Rant from a workplace counsellor

[Clinton1]

I've been hearing, or noticing, a lot of bollocks lately. Mostly its realated to the "workplace counselor" role I play at as one of the many extra's I do at work. (in fact I'm taking a break from it at the moment)
What has caught my attention is the whole "weakness" culture that seems to be popular at the moment.

Things that I have heard lately that will give you an idea of what I mean are:
"When he/she doesn't agree with my opinion they de-validate me",
"I can't perform well without him/her making me feel supported and included",
"If I don't have their approval it makes me feel...",
"I have issues from the way my mother and father brought me up and I am having counselling for it and taking medication and thats why I behaved the way I did",
"I have some stress in my personal life and need to leave work early on Friday so I can get some counselling/aromatherapy/attend my group validation session", (???)
"When they didn't ask me 'how that made me feel' I felt that they did not respect me as a human being".

Yup, I've heard all of that over the last 4 or 5 months. The comments mostly come from people with university degress, or those that have partners that have attended uni recently. Common denominator?

Or that Jana Pittman creature "I know that when I really need it, I'll have the support of the Australian people"... I mean she just runs, right?

The best one is the "Group Validation", basically people sitting around bitching and moaning about stuff and telling each other "You are right, You are ok, You are special, Its not your fault".

Bloody tossers. Usually its the same few idiots as well.

Generally I use a technique of getting them to relate to strong role models - basically a PC way of making them tell me that they are failures and that they should get over it. From there I can start to make progress with them and start to get them to see a healthier way of thinking.

So, am I stuck in the Twilight Zone, or have other people noticed this same thing? i.e. a weakness culture.
Feel free to comment if you think the examples are fair and reasonable as well.

[Andy Mac]

Hi Clinton,
I reckon there is something in what you've brought up. My initial response is that nobody is prepared to take blame or responsibility for their own actions anymore...exemplified by the whole litigation thing. Like stepping on a rake in someone else's backyard; or riding a motorbike without a helmet or footwear and blaming the land owner. Or even the pub after you get blind and kill someone in your car.

Regards,

[Waldo]

G'day Clinton1,

For these people and to quote Pink Floyd, "Let's get 'em up against the wall". :eek:

Needless to say I have no time at all for this kind of person. Accept responsibility or get out.

[CameronPotter]

:eek: :eek:
Clinton, I thought that people only joked about that kind of stuff!!

Arrrghhhh. It is all too horrible.

Cam

[Wongo]

Bloody psychologists make it possible. Things happen for a reason and it is always something to do with your childhood and the society. Were you abused by your father or were you bullied at school? You need to express your feeling. So tell me …..:rolleyes:

[Driver]

As some of you know, before my semi-retirement I was general manager of a fairly large enterprise. Here's a brief anecdote from a few years back:-

We had a colleague who contracted a terminal illness. This tragedy was made worse because she was still young and had young children. Many of us had known her for quite a while and were very saddened by the prospect of losing our friend.

One of our younger, brighter people (who is now doing very well as a quite senior manager with the same group) approached me. He said he had been talking with his girlfriend about the impending death of our colleague. His girlfriend was a recently-graduated teacher. She had suggested to him that we should bring counsellors into the workplace to help us all deal with the tragic circumstances. I told him - in a few short sentences - that we were not going to do anything of the kind. To do so would be self-indulgent and we would better help our dying friend and her family by focussing on their troubles and not by turning it into something that only affected us.

His girlfriend rang me the following day to berate me for my lack of sensitivity. I invited her over and sat them both down. I gave them my views on the self-obsessed culture which demands that every twist in life's fortunes should be used as an excuse to demand ego-massaging "support" from psycho-babbling space-wasters. I also told my bright young colleague that everyone is entitled to make a mistake once. His was to think it at all appropriate for his partner to criticise the way his boss managed the business. I explained that he was a member of the organisation and therefore his views were valid. His partner's were not. I was indulging them by talking to them both but would not be so indulgent again.

It was a very considerable shock to them both. I'd like to be able to report that I had changed their views on the world but I suspect that they simply thought I was a dinosaur. Mind you, there was no more talk of counsellors!

Col

[bitingmidge]

If anyone thinks it's someone elses fault, I fire them.

This is specially true if they think it's my fault.

Having said that, I have never fired anyone for making a bad decision PROVIDED they can tell me the reason they made it.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly support benevolence, compassion and what used to be called "equity", I just don't tolerate any of those things as an excuse for non-performance.

Given your line of work Clinton.... well I just shudder!! ;)

Cheers,

P

[Iain]

A friend of mine used this crap toi his advantage, always in trouble in his department for his outspoken views in his Gov Dept he was on the mat again before an all female disciplinary board.
They launched their offensive, he responded with "You only pick on me because I'm gay".
He's not but it worked, got left well alone after that.

