The Australian ID Card [Archive]

ozwinner

16th January 2006, 07:39 PM

Havent really been paying much attention to the talk on the ID card, what information are these things going to have that licences and things dont already have about us? How do they weed out terrorists? are they hard to make forgeries of or something.

Im sure theres a website with the answers if I could be bothered to look :p

Someone I know used to make fake driving licences to get into night clubs, .............not for driving purposes.
It was dark and the bouncers didnt check too well..

So I would imagine it wouldnt be too hard to make an Oz Card.

If you want an Oz Card PM me................

Al :)

Gumby

16th January 2006, 08:06 PM

How do they weed out terrorists?

They don';t give one to terrorists, so if you don't have one, you must be a terrorist.

See, simple. I like it. If you haven't got one, you get shot.

Ashore

16th January 2006, 08:08 PM

Oges
My wife had her licence stolen a couple of years age , was renewed with her showing a visa card as refference , I have also heard of women who have applied for and gotten a new licence ( Saying it was lost or stolen) because they wanted a better picture

I don't think Drivers licences are that good

Maybe an ID card won't be any better , but it can't be much worse

Grunt

16th January 2006, 08:08 PM

Just because other countries have'em doesn't mean it's a good thing.

The law makers just have to mention terrorism and they can pass just about any law they want. The sedition laws that we have are something out of Berlin in the 1930s.

We are governed by people who use fear to keep them in power. It works a treat too. Both sides of politics are guilty as the other.

Grunt

16th January 2006, 08:10 PM

Maybe an ID card won't be any better , but it can't be much worse

It'll be just a few years and Gumby will be right. Meybe they won't be shot but certainly detained, without trial and without legal representation. Don't laugh, these are the laws we have now.

Shedhand

16th January 2006, 08:23 PM

I don't see a real problem. Only crims and rich tax avoiding barstards will be against it. What does irk me though is that they'll squander a couple of tens of million dollars setting up an inquiry, writing reports, hiring consultants and badmouthing each other when the nsimple solution is right under their collective noses. Send everyone with a Medicare Card (which is all of us) a new improved Photo ID Australian Medicare Card and simply print our Tax File Number on it. When you retire the TFN converts to a Social Security number. The real bonus is that everyone still working will never lose track of their superannuation. Currently $8.1 Billion is being held in the Lost Superannuation Fund administered by the ATO. Privacy Laws prevent the super funds using tax file numbers to track down fund owners. Its a shonky way for the government (of all persuasions) to keep their greedy mitts on our money.:mad:
Getting down off the box now.:mad:

Driver

16th January 2006, 08:28 PM

I don't think Drivers licences are that good

Au contraire, mon brave! There's nothing wrong with my licences! People have been scamming their way into dodgy nightclubs with them for years.

redwood

16th January 2006, 08:36 PM

Privacy Laws prevent the super funds using tax file numbers to track down fund owners. Its a shonky way for the government (of all persuasions) to keep their greedy mitts on our money.:mad:
Getting down off the box now.:mad:

Shed go

https://superseeker.super.ato.gov.au/individuals/default.aspx?pid=0

enter your TFN, date of birth, blah blah, and if your owed it will be here:D

Grunt

16th January 2006, 08:42 PM

I don't see what good it will do. Terrorist have been known to lie, cheat and produce fake Ids. I don't think that this will stop those who want to bad.

It will however make it possible for a government of the future to enact laws that will further errode our civil rights. If you look back in history, this is what facist governments have done. Our rights are erroded in small ways until we one day wake up and discover that we have none.

redwood

16th January 2006, 08:45 PM

Terrorist have been known to lie, cheat and produce fake Ids. . Nah, you cant be serious can you:confused:

Gumby

16th January 2006, 08:49 PM

Nah, you cant be serious can you:confused:

Nah, he isn't. Terrorists aren't all bad. The ones that flew the planes into the WTC paid for theirt tickets at least.

redwood

16th January 2006, 08:57 PM

Nah, he isn't. Terrorists aren't all bad. The ones that flew the planes into the WTC paid for theirt tickets at least.

but did they claim their frequent flyer points

Shedhand

16th January 2006, 08:59 PM

Shed go

https://superseeker.super.ato.gov.au/individuals/default.aspx?pid=0

enter your TFN, date of birth, blah blah, and if your owed it will be here:DYeah, been there done that mate. The problem is, most of the money belongs to highly job mobile young people who dont understand super, don't care about it, don't read about it and therefore don't know they have money somewhere. If their (and our) TFN numbers were required to be included on super member application forms then any lost money would be automatically added to your account. Its just to simple for the stupid government to accept.:( You'd puke if I told you where the lost money eventually ends up and what happens with it in the interim.:mad:

Gra

16th January 2006, 09:17 PM

What will the OZ card do that the current tax file number system cant do??

it wont stop terrorists. The hijackers from 9/11 used their own names and identity papers.

