Hardwood Floor Questions

[happydog]

Hi Everyone,

I am just about to embark on laying about 80m2 of 85mmx19mm karri feature grade hardwood flooring in my house. I have had a quote of $7000 fully installed!!!!!!! but have since decided to do it myself for about $3500.

I have never installed a floor before but have built decks and other things so I am pretty handy. I have been reading heaps on this forum and the information has been really helpful, however I do have a few questions:

1. I am really concerned about acclimatisation. I plan on acclimatising the timber for at least 2-3 weeks before laying but I have read some horror stories about timber warping and expanding etc. Should this be sufficient?

2. I am not removing skirts etc but will be using some quad or similar after the floor is laid. In light of the above question, how much space should I leave between the timber floor and the walls to allow for expansion if any?

3. I am planning on secret nailing and glueing. Will the secret nail gun be enough to bring the boards in tight enough or should I also use a clamp?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Phil Mac]

Having spent 7 years in flooring Supply lay sand and finish there are a few things that need to be considered

Let me know the situation and I will give you some suggestions

What is the sub floor you are fixing it to??
length and with of area
Do you know the current moisture content of the timber??

dont let the timber salesman fool you that kiln dried flooring is ready to go!!!
(one thing people dont realise is Kiln dried only means the moisture level in the timber has been lowered from its origional total moisture content [30-40% or something like that] down to below 15% by placing it into a kiln and using fan forced ventelation to remove the moisture in a few weeks as opposed to a few months if it were air dried in a shed)


The timber needs to be at the ambient moisture of the area you going to put the floor



Phil

[happydog]

Phil,

Thanks for your post.

Subfloor is chipboard - will need to be sanded as there are some raised sections. Also will help if I am glueing the boards as well as nailing.

The largest room to be covered would be 4m x 4m. There is a passage way that is roughly 6m long and that is about it. Not alot of large spaces, but about 80m2 in total.

Don't know the moisture content of the timber as yet as I havent actually bought it yet. Is there a way I can measure it myself?

Thanks again.

[jimc]

Most flooring places can measure the moisture content for you on the spot. It is an idea to take a piece of timber from the area you will lay it and get this measured as well. If there is large difference, let the new boards acclimatise for a long time layed out loosely to allow air flow.

the last floor I layed, I had the boards sitting on top of the floor joists for 5 weeks before fixing them. Got a bit hairy when walking on loose boards though!

Another piece of advice fopr what its worth is to remove the skirting boards bofore you lay the new flooring. In my opinion, the quad makes the job look second rate, especially when you can remove skirtings easily and reuse them.

[glock40sw]

G'day.
If the dwelling is A/C, lay direct from the pack.
If not A/C cut in floor and lay upside down for 1 to 2 weeks. Roll over and allow another 1 week. then glue and secret nail.
Use Bostik Ultraset glue in the sausage. Do a 4" wiggle along the underside of each board being carefull not to get glue on the T&G.
Use porter powernailer with their T nail or use Bostik nailer with staples.
Run boards along the hall. Not across it cause it looks like crap.
remove skirting boards. Quad makes in look like a cheap job.
12mm expansion at each wall. 1.5mm expansion every 12 boards. Use whipper snipper cord to get the right expansion gap.
The nailer will have enough force to close the boards up. you do not have to cramp.

If the Y/T is on B&J, you might want to think about nailing thru the Y/T and picking up the joists under.

As for M.C%. you cannot measure it your self.
Even bloody installers cannot work moisture meters correctly.
A moisture meter in the wrong hands is a dangerous item.

Buy from a reputable seller, only buy product produced by a well known manufacturer. There are a lot of small dog & pony shows drying and machining T&G and do not have a clue what they are doing.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[ThePope]

1.5mm expansion every 12 boards.

Not that I have much to do with flooring these days (thank christ)..

You'd advise 1.5mm in general or just in certain cases ?
Not sure I've heard that advice before but it seems a wise precaution.