[Slavo]

In this "I want it all and I want it now" society, if people don't get respect immediately they go off sulking to their mums like small minded little children. Respect, like trust, takes a long time to establish through word and action. Like many words, 'respect' has now lost its original meaning and now appears if you don't like someone, you don't respect them - bollocks, I've worked with people who I didn't like but respected them because of their professional expertise
I wish some people would just take their balls out of their handbags and get on with life

[JDarvall]

I wish some people would just take their balls out of their handbags and get on with life

:D ....feel the same........I've always believed there's more healing come about from getting back up on your feet and working yourself hard,,,,,letting time heal,,,,,,than sitting about feeling sorry for yourself,,,,....a little bit of grief is understandable and support from others, but it definetly gets out of control,,,,drags on with all that sympathy and hugs. that starts to look just a little embarrising.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much support you have, the same amount of personal effort is needed to overcome the grief.

IMO:D

[MurrayD99]

You know, if Clinton had put this thread on the wire ten years ago, nobody would have believed it. Where are we headed?

[HappyHammer]

Clinton,

Can't say I envy you having to listen to that drivel all day. What is it about the common denominator that you think is causing this lack of get up and get on with it?

HH.

[Clinton1]

Some cases are really valid, and often I get lumped with things that I would prefer not to know about. Things like people seeking you out to talk about the fact that their brother committed suicide a few days ago. Or the bloke that saved the lives of 3 people, but was affected by the fact that he couldn't get to the kids that ended up dying.
Sometimes its a case of trying to get the people to seek better help.
Other times its just a load of rubbish.

I'd say 95% of the people are fine, its the 5% that make all the noise that need the reality check though.

The thing that gets me is that this sort of behaviour seems to be considered reasonable by a large section of society.

As for the bloke Iain spoke about, he wouldn't have got put on the mat if someone said "Pull your head in, idiot, I didn't come to work to hear your crap." Oh, no, instead it is complain to boss and investigate by committee.

In 5 years of doing this I've had 6 harrassment or unprofessional behaviour complaints put in about me, and 4 complaints about the way I spoke to them in the counselling sessions. All were investigated (most at my insistance) and I have never been found at fault. Each time the major contributing factor to the complaint was that they thought I wasn't "taking their side". By not taking their side I was therefor 'victimising' them.

In each case the complainant was uni educated, and recently as well.

I'm thinking that a recent uni education must have something to do with it... maybe there is a lot of counselling and support offered and it cripples people.
Other than that, maybe its because people live with mummy and daddy for so long now?

Jake has a good point, one I hadn't thought about, the one about needing the same personal effort to overcome grief no matter the level of support.

A lot of the time its not about grief, just trivial crud that happens at work or in life.

[Iain]

My background is in psychology, albeit not clinical, but my own observations are that the given number of problems in a specific area are directly proportional to the 'services' available.

[Clinton1]

Almost forgot -
Theres the empowerment thing as well.

To me it means that you are empowed by seeking out opportunities to be a victim.
I mean I don't complain cause I'm never a victim, I might have a problem, but I sort it out.

[HappyHammer]

I think you're right Clinton, they live at home and then go to Uni the whole time being wrapped in cotton wool and then the real world hits and they can't handle it.

There's also a strong left influence in Uni's which seems to support the "I'm owed something for nothing" attitude. Ever notice how many protestors are Uni students with big ideas on how the world should be run because they have no grip on reality. I suspect many of these students go on to be materialistic money grabbers making the most money they can on the back of a non practical degree.

HH.

[Iain]

There's also a strong left influence in Uni's.
Don't agree with that generalisation, in Melbourne we have LaTrobe Uni (left wing), Melbourne Uni (right wing, my old school) and Monash Uni (who don't care what you are as long as you don't do it here).
LaTrobe are the one who offered the Australian flags for burning, which to me did not offend, as I would not have expected it from any other source, it is typical of their behaviour.

[HappyHammer]

Iain,

Are there equal numbers of left and right uni's or would it be fair to say that the left make a concious effort to recruit and influence at the majority of uni's?

HH.

[Iain]

Iain,

Are there equal numbers of left and right uni's or would it be fair to say that the left make a concious effort to recruit and influence at the majority of uni's?

HH.
No idea, I'm not an LVA;)

[HappyHammer]

A what?

[echnidna]

It might be interesting to see if the uni whingers are from a particular study area or are generally even across the board.
eg are the whiners accountants, lawyers or engineers
or are they social workers etc

[RufflyRustic]

Then there are those (eg myself) who attend uni and couldn't give a stuff either way. I am responsible for my choices and I choose to survive, choose to take responsibility for my actions and choose for myself - yes there are times when the choice is taken away, but, I'm the one choosing what I do about it.

Bugger playing/living like a victim!!!!

There may be a common element that people who go to university end up using the lines Clinton said in Post 1, but not everyone is like that, and HappyHammer, not all uni students have that attitude, yes some do, but not all.

Just my humble opinion based on my experience.
cheers
Wendy
___
PS very interesting discussion this

[Termite]

I was educated in the best university of all. "Life".
Now I've had my share of the ups and downs of life, some pretty tragic, others in hindsight not so bad, and some of the ups were very bloody good. Most of us on the forum would have been there done that got the T shirt to prove it sort of thing.
Now I know you can sort the wheat from the chaff Clinton, so with the benefit of a top education I would suggest you tell the "Chaff" the following:-

1. Grow up.
2. Sh$t happens.
3. If you don't like it then p$ss off.
4. It's your fault, wear it.
5. Get a better attitude.
etc.etc.

