Loose wall switch

[ErrolFlynn]

Bought a unit a few years ago. Progressively getting it put into order. I guess it’s probably about 30 years old. There is a light switch on the same wall as the kitchen sink (brick wall, and tiled). About 600mm from the sink. Seems too close to the water for me, but that’s the way it is.

The switch has always been a bit loose to the touch. One day I removed the little plastic tabs and attempted to tighten the screws on the switch. One was tight. The other screw just spun and did nothing. I left it for another day. That was today.

Removing the switch I can see one rawl plug has gone into the brickwork, and the asbestos sheet hasn’t gotten in the way as it happens. Seems sound. The other (loose) end of the switch was something else.

There was a neat hole drilled through the asbestos where the rawl plug had been inserted, and get this, only air behind it. No wonder the switch was loose. Sure, there’s some solid wall in there, but it’s about 15-20 mm from the asbestos sheet. I don’t think the rawl plug actually touched the brickwork.

It’s likely that whoever fitted this in the first place should have used a mounting box for the switch, and maybe I should install one to do this correctly. There’s no way I’m going to risk destroying perfectly good tiles that I’ll never be able to replace. So, that’s not going to happen.

Here’s my plan. Shoot it down if you can come up with something better.

I have some tile cement (powder) left over from a tiling job I was doing. I’m thinking of getting a new rawl plug, drilling a hole through the thing at the far end of the plug, and pushing something through it (eg. a nail). I’ll place the rawl plug (and nail) into precisely the correct position. That’ll be awkward but not impossible. And then I’ll mix up some of my tile cement (glue, as it’s called) that will be a fairly stiff consistency and shove it around the rawl plug and so fill the air gap. Ramming it in there. When set I’ll refit the switch. Presumably, the nail will stop the plug from turning.

I’m assuming the tile cement will be tough enough to prevent the nail from moving. I’d use some cement powder (ie. as in Portland) if I had any. Any thoughts?

[China]

I would use something like Plasti-bond.

[jack620]

I've dealt with a similar issue a few times. I cut a rectangle of timber about 50x25x10 and glue it to the rear side of the plasterboard/cement sheet on the offending side such that it covers the screw hole. Use a small clamp to hold it in place while the glue sets. Then I use a wood screw to affix that side of the switch plate into the timber. It might be easier for you to cut a piece that's a snug fit in the 10-20mm gap between the AC sheet and wall. Or use a wedge to hold the timber in place while the glue sets.

[ErrolFlynn]

Thanks China, Jack. Both are useful ideas.

I was subsequently thinking that my own idea (ie. tile glue) may not be up to the mark. I seem to recall that tile glue tends to be a little soft, which may not work so well.

[aldav]

Jack's on the money. :2tsup: You are correct that tile adhesive would just crumble. If you can't get a clamp on it you can create tension between the timber and cement sheet/plaster board using a screw to pull them together. This same method works very well for fixing bathroom fittings that have become detached from sheet walls.

[NCArcher]

Just use something like an Anka Plug Anka Plugs | Ablefix (https://www.ablefix.com.au/product-category/fasteners/plasterboard-anchors/anka-plugs/)
Thats probably what was in there in the first place but it has dropped down when it was unscrewed.

[ErrolFlynn]

Just use something like an Anka Plug

It was definitely a rawl plug that was in there. I'm not sure an Anka Plug would get sufficient 'bite' into the asbestos to prevent it from turning, as it would on plasterboard. Thanks for the suggestion, but as primitive as Jack's piece of wood idea is, I think it's on the money. It'll take a while for the glue to set but it'll be solid in the end.

[FrodoOne]

Bought a unit a few years ago. Progressively getting it put into order. I guess it’s probably about 30 years old. There is a light switch on the same wall as the kitchen sink (brick wall, and tiled). About 600mm from the sink. Seems too close to the water for me, but that’s the way it is.

The switch has always been a bit loose to the touch. One day I removed the little plastic tabs and attempted to tighten the screws on the switch. One was tight. The other screw just spun and did nothing. I left it for another day. That was today.

Nomenclature is a wonderful thing.

In Australia, light "switches" are installed in Wall-Plates and it is these "Wall-Plates" which are attached to walls, in various ways.
The mounting screws of these Wall-Plates are "deep set", so that they cannot be touched with an adult finger but it is also required that they be covered with a "Mounting Screw Cover" which the OP seems to have described as "little plastic tabs".


Removing the switch I can see one rawl plug has gone into the brickwork, and the asbestos sheet hasn’t gotten in the way as it happens. Seems sound. The other (loose) end of the switch was something else.

There was a neat hole drilled through the asbestos where the rawl plug had been inserted, and get this, only air behind it. No wonder the switch was loose. Sure, there’s some solid wall in there, but it’s about 15-20 mm from the asbestos sheet. I don’t think the rawl plug actually touched the brickwork.

Without a photograph, it is somewhat difficult to visualise the situation described.
It seems that there may be a substrate of "brick-work" over which some form of "cement" sheeting has been applied. (Whether it contains Asbestos is another matter.)


It’s likely that whoever fitted this in the first place should have used a mounting box for the switch, and maybe I should install one to do this correctly.

"Mounting Boxes" are not generally used in Australia, except in soley Masonry Walls (e. g.Just a moment... (https://www.bunnings.com.au/deta-wall-mounting-box-with-adjustable-lugs_p4430374) )


Here’s my plan. Shoot it down if you can come up with something better.

I have some tile cement (powder) left over from a tiling job I was doing. I’m thinking of getting a new rawl plug, drilling a hole through the thing at the far end of the plug, and pushing something through it (eg. a nail). I’ll place the rawl plug (and nail) into precisely the correct position. That’ll be awkward but not impossible. And then I’ll mix up some of my tile cement (glue, as it’s called) that will be a fairly stiff consistency and shove it around the rawl plug and so fill the air gap. Ramming it in there. When set I’ll refit the switch. Presumably, the nail will stop the plug from turning.

I’m assuming the tile cement will be tough enough to prevent the nail from moving. I’d use some cement powder (ie. as in Portland) if I had any. Any thoughts?
I would strongly advise against that which you propose.

Epoxy Resins are your friend in such cases.

You need to install a "fitting" ("rawl plug" or otherwise) into a solid substrate, and use a sufficiently long enough screw to "engage with" that "fitting".
The "fitting" can be installed in even the most crumbly substrate by using a liquid Epoxy Resin , such as Just a moment... (https://www.bunnings.com.au/selleys-24ml-araldite-5-minute-epoxy-glue_p1230054)
or
an Epoxy Putty, such as Just a moment... (https://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=metal+epoxy+putty&sort=BoostOrder&page=1) (BUT, do not use "Builders Bog".)

[ErrolFlynn]

In Australia, light "switches" are installed in Wall-Plates
Not in this part of Australia. At least, at that time. Perhaps a few corners were cut by the electrician. Perhaps the work wasn't done by an electrician. Country town. Limited tradies at the time of the build, perhaps. Look at me. I'm doing this repair and I'm not an electrician.

This would be the second switch I'm replacing. In both, the brickwork has been hacked away to provide access. The two rawl plugs fitted in the first were good and the switch was replaced with no trouble. Hence my posting - looking for ideas. Actually, the mounting is rather annoying as the rawl plugs weren't installed parallel to the ground. Drill bits tend to wander. And as a result, the switch remains on a slight angle.


a "Mounting Screw Cover" which the OP seems to have described as "little plastic tabs".

Yeah, you're quite right. I used confusing nomenclature, I guess. Not too confusing, though. When I implied that the switch might have been 30 years old that must have provided a clue as to my meaning. I doubt facias were generally available for switches back then.


Whether it contains Asbestos is another matter.
Old house. Kitchen. There's no doubt - it'll be asbestos.


Epoxy Resins are your friend in such cases.
An interesting idea. I don't have any experience with it except in watching Forged in Fire on TV. It seems like a very messy substance. With that in mind, I'm still inclined to go with Jack's idea of glueing a piece of wood in there. But the next time I'm in a hardware store I'll have a look to see what they have in their range of epoxy type products.

[Marc]

I am with epoxy putty.
Or epoxy a piece of wood to whatever is nearby.

Another one ... is it possible to cut a piece of 7mm fibro, the right size to fit diagonally through the opening, turn around and glue against the existing asbestos sheet by using a string to pull ... then once solid, cut the right hole size for the switch and screws?

Of course you will need to disconnect everything and then reconnect through the 'new' hole.

[jack620]

Not in this part of Australia.

I just twigged you are in Canberra. I cut my renovator's teeth doing-up a 1948 cottage in Canberra.
It was rendered solid brick and all GPOs and switch plates were fitted to steel boxes set into the walls.
My place had an asbestos ceiling in the laundry and asbestos soffit linings. If your place is 30 years old it could have asbestos. I'd be surprised if it did, but it would be wise to assume it does.

[ErrolFlynn]

Ah, yes. I am in Canberra. Though, the unit I was referring to is a property in Eden, NSW.

I’ve no idea what the building industry was like in Eden when the block of units I’m referring to was built. The structure seems sound (it looks sound) but some things have surprised me.

It’s on the coast but nothing had been galvanised. There are rust marks coming from various fittings. I wonder why they didn’t use stainless. You can see and hear the waves crashing. People didn’t seem to think of corrosion.

At the last strata AGM the issue of concrete cancer came up because it’s one of our issues. We had a quote. A huge amount of money to repair, but the discussion shifted along the lines of: I know someone who can fix that. All it needs is a bit of chipping and paint. She’ll be right. Rather than engage a company that knows what they’re doing the cheapest option is being considered. No decision on that and the rust continues.

I wonder if those attitudes of ‘anything will do’ just get it done went into the build all those years ago and that’s why I’ve got rawl plugs instead of neatly mounted steel box set into the wall. I know them and have used them myself. So, I was surprised (but not surprised) not to see any. Whoever was the sparky, despite it being a bit rough around the edges everything seems to work. So, it must have met minimum standards.

PS. I see you're from Melbourne. I used to live in Warrandyte before coming here.

[jack620]

I’ve no idea what the building industry was like in Eden when the block of units I’m referring to was built.


The same as everywhere else in Oz I imagine- dreadful. :(

[FrodoOne]

While i wrote "In Australia, light "switches" are installed in Wall-Plates"
your reply was "


Not in this part of Australia. At least, at that time. Perhaps a few corners were cut by the electrician. Perhaps the work wasn't done by an electrician. Country town. Limited tradies at the time of the build, perhaps.

I still believe that all light switches in Australia have been installed in Wall-Plates, since before WWII.
Please provide photographs of anything which you have which may contradict that statement.

[Marc]

Ha ha ... you can change forum but not stripes. :D

[droog]

While i wrote "In Australia, light "switches" are installed in Wall-Plates"
your reply was "


I still believe that all light switches in Australia have been installed in Wall-Plates, since before WWII.
Please provide photographs of anything which you have which may contradict that statement.


Before the modern style switches and gpo’s the fittings were mounted on base plates, no wall plate was used.
eg, this style fitting.
Clipsal Heritage Range (https://www.classicswitches.com.au/classic-electric-heritage-range/)

Also a lot of the early flat plate outlets were installed on the wide skirting boards of the era.
With lathe and plaster used up until the 1950’s wall plates generally did not fit with some of the construction methods.

[jack620]

Ha ha ... you can change forum but not stripes. :D

He’s definitely not off to a good start.

[ErrolFlynn]

Please provide photographs of anything which you have which may contradict that statement.

Okay, if I remember. I'm heading off to the seaside this weekend, probably. You may have to wait a few days until I get there and then get around to trying to fix it (with my block of wood or epoxy). It would be such a joke on me if I spotted some kind of steel mounting box embedded amongst the bricks. Ha ha.

[ErrolFlynn]

Ha ha ... you can change forum but not stripes. :D

Are you talkin ame?

[Marc]

No Mr Flynn, obviously not you but Frodo who has a habit of pugnacious verbosity. :U

[ErrolFlynn]

Okay.

Since being rescued by Neil (I had been a Renovate Forum member for a few years on the other site) and seeing your name here, it occurred to me that you are the same person who held the name "Marc" in the old forum. A different avatar was used. It looked like he was driving a dozer or similar.

With forums, usernames have to be unique. I managed to keep mine; that was pretty much guaranteed, but there are a lot of Marcs out there in the world. It's just that it would surprise me if he didn't come across.

[Marc]

Same same. Actually started here 20 years or so ago.
In the other photo I am driving my old ski boat.
And that is my name.
May be should change it ... how about Tacitus?

[ErrolFlynn]

Thanks for that. I'd suggest you keep it true. Though, when I first started to use the web people said never use your real name. I didn't have a clue as to what to use. But I lived in Flynn. So, I chose that. Then I thought people might think that's my name. So added Errol in front of it to stop people from thinking it was real.

Regards, Ron

[ErrolFlynn]

I still believe that all light switches in Australia have been installed in Wall-Plates, since before WWII.
Please provide photographs of anything which you have which may contradict that statement.

There’s no wall plate or box here. Two rawlplugs were used. One had been pushed through a hole in the asbestos. You can see the hole to the right. Stupid idea, because it became loose, and that’s what I wanted fixed. You can see the remaining (red) plug to the left. Even that one hasn’t been properly fitted. But it’s in well enough to serve its purpose with a decent-length screw.

This is the fourth time I’ve had to pull an electrical fitting from the wall (two other switches, and a power outlet). None of them had mounting boxes or plates. Thankfully, the rawlplugs were secure in all of them.

528354


This particular problem was a real pain to fix. There was so little space in there to get some wood behind it, but it worked out brilliantly in the end. A nice firm switch.

The local hardware didn’t have any epoxy products. I wanted to try the epoxy putty, but they didn’t stock it. Disappointing. Various types of Araldite and super glue, mostly. Then I spotted Gorilla Glue on the shelf. I’ve never used that before and was curious about it. Unusual stuff to use: wet one surface with water, apply the glue to the other surface, and clamp. I tested it, before using it on the job, by glueing a piece of wood to a cement chunk I found lying around, that had a flat surface. The stuff expands as it sets. It seemed to make a good bond too.

The solution that Jack suggested was what I did. It worked well. I couldn't use a piece of wood as large as suggested, but I fiddled until I got a piece pushed in as large as would fit. You can see a bit of the wood in the photo. Sorry about the camera shake.

528355

I opted to drill a hole in the wood prior to glueing it in place. I doubted my chances of getting the hole in exactly the best spot and I didn’t want to risk the switch being mounted at an angle because I got the screw in the wrong place. Untidy. And nor did I want to drill through the plastic housing after the glