Sutton and P&N

[Itms]

I am looking at new general purpose drill bits. Is there a difference between them as owned by same company?
Any other suggestions

[Mobyturns]

I am looking at new general purpose drill bits. Is there a difference between them as owned by same company?
Any other suggestions

Short answer - dunno!

Very few trades persons / machinists and virtually no hobbyists have the means to empirically test tool quality, so we rely upon "real world testing" which is really a gut feel about how well a tool performs. It's definitely getting more difficult to believe the wording about quality, place of manufacture in brochures and advertising and on packaging as advertising "spin doctors" like to create an impression that may not reflect reality.

There was a discussion about Sutton, place of manufacture etc on this thread. https://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/carbitool-sutton-249943?highlight=sutton

I just purchased some Sutton masonry drill bits (standard not SDS) - packaging says "Made in France."

In my experience the Viper bits are very good, for what I do, the P&N standard countersinks - weelll - no better than the other competitors as they are also Chinese made.

[jack620]

Sutton Viper are very good for the price. Used to be made in NZ until the factory burned down. They are rebuilding the factory. Not sure where the Vipers are being made now. P&N are not good in my experience.

[AnthonySeiver]

Project Farm just tested drill bits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94UbNphysY).

While the brands might be different it does show a (somewhat) objective way of testing drill bits. I say somewhat in they are tested on a farm not in a lab with certified instruments.

For what it's worth I use P&N drill but I am just a hobbyist drilling timber and they work well.

[Itms]

P&N apparently are made in Australia according to their website. Suttons they used to say made in Australia or NZ on the packet but now omits the origin.
I haven't used P&N in years, their bits looks like are mostly m35 colbalt.

[jack620]

P&N apparently are made in Australia according to their website.

I don't see that on their website.

[Itms]

About Us - P&N Tools (https://www.pntools.com.au/about-us/#:~:text=Today%2C%20Sutton%20Tools%20still%20operates,Kaiapoi%2C%20New%20Zealand).

[SteveSaysHi]

I recently bought some bits for their countersink thingo, made in Taiwan. So at least some P&N bits are made in Taiwan.

[jack620]

About Us - P&N Tools (https://www.pntools.com.au/about-us/#:~:text=Today%2C%20Sutton%20Tools%20still%20operates,Kaiapoi%2C%20New%20Zealand).

Yes, I saw that. But I don't see how you conclude that P&N makes their tools in Australia from:

"Today, Sutton Tools still operates three main manufacturing sites, in:


Thomastown (northern Melbourne)
Maryborough (central Victoria)
Kaiapoi, New Zealand."

If you can find a new P&N branded tool with "Made in Australia" on the label I'll be very surprised.

[Itms]

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either

- - - Updated - - -

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either.
Unsure where there made only whats on the website

[Mobyturns]

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either

- - - Updated - - -

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either.
Unsure where there made only whats on the website

Not true. I visited local retail outlets during the last discussion and took images of current stock packaging. Some were not labeled with country of origin, but many were including France, Japan, PRC, Taiwan, NZ .... with some even showing the 100% Australian Made logo & Made in Australia. Global manufacturing at work.

[Itms]

Not true. I visited local retail outlets during the last discussion and took images of current stock packaging. Some were not labeled with country of origin, but many were including France, Japan, PRC, Taiwan, NZ .... with some even showing the 100% Australian Made logo & Made in Australia. Global manufacturing at work.

Is that for sutton and p&n?
When i was looking at the viper line on particular there was no made on the packaging

[Mobyturns]

Is that for sutton and p&n?
When i was looking at the viper line on particular there was no made on the packaging

Both. I forgot to add India above as well.

Quite a lot of their packaging now displays no place or country of manufacture, or if shown the country of manufacture in print very much smaller than the main print around it. The packaging typically shows "100% Australian Owned" quite prominently. I visited high turnover tool stores and the green shed. I have drill bits purchased over a decade ago still in packaging that is definitely marked with "Made in Australia" and displaying the Australian Made logo etc. Some even show the place of manufacture.

Have a look at Sutton's Merchandiser Catalogue to see the brands and lines Sutton supplies - very slick retail marketing displays etc. Sutton Tools Merchandiser Catalogue 2022 by Sutton Tools - Issuu (https://issuu.com/suttontools/docs/merchandising_catalogue_2022)

Then there is the tens of thousands of lines of products, ranges and sizing Sutton supplies.

