueat EEE stuff, I thought was like a "cut and polish" thus I used a lambswool buff, like you do when polishing cars, it seemed to work OK , but noticed you guys seem to use ROS with a very fine sandpaper....
Am I doing it wrong? :?

[poida]

I am also interested in how to apply EEE...

[BrettC]

Lou,

Good thread. Poida - nice bed.

Click on the link for advice on applying EEE http://www.ubeaut.com.au/eee.htm

I've just not long bought a spray gun and am in the process of testing it out with some finishes, a few people have said acid cat laquer or pre cat laquer??? Any brands worth mentioning? I've heard mirotone talked about a bit on here?
:let:

[Cruzi]

All that link says its buff it with a clean soft cloth...

No mention of using sandpaper or a buffer.


To me using sandpaper would be like double redundancy, the tripoli powder would both smooth the paper and the surface, but the coaser(?) grains of the paper would still mark surface at whatever grit you are using...

Tripoli powders and the like, work because as the are worked on the surface the particles reduce in size thus making themselves finer and finer as you buff/polish, this is how commercial cut & polishes work in the automotive industry, hand polishing paint cutters always leave scratch marks because the cutting agent is not worked enough to break down, as will polishing not long enough with a buff which leaves those horrid swirl marks you see left by cowboy operators(also dirty pads or suface grit).

Its probably like everything else, whatever works for you.....:?

[Mattsplatt]

Lou,

Good thread. Poida - nice bed.

Click on the link for advice on applying EEE http://www.ubeaut.com.au/eee.htm

I've just not long bought a spray gun and am in the process of testing it out with some finishes, a few people have said acid cat laquer or pre cat laquer??? Any brands worth mentioning? I've heard mirotone talked about a bit on here?
:let:

OK - I am really good at stupid questions!

What the hell is a cat doing on acid and why does s/he think s/he's a lacquer???

What are you people talking about?? (Said from very dark cave!):wink:

[Wild Dingo]

OK - I am really good at stupid questions!

What the hell is a cat doing on acid and why does s/he think s/he's a lacquer???

What are you people talking about?? (Said from very dark cave!):wink:

Well... ahem... speaking of being from a cave thats what we call the shed cause its dark has cobwebs {and the longer the hand and knee issues continue the mosre cobwebc that congrigate} dust and a coating of sawdust shavings and chunks over everything with mysteriuos monsters hidden at every corner an nook... and mate? like you I have no flamin idea what these gits are onn about

But I really with Richard would elaborate {preferably with pics} on the spray techniques he uses :2tsup:

Im wondering if such would work on the deck of a boat

[Mattsplatt]

Well... ahem... speaking of being from a cave thats what we call the shed cause its dark has cobwebs {and the longer the hand and knee issues continue the mosre cobwebc that congrigate} dust and a coating of sawdust shavings and chunks over everything with mysteriuos monsters hidden at every corner an nook... and mate? like you I have no flamin idea what these gits are onn about

But I really with Richard would elaborate {preferably with pics} on the spray techniques he uses :2tsup:

Im wondering if such would work on the deck of a boat

Thank God I am not on my Pat Malone!!!!:wink:

I am also interested on how Richard et al keep the finish dust free!? I do admit that my shed is messy and dusty and I can't keep it under control. So I am always amazed at the artisans here that keep such a clean space. With spraying I would be throwing dust into the mix as well. But I thought about using some plastic sheeting in a corner somewhere to try make a spray booth. But might just go outside instead, but living near the coast I may have nature's own cutting agent blown into the mix for good measure.:rolleyes:

[thumbsucker]

I have been developing my own finishing process based on my reading from fine-woodworking. I tend to gravitate to hand rubbed oil/varnish/shellac stye finishes due to space restrictions and I also am concerned with exposure to toxic heavy metals and petrochemicals.

This has led me to explore firstly a pure tung/blo oil finish. These were good for exhibiting the timber, but lacked protective qualities I seek.

I am now cooking my own varnish the recipes is as follows.

4 parts Bees Wax
1 part Dammar Varnish
1 part Tung or Boiled Linseed Oil
12 parts Gum Turpentine

After finishing with 1200 wet and dry. I start by rubbing 00 pumice powder as a pore filler. Then I coat 3 layers of shellac, then I sand with 1200 wet and dry to create a slurry to fill the pores. As I understand it this is the start of a traditional french polish which gives you a super even and fine base to work from.