Until someone can tell me how this small peice of plastic will legitamatly stop terrorism im against.

Lets put it bluntly, if someone is going to fly a 747 into a building or blow them selves up with explosives, How is an idenity card going to stop them???.

redwood

16th January 2006, 09:26 PM

You'd puke if I told you where the lost money eventually ends up and what happens with it in the interim.:mad:

No i wouldnt, i dont get stressed about such things, i couldnt care less. my super is in order and thats all i worry about. if anyone cant find theirs bad luck for being careless. anyway when you have a half a cube of blackwood in the shed to play with why stress over such trivial matters:D

AlexS

16th January 2006, 10:29 PM

The best reason to be against the ID card is that Ruddock is for it.

Well, maybe not the best reason, but a quite good one.

Ashore

16th January 2006, 10:42 PM

Then the best reason for it is Peter Garrett is against it

Well, maybe not the best reason, but a quite good one.

E. maculata

16th January 2006, 11:24 PM

The best reason to be against the ID card is that Ruddock is for it.

Well, maybe not the best reason, but a quite good one.

Too True

E. maculata

16th January 2006, 11:30 PM

Besides it's really easy to identify terrorists, everyone know they drive Pajeros or VW Kombis'.

Seriously why does the government think terrorists will not be legit aussie citizens, what we don't have enough disaffected marginalised people of our own all too willing to listen and get brainwashed by any fix it quick with violence propaganda marchant, that we'd have to import some illegal ones:rolleyes: .

Sturdee

16th January 2006, 11:32 PM

A national ID card will not stop terrorism. It didn't stop the London attacks either. Even if the TFN is included it will not stop tax evasion, which is different from the legal tax avoidance, and it will cost billions and erode our freedoms.

Whilst the current government might be genuinely concerned about terrorism and think it will help in its fight against it, a future government will use it to suppress our already limited freedom.

Introducing a national ID card is a bit like changing our constitution. If the government is for it a thinking person would automatically reject it. Can't trust the pollies in that regard whatever their colour or party.

Peter.

Termite

17th January 2006, 08:03 AM

Licences have been mentioned here a few times. Lets hope the ID card is administered a bit better than licences, I just renewed my Drivers licence for free by handing over my Pension Card.
Great, they just renewed a heavy vehicle drivers licence for a bloke on a Disability pension.

Groggy

17th January 2006, 08:25 AM

I didn't read this thread as specifically due to terrorism, but more as a sign of the times.

I agree with being able to clearly identify an individual if necessary, whether it be for police reasons, taxation or to claim benefits. Fingerprint/photo IDs embedded in chips in the cards (like the new passports) may help.

oges

17th January 2006, 08:35 AM

maybe we should just get ear tags like cattle ... MOOOO!! :D

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 08:40 AM

The people who they want to catch can easily replicate or obtain a fake id anyway.

Next time you sign a credit card invoice see if the person actually checks your signature anyway.

All the card debate will do is waste more money, good for those who will make the money producing them etc.

And while it's in the headlines watch all the sneaky things that the gov gets through un-noticed.

craigb

17th January 2006, 09:10 AM

maybe we should just get ear tags like cattle ... MOOOO!! :D

Nah, bar code tattooed on the forehead is the way to go I reckon. :rolleyes:

doug the slug

17th January 2006, 09:32 AM

And while it's in the headlines watch all the sneaky things that the gov gets through un-noticed.

yep they love a nice smokescreen to hide behind while they do sneaky stuff. I can just see little johnny in the partyroom asking "how can we get this one through without it being noticed?" Someone will reply "just start up the australia card debate again." http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Iain

17th January 2006, 10:27 AM

Nah, bar code tattooed on the forehead is the way to go I reckon. :rolleyes:
Wouldn't work, smile and it changes:rolleyes:
Or get someone like Stoppers who could fit on enough barcodes for everyone on this forum:p
Just get everyone enlisted in the Armed Forces and all outsiders would be buggered then, except on a Wednesday.