Ah yes, there was a time when you could say it.:mad:

[ozwinner]

"You only pick on me because I'm gay".
.

Your friend hey??? :rolleyes: :D

Al :p

[doug the slug]

Im not so sure it starts at university. the social workers seem to have started spreading it through all levels of schooling. seems to me that it is a self-generating industry. i think it was Iain who said it a few posts back about the work available for the social workers expanding in direct proportion with the number and availability of social workers. if we had no social workers everyone would have to deal with their own problems. but while some uni-educated social worker being paid by the government is quite happy to sit there and let them pour out their tiny hearts, people will play the system to their advantage where they can.

once, when i was in the army, i was present when a soldier on a charge for a fairly minor infringement claimed reduced responsibility because his mother drank alcohol when he was a foetushttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Iain]

It might be interesting to see if the uni whingers are from a particular study area or are generally even across the board.
eg are the whiners accountants, lawyers or engineers
or are they social workers etc
Usually from some non descript BA, often relating to (I hate this) social issues, Youth Issues, Womens Issues, they actually have BA's for these vague fields of science, and several others.
Albeit mine was Psychology but given I had a mind of my own, had already qualified in other areas, trade related, worked with villains, etc etc, I was not prone to be corrupted by these radical influences, much to the disgust of those I had to evaluate for Court proceedings.
LVA, a term we used for Labour Voting Aerosols, eg: Bleeding Hearts.

[Clinton1]

Ah yes, there was a time when you could say it.

I've been involved for long enough to be able to say anything I like, just got to use the correct language and guide the person into giving you the opportunity!


If I knew where it was coming from I'd be able to start making in-roads to changing that culture.
Thats why I'm bringing this up. I am sure there is no easy answer, but if you don't ask the question you'll never get the answer.

The foetal one, thats actually quite good!

It seems most degrees now have a wank word course element, i.e. business administration has four 1st year subjects that are nothing to do with business administration.

[Iain]

The foetal one, thats actually quite good!
.
I liked it too, but did it work??????

[dazzler]

This garbage has even extended into policing.

Its now mandatory to undertake counselling after attending a "critical incident" - death, accident, violent domestic etc.

So instead of just moving on you gotta relive it over and over and if you are a callous bugger and use black humour to get over it you are frowned on.

I remember p155ing myself when we were marking out a crash site with a theodolite;

Bumper, manifold, seatbelt, brain goo, hubcap......... had double counselling after owning up to that one:(


Oh and the other one was a recent recruit working the club district with us two older guys. Put up with cr*p from two young blokes picking fights with others most of the night. Made one too many pig grunts so decided they were coming in for a sleepover. They Decided to play up so away we go only to find it was just two of us playing.:D

The newbie just watched and did nothing. :confused: Finally took em down after calling for assistance and being helped by another crew.:D

Asked the newbie just "What the expletive is going on" to be told he didnt think it reasonable and chose to take no part. Then complained of course:mad: .

[Bodgy]

Clint

My advice is just to tell them all to fc**k off and get a life. That's been my practice.

By listening to this pathetic drivel you just give it credence and thus encourage the perpetrator.

[bsrlee]

Reader's Digest had a 'feature' article on this about 10 years ago - Professional Victims they called it.

At least some of the real problems that occurr with Police, Fire & Ambulance (and the rest of you guys) is the modern management idea of 'nose to the grindstone, every minute, every day'. Way back - say early 1970's when I joined up, there was time in the daily routine for the crew to sit around & discuss what they had done or were doing, swap stories & whinge about the 'boss'. You quickly learnt that S.H.1.T. happened, had happened & would happen, there was nothing personal about it & little you could do about it.

Now every one is not supposed to know squat about what anyone else is doing, no discussion, no sharing of information, just stick in your own box & don't look outside. So when the cracks start to appear, the 'boss' is now faced with getting someone in to sit around for hours with each employee, individually, and perform the same task that half an hour's 'stitch-and-bitch' would have achieved at minimal cost in time & $$$.

And the people who are really having problems rarely complain or get/seek help until it is too late to make any difference, while the loud do-nothings soak up all the available resources.

Oh, Bah Humbug!:D

[doug the slug]

The foetal one, thats actually quite good!.
no it didnt work!! I was prosecuting officer and i pointed out that the soldier was enlisted without any qualifications on his enlistment medical board and was still at his latest medical assessment without restrictions desp-ite what may or may not have happened before he was born and for which he presented no documentation
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif


It seems most degrees now have a wank word course element, i.e. business administration has four 1st year subjects that are nothing to do with business administration.

A friend is in the final throes of a multi-media degree. in the final year they have to pick one subject from another faculty for some reason. she chose a unit whereby she could write on the affects on society of the vietnam war. whats that got to dowith multimedia anyway?