Next I add a thin coat of my varnish, let it dry for an hour, and then a buff it off with a clean cloth. This gives a fine film, that will be dry with in a few hours. Every 24 hours I add and buff a new layer.

The above formula gives a hard matt finish.

I am going to experiment with a more high gloss blend. That will be more viscous and honey like.

1 parts Carnauba wax (more gloss then bee's wax)
1 parts Gum Turpentine
1 part Dammar Varnish
1 part Stood Linseed Oil (not boiled)

The aim is to replicate a Tried and True http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/ like formula.

I may finish with three coats of 1 pound cut shellac. Still not certain.

This is an ongoing process, contributed because it is a bit different to what has been discussed above. I would like to here from others who have or do the same finishing process.

[NewLou]

Gidday

I haven't seen him round for a while but heres a post by Richardwoodhead. I believe this to be a definitive post on spraying.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=19490

Would love to hear some more from you Richard!!!

Regards Lou:)

[Mattsplatt]

Gidday

I haven't seen him round for a while but heres a post by Richardwoodhead. I believe this to be a definitive post on spraying.

Would love to hear some more from you Richard!!!

Regards Lou:)

G'day Lou,

You may have forgotten the link!?

PS Great thread, by the way!:D

[poida]

I'm not a big fan of spraying either due to the dust content and the bastard next door with the lawnmower/weedwhacker every time he thinks i'm varnising something...

I have finished the bed! I had problems keeping a wet edge on the floorseal for the large area of the bed head so i sanded it all off and started again only this time i put it on with a rag then straight away buffed it with the cotton mechanics gloves i was wearing until it was dry. Came up a treat and you don't get that plastic/varnished look. (Looks more like a satin wax finish). As a bonus it filled the grain very well and left no raised grain. (photo's coming soon).

[poida]

Pics Here

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=46117

Feast & Watson Floorseal on Jarrah - hand rubbed on with cotton gloves until touch dry.

[Arch Stanton]

Poida,

I like the smooth finish you achieved, good work. I'd be happy to get a similar result, once I actually make something.

What was your technique for using the EEE? ("EEE For Dummies" method please.)

Brian

[poida]

Poida,

I like the smooth finish you achieved, good work. I'd be happy to get a similar result, once I actually make something.

What was your technique for using the EEE? ("EEE For Dummies" method please.)

Brian

Hi Brian

I haven't actually put the EEE on yet. Hows that for EEE for dummies haha

I will be putting it on once i get some though as there are very slight marks left by the gloves which a polish will get rid of easily.

When i do i will post up how it went.

Poida

[gabacus]

this is a great thread. there is a lot of good information here and i have enjoyed reading it.

i tried EEE for the first time today and i think i did something very wrong.

i like a lacquer finish but i dont have any spray equipment... yes, i do it all with a brush... and a pretty crappy brush... i dont have a lot of money to throw around...

anyway... i have learnt to live with the fact that i was never going to get a showroom finish on my work... i thought to myself "hey, this is just a hobby. nice is ok."

but i cant do it anymore. as i do more woodwork my pieces are getting better but the finish lets them down. so i started to look for information and found this wonderful site!!!

after a little reading i decided the EEE should give me the finish i was after. i decided to try it on a picture frame i just finished. i worked the raw timber to 320 grit with my ROS. applied 2 coats lacquer sanding with 800 grit between coat. after letting the top coat dry for a week i decided to it was time for the EEE. i sanded down to 1200 grit (wet, water as lubricant) then let it dry and wiped off any dust.

i could not find instructions on how to apply EEE so i did my best. i applied the EEE to the surface and spread it as evenly as possible. i then worked it with a woolen buffer on my ROS (medium speed). The finish did not come up the way i was expecting. there is a nice sheen but there is a milky look to it now. i dont know what i did wrong. i would love to hear different ways people apply EEE.

i was thinking though, wouldnt it be just as good to polish the lacquer with a silicone based polish... like a car polish. i thought that may work since there will be not contact with the raw material. has anyone ever tried it?

[gabacus]

ok... did a little more research and i have a couple of things to try

i downloaded one of the videos on finishing off this website. it would appear that eee should be applied with a swansdown mop. im going to carbatec tomorrow to pick one up and i will give it a go on the weekend

i also found a post where someone applied the eee with 400 grit. he said it worked. i dont see how but im gonna give it a go too.

i will let you know how it all goes.

[Schtoo]

Lou, I am coming in late here, but this is what I typically end up doing.

