kung fu

[la Huerta]

was just wondering if there were anyone here trained in the ancient arts...




la H

[ozwinner]

was just wondering if there were anyone here trained in the ancient arts...




la H

Yes.
Bricklaying is an ancient art.

Al :)

[Daddles]

Wing Chun - probably get killed by the average sick kitten now though

Richard

[Ashore]

Got as far as black belt 3rd dan oragami but suffered this realy bad paper cut and had to give it all up



Rgds

[Bodgy]

Could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

[BrisBen]

Pa Qua, Hsing I and Tai Chi Chuan

10 years on and off

[Wongo]

Don't think! Feeeeeel!!:D

Kung Fool? I was born with it.:p

[Clinton1]

lay in wait in dark with pipe length and hit them in the head.

does that count?

[la Huerta]

ok...enough, i bloody walked into that one....!!!, pi$$ing myself laughing at the moment...thanks for the cheer up anyway !!!


la H

[Sturdee]

Does holding your keys in your hand so that the last 20mm protrudes between your fingers making your hand an iron claw count too?

Peter.

[la Huerta]

Does holding your keys in your hand so that the last 20mm protrudes between your fingers making your hand an iron claw count too?

Peter. only if you lunge it forward and look scary at the same time, it might work...

[Wongo]

Dont thank me my son. I have not told

you

the

meaning of

life

yet.:D

[Wongo]

Dont move if the other guy didn't move.:cool:

Wongo (who told the other guy exactly the same thing:D )

[Daddles]

One of my favourite Garfield cartoons.

Bloke: Careful cat, I know Karate.

Garfield: (bloke in shreds): I know fast and furious

Richard:D

[Iain]

Aikido and Bo Jitsu until about 6 stone ago.............

[la Huerta]

at last...how long did you train for Iain, will you ever start up again.

[Iain]

About 5 years with a bloke called John Gay who I think was about a 4th dan.
He spent a long time studying in Japan, I got to brown belt but that was back in the days before Bob Jones started dishing out black belts to kids after a few weeks.
The funniest part was I was stabbed in the neck by a crim once and all I did was kick him in the cods and smash his face in a wall and never even thought about the finer parts of 5 years training.
John Gay also used to teach Vic Police self defense during their initial training in the mid 70's.

[Rusty]

Jeezus! You studied with John Gay? Me too! I was a terrible student (only graded once:o), but I still count him as an big influence on my life. For a bloke who knew a thousand ways to kill you before you you could blink, he was incredibly kind and patient. Although there was this time when he felt we were being a bit slack, so we had to put away the rubber tantos while he fetched the bayonet...

Whenever I find myself daydreaming instead of working or whatever I can hear his voice reminding me to "practice awareness...".

Regards,
Rusty.

[Iain]

Remember his wife, Leonie maiden name was Heap or Heep, she gave me a kicking a couple of times.
And I remember doing some stretch exercises one evening after a big lunch and let out a rather noisy fart in the busy dojo, that was really embarassing.
I remember the big rubber knife he had and would slap you around with it to get you to lose your temper then have some fun with you in front of the group as you tried to hit him, I don't think I ever hit him, too bloody quick.

[Rusty]

John took a hell of a lot of knowledge with him when he passed on, that's for sure.

The answer from me anyway LH, is enough Aikido Kyogi (sport aikido) to keep me out of trouble, and maybe just enough to get me out of a tight spot if I'm on the ball and sober. So that's a big if.:o

Regards,
Rusty.

P.S. just on a historical note, John Gay found upon returning to Japan for a tournament (in about 1992 or so) that he had been promoted in his absence to 6th Dan- highest ranked westerner in that style at the time. he also used to train the Japanese police in the art of tying people up (apparently they don't, or didn't carry cuffs over there).:cool:

[Termite]

Had a dabble with Phillipine Arnis when I lived over there, it is a form of stick fighting using a short cane rod & can be combined with a Balisong (butterfly knife). Never got much good with the stick but became pretty good with the knife.
A few months ago SWMBO asked me to show a couple of her friends a few tricks with the balisong and I found out how a few years without practise and bad carpel tunnels combine with a double edged razor sharp blade. :o

[namtrak]

SWMBO has a black belt in Zen Do Kai - I tend to let her get her way :o

[ozwinner]

SWMBO has a black belt in Zen Do Kai -

And shoes and handbag to match, those Japanese designers are soooooo good arent they??