Anyway she faileds the subject because she included serving soldiers and returned soldiers in her definition of society. the professor said they werent society, society was the people who remained in australia and didnt serve at all. that happened in 2005. that professor was living in the 1960's. No wonder the vietnam veterans are still struggling for recognition.

[BrisBen]

I particularly like the attitude of some of the younger blokes we get on site.

Before taking them on we make sure they get the "You understand you are starting at the bottom to work your way up and to learn all you can on the way. Remember, if you show effort and initiative, you'll progress faster"

Two weeks into work, a job starts to come to a close and they have to get on the broom and chip in and clean up, when they have spent the previous time watching and handing things to tradesmen.

Someone on site requests them to smarten up their act - possibly in colloquial terms they may not have previously encountered directed at themselves, but they have certainly directed at others in a social environment.

All of a sudden: I can't work anymore the stress is too much; I don't appreciate the way I am treated; and my favourite: I shouldn't have to do something I don't want to

Oh and "Can't we get someone else to do it..."

[Driver]

There's a very good book about an infantryman's experiences fighting in Burma during WWII. It's called "Quartered Safe Out Here" The author is George MacDonald Fraser. He is, amongst other things, the author of the Flashman stories.

In "Quartered Safe Out Here" he recounts his real-life experiences as a young kid, drafted into the army and sent across to the other side of the world to put himself in mortal danger, fighting to the death against a fierce and extremely dangerous enemy. He writes the story the way he lived the experience - as an adventure.

Towards the end of the book, he gives his opinions on the subject of this thread. It won't be any great surprise to you to learn that he (like most of the people who experienced Workd War II - my parents, for example) is dismissive of counselling and disparaging of the modern trend to seek "professional" help to overcome problems.

MacDonald Fraser, like my dad and all his brothers and brothers-in-law, had a different experience on demobilisation from what Vietnam vets faced on their return. The WWII warriors were met with - generally speaking - the appropriate welcome for heroes of a just war. The great majority of their countrymen and women were glad to see them back, glad it was all over, delighted they were all still alive and looking forward to the future.

Vietnam vets had faced all the bloody awful horror of war (adventure or not) and came back generally to be scorned, put down or ignored and to face, subsequently, the kind of attitude presented by the dickheaded professor in Doug's post.

So there was a significant difference in the post-war experiences of George MacDonald Fraser and my dear old dad compared to that of some of the blokes of my generation who went to Vietnam. Nevertheless, MacDonald Fraser's views on counselling and the blame culture are worth reading if you get your hands on his book.

Col

[DanP]

This garbage has even extended into policing.

Extended into? I think we invented it.:rolleyes:


Its now mandatory to undertake counselling after attending a "critical incident" - death, accident, violent domestic etc.

That's what they tell you. Truth is, no one can be forced to go to counselling (not in Vic anyway).


if you are a callous bugger and use black humour to get over it you are frowned on.

Black humour has long been the defence mechanism in many different careers to stop people from being affected by seeing things that other may never have to see. Those who don't have to deal with these sh it jobs can not possibly understand why you are making jokes about a gross situation.


Oh and the other one was a recent recruit working the club district with us two older guys. Put up with cr*p from two young blokes picking fights with others most of the night. Made one too many pig grunts so decided they were coming in for a sleepover. They Decided to play up so away we go only to find it was just two of us playing.:D

The newbie just watched and did nothing. :confused: Finally took em down after calling for assistance and being helped by another crew.:D

That's the sh it they feed them in the various academy's these days. I had a similar one where the crook threw a punch first and then we just went at it, toe to toe. No time to get gear out, just stand and fight. The trainee actually ran away. Luckily the Frankston van was only a minute off.


Asked the newbie just "What the expletive is going on"

Same. He said he was trained to get distance when the poo hit the fan so that he could consider his options. I don't think they meant when your offsider is going hammer and tongs with some POS on a train station platform.:mad:


My take on the 'run to a counsellor' mentality is simply another way of getting someone else to deal with your problem. No one wants to take responsibility for their own stuff ups and just fix it.

Dan

[scooter]

Your friend hey??? :rolleyes: :D

Al :p

:p

[journeyman Mick]

Clinton,
I don't think I'd last long in your job. (They'd sack me for sure!:D ) My wife has had a really rough trot, healthwise for many years now with lots of operations, radiotherapy and chemo. I give her all the love and support I can, and then some, but when she starts feeling sorry for herself I am merciless. She hates it at the time but thanks me for it afterwards because self pity is a sure way to despair and depression. My advice to all those self indulgent, moaning whingers who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives? "Life's tough, deal with it."

Mick

[Termite]

Well, over the years reading and hearing all the excuses being talked about here I have decided that my life has gone down the wrong path. Instead of being a home owning, married, normal fringe lunatic, based on my lifes experiences I should be:-

A serial killing axe weilding bank robbing paedophile rapist dole bludging wife bashing homosexual neurotic bastard. Only the last word is correct. The previous also assumes that I survived multiple suicide attempts.