Finish with a plane or scraper OR sandpaper to #320. Do not plane/scrape one surface and sand another because the difference is scary to say the least. I only sand when it's not critical or the grain is boring. If the woods worth looking at, then plane or scrape every time for me.

Then oil, whatever I can get. Either a local flower based oil (dries fast, smells good, not too dark and the base oil is a dietary additive so relatively safe) or BLO.

When that's dry, drown it (with a rag) in water or oil based urethane. Oil based thinned 1:1 with turps, water based 5:1 with water. Let it sit till it's soaked in a bit, then wipe off whats left. If it's water based, bin the rag. Oil based, put the application rag in the wipe off rag, and put it somewhere where it won't dry out oo quickly. Also been known to throw the oil in with the oil based urethane. Works quite well, simple Danish-esque oil.

Next day, scuff sand with #600. Take yesterdays application rag, see that's it still wet/tacky, and use it as a tack cloth to pick up all the sanding dust/crud. Wipe on another coat with a fresh rag and make sure you leave each surface wet before moving to the next bit. Walk away and don't look back till a few hours at least and then do it again. Be gentle and all should be well.

Next day, scuff sand and use your applicator rag as a tack cloth again, repeat application.

At this point, it should look pretty slick. The urethane should self flatten if there's enough there, which is why you walk away and don't look. Let it work. The finish won't be thick, but should be sufficient to give good protection. It's easy to apply since you only need clean rags. Keep it up at regular intervals so the next coat will burn into the previous coat enough to stick without needing sanding. The sanding keeps all the dust nibs down and keeps things flat. Plus you score urethane compatible tack rags, fresh for each sanding episode. I don't use brushes any more, always ended up with more work to get it flat again, lots of drips and other general nastiness.

If you do brush, use the very best brush you can, and make sure it's right for the finish. Makes a poor choice (IMHO) less troublesome.

Also like laquer for smaller stuff, or shellac for things that won't see much dirty work but need protection.


Last time I was in Bunnies, the wood finish section was decent sized.

About 5 times the size it is here.

Here we get generic stuff, or megabuck stuff I can't trust/don't like. I stick to the generic and make it work.

That's what works for me right here anyway. Lack of choice and environmental conditions that are different to what you got.

[Arch Stanton]

Then oil, whatever I can get. Either a local flower based oil (dries fast, smells good, not too dark and the base oil is a dietary additive so relatively safe) or BLO.


Hi Schoo,

thanks for the detailed post. I'm new to the finishing process but have somehow stumbled across a poor man's version of what you have outlined and have seen my results getting better each time. A couple of questions.

What does the initial oil do?

Now, at a risk of looking very dumb, I will show my ignorance.
What sort of oils can I use? Linseed, olive, vegetable? Do I get them at the supermarket or hardware?

Brian

[echnidna]

only use oils that dry
Linseed (flaxseed), tung , walnut and I think grapeseed oil
theres a few other drying oils but I don't recall them all

[Big Shed]

See here for drying oils:

http://www.cad-red.com/mt2/oil.html

[Schtoo]

Yeah, oil that dry are important. Basically, the oil oxidizes with the oxygen in the air and goes hard/rubbery. It's a finish of sorts all by itself, but it has very little durability. Most oil will eventually oxidize all by themselves, but we are talking years at least, possibly centuries.

So, the old way was to boil the oil to speed up it's drying, but now they add chemicals to make the oil dry much faster. The oil I use 'dries' within 24 hours no matter what the weather. Boiled linseed oil can take from 24-72 hours before you can do anything with it.

The oil makes the grain 'pop'. On a plain piece of wood, it's really not worth the effort. On a nice piece of wood, it's definitely worth the effort. You can also mix the oil with the finish as a first sealer coat, but I don't.

The stuff I am doing right now made the wood go from interesting to insane. Not using oil to make the grain come alive would be an insult to the tree.

I will take pics tomorrow to show you what I mean. ;)

[NewLou]

Great to hear from you again Schtoo:D

Great advise too.......................Im really falling in love with rubbed oil finishes & Shellac. I hear a lot champion the merits of urethaine type finishes lacquers etc etc but in the long term I just cant see how an oil rubbed finish can be beaten.

All the others eventually scratch n wear.................... Oil you just re coat n shes back to new....................Ive been lucky enough to meet a finisher thats shown me some aged shellac pieces.............................. Absolutely beautiful

Ive almost got the hang of applying Tung n must say so far its by far my favourate.