Al :D

[Termite]

Al, are you going to pay for my beer soaked keyboard. :D

[namtrak]

Ditto - almost spat the Coopers everywhere!!! Which reminds, my next landscaping job is a pond and waterfall. The old fella has a shed half full of brewed Coopers (this job could take a while!!)

[la Huerta]

hey , i'm impressed, shame though you guys don't keep it up...it's never to late to start training again...


la H

[Clinton1]

Thats the beauty of my style, no training involved in hiding in the dark.

[la Huerta]

well if i was to write a comedy, i'll know where to get ideas...

[ozwinner]

well if i was to write a comedy, i'll know where to get ideas...

An American wood forum??

Al :confused:

[dai sensei]

As a kid I studied many styles of Karate, Taekwondo and Kung Fu. Got both legs crushed in an industrial accident and had to give it up:( . As a young adult I took it up again studying Aikido, Wing Chun, but mainly Zen Do Kai.

Got to 2nd degree and ran a number of ZDK clubs in Canberra back in the 80's. My knees gave up and I am now retired (from training), although until a few years back, still attended various classes and gradings as a visiting instructor.

Now my ankles have gone the way of my knees, not to mention too fat, too old, too lazy:eek: :D :D .

[la Huerta]

Dai S...now i'm all emotional...can you still walk around or is it really hard, what's your balance like...

[kiwigeo]

Yes.
Bricklaying is an ancient art.

Al :)

Brick throwing the martial arts offshoot...

[namtrak]

2nd Dan? That's pretty impressive. Is that the one with 30 two minute bouts with a bunch of black belts? Hat is off to you if it is!!

SWMBO trained in Albury through the late 70's early 80's. Has a photo of herself dining with BJ.

Cheers

[kiwigeo]

The funniest part was I was stabbed in the neck by a crim once and all I did was kick him in the cods and smash his face in a wall and never even thought about the finer parts of 5 years training.

No rules in that sort of situation......aim of the exercise is to take out your assailant in quickest possible time. Even with years of martial arts training when you finally find yourself in a situation such as the one above you've got about 3 seconds to decide what to do....you don't get a second chance.

[ozwinner]

what's your balance like...

$4.70 in credit.

Al :p

[kiwigeo]

hey , i'm impressed, shame though you guys don't keep it up...it's never to late to start training again...


la H

La Herta,

In all honesty...martial arts is a young person's game. Take a trip along to a martial arts dojo and the first thing you'll notice is there are two groups of people......people below the age of about 35 who are actively training and people above that age who are marching around barking out orders but not actively training.

The sad fact is Martial arts is hard on your body and once you get into your 40's it all starts to take its toll....lower back pain...arthritis in the hands...and in my case every rib broken at least once.

All that said.....if you feel the urge to give martial arts a go then by all means give it a try. I'm 48 and still doing Shotokan style karate...it'll probably cripple me if I keep it up but while Im still enjoying it so I'll keep doing it.

Cheers Martin

[Gra]

Does ecky thump. count.


:D:D:D:D

Goodies rule...:D:D

[kiwigeo]

Does ecky thump. count.


:D:D:D:D

Goodies rule...:D:D

If youre into the Goodies it definitely counts. Ecky Thump a very under rated but deadly Welsh martial art.

[ozwinner]

If youre into the Goodies it definitely counts. Ecky Thump a very under rated but deadly Welsh martial art.

Sorry Martin but the ancient art of Ecky Thump is from Yorkshire.

Al :)

[Studley 2436]

Some years ago I had a Japanese mate called Takashi. He was doing a job photographing the tourists at Circular Quay and there were some Australian kids, "saying bad things about me but I can't say anything back to them because my english is no good" so he said to them, "hey boys, you know Karate?" they looked at each other and go &&&& and run away. Takashi told me they don't know Karate but he doesn't know Karate either but they think all asian know Karate! I thought that was pretty good

Studley

[la Huerta]

La Herta,

In all honesty...martial arts is a young person's game. Take a trip along to a martial arts dojo and the first thing you'll notice is there are two groups of people......people below the age of about 35 who are actively training and people above that age who are marching around barking out orders but not actively training.

The sad fact is Martial arts is hard on your body and once you get into your 40's it all starts to take its toll....lower back pain...arthritis in the hands...and in my case every rib broken at least once.

All that said.....if you feel the urge to give martial arts a go then by all means give it a try. I'm 48 and still doing Shotokan style karate...it'll probably cripple me if I keep it up but while Im still enjoying it so I'll keep doing it.

Cheers Martin


yes this is the point, what they teach in the dojo's is to much based on muscle and brute strenth, no wonder people get tied of it and suffer pains latter in life,it's to rigid. the answer is in the soft free flowing form and internal developement...the ancient ones new this and trained into the 80's and 90's as it does'nt require muscle energy or strenth, just air...



la H

[Iain]

No rules in that sort of situation......aim of the exercise is to take out your assailant in quickest possible time. Even with years of martial arts training when you finally find yourself in a situation such as the one above you've got about 3 seconds to decide what to do....you don't get a second chance.
I can laugh about it now but there was blood pissing out of my neck and I thought I was dead, I figured that if I was on my way to the pearly gates I wanted some company and told the little swine this, 3 seconds, no, about 1/3 second.
To top it all off the little bastard had me charged for assault but an interview with some of Victoria's (take note DanP) finest had him change his mind fairly quickly.
I was presented with a Valour Medal and he got 5 years:D :D :D :D
Another gong for the collection but I do get a bit cynical, not a footy player so I'm not a hero for saving a lot of lives for my efforts..............the little prick was armed as well.
Would I do it again, no idea, I have no idea how I would react in a similar situation if confronted again, and I get really off when people say 'if it was me I would have blah blah blah' Bullshyte, you have no idea how you will react until the pressure is on, unless it's in a Hollywood script.

[China]

Tae kwon do (Moo Duk Kwan) 15years 3rd Dan

[la Huerta]

China...cool !

Iain...you speak words that only a wise man would...


la H

[dai sensei]

Dai S...now i'm all emotional...can you still walk around or is it really hard, what's your balance like...

The legs still work, balance has always been my downfall:D


2nd Dan? That's pretty impressive. Is that the one with 30 two minute bouts with a bunch of black belts? Hat is off to you if it is!!

SWMBO trained in Albury through the late 70's early 80's. Has a photo of herself dining with BJ.

Cheers

Yeh 30 rounds of full contact where they can hit you, but you must show restraint. I ended up with broken nose (in the 5th round:mad: ), 3 broken toes, 2 broken bones in my hand, shins and forearms a mass of bruises. Puts it in perspective why they call it the "blood grading". I was on such a high though, I didn't feel the real pain till hours afterwards. I have a photo taken 2 weeks later, and I still had the black eyes.

These days, because of liability, they fight a punching bag for 30 rounds - not quite the same.

I met BJ many times, he hit on my wife one time when we went out:eek:

Cheers

[la Huerta]

speaking of wanting to kick ass, what's with this guy in the machinery threads asking for a business partner, only 4 posts, sounds a little suss, he re-threaded himself into the bandsaw section now and does'nt want to talk much...

[bsrlee]

Lets see - a few years of Judo (retired broken leg) plus a few months of Dai Dao (big choppy thing on a stick). A few years on & off 'Modern Medieval' sword & shield, polearm, 2 handed sword.

A couple of decades on & off archery: European, Japanese & Central Asian.

Many years with Rifle, some years with Pistols, Machine guns (LMG) & other automatic weapons. Indirect fire is a bit beyond me. I'm hopeless with a shotgun unless I use it like a musket - can't hit moving targets.

And I'm always much wiser half an hour AFTER any threat situation, by which time it is safely too late to do anything.:D

[la Huerta]

i admire your ability with guns, but i just hate them, infact all weapons give me chills, much prefere hand to hand combat, braking bones, internal damage etc...besides unless it's a war ,what the hell are you going to shoot at in real life anyway, and unless your a cop or live in Texas, your not likely to have a weapon handy when you need it...

[bsrlee]

Just remember that the knife & fork you eat with are weapons, as is the hammer you hit nails with. Some years ago I could get access to the raw data for crime statistics before it was 'massaged' for public consumption - more people were killed with with weapons like 'hammer/chisel' and 'foot' than all firearm related casualties listed on the system.