Drill bits -

62 page Trade DIY drill bit catalogue = https://suttontools-2022.s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/Brochure and Catalogue/Catalogues/Sutton Tools/2_Consumer Catalogue Drilling.pdf

https://suttontools-2022.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/Brochure+and+Catalogue/Brochures/Sutton+Tools/Consumer/499980164_MetalDrills_DL+brochure.pdf

https://suttontools-2022.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/Brochure+and+Catalogue/Catalogues/Sutton+Tools/499980054_Europe+Catalogue_ENGLISH/499980054_HSS+Drills_EuroEN.pdf

I have no problem with the global supply model IF the company maintains quality. There is no doubting Sutton Tools expertise in designing and supplying "World class cutting tools."

I don't like "clever" advertising, promotion & packaging that is quite deliberately and calculatedly designed by the advertising guru's to form the impression that we are some how supporting Aussie jobs. Misleading ??? perhaps not in a strictly legal sense. The trade DIY side of their business has quite slick retail merchandising.

Have look for yourself at their brochures - no prominent place of manufacture Brochures | Sutton Tools (https://suttontools.com/catalogue-media/brochures/?brochure_cat=Sutton+Tools)

This was in the 174 Mb 362 page 2022 Consumer Catalogue -

[Mobyturns]

I am looking at new general purpose drill bits. Is there a difference between them as owned by same company?
Any other suggestions

Back to the original Q - "is there a difference between them."

On the tradie & retail consumer side there is definitely benefits in the various drill bit designs in real world situations. Point angle, cutting face shape etc will offer various pro's and cons such as longevity, wear, risk of damage, performance, drilling force required, power required etc

In my experience with wood turning & doing a lot drilling into end grain for pepper mill, pen and project blanks the Viper out performs all others by a country mile and then some. However when it comes to end grain QLD Maple - all bets are off - even with the Viper bits!

Same applies to Forstner style bit designs, some brands & designs definitely perform very well over all with hole specifications etc. But not always and not in all woods!

Viper bits cut more cleanly with less force and less power required. Resharpen them with the Tormek DB22 to the 4 facet cutting face very significantly improves their performance to a much higher level - in my main application. However if you use that same grind for drilling in mild steel steel it becomes far more fragile.

[jack620]

I just rang Sutton head office in Melbourne. The "gatekeeper" on reception wouldn't put me through to anyone who could answer my questions. But she did give me the email address of Dianne, who in in charge of their imported tools section. The receptionist did say that P&N tools are "probably not" made in Australia. :)
She also said some of the viper drill bits are made in NZ at what's left of the old factory while the new factory is being built.

I've emailed Dianne and asked her where P&N tools are made. Standby.

[Itms]

Silver bullets vs viper, are they similar or is viper better all round.
Can get really good pricing on bulk silver bullets.
For wood i use an expensive set of brad points. Only use them for critical work.
Looking at replacing my milwaukee red helix drills as they blunt real quick

[jack620]

So two years ago you bought a metric set and an imperial set of Sutton Vipers. What was your experience with them? I'm confused now about what it is you are asking advice for.

Suttons viper vs Milwaukee red helix (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f11/suttons-viper-vs-milwaukee-red-helix-245178-post2267295#post2267295)

[Itms]

Got both milwaukee go blunt easily. Sutton viper aint too bad, only snapped a 3.5mn bit.
Was looking at spare sets wether to get more vipers or get p&n which i can get at a discount especially their workshop range.
I still have my colbalts, can't remember what they are just that its in a purple container.
Also have expensive brad points i only uses for critical work.

[Itms]

I have been told viper bits are going exclusively to bunnings which is interesting
Sutton are now definitely gone off shore i looked at few packages and says made in taiwan.

[jack620]

No reply from Sutton to my questions. Have sent Dianne a nudge.

[Vann]

No reply from Sutton to my questions. Have sent Dianne a nudge.

I'm interested to see what she says.

I like to support local industry (what's left of it over here) and am prepared to pay a bit more for the privilege. I don't like it when production is moved to distant countries, as that's usually done economic reasons, not for quality reasons - but I accept that is modern practice.

However what does raise my hackles is when they hide the country of origin. That's usually a sign they have done something they're not happy to admit. Or in other words, if made in Taiwan is as good as or better than made in Aus or NZ, why not show it? Why hide it?

Cheers, Vann.

[Mobyturns]

I have been told viper bits are going exclusively to bunnings which is interesting
Sutton are now definitely gone off shore i looked at few packages and says made in taiwan.

I talked to a Sutton's rep in Bunnings a while back in early 2023 or perhaps late 2022 (?) about the range of Viper bits that Bunning's carry - no fractional sizes in 32nd or 64th imperial sizes which are required by pen turners. His reply was that Bunnings will only carry the part range and suggested I look to "other" tool stores for those sizes.