Where have I gone wrong. :D

[TassieKiwi]

Is the Uni denominator because these days to attand one must a) have a wealthy/priveliged background, b) Be totally selfless and competitive during the course, me me me, c) be brainwashed during it to think that because you can retain knowledge long enough to pass a few exams, and thus pull a higher salary, you're better/superior to the 'no letters' scum that you have to work with.

Clinton, play these people The Eagles 'Get over it" ("I'd like to find you as a child and kick it's little ####") to help them with thier perspective.

[CameronPotter]

Jeez fellas.

There seems to be a lot of uni-bashers here isn't there? It seems everytime I look at a non-woodwork thread someone is blaming everything on uni. students... Sometimes it may be fair, sometimes not, but I would suggest these people have a think about it before they say it, otherwise they are being as bad as the whingers that everyone here is complaining about.

Anyway, as for if there is a difference between the courses, I can only really speak for engineering at Uni. of Tas. But we have a drop out of about 50% in the first 6 months. If you get through the course it is because you are a tough bastard.
Sure, you have some people who feel threatened, some people who feel like the world has been unfair, but in being here for over seven years now (undergrad and almost finished my PhD) I have only heard about one official complaint and it was resolved pretty easily. Thus, I reckon that it is unlikely that it is engineers who are doing the complaining...

Cam

[Iain]

When I did my BA any 'lefty' influences always seemed to stem from the Sociology Dept, when I got to Phd I was too bloody busy to notice and really didn't give a rats, it was my life, my subject and I had to work as well, sod 'em all.

[Daddles]

That's coz the engineers are the cause, not the problem Cam :D

I agree though, the uni bashing that goes on on this forum is thoughtless. Perhaps I should start talking about plumbers with gold plated tools etc. I've dealt with the 'me me' type from all backgrounds, and when I was in the public service, the ones rushing to counsellors and blaming others tended to be non-uni types ... perhaps because I was in an engineering department and most of the uni types were engineers or surveyors :confused: :rolleyes:

Personally, I think the problem is through the whole of our society. Yes, it is the result of changing attitudes and to a large extent, it's been a good move. Like everything though, take it too far and it falls down. Anyone who thinks the 'climb into your shell and tough it out' route is the best way to handle life's traumas are fooling themselves - it's as destructive as racing off to your counsellor for reasurance. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Richard

[Clinton1]

I brought up the uni comment as it has been the only common denominator I have identified so far.
Not trying to bag uni's, its just that its been identified. Others have identifed that it's being found in others as well.

I'm hoping others can throw some more thoughts into the mix as to where this culture is coming from.

Some good thoughts so far.

Iain's comment re "the given number of problems in a specific area are directly proportional to the 'services' available" <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->is interesting - trying to get to the bottom of that might be like arguing about what came first, the chicken or egg though. Not sure if I'd get an answer, only opinions.

I am actually all for counselling, where appropriate, and agree that talking about the stuff that happens in life and work with workmates and family/mates is a good part of life.
The best form of counselling is simply blowing off steam with mates, IMO.

I also find that concepts such as self-reliance, teamwork, espritit-de-corps, sacrifice, mental/physical toughness and mateship are not well developed in young people. Its there, but often needing a lot of work.

Maybe too much sitting around studying and "being involved with people through electronic means" is part of it.
A lot of the whingers have social lives, but not too many meaningful relationships. Thats one of the reasons that they focus so much on their work relationships... and the things that happen at work, that I wouldn't think twice about, cut them to the bone.

Maybe I could include that conforming to peer pressure is crippling as well. Its not often that I come across 'tough nuts' that don't give a stuff as to what others think about them. The bloody minded individuals are getting rarer. Now its often a case of "I'm an individual cause I choose to conform to this groups dress/behavioural/language/piercing code".

I have not found a country-raised person that blames others either.

Not having a go at young people now either, as I've said before 95% are great to good... its the 5% that give me the irrits.

[Waldo]

G'day Clinton1,

I'll add that I'm one of those that don't give a stuff what others think of me, I'm an honest bloke, give loyalty, respect etc., but if someone doesn't like me, then really I don't care - because they're probably not the sort of person I like anyway or more to the point, tolerate.

But all this doesn't make me a bloody minded individual, maybe it's that I don't tolerate fools or similar. I don't go along with thinking that such and such a thing is popular so I have to like it too.

:)

[TassieKiwi]

Jeez fellas.

Thus, I reckon that it is unlikely that it is engineers who are doing the complaining...

Cam

I wasn't counting the engineers. We all know we're different:rolleyes: :D and superior, and don't need to be told.:p

Maybe there are tossers everywhere, and some of them went to uni?

[CameronPotter]

Hey Clinton,

Sorry if my post seemed liked it was aimed at you. I actually read all your posts and thought that it was fine, reasonable and simply an observation. However, there were some other posts that were simply saying - "YEAH".

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the whingers did come from uni. but that doesn't mean that it is exclusively that way, nor does it mean that you can be cruel/callous about it (and again, you weren't the problem).