If you are an 'Aunty Jack' fan, you might remember how the 'Nowra Ninja' got his - a chop stick in each ear :eek:

[Iain]

My feet are deadly weapons, just that while I'm taking off my shoes and socks I get the crap kicked out of me Courtesy of the late Dave Allan

[silentC]

I did Goju Kai for a couple of years but never got very far with it. Yellow belt with 2 green stripes. I did learn to count to 10 in Japanese though, so it wasn't a complete loss!

[bitingmidge]

Now listen carefully chaps:

Like Clinton, I am a grand master at the art of Hideind Ark and have had more than 50 years practice.

With the onset of age, and this may be in part due to the fact that as one gets older one's wardrobes have a somewhat less sulubrious content than they once enjoyed, I have noticed a distinct wheeze creeping into my hiding technique, which of course will eventually give the game away.

I am rather proud of the fact that I won my last fight by nearly 200 yards, and to this day am mystified (no offence) by the need of some of our number to learn "self defence" techniques.

On the rare occasion that I have inadvertantly placed myself in danger, I have relied entirely on the traditional Australian art of Pic Khandles Winging, and to my knowledge remain undefeated in that art.

Cheers,

P (Who would never take a knife to a gunfight)
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[la Huerta]

that sounds similar to the 'crouching under table hidden in the dark' technique...


bsrlee...your right about the common household items are weapons, i once hit my thum with the hummer, and stabed my self in the hand with a chisel, yep good weapons....

paper cuts can kill too...

[Iain]

Are Biting Midges related to Grasshoppers (or indeed glasshopper):confused: :rolleyes:
Or as a friend of mine used to say (wif criff wodga voice) what kung fu dat.......

[Termite]

I still prefer to dissuade the attacker, usually only a small amount is required, I find that 9mm is enough to have them saluting. Not Seig Heil, Sig Sauer:rolleyes:

[Iain]

Isn't that .38 or .357 in imperial:p

[Termite]

Isn't that .38 or .357 in imperial:p
One of the things to love/hate about Imperial, as you know they're both the same calibre except the little one has far more bang behind it. Sort of like the difference between getting hit by an orange or a house brick. :D

9mm Black Talon is house brick material too. ;)

[la Huerta]

this gun talk is good and all but what if you are unarmed at the time...that's were 'steal hand" comes in handy, (not a myth), imagine being able to hit so fast (about 8+ punches per second)and so hard that one punch will cause massive internal dammage to the attacker...


brutal...

[MICKYG]

Hi all,

Had a burger at the golden M today and i am sure it had a kung fu on but it tasted like had been run over with a truck and allowed to mature in the sun for a day and scraped up of the road especially for me :p :p :p :p

Regards Mike

[la Huerta]

yes MICKYG it was, did'nt you know that...they all are

[kiwigeo]

this gun talk is good and all but what if you are unarmed at the time...that's were 'steal hand" comes in handy, (not a myth), imagine being able to hit so fast (about 8+ punches per second)and so hard that one punch will cause massive internal dammage to the attacker...


brutal...

La Huerta,

Just my 10 yens worth on this one....

From my experience being able to hit fast can only be achieved by sacrificing the power in the punch.....the young guns in the dojo I frequent are fast but their punches lack power. The older boys (not necessarily including myself here) hit alot slower but when they make contact....ouch!!

When you quote 8 punches a second it sounds fast but in most martial arts fast punches are done with both hands working alternately in quick succession....I reckon some of the kids in my dojo could get fairly close to that speed with their punches.

Cheers Martin

[namtrak]

And my two bobs worth, if your ever in a actual situation where you need to use force - either gun, knife, hands whatever - then I can guarantee you never want to be in that situation again. I often think that those that romantise self defence (in any form) have never been in a situation where they needed to actually do it. Because the reality of violent situations is that they are nerve wracking, terrifying, sickening and unwanted.

:eek:

[Iain]

Because the reality of violent situations is that they are nerve wracking, terrifying, sickening and unwanted.

:eek:
Mine wasn't, just didn't have time to consider what to do, just became instinctive, no fear or any other feeling at the time, knees went to jelly about three hours later after the andrenalin subsided.
I wasn't frightened, scared, feeling heroic, in fact I felt absolutely nothing, even the knife wound didn't hurt.....................at the time.
If you are expecting a confrontation I suspect this would all be different.