[twosheds]

Would I be right in thinking the only difference between Sutton Vipers and Suttons other drill brands such as Silver Bullet and Blue Bullet is the split point grind on the Vipers? They are all M2 steel (Vipers are 'european' M2) with 118 degree grind according to the blurb. Once the Vipers are re-sharpened will they basically revert to the Bullet series standard unless you resharpen with the split point grind?

I suspect a split point regrind is beyond most users ability so is the Viper marketing blurb just marketing blurb??

I'm not Sutton or Viper bashing... just wondering.

Regards
Twosheds

Disclosure: All my drill sets are Sutton (made in Aust) except for one P&N set (also made in Aust) and one regrettable Frost set. I don't have any Viper sets apart from replacements of busted bits in the Sutton sets. I can't freehand sharpen with a split point regrind to save my life but my tormek grinder & jig does an exceptionally good job.

[Itms]

Yesterday i got a new set of suttons holesaws. They say made in china but seem same as before. Found it interesting.

[Itms]

Yesterday i got a new set of suttons holesaws. They say made in china but seem same as before. Found it interesting.

I got some p&n taps and were made in china too. Quality seems the same

[Wol]

I just checked a new 1/16th I think viper bit I bought a year or so ago, Australian owned on the front and made in New Zealand on the back (which is quite consistent).

I find them okay for woodworking.

[jack620]

No reply to my follow-up email to Sutton about the origins of their P&N range. Pretty poor form to completely ignore a customer I reckon.

[Itms]

No reply to my follow-up email to Sutton about the origins of their P&N range. Pretty poor form to completely ignore a customer I reckon.

Thats poor business practice looks like they are hiding place if manufacturing. Older viper bits said made in new Zealand but nothing on there now.
Seen a few sutton products made in china. Quality seems same though

[jack620]

Older viper bits said made in new Zealand but nothing on there now.

The NZ factory burned down a couple of years ago. They are doing some manufacturing in what is left of the factory while the new factory is being built. Maybe it got too hard to put country of manufacture on the Vipers because they are made in different countries? You’d think the Kiwis could package their bits with “Made in New Zealand” on them. We’ll probably never know as Sutton refuses to answer questions.

[Itms]

The NZ factory burned down a couple of years ago. They are doing some manufacturing in what is left of the factory while the new factory is being built. Maybe it got too hard to put country of manufacture on the Vipers because they are made in different countries? You’d think the Kiwis could package their bits with “Made in New Zealand” on them. We’ll probably never know as Sutton refuses to answer questions.

When they refuse i reckon they have something to hide

[jack620]

I had a look at the Sutton range in Bunnings today and found the following:

The ⅛" Viper drill bit was marked "New Zealand Made"
The ⅜" Viper bit was marked "Australian Made"
The double-ended rivet drill bits were marked "Made in Australia"
The P&N M6 tap and drill bit set was marked "Made in China"

[Itms]

I had a look at the Sutton range in Bunnings today and found the following:

The ⅛" Viper drill bit was marked "New Zealand Made"
The ⅜" Viper bit was marked "Australian Made"
The double-ended rivet drill bits were marked "Made in Australia"
The P&N M6 tap and drill bit set was marked "Made in China"


I bought sutton tap and die. Was made in china. Auger made in taiwan. Holesaw are Chinese made too. I have bought them all recently. My new 2nd set of sutton heavy duty cobalt set has no country of origin on it, the older one did. Same with viper set said made in new Zealand 25 piece one i had for while. Sutton has in recent drills and sets not stating where they are made.
Quality seems same though

[clear out]

I needed a holesaw to drill 2 x 90mm holes in a plastic water tank.
I had a Starrett 86mm saw which had made an 88 hole.
I bought a cheap (under $10) P & N holesaw from mitre ten.
Made in China with a non standard single central pilot drill set up.
It was thinner gauge steel than the Starret and although marked 90mm on packaging only measured 89.
Worked ok, of the two holes after removing the top and bottom plastic burrs one fitted the other needed about 1mm carved out with a snap knife.
I’m happy with the result, cheap enough I could have spent $50 to $100 on a better saw from bunnies or Sydney/total tools but this did the job.
H.

[jack620]

It was thinner gauge steel than the Starret and although marked 90mm on packaging only measured 89.


The hole saw measured 89mm or the hole it made? In my experience they wobble like crazy and make oversize holes. Maybe they make them slightly undersize to allow for that?

[clear out]

It measures a fraction under 89mm.
It drilled one 90mm hole and one oval shaped one say 89mm x 90mm which was easy to make fit in plastic. Hand held drill with tank on its side.

I find the Starrett and other quality saws ok in a drill press normally with the sheet metal clamped and coolant/lube used.
Ive been known to replace the pilot drill with a plain pilot after predrilling the pilot hole exactly where I want it.
H.