As for your last post - I reckon we are now getting closer to the problem (other than the engineers being the problem! :p )


The best form of counselling is simply blowing off steam with mates, IMO.
Too right. That, or your girlfriend or family or whatever... I feel really sorry for people who need to go outside this group for support. It either means there is something wrong with the group of people who are closest to them, that group doesn't exist or there is some MASSIVE problem (like the ones you mentioned earlier). However, some people choose to go outside the group as the first option, which is both silly and sad to me.

As for your comment on teamwork, I reckon that the reason that it is often weak is that it is "taught" not learned. Young people do teamwork exercises from very young these days, but they are all artificial...:(


A lot of the whingers have social lives, but not too many meaningful relationships. Thats one of the reasons that they focus so much on their work relationships... and the things that happen at work, that I wouldn't think twice about, cut them to the bone.

I think that this is probably EXACTLY the problem. At uni, you develop ties with the people you are around and they can become your dominating social network. Thus, when they go to work, they may carry this same thing forward. Thus, when someone you feel is one of your closest friends obviously doesn't think the same about you, well that could be pretty hurtful. Maybe you can blame homework for that. You go home from uni and have to do more work rather than relax with your mates. That being said - it is sensible to MAKE time for your mates. Also, I know some slackers at uni. don't work all that hard - but don't get me started on that. :rolleyes: However, I suppose the problem still comes down to the fact that some people aren't willing to take responsibility - which is pretty weak.

Finally, the comment about being an individual and choosing to behave like XXX is something that I have seen altogether too much. Some of my friends are like this e.g. I listen to independent music because I don't like the stuff turned out by the established companies, thus I rebel, like all of these people...:rolleyes:

A bit silly, but I guess that is what growing up and finding out about yourself is all about. I am sure that every generation has the same comments aimed at them as they experiment (usually as a group). Still, I reckon it is pretty to to conform to a unconfromist attitude.

Cheers

Cam

ps I can sure prattle on...

[CameronPotter]

I wasn't counting the engineers. We all know we're different:rolleyes: :D and superior, and don't need to be told.:p

Maybe there are tossers everywhere, and some of them went to uni?

Oh, and us Tasmanian engineers are obviously better again aren't we?

:p

[JDarvall]

Does anybody else feel dizzy reading this stuff ?......I do.....must be mum's fault !! :mad...The old witch ! :mad: ............. Apparently, she drank a couple of bottles of wine a night during my metamorphosis.......(sniff)(sniff)(sniff).....ooooo, I JUST love turps. http://www.ubeaut.biz/zonked.gif

Thank god for Black Humour. Without it I'd definetly need to talk to head doctor. Down hill from then on for shore. I'd have to give up turps......

[Clinton1]

Jake, if it makes you dizzy then imagine how much it makes me go crazy.

I can't tell them that they complete tossers than need to make the decision to either grow up or make sure that they don't contribute to the human gene pool.

I have to guide them into thinking like an adult.

Thats why I'm trying to work out where it comes from, so I can attack the whole concept and sort it out from the start. I can say "don't do this", but if I can point to the whole concept/issue and talk about it in a way that makes it seem pointless and irrelevant then I'll have a better chance of getting it sorted.

[CameronPotter]

How about saying:

"I can understand where you are coming from, but to have you talk about such things in the work place makes me feel that my job as counsellor is overvalued which places undue pressure on me. Thus, I take offense at the implication that I am able to solve your problems and I feel that by bringing them to me, you are devaluing my self-appreciation. Not only that, by taking the complaint to an official level, I feel that you are devaluing the person/idea of whom/which you are feeling aggrieved about. I would feel much more comfortable if we didn't have to talk about these kind of problems and instead you discussed them either with the person you have a problem with, your friends and family or instead showed some mental fortitude rather than burdening me with your griefs that I should not have to address.'


Hopefully somewhere in there they should be rolling their eyes at you - at which stage you simply say, "See how silly it sounds!" :p

Cam

Alternatively: Have a piece of offcut wood in your office with a hammer and a box of nails. Tell them that woodworking seems to keep people sane and let them hammer in 10 nails. By the time they have done that they should feel better...

[Waldo]

G'day,

And then after hammering in the nails, ask if they feel any better for it? If not, smack them around the head with the bit of wood, then ask the same question again. :D

[CameronPotter]

Waldo, the trick is the get the thickness of the bit of wood right. For serial offenders do you make the bit of wood a little thinner so that the nails go all the way through!?! :eek: :eek: ;)

I guess that would stop the minor complaints about the workplace...

Cam

[Daddles]

Alternatively: Have a piece of offcut wood in your office with a hammer and a box of nails. Tell them that woodworking seems to keep people sane and let them hammer in 10 nails. By the time they have done that they should feel better...

What you do is have a length of 4x2 (inches, not them little things) and four or five six inch nails. Ask them to drive the nails right through the board, near one end. When they ask you why they are doing this, you tell them they are making you a club which you will use to beat some sense into them :D

Richard

[Daddles]

Flamin' heck, Cam and Waldo got in as I was typing my reply. Great minds go insane alike eh?