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 10:36 AM

The basic problem is human nature. There will always be those who feel the need for violence due to their life experience. Who is to say that a good wholesome caring life is the way it should be anyway, we just decide that we will make rules and religions to try and make it so.

But you will never get everyone to abide by rules. Can't even get footy and soccer suporters to agree to to disagry lol.

All we can hope is to do what your mind considers right and hope others have the same views.

Life involves a lot of luck. For example the guy who rips off your house does so because he needs to survive in his idea of life, crime is not wrong to him. How do you contend with those who have no sense of fairness?

Shedhand

17th January 2006, 10:50 AM

"I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
So long and thanks for all the fish." :confused::confused::confused:

Benny, go back to the shed!!:D:D:D

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 10:54 AM

"I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
So long and thanks for all the fish." :confused::confused::confused:

Benny, go back to the shed!!:D:D:D

So long and thanks for all the fish is what the Dolphins said as they returned to their planet. But who cares? :D :D :D

(hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy)

Shedhand

17th January 2006, 11:00 AM

So long and thanks for all the fish is what the Dolphins said as they returned to their planet. But who cares? :D :D :D

(hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy)A classic hey? No Iwas querying the apathy. :D I always thought cowboys were gay!:D

Iain

17th January 2006, 11:03 AM

And no one picked up one the Wednesday, bit slow out there.........

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 11:03 AM

A classic hey? No Iwas querying the apathy. :D I always thought cowboys were gay!:D

(I do care but don't let on, ok?)

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 11:10 AM

And no one picked up one the Wednesday, bit slow out there.........

I assume everyone new that to attack on a Wednesday would be the way to go cos everyone is on a sportie?

Same as attacking Malaysia on a Friday morning when they are all at prayer.

silentC

17th January 2006, 11:11 AM

Didn't Bob Hawke try and get this through back in the 80's?

In some ways, it wouldn't be a bad idea. Not everyone has a drivers license. Can't see how it would help prevent terrorism though. I'm in the don't care camp.

Iain

17th January 2006, 11:18 AM

I assume everyone new that to attack on a Wednesday would be the way to go cos everyone is on a sportie?

Same as attacking Malaysia on a Friday morning when they are all at prayer.
Almost right, after lunch, well used to be.
Just got a bloody great fright, typing away and a bloody great spider just rapalled down between me and the computer and went in behind my desk.
I suppose on the waterfront it could be anytime as the wharfies would need to organise a protest delegation, just stroll past while they are doing it or pay a union fee:rolleyes:

craigb

17th January 2006, 11:22 AM

How about they just insert an RFID into each one of us? Then they could have scanners everywhere and they'd know where we are AT ALL TIMES.

I'm sure that creepy walking cadaver Ruddock would love the idea.

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 11:26 AM

Are you a spider crusher or do you move them outside to take care of insects? Usually the ones that drop in like that explore the sole of my shoe in great detail.

Just reminded me of an incident in Malaysia. Two of the 1RAR army troops stagerring back to base decided to stop at the Mosque and steal all the left hand thongs and drop them in the monny. The next day we had a special parade to avert an "international Incident" and the whole 1RAR Contingent were flown home that day as they would not identify the culprits.
(The locals were Hopping Mad)

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 11:29 AM

Don't be fooled, most of us are trackable as is from out credit cards, mobile phones etc. Not easy to disappear unless you really are a Luddite.

Even when online on a woodwork forum, perhaps??????

Iain

17th January 2006, 11:38 AM

Studley 2436

17th January 2006, 12:38 PM

Then the best reason for it is Peter Garrett is against it

Well, maybe not the best reason, but a quite good one.
Yeah but wasn't Garrett in favour of Keatings Australia card way back when.

I was so opposed to the old card but having at the time a feral anger against the government that is Hawke Keating, and their lofty predisposition that was most of the reason maybe.

For a card now I can't see much point. There are lots of ways to ID people from passports to Drivers Licences Medicare Cards and so on and on.

London Bombers would not have been stopped by an ID card. SO not than I am against it I just can't see that there is any real reason to have one.

Studley

bennylaird

17th January 2006, 12:43 PM

Why not put the money it would cost into more police to handle the everyday crime scene. Can't see how you would plan to avoid terrorism anyway as they are cowards and only attack undefended targets.

Skew ChiDAMN!!

17th January 2006, 05:22 PM

I see no point to it whatsoever.

Stopping terrorist acticities? Please, don't make me laugh. What dim-wit would believe that? It's just another (poor) excuse to reintroduce Hawkies proposal. Which, I'd like to point out, was suggested way before current terrorist hype.