[kiwigeo]

And my two bobs worth, if your ever in a actual situation where you need to use force - either gun, knife, hands whatever - then I can guarantee you never want to be in that situation again. I often think that those that romantise self defence (in any form) have never been in a situation where they needed to actually do it. Because the reality of violent situations is that they are nerve wracking, terrifying, sickening and unwanted.

:eek:

Aaaaamen to the above.

[la Huerta]

La Huerta,

Just my 10 yens worth on this one....

From my experience being able to hit fast can only be achieved by sacrificing the power in the punch.....the young guns in the dojo I frequent are fast but their punches lack power. The older boys (not necessarily including myself here) hit alot slower but when they make contact....ouch!!

When you quote 8 punches a second it sounds fast but in most martial arts fast punches are done with both hands working alternately in quick succession....I reckon some of the kids in my dojo could get fairly close to that speed with their punches.

Cheers Martin

unfortunatly they don't teach spring power in the dojo's infact only a few people actually know it, and it has the ability to hit at at speed from any angle with a force like you'v never felt before, if getting hit by a normal person is like behing hit by a stick and a top martial artist hits like a brick, then with spring power it's like being hit by a massive sledge hammer...and with hands so fast they become invisible...cool hey...

[la Huerta]

sorry i did'nt mean to get so serious about all this...:o


lets all try and avoid voilence in the first place, if you do get into a situation where an attacter may want kill you, just hit the bloke as hard as you can and do not stop, screem , yell , kick, go loco loco ,make him absolutly affraid of you...even if you can't hit a fly in an outhouse...he's not to no that...

this is just theory of cause and i don't take any responsibility for your attempts to fool the bad guy, if you wind up dead , don't come crying to me..:D:D:D

[Clinton1]

And my two bobs worth, if your ever in a actual situation where you need to use force - either gun, knife, hands whatever - then I can guarantee you never want to be in that situation again. .... Because the reality of violent situations is that they are nerve wracking, terrifying, sickening and unwanted.


The above is true, true, true.

[dai sensei]

Namtrak is correct, no matter how good you think you are. Likewise Midge is correct, the best way of defending yourself is running away - I used to always preach that at my classes.

Martial arts is more than just learning how to fight though. It teaches confidence, control, ethics and a lot more - it can be a way of life. My proudest moments relate to young students that improved their marks at school through the confidence in themselves, not actually learing how to fight better.

As for speed, you must always remember, sooner or later you will meet someone that is better then you. The people I worried most about were the beginners, they were so unpredictable. As beginners you sometimes let your guard down. On the other hand, one of my old instructors was a weight lifter and hit like a mac truck. Mind you, he was still so fast that I usually blocked his punches on the way back from my head:o

Cheers

[la Huerta]

Namtrak is correct, no matter how good you think you are. Likewise Midge is correct, the best way of defending yourself is running away - I used to always preach that at my classes.

Martial arts is more than just learning how to fight though. It teaches confidence, control, ethics and a lot more - it can be a way of life. My proudest moments relate to young students that improved their marks at school through the confidence in themselves, not actually learing how to fight better.

As for speed, you must always remember, sooner or later you will meet someone that is better then you. The people I worried most about were the beginners, they were so unpredictable. As beginners you sometimes let your guard down. On the other hand, one of my old instructors was a weight lifter and hit like a mac truck. Mind you, he was still so fast that I usually blocked his punches on the way back from my head:o

Cheers


yes better to avoid voilence in the first place ...

but as you say , apart from a few ego minded wankers around, martial arts is something one learns for the reason that it's just so damm fasinating to watch your body become capable of things beyond what was though to be possible, build confidence, awareness and understanding of one's self...and lots of good fun...



have a peachy day:)

[womble]

And my two bobs worth, if your ever in a actual situation where you need to use force - either gun, knife, hands whatever - then I can guarantee you never want to be in that situation again. I often think that those that romantise self defence (in any form) have never been in a situation where they needed to actually do it. Because the reality of violent situations is that they are nerve wracking, terrifying, sickening and unwanted.

:eek:

While at work at jail yesterday we saw a couple of silly bints on the TV demonstrating 'self defence' against a bloke dressed in a padded suit. We wondered how well they'd go against a real crim who was actually using force instead of a compliant demo bloke who wasn't struggling...