REGards Lou:D:D:D

[Richardwoodhead]

Hi Lou,

Must be ESP as I havn't clicked into the forum for quite awhile. But something told me to log in and I saw your posts. As always, you bring great enthusiasm and integrity to your subject matter.

I've been severely distracted over the last year. But it's all coming to an end mid April when I'm free and single again. Poorer, wiser, and happier. Long story that needs many beers to re-tell.

Anyway, I haapen to be doing a crappy wood finishing job for a friend who wanted 12 MDF work benches finished with a hard wearing water proof product. So I went with my trusty Feast Watson Floor Seal which worked a treat. Except for the odd spray gun hassle.

But as I was spraying this 40 square meters of MDF (and swearing on my mothers grave I'd NEVER commit to do anything with MDF again) I began to wonder about the pleasure of a perfect finish that comes from working the wood by hand. Spraying is very clinical. But it's a great way to get a quick and even finish, especially over large surfaces.

But re-reading this thread from go-to-woe, I'm now inspired to re-visit the Tung Oils and ALSO I was very interested in the EEE method..... VIZ:

1. sand to 240 grit
2. use EEE (maybe also sanding in with a VERY fine grit??)
3. apply Shellawax or Shellawax Cream

Job done and with sensual pleasure to boot (being single again, this could be important!)

Anyway... has anyone got any feedback as to how this (or Tung Oil) finishes work for larger pieces like dining tables etc? ALSO - how scratch & heat / water resistant are they?

Good to be back,

Richard

[Schtoo]

Oil's durability is effectively zero as far as I am concerned. If the surface is to see heat, water or abrasion as part of it's MO, then oil is just asking for disappointment.

However, when thrown on a nice flat surface, it looks fantastic.

I put on oil, then oil or water based urethane over the oil. Keep the urethane thin, and you get a nice in the wood finish with heaps more durability. Just make sure you let the oil dry before putting urethane over the top, and keep everything clean otherwise you might get adhesion problems.

See the pic for what it looks like. That includes you Brian. ;)

This is a drawer face chosen because I knew it was going to look pretty good when finished. The picture doesn't do it justice, it changes colour depending on where you stand from golden yellow to deep brown-red.

The bright sections are where oil helps bring out the figure. Straight urethane/laquer over the top will bring it out some, the oil makes it really pop. And since it's a drawer face, it needs to have a durable surface since it's going to get scuffed up with rings, fingernails, etc, etc. The urethane itself isn't easily repairable, but rubbing it back smooth, then wiping on another thin coat brings it back.

BTW, this thing looks flat when sanded. It was planed (from about 10,000 different directions) and scraped where the plane would not work. Made an enormous difference.

[NewLou]

Thx to all for your fantastic contrabutions:D:D:D

Must admit I've certainly read n chewed the fat over different finishes n techniques often with varying n conflicting view points in regards to Tung Oil finishes.

What I have learned that appears to be a rule of thumb well worth considering is The recommended finish on a piece of furniture is very much depended upon the use of that piece, that is, what is the wear and tear factor is going to be.

The alternative to natural rubbed oil n oil blends being a lacquered type 'coating' or build finish will start accumulating marks and scratches from day one, even the tougher two pack lacquers are no comparison to the 100% natural finish (In my opionion)

N I really think thats a factor worth considering build type finishes particularly in the longer term will ultimately offer less durability. In twenty years time a table with a natural finish will look even better than the day it was purchased and that simply won't happen with any artificial coating no matter how good it is.

n recent years, those who appreciate the warm richness of beautiful wood have begun to realize what the ancient Chinese knew; when turned into a finishing product, Tung Oil is the finest natural wood finish in existence and has yet to be duplicated synthetically! (In my opionion)!

A Tung Oil finish is hard yet flexible, water-resistant and impervious to alcohol and many food acids. Polymerized Tung oil as a penetrating oil allows wood to continue its aging process and to develop its patina.

The wood's rich color and grain are enhanced by the natural ambering (coloring) of Polymerized Tung oil over time. Any sign of wear disappears when a thin "maintenance" coat of oil is rubbed in. The maintenance coats, rather than cause a build-up, actually improve the patina as they protect and preserve the wood. A floor, a piece of furniture, or any other wood object finished and maintained with Polymerized Tung Oil will never have to be stripped again.The finish will become more beautiful with time and will not conceal the timbers tactile qualities.