It'd have little effect on crime, professional criminals aren't stupid enough to carry an authentic driver's license, let alone an ID card. At best, it'd make ID'ing the "dumb delinquents" a bit easier. At worst it provides another step closer to an Orwellian future. In reality, it's just another step in the govt's apparent aim of making the individual do the paperwork for them.

The only way to positively ID anybody would be to have a DNA/fingerprint bank for all citizens... and the day that happens I'll emigrate to a more liberal country. Like Iraq.

All in all, it's a bit like the gun laws. Makes it easier for the gov't to keep an eye on the sheep, but the wolves do not obey the rules of the flock. :p

Waldo

17th January 2006, 05:38 PM

G'day,

As with all things - if you've got nothing to hide why worry about it?

As always it's the civil @%#^*%$ libertarians :mad: who scream blue murder, but then they always do, if it was up to them everything would be banned and it'd be anachy on the streets.

Will it stop terrorism? Nope, and nothing will. Will it stop someone flogging ID? Probably. Is it needed? I don't know.

Like I said 1st up, if you're a law abiding citizen it won't worry you.

Iain

17th January 2006, 05:46 PM

Civil LIbertarians are the biggest bunch of hippocrites that God ever put breath into, wait until something happens next door to them and it's a different rant.
Bit like the dedicated cop haters, who do they call when their car gets pinched:D :D :D :D
And getting a little off topic, that lunatic feminist group, Women Against Rape, how many have you met who are for it?????

Termite

17th January 2006, 05:53 PM

And getting a little off topic, that lunatic feminist group, Women Against Rape, how many have you met who are for it?????
You're dead right, no woman has raped me in 61 years and I gave them plenty of oportunity. :rolleyes:

redwood

17th January 2006, 06:06 PM

I hate the socialist workers. they want you to go to counceling for everything. little johny leaves his lunch at home -- its ok just go an get see the councelor. sprains his ankle in the play ground, ohhh poor dear, you need to see a councelor. goes to school and tell the teacher daddy got a splinter at work yesterday - oooh noooo! thats terrible , you must see the councelor imedeatly... whats the world comming to:eek:

Waldo

17th January 2006, 06:20 PM

G'day,

I can see one use for the Australia Card - to stop the dole bludgers claiming (to those honest people on the dole, no offence meant) benefits under different names.

"I hate the socialist workers. they want you to go to counceling for everything" - in the words of Ted Bullpit, "Someone should bloody well shoot 'em!"

"Civil LIbertarians are the biggest bunch of hippocrites" - in the words of Ted Bullpit, "Someone should bloody well shoot 'em!"

Oh dear! I don't like may people do I? :D

Skew ChiDAMN!!

17th January 2006, 06:50 PM

I can see one use for the Australia Card - to stop the dole bludgers claiming (to those honest people on the dole, no offence meant) benefits under different names.

Huh? Aren't applications already checked against your tax file no? If people are already running around with duplicate TFN's, what's to stop 'em from running around with multiple ID cards? How will changing the name of a bit of paper make any difference?

"Civil LIbertarians are the biggest bunch of hippocrites" - in the words of Ted Bullpit, "Someone should bloody well shoot 'em!"

Civil libertarians may be a pita but don't forget that, unlike the US, the rights of the individual are not defined in the Australian constitution (which basically deals with the rights of the govt bodies) and are only regulated by common law.

We don't even have an effective watchdog, our system seems to rely on the "squeaky wheel" principle.

But it suits me fine, just as it is. :D

oges

17th January 2006, 07:18 PM

in the words of Ted Bullpit, "Someone should bloody well shoot 'em!"
Not to be picky or anything, but it was usually "someone should blow bloody 'insert subject' up" :D

Rusty

17th January 2006, 07:24 PM

I'm a law-abiding citizen, mostly, and where my behaviour does conflict with the law I believe it's the law that requires modifying. I also have something to hide: my life. It's mine, and you can't look at it. Funny how people's definition of freedom seems to be so flexible, and so selectively applied.

So anyway, no. No surprises there, I'm sure.

Regards,
Rusty.

DavidG

17th January 2006, 07:45 PM

Do a cost analysis of what we will gain versus what it costs then spend the money on the health system. It needs it.:p

Waldo

17th January 2006, 08:12 PM

Not to be picky or anything, but it was usually "someone should blow bloody 'insert subject' up" :D

G'day Oges,

Thanks for the clarification. Someone should bring back Kingswood Country on TV, the best Australain show by far.

oges

17th January 2006, 08:21 PM

Got the best of DVD pack for my b'day, sadly 13 episodes is not enough.