[TassieKiwi]

Don't 1/4 round. Pull the skirting. In case you've not done it:

Ease the skirting off the wall with a flat wrecker bar about 50mm wide - try to lever off the studs, or use a piece of thin steel or ply as a load spreader, or you'll go through the drywall. Mark pieces clearly to ID position
Pull the nails through the back of the skirting. This will leave the face of the skirting untouched.
If painted, use a big scraper to get the loose paint off, and a quick rub with 100 paper will see it ready for spot priming & u/coat. If varnished, just stick it back on & stop holes.

[happydog]

thanks to everyone for your advice. it has been extremely helpful. I am feeling a bit more confident at the prospoect of doing the job myself.

I must say that even though everyone seems to unanimously be advocating removal of the skirts, I am not quite sure that I will. I agree that it would look better, but the walls and skirts have all been freshly painted throughout the house and I really dont want to touch them. The skirts are a gloss white and I was planning on colour matching the moulded quad to match the skirts. I have seen other jobs done like this and it looks quite good.

thanks again to everyone. I will send through photos of the job once it is complete.

[E. maculata]

Run boards along the hall. Not across it cause it looks like crap.


O contrare' my learned comrade, across can indeed look very pleasing, esp if done in a 6-1 ratio:p . you may recall several square metres of your very own flooring being laid this way, and if I may say so myself the results were stunning.

On the skirting board issue, I recently was faced with the same problem, so I scoured with a stanley knife at the wall/skirting junction then carefully pried using soft pine wedges & pry bars, alternatively I discovered Biscuit jointers are terrific skirting saws, right height out of the box for my cheapy was a bonus.

[glock40sw]

G'day Bruce.
OK...I'll give you that one.
But yours was only a small hall.
How are you settling in?

Making any progress with the staff issues?

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[cellist]

Hi Everyone,

I am just about to embark on laying about 80m2 of 85mmx19mm karri feature grade hardwood flooring in my house. I have had a quote of $7000 fully installed!!!!!!! but have since decided to do it myself for about $3500.

I have never installed a floor before but have built decks and other things so I am pretty handy. I have been reading heaps on this forum and the information has been really helpful, however I do have a few questions:

1. I am really concerned about acclimatisation. I plan on acclimatising the timber for at least 2-3 weeks before laying but I have read some horror stories about timber warping and expanding etc. Should this be sufficient?

2. I am not removing skirts etc but will be using some quad or similar after the floor is laid. In light of the above question, how much space should I leave between the timber floor and the walls to allow for expansion if any?

3. I am planning on secret nailing and glueing. Will the secret nail gun be enough to bring the boards in tight enough or should I also use a clamp?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Dear Dog,

I did about the same amount of area you are going to do (and I say that because you ARE going to do it!....it's not rocket science). All the posts above are on the money.

No mention of specific tools though. I wonder how thick your substrate is. You said chipboard, but do you know how thick it is? Rule of thumb here is that the nails (and in this case, it's actually going to be BRADS, not nails, should be 1/3 in the flooring and 2/3 in the subfloor.

I bought a Hitachi brad gun and wouldn't go any other tool. It handles brads (C-1's) from tiny (15mm) to 50mm and is the only brand, I believe, that can handle those long ones. I've found it a wonderful tool to have in the workshop after the flooring job was completed.

Polyurethane glue is the go, but let me tell you that safety gear is imperative. Gloves. No kidding. You don't want this stuff on your hands. I can give you all the tips in terms of laying the stuff (like starting your first board on with the tongue to the wall). It's not hard, but you will need an accurate drop-cut saw as well. Small offcuts and an old chisel provide the leverage for cinching up the boards as you nail.

Lines of nails about 300mm apart (and a line drawn on the subfloor so that they can be straight when you nail the planks down) and two nails at the end of each and every board.

Lots more to tell, especially when it comes to the sanding, but let me know if you want some more info.

You CAN do it!
Mike

[elphingirl]

Having put a secret nailed floor in - using a Portanailer tool worked easily (even for a fairly small woman). It cramped the boards in easily, and shot the nails to the right depth. I'm not sure that a nail gun would be as successful because you would have to hold the sometimes bendy boards into the right position while you nailed - but I haven't tried it..
Cheers
Justine

[boban]

G'day.