As I've learnt more about finishing I've come to the conclusion that all finishing techniques will wear to varying degress depending on their purpose.Some finishes provide excellent short to medium term protection whilst others continue to evolve (eg Tung oil finishes that develop a patina or aged shellac) and actually improve with time. Its these qualities that attract me to a HAnd Rubbed Tung Oil Finish!!!

Regards Lou:D:D:D

[thumbsucker]

Were do you get polymerized /stood Tung oil in OZ? What about Sun thickened Tung oil which has a much faster drying time then polymerized oil - see here (http://www.cad-red.com/mt2/oil.html#sun%20thickened), I have a bottle of pure tung oil that I am thickening with the sun it will take 4 months. :(

[ciscokid]

Not using oil to make the grain come alive would be an insult to the tree.



I couldn't possibly agree any more. Well said. :2tsup:

[Arch Stanton]

I am learning a fair bit from this thread.

I once put pure tung oil on the pedestal base of my poker table. It looked great when I frist did it.

The problem was it never really seemed to dry and after the first game it was all scuffed from people's shoes.

I have since reveneered the base and this time I stained it and finished it with a matt poly. This time it didn't scuff but it also is nothing special to look at.

I'm not going to do it again but for future projects I'll try tung, poly,EEE.

Schtoo, I did look at the pic. :) I imagine that it would look a lot better in the flesh.

Brian

[Schtoo]

n recent years, those who appreciate the warm richness of beautiful wood have begun to realize what the ancient Chinese knew; when turned into a finishing product, Tung Oil is the finest natural wood finish in existence and has yet to be duplicated synthetically! (In my opionion)!

A Tung Oil finish is hard yet flexible, water-resistant and impervious to alcohol and many food acids. Polymerized Tung oil as a penetrating oil allows wood to continue its aging process and to develop its patina.


Regards Lou:D:D:D


Why did you ask the question if this was the answer for you and you already knew it? :?

I don't use tung oil, never have and probably never will. Can't get it. ;)

I do use a different oil that's fairly similar and dries faster, and I have trouble getting that too.


Oiled wood is very nice, but like I said above it has zero durability. No resistance to abrasion, moisture or heat. If any one of those conditions exist to a significant degree, then the wood is going to turn to garbage pretty quickly, and no re-application is going to fix it.

On a nice chair that's rarely sat on, great. On a small jewelry box, fine. On a dining table, go right ahead but I might be able to resist saying "I told you so" when the finish and the underlying wood is permanently damaged by someone spilling their gravy... :rolleyes:


(BTW, ever seen a properly applied Japanese finish? Slicker than snot, hard as a rock and the laquer comes from trees...)

[NewLou]

Why did you ask the question if this was the answer for you and you already knew it? :?



What question are you referring to Schtoo?:?:?:?

With respect......................Put simply I just don't agree with your statements about Tung oil and its lack of durability...............do a Google search

How much abrasion, moisture or heat do you expect indoor finishes to be exposed to?

Properly prepped and applied a Tung oil finish is durable enough to easily cope with the odd spill of gravey etc IF you were to get some kind of damage or stain easy repairability is the biggest advantage of a tung finish.

Bet that Jap lacquer finish would be a real hog to do a repair on:rolleyes:

Regardless I don't think theres any 'perfect' finish they all have their pros/cons strengths n weaknesses.

I just happen to love the way a well done Tung finish 'popps' the grain and evolves as it ages.....................something most other finishes dont do anywhere near as well!!!!

REgards Lou:D:D:D

[manoftalent]

I have only done small spray jobs at the moment but one thing that really bothers me due to the time it wastes is dust ....so I built a portable booth out of 3mm ply that I had lying around ...basically four panels all hinged about 1800mmx1200mm.....so when I closed the last piece over by hand I had a draft free place to spray in ....I usually apply a sanding sealer after the stain(if I use one)..sand back ..then apply high gloss top coat and rub back again...and follow on through with two more coats ....my trick is to wet sand back and blow dry....then move the booth to a free dust free space and spray again.....the work is on a lazy susan for easy movement, and I apply the spray in small thin coats rather than rush it .....all this is done on the back lawn ....an area where I have plenty on room to move about .......the booth is only surrounding the workpiece when spraying ....not sanding ...to avoid contamination.....and I lay el cheapo plastic drop sheets on the grass (not that it matters, one cut and the evidence is gone)...but it does help to provide a draft free enviroment ....the top of course is left open air ....so I can breath ....and plenty of natural daylight to see what I am doing ....

so too sum it up ...finishing is like bread making .....the more effort you put in, the better result ....