Unfortunately I dont think it would ever be back on tv, it wouldnt make it past the political correctness BS we have these days

Waldo

17th January 2006, 08:27 PM

Got the best of DVD pack for my b'day, sadly 13 episodes is not enough.

Love to be able to get my hands on them.

Unfortunately I dont think it would ever be back on tv, it wouldnt make it past the political correctness BS we have these days

Blame the bunch of pinkopoofterleftwingwogs for that one.
:D :eek:

redwood

17th January 2006, 08:29 PM

Blame the bunch of pinkopoofterleftwingwogs for that one.

more like the pinkolezoleftwingjackbootbrigade ;)

Iain

17th January 2006, 08:29 PM

Neville??????

redwood

17th January 2006, 08:35 PM

Neville??????

he`s out in the garden;)

Iain

17th January 2006, 08:37 PM

he`s out in the garden;)
Giving everyone dark looks:rolleyes:

redwood

17th January 2006, 08:40 PM

Giving everyone dark looks:rolleyes:

it would be a black day if ever he was removed:o

fxst

17th January 2006, 09:05 PM

Got the best of DVD pack for my b'day, sadly 13 episodes is not enough.

Brett Just make a copy of the dvd and you'll have 26 episodes :D :D :D
Pete

AlexS

17th January 2006, 10:32 PM

Like I said 1st up, if you're a law abiding citizen it won't worry you.
Well, perhaps it wouldn't worry me if I was sure we had a law abiding government.

E. maculata

17th January 2006, 11:39 PM

Vote early & vote often eh Wongo?
BTW jackboots are usually associated with facism, not socialism. And is a socialist worker? A union member? A worker from Cuba? PAYG person whom is a socialist?
Not being a spelling nazi, but confusing terms of reference is plain confusing.

This is all just a smokescreen, never fails to amuse me how many times they get away with this old double feint.:rolleyes: and everyone still falls for it over & over & over, there probably never was going to be and never will be from the present mob any such thing, it's about blindsiding all of us with something else. The biggest mistake most people make is in the belief politicians are stupid, they're not they are generally very smart individuals, whom mentally can run rings around most us normals, and they hunt in packs.

DanP

19th January 2006, 11:38 AM

Shedhand

19th January 2006, 12:00 PM

The biggest mistake most people make is in the belief politicians are stupid, they're not they are generally very smart individuals, whom mentally can run rings around most us normals, and they hunt in packs.No mate, 'smart' politicians don't last. It's the cunning ones who do. Much to our detriment.:cool:

Waldo

19th January 2006, 12:04 PM

G'day,

DanP, I fully agree with you.

Termite

19th January 2006, 12:15 PM

I agree with Dan about there being no valid reasons against an ID card, if it is going to be accepted as an actual Identity Card.

How it will be accepted is another question. Lets face it, Australia is a country that does not even recognise it's own passports as prime proof of identity. So what use is an ID card going to be.

Try putting over your passport when you want to open a bank account or get a licence, Ha, they'll ask you for something else like an electricity bill or some other real proof of identity. :rolleyes:

The government's track record regarding identity methods brings very much to mind things like "Couldn't organise a chook raffle" or "Couldn't organise a .... in a ....... with a fist full of $100 dollar notes".

Iain

19th January 2006, 01:11 PM

I can understand .... being edited out but why the ladies workplace, ....... is not a dirty word, or is it?
Getting off ....... topic again;)

Grunt

19th January 2006, 01:22 PM

I have been saying for years that we should have an ID card that everyone over 15 years old has to carry. Think how much easier it would be if a natural disaster such as the tsunami were to hit, to identify people killed. Or car accidents, or any number of things. Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).

Excuse me for being cynical but I would expect law enforcment officers to want to have more power.
Are you going to arrest people for not carring one?

Maybe not today but as the government gets more paranoid, they'll instruct you do so in the future.

I have not yet and don't think I will hear a sensible and coherent argument against the ID card.

A study of history will suggest that enforcing people to carry ids and the recent enactment of laws that diminish our civil liberties have a way of being turned around and used against us.

In the '70s, the Charlie Court government in WA enacted a law (54b) that made it illegal for groups of more than 3 people to congregate in public without a permit. It was designed to stop the Hari Krishnas from harassing people. 12 months later the the Court government used this law to instruct the police to arrest anyone who attended a union meeting.

Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).

I must be a idiot then. :(

Shedhand

19th January 2006, 01:34 PM

Excuse me for being cynical but I would expect law enforcment officers to want to have more power.
Are you going to arrest people for not carring one?

Maybe not today but as the government gets more paranoid, they'll instruct you do so in the future.

A study of history will suggest that enforcing people to carry ids and the recent enactment of laws that diminish our civil liberties have a way of being turned around and used against us.

In the '70s, the Charlie Court government in WA enacted a law (54b) that made it illegal for groups of more than 3 people to congregate in public without a permit. It was designed to stop the Hari Krishnas from harassing people. 12 months later the the Court government used this law to instruct the police to arrest anyone who attended a union meeting.

I must be a idiot then. :(Greenie for that Grunt. Agree wholeheartedly. In any case I don't recall terrorism being touted as a reason for introducing an Oz Card. IMHO its a simple answer to the vexed question of identity proof when its needed -as in natural disasters. Honest people should have no problems with it. I'm not interested in redneck conspiracy theorists. We don't live under a repressive regime (yet, though Ruddock would like us to). Our system of government lets us toss out governments who do things we don't like. Instead of grizzling about it we should get out and make much more considered votes than we do. The biggest danger australia faces is the repressive beliefs and policies of the god-bothering extreme right who have infiltrated governments - both state and federal. Rant off!!:o

Gumby

19th January 2006, 01:56 PM

G'day,

DanP, I fully agree with you.

me too ;)

Are you going to arrest people for not carring one?

Of course !

A study of history will suggest that enforcing people to carry ids and the recent enactment of laws that diminish our civil liberties have a way of being turned around and used against us.

Too vague. Please give some examples.

12 months later the the Court government used this law to instruct the police to arrest anyone who attended a union meeting.

Fair enough too. If we had no unions, we'd have less trouble and more jobs.

I must be a idiot then. :(

We already knew that.

Grunt

19th January 2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Grunt

Are you going to arrest people for not carring one?
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Of course !

Hope you don't forget yours when you go down to the shop.

Too vague. Please give some examples.

Nazi Germany, Russia

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Grunt
12 months later the the Court government used this law to instruct the police to arrest anyone who attended a union meeting.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Fair enough too. If we had no unions, we'd have less trouble and more jobs.

Except if they decide to use the law to arrest anyone who gathered to protest about the government. The point is laws like this seem harmless but in fact they are insidious and can be used against the populus in all manner of unexpected ways.

We already knew that.

Yes but I can spell insidious.

craigb

19th January 2006, 02:38 PM

bennylaird

19th January 2006, 02:55 PM

We haff vays of getting you to haff your cards!!!!!!!

Slap! Slap!

Stop slapping me while I'm giving you orders!!!!!!!

E. maculata

19th January 2006, 04:07 PM

Nobody is contemplating the whatifs, what if an extreme roght-wing government gets in (is concieveable with the way spin doctorsdoctor things)
Whatif a large multi-national concern gets a contract to administrate such things, remember computers don't use this information people do, people with the same greedy, small-mindeness, and avarious ways that we see everyday in all walks, look at AWB fer chris' sake. Nah even if it was for real (it's not, look at what else is being put throught the senate atm, it's exactly the same paths that all past facists regimes and so-called "communist" represives have taken as Grunt boy stated, he's one smart pooch that.
It's dangerous to put your life in politicians or even the law enforcement (sorry Dan, but we both know it's true) agencies hands, cause they are only made up of people, same as us not super-ethical, but normal Blokes & Blokettes who will use any argument to justify an action.

Sorry this is not conjecture as I remember being a non- influential teenage union member in QLD during the JOH years, and while not ever proven it is highly suspected that members of the government and other authorities had people "disappeared" if they could be a problem. Check the newspaper articles from the time then the royal commission stuff.

Civil Liberterians are not anything more than people who have the conviction to stand up and fight for what they consider to be morally& ethically correct, they put themselves and their livlihoods in jeopardy everytime they publicly denounce popular opinion, can we say the same?

craigb

19th January 2006, 04:14 PM

Civil Liberterians are not anything more than people who have the conviction to stand up and fight for what they consider to be morally& ethically correct, they put themselves and their livlihoods in jeopardy everytime they publicly denounce popular opinion, can we say the same?