12mm expansion at each wall. 1.5mm expansion every 12 boards. Use whipper snipper cord to get the right expansion gap.


I've never seen that done before, that is a 1.5mm gap every metre or so.

I thought from what I read that the majority of the expansion is taken up in the boards.

Also whats the ultraset worth and where can you get it from.

[Gaza]

My two cents

Hallway go down it not across, i have done a few nice places where we changed the direction of the flooring from the hallway to each room. we used a cork and aluminum bar for expansion under the doors, it looked good.

We had another job 10inc recycled iron bark where the hallway had a 90deg corner in it, we did an exposed miter across the corner so that the floor changed directions and that look unreal.

The old bloke at my work used my moisture meter once and kept getting the same result every time turns out he was pushing the calibration button, pro moisture meters cost big bucks or you can always uses the oven drying method with good scales.

Boban, ultraset comes in both 15ltr drums and sausages private msg when you need it next and i can get some delivered we keep it in stock or equivalent brands.

an observation we did an test the other week by covering skia T55 in water for a few days and it became porous and flexible, where the ultraset did not, also i have noticed that when removing a board that was glued with T55 the glue was still flexible but failed a lot easier than ultraset does, the timber usually breaks with ulktraset.

Glocks trick with the 1.5mm gap is an old one that is often used with gyms and large areas, we have often done it to where the client agreed to it but we use 1.5mm plastic glazing packers they dont tend to fall down. it is less impacting than having a 12mm gap in the middle of a room.

When fixing using brads, i use nothing less than an ND series or a "T" nail (stands for top nail i think), if using over lay flooring 12-13mm thick the air operated secrete nailed blows the floor apart, you need to use the hand one like glock said, i find that these are a nice gun to use and get the floor just as tight.

[Markw]

QUOTE=E. maculata]O contrare' my learned comrade, across can indeed look very pleasing, esp if done in a 6-1 ratio:p . you may recall several square metres of your very own flooring being laid this way, and if I may say so myself the results were stunning.

[/QUOTE]
Bruce
Am just about to lay pre-finished P&M brand T&G boards in an L shaped hall. One way or the other I have to lay boards across the hall so could you elaborate on this 6:1 ratio.

Also where is Ultraset sausages available in Sydney West

[E. maculata]

G'day Mark, 6:1 ratio is asthetically pleasing, and when I laid the floor in our last home I used multiples of 6x the board used, ie; 80mm surface x 6 =240mm, 12x=480 18x=720mm etc also made it easier to complete the "L" as thats what we had as well 4.5 metres short side laid across, 9.2 metres laid traditional length ways.

[namtrak]

Bruce
Am just about to lay pre-finished P&M brand T&G boards in an L shaped hall. One way or the other I have to lay boards across the hall ....

Not being an expert, but you could run a floor joist at 45 degree angle at the bend in the hall. And then join the two sets of floorboards in a 45 degree pattern. Does that make sense? I Know what I am trying to explain, just not explaining it

[ThePope]

Not being an expert, but you could run a floor joist at 45 degree angle at the bend in the hall.
Yeah sure, you can do either a straight mitre across the change of direction in the hall, you need to be fairly accurate though and get the mitres to line up precisely.

Or you can run a strip of flooring across and cut your boards up to that. Needs two rows of blocking under to pick up both edges of the angled board.

[Markw]

Thank guys
Unfortunately the timber is required to be laid at 90 degrees to the existing timber floor (across the length) and the original hall was laid length-ways on the longer leg. This continues in the same direction throughout the whole house.

Bruce:
From what I gather from your reply the 6:1 ratio would be a "repeating pattern" of every sixth board :confused:

To All
Where to get Bostik Ultraflex in Sydney, prefferably in the sausages

[E. maculata]

Mark, something along those lines, what I did was lay it down and play with the patterns until we were happy with the results, precutting to those dimensions made it simple.