Richard

[Daddles]

Actually, the concept of suggesting woodwork as an outlet is a good one. Of course, the company should help, so ask them to provide a workshop, and a table saw, and a thicknesser, and some nice hand planes, and a lathe, and a ... :D

Richard

[Waldo]

Waldo, the trick is the get the thickness of the bit of wood right. For serial offenders do you make the bit of wood a little thinner so that the nails go all the way through!?! :eek: :eek: ;)

I guess that would stop the minor complaints about the workplace...

Cam

G'day,

Well that was what I was alluding to. But I thought that Clinton1 might nominate me for some therapy if I suggested such a course of action. ;)

[HappyHammer]

Alternatively: Have a piece of offcut wood in your office with a hammer and a box of nails. Tell them that woodworking seems to keep people sane .....

And you're basing that on the individuals on this BB :rolleyes: :D :D :D :D :D :D

HH.

[Studley 2436]

I am thinking about the old cricket school that Rod Marsh used to run here in Adelaide. Marsh had a reputation as a tough master, but he always said he didn't know where that came from as he hadn't had anything to go hard on the students over except in that first year when they got a bit wild and he had to set them straight. I have a feeling that the word was passed to each new set of incomers, play up and you'll pay so they didn't.

Surely all this councelling explosion is one because the service is there and also because the individual groups don't have that communication going within them so individuals go to the councellors as where else can they go.

I am pretty sure it is a poor management thing not to allow the team or in bigger companies teams to get the chance to have a yarn, laugh or whatever together so they can keep things sorted. Weak management likes weak teams as this management can appear to be superior. So allowing people to go to a councellor rather than the others in the group only means there will be back stabbing etc going on making the group weaker. While an outside opinion can be valuable it is crucial that individuals take possesion of their problems and solving them.

Stephen

[ozwinner]

Next time you have a session Clint, just hand these out.

http://www.bananaboys.com/cheap.jpg

Al :D

[TassieKiwi]

Oh, and us Tasmanian engineers are obviously better again aren't we?

:p

Erm...Tassie ones better than most, Kiwi ones even betterer:p :p :p

[Termite]

Oh, and us Tasmanian engineers are obviously better again aren't we?:p
Of couse you are, as they say "Two heads are better than one". :D :D

[CameronPotter]

Of couse you are, as they say "Two heads are better than one". :D :D

Funny thing is that I wasn't even born in Tassie, but I still have the scar!:eek:

[journeyman Mick]

Next time you have a session Clint, just hand these out.

http://www.bananaboys.com/cheap.jpg

Al :D



Al,
:D :D :D

Mick

[ozwinner]

Sorry..

All I can think is......
You are here on planet earth, deal with it.
You are given a once in a life time opertunity to do it right.
F(!)ck up, and you pay the price.
I am not here to help you.
Get over yourself.
Your place will be filled by someone else, and quickly.
Dont you watch the wildlife channels, thats how life is.

Anyone want counceling get in touch, I will put you back in touch with reality faster than you can blink.

Al :mad:

[echnidna]

What about telling the whingers just how incredibly lucky they are

They live in a democracy
and can have a whinge without the secret police bumping them off

They live in a prosperous country
they don't have to scavenge at the rubbish tip for their food

Their government provides many types of welfare to needy people.
they don't have to crawl in the bush to find a place to die.

[boban]

I dont know about Universities being the cause, but like everywhere else it always seemed to be the weirdos that made the most noise, at least at Sydney Uni. My perception perhaps.

I always thought family and friends were there for you as a sounding board. We all go through bad patches and most of us dont need a "type 2 classic such and such diagnosis" from a shrink of some type to help us cope.

Life has ups and downs and you've got to deal with both.

[Daddles]

I always thought family and friends were there for you as a sounding board. We all go through bad patches and most of us dont need a "type 2 classic such and such diagnosis" from a shrink of some type to help us cope.

But in recognising this, please don't forget that many of us WILL suffer something that needs more than a chat with Dad or a yarn with the big brother. Suicide still kills more men than alcohol and road crashes - it's behind heart attacks, but that's it. How depressed do you have to be to commit suicide? Pretty bloody bad, and it's the second killer of men in this country.

That doesn't mean that the slackers and the panic merchants don't need some sorting out, but the 'big, tough, Aussie bloke' image is a killer.

Richard
BT luckily didn't DT

[JDarvall]

Next time you have a session Clint, just hand these out.

http://www.bananaboys.com/cheap.jpg

Al :D

:D :D :D You cheeky bugger ! ......:eek: Oh, I mean, thats just HORRIBLE, 'arold ....how insensitive ! :p

[JDarvall]

What about telling the whingers just how incredibly lucky they are

They live in a democracy
and can have a whinge without the secret police bumping them off

They live in a prosperous country
they don't have to scavenge at the rubbish tip for their food

Their government provides many types of welfare to needy people.
they don't have to crawl in the bush to find a place to die.

Can never question that !!!....agree entirely. Problem is, nobody understands these things until they actually go through these hardships.