Well said Bruce.

silentC

19th January 2006, 04:22 PM

I don't know. I tend towards the conservative side of things. I'm in favour of a tough stance on crime, terrorism, illegal immigration etc. I'm not without compassion and I'm a bit sceptical that any government ever has our best interests at heart.

However, I do believe that a lot of the problems we are facing at the moment are occuring because we have gone soft on a number of things. A crack down is required every now and then to put things back on an even kilter. I doubt that an ID card is going to help at all in that regard though, for many of the reasons mentioned above. Neither can I see that it will be a tremendous invasion of our civil liberties.

If you earn an income (legally) they already know who you are. If you don't you probably have a social security number. I can't see an ID card being any more revealing than these two things. Whether a future government might or might not abuse it at some point in the future is speculation. Perhaps they might - is that enough reason to kybosh the idea? I suppose there are a great many things that a future fascist dictatorship might use against us - including the defence force and the police.

At the end of the day, there are pros and cons. Perhaps the potential cons outweigh the known pros?

DavidG

19th January 2006, 04:36 PM

I have not yet and don't think I will hear a sensible and coherent argument against the ID card.Cost.

Think how much easier it would be if a natural disaster such as the tsunami were to hit, to identify people killed. Or car accidents, or any number of things. I am no more likely to be carrying my ID card than I am my drivers licence. Invalid argument.

Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).Invalid argument - Emotional.

The only people with something to fear from being identified are those who deserve to have their liberties removed.My g...d. This from authority. NO wonder we are worried.

If you do nothing wrong, you will never have your DNA see the light of day.Until the Gov has a new interest in it. (disease profiling. Reduce pensioners.

Generally, so-far, there is NO valid argument in favour of a card that justifies the cost.

Please provide valid arguments. No emotions.

1. Identify terrorists - Invalid. Terrorists use their real ID.

2. Identify the dead and injured in a disaster. Invalid. Card may not be on owner. Still have to do all tests. ps How many times would this be required???

3 Identify victims of crime. Invalid see 2.

4 Identify illegal immigrant workers. Valid but at what cost.$

silentC

19th January 2006, 04:38 PM

Regarding civil libertarians, I think there is a rabid ratbag element there but it's like everything else - you need a balance and these guys are there to oppose the hardliners at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle, we should have enough control to be secure and enough freedom to be happy.

Except for that guy on the pedestrian council (Harold Scrooby). We could do without him. :rolleyes:

Grunt

19th January 2006, 04:55 PM

However, I do believe that a lot of the problems we are facing at the moment are occuring because we have gone soft on a number of things.

I believe a lot of our problems are due to certain decisions that our govenment made in blindly following the U.S.

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

silentC

19th January 2006, 04:59 PM

I wasn't really thinking of terrorism. I don't believe we have a problem with terrorism in this country either. There have been one or two bombs over the years and some people accused of planning things. No-one has attempted to run a container ship into the Opera House or anything yet though.

I was thinking more about crime, gang related violence and so on. You know, boring day to day stuff.

Andy Mac

19th January 2006, 05:01 PM

I say no. We have enough in the way of cards to carry around to prove or disprove who we are, and all of them are open to forgery anyway. A bit the like saying that by banning all firearms less people will be shot...maybe by law abiding folk, but the criminal element will still obtain one. Does any learned forum member know the stats on firearm-related crime before and after the nationwide ban on firearms? My bet is it hasn't changed a thing.

Cheers,

Bodgy

19th January 2006, 05:09 PM

[quote=silentC]

If you earn an income (legally) they already know who you are. If you don't you probably have a social security number. I can't see an ID card being any more revealing than these two things.

Why do they want it then?

I'd make two points, firstly it is a lot easier to lose a right or a freedom than to re-gain one. Anyone fancy their chances of getting rid of the ID card if it is abused?

Secondly, whats the rationale? Anti-Terrorism? Oh please! Remember Hawke's attempt to introduce the Australia card? As if an ID card would make any impact on terrorism. Would the 'occupation' field say 'loony, rag-head suicide bomber'?

I think this is just another factor in Government getting bigger and wanting more control over the punters. We are already atrociously over regulated in OZ. Having to carry and produce an ID card is just another freedom out the window and another intrusion by the Government - left or right - they all want more power.

silentC

19th January 2006, 05:18 PM

Why do they want it then?
I don't know and don't pretend to. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say that someone in the public service has been waiting for a good opportunity to dust the idea off and try again. They probably have entirely different reasons for wanting it to what most people are assuming here.