Bit dangerous I thought, makes people think that they can disarm and disable someone with a few simple twists that they saw on TV...

[kiwigeo]

My weapon of choice is a Trend T5 router with a 25mm straight cutter......if I get stopped by the police I just tell them Im on the way to a Woodies meet and Greet.

[Clinton1]

I could tell a few stories about 'martial arts experts' and how they have come off in real world situations; got enough experience to see a pretty clear trend. A lot of people confuse training 'experience' with real world ability though.
To me the benefits to someones mental space achieved through practicing a martial arts speaks volumes about that person.
What happened to that person to have them be able to gain self confidence by thinking that they are good at beating up other people? Sounds like a few unresolved issues are hanging around.

To me, if an issue is that important that you have to go the knucks, then there is no point in loosing. Either run, or find a big stick. Or pretend it is all ok, and pay a later visit.

As for the "silly bints" ... never listen to someone on this issue who hasn't got the scars to lend authority.

[dai sensei]

I could tell a few stories about 'martial arts experts' and how they have come off in real world situations; got enough experience to see a pretty clear trend. A lot of people confuse training 'experience' with real world ability though.
To me the benefits to someones mental space achieved through practicing a martial arts speaks volumes about that person.
What happened to that person to have them be able to gain self confidence by thinking that they are good at beating up other people? Sounds like a few unresolved issues are hanging around.

To me, if an issue is that important that you have to go the knucks, then there is no point in loosing. Either run, or find a big stick. Or pretend it is all ok, and pay a later visit.

As for the "silly bints" ... never listen to someone on this issue who hasn't got the scars to lend authority.

I think you are mixing up those who think they are experts, and those who really are. Those I consider experts have no problems. Most of those have usually studies many styles, been bouncers, and fought in the ring. I have done all those, but have never considered myself anywhere near an expert.

Unresolved issues - yes you are right in some ways, a lot of people do have unresolved issues. Martial arts is not however, just about learning how to beat up people, a misconception by many. The "book of five rings" is a book based on martial arts, but is studied by the majority of successfull business men in Japan, and a lot of other countries. It is a lot about expanding that mental space in many ways.

I love your last 2 para's though, all true.

[la Huerta]

those who do martial arts for the sole purpose of wanting to fight someone has serious mental problems , i know a few famous business men (as well as regular joes) who do ku-fu , and do it because they enjoy it and never ever fight, it's just a special thing and helps there mental ability in there work and goals in life...

[Rusty]

Yeah, I dropped out years ago, but even back in the day it was never about bashing people. Aikido particularly (being a throwing style) emphasises that it's important to train so that you have the ability not to injure your opponent (or sustain injury), i.e. to be fit enough to fight until your opponent is exhausted, and skilful enough to defend yourself without causing harm, if you so choose.

The best thing, I agree, is to avoid hassles in the first place. I'm definitely no hero, but I hope that I picked up enough to keep my wits about me when I'm out and to not go to pieces if something untoward does occur- at least I'll remember which direction to run in!;)

Anyway 'martial arts" is a broad label. Everything from ancient Chinese battlefield styles to "soft" chi-developing forms that have nothing to do with combat are included.

Night, all.
Rusty.

[Gingermick]

I've just started wing chun and am finding it fantastic. A much harder work out than going to the gym and I'm getting confidence already. I hate violence, but want to be able to defend myself and family and property from those who wish to hurt them. We did some Brazilian ju jitsu choke holds last night. Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of them.

[jerryc]

have been reading these accounts of macho happenings with dismay. Hate to bring religion into this discussion but for some of us it is against our religion to engage in this sort of behaviour. I am an Orthodox Coward. true in my younger days I played union rugby but you must remember it is a gentlemanly sport and we are very sorry if anyone gets hurt.

JHerry

[jerryc]

Typo error

Jerry

[Koala-Man]

I've just started wing chun and am finding it fantastic. A much harder work out than going to the gym and I'm getting confidence already. I hate violence, but want to be able to defend myself and family and property from those who wish to hurt them. We did some Brazilian ju jitsu choke holds last night. Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of them.

Someone has to say it: "Brazilian ju Jitsu choke hold" - is that when you get your opponent in a headlock and shave off... oh never mind.:B

Gaz.

[Gingermick]

shave off their ability to beathe ya mean