I told my 8 year old daughter a similar thing the other day........uno, ' eat your food...people on the other side of the world are starving' uno same old guilt trip............and she said ' WELL, send it them ! '....she got up and stormed off to her room........:D . (just quietly, I quite liked it,...gutsy little girl)

[dazzler]

MacDonald Fraser, like my dad and all his brothers and brothers-in-law, had a different experience on demobilisation from what Vietnam vets faced on their return. The WWII warriors were met with - generally speaking - the appropriate welcome for heroes of a just war. The great majority of their countrymen and women were glad to see them back, glad it was all over, delighted they were all still alive and looking forward to the future.

Vietnam vets had faced all the bloody awful horror of war (adventure or not) and came back generally to be scorned, put down or ignored and to face, subsequently, the kind of attitude presented by the dickheaded professor in Doug's post.

So there was a significant difference in the post-war experiences of George MacDonald Fraser and my dear old dad compared to that of some of the blokes of my generation who went to Vietnam. Nevertheless, MacDonald Fraser's views on counselling and the blame culture are worth reading if you get your hands on his book.

Col

Hi Driver,

Its interesting the vietnam vets issue that was raised. My father, who is an ex HMAS Voyager sailor, recently found out that he and other navy members are eligable to be deemed vietnam veterans due to the length of time in mission when doing escorts.

Anyway, he has now taken on the Vietnam vets persona along with his PTSD from the Voyager incident.

Had an interesting exchange the other day;

Dad: "they spat on us you know, when we came back"
Me: "Who spat on you"
Dad: "The public"
Me: "What on you"
Dad: "no on vets"
Me: "who got spat on"
Dad: " I dont know, but they spat on us ya know"
Me: "Did anyone you know get spat on"
Dad: "No, but they did"
Me: " So what did you do? Smack in the face"
Dad: "No, but they spat on us you know"

i always struggle with the image of any soldier coming back from a tour and taking it on the chin when some POS spat at them. Most would have knocked the POS out cold.

A few days later I was chating with a professor of psychiatry, who treats my partner who has a brain injury, and asked him about it. It was interesting what he had to say.

His view on a lot of the recently diagnosed Vets with PTSD are actually contracting the illness through counselling. His view was that as a lot of vets are now at retiring age, like many people retiring, become depressed due to the change in life/value that occurs at this time. They then seek counselling, the fact they were in vietnam comes out and they are made to relive the experience and bingo they are diagnosed with PTSD due to being vets.

He reckons for a lot counselling is the worst thing they can do, at least as far as looking for answers in the past is concerned.

Still confused.:confused:


dazzler

P.S If you are a vet and this upsets you I apologise completely, just interesting is all.:)

[echnidna]

I agree with the Professor of Physcho.
If you endure some real hard ####.
forget about it before it stuffs you right up
Get on with living.

[Daddles]

I agree with the Professor of Physcho.
If you endure some real hard ####.
forget about it before it stuffs you right up
Get on with living.

Sadly, that doesn't always work mate. It's a nice theory but a sh it ideal. No, I'm not an apologist for therapy, just someone who's stood on a wharf looking down ...

Richard

[bsrlee]

For Dan P - you obviously needed a better class of probationary.

I am reminded of an acquaintance -'Sue' - who seemed to have a real problem with another employee - 'Sister'. One night shift we were discussing various things and it came out that 'Sister' had been 'Sue's training officer/partner when one night they were called to a fight at a local pub.

Things quickly got a bit sticky, with a large hostile crowd gathering, and 'Sue' turned around for some advice from her 'senior' constable, only to find that 'Sister', with the keys, had locked her self in the paddy-waggon cab with the windows up & wasn't coming out. Luckily 'Sue' had lots of grit & managed to keep talking until some more crews arrived, but strangely didn't think much of her training officer.

[boban]

Richard, I see what you're saying and must say I didn't look at it from that perspective, ie an illness.

[Termite]

Richard, I see what you're saying and must say I didn't look at it from that perspective, ie an illness.
A very serious illness at that. Recent figures show that on average 5 men commit suicide through depression every day. I know where Richard is coming from, I'm a survivor too.

[Clinton1]

Richard and Termite,
I'm not unhappy that this issue has been brought up.

While dealing with the 5% does cause me a bit of stress and I don't like it when I am dealing with what see as very trivial matters:
the flip side to counselling is that you do meet people who have a set of personal circumstances that would cause just about everyone to have problems.

Its these people that the support systems are really there for.

I have to refer suicidal people on to better support agencies, and then maintain a "mate" role with them as additional support.
There is always the fear of there being "the one that slipped through", the "one that I didn't see the signs in".

[DanP]

Mate, there are plenty who 'slip through' the better support agencies too.

Dan

[CameronPotter]

Yeah, I think that most people (make that I HOPE that most people) here were only talking about the trivial cases. Where something serious is wrong, well sometimes you do need some external help and quite possibly help from someone trained for this task. I can't imagine ever being depressed enough to consider suicide - and I hope that I never go through enough bad stuff that I am able to imagine it... :(

I hope that you guys haven't taken the other comments the wrong way.:o