Still on the fence. Don't care if they do or they don't.

Auld Bassoon

19th January 2006, 05:35 PM

Well, perhaps it wouldn't worry me if I was sure we had a law abiding government.

Of course we do! Remember who makes or repeals the laws?....

Gumby

19th January 2006, 05:36 PM

Nazi Germany, Russia

.

That's grasping at stwas. Hardly good examples - they've gone. Got any in a in a democratic country like ours.

I believe a lot of our problems are due to certain decisions that our govenment made in blindly following the U.S.

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

Mate, if you think terroists would leave us alone if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq with the US, then you are dreaming. They want ALL western civilisation gone! The left wings, the greenies, the do-gooders and the far right. The lot. To them we are infidels and nothing more than pond scum. You have to stop them somewhere. Better over there than here.

All this civil rights stuff just leaves loopholes for people who want to do harm to us to jump through. They must be absolutley pissing themselves laughing.

Grunt

19th January 2006, 05:38 PM

And by the way, Nazi Germany and the old Russian communist state have gone. In case you hadn't noticed.

Yes, but it was quite unpleasant for some while they were going on.

Mate, if you think terroists would leave us alone if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq with the US, then you are dreaming. They want ALL western civilisation gone! The left wings, the greenies, the do-gooders and the far right. The lot. To them we are infidels and nothing more than pond scum. You have to stop them somewhere. Better over there than here.

Explain why Canada doesn't have the same concerns and out and out threats on terrorism that we do.

DavidG

19th January 2006, 05:39 PM

If you want a reason try about $700.00 to $800.00 per man women and child covered by the system plus ongoing costs and business compliance costs.

ie Less tools, more tax.

Do a proper cost analysis and I will follow the outcome.

E. maculata

19th January 2006, 05:40 PM

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

Hail the mighty Grunt, He's in the zone today, Grunt for P.M.:D
I've always found Kiwis, Aussies, the Irish, Scots and Canadians to be very similar peoples, I've known and worked with quite a few and the comraderies is almost instant, however many others have disturbed me as I fear that which I cannot comprehend.

Waldo

19th January 2006, 05:40 PM

G'day,

Can I wade in here again and say some of the posts are getting a bit personal by way of attacks against fellow woodies. :(

Gumby

19th January 2006, 05:43 PM

Explain why Canada doesn't have the same concerns and out and out threats on terrorism that we do.

please show me where you get the information that Canada doesn't have concerns about terrorism.

Have you flown in there lately ?

Gumby

19th January 2006, 05:44 PM

G'day,

Can I wade in here again and say some of the posts are getting a bit personal by way of attacks against fellow woodies. :(

Chris, don't mistake good debate for personal attacks. that's not we are on about here.

Auld Bassoon

19th January 2006, 05:46 PM

I have not yet and don't think I will hear a sensible and coherent argument against the ID card.

I have been saying for years that we should have an ID card that everyone over 15 years old has to carry. Think how much easier it would be if a natural disaster such as the tsunami were to hit, to identify people killed. Or car accidents, or any number of things. Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).

But then I also say the same of DNA. Everyone should be DNA profiled at about 2 years of age and their DNA filed. You could even put the DNA profile in code on the ID card. Added security.

The only people with something to fear from being identified are those who deserve to have their liberties removed. If you do nothing wrong, you will never have your DNA see the light of day. I see DNA profiling as a bigger deterrent to hideous sex crimes and offenders than the poxy sentences handed down by judges. If someone is caught after they are profiled then they obviously have to be removed from the community and locked up forever, because they obviously can't help themselves.

Dan

Dan,

I broadly agree with everything that you've said.

As well, there is the small (not!) matter of having linked medical records which such a system would facilitate. Currently, there is very little (if any) linkage between the records of any given person and the various GPs and/or specialists/hospitals/clinics that they might have presented to.

In a previous life I was with an IT consulting firm, doing a lot of work with NSW, Vic, Qld, etc Health Authorities and various organisational subdivisions - and the issue of a coherent linkage was always present, but unresolvable because of current privacy laws. This represents an annual waste of billions of $, and regrettably often less than ideally effective treatment.

As an aside, I note that the National ID system being championed in the UK by messrs Blair & co has fallen foul of the House of Lords.

I don't know why people have such an anti-ID fixation. Virtually every European (mainland) country has had one for really quite some time.

We are all members of a society, and as such should be quite willing to be identifiable individuals in that society.

Hops off barrel and heads for a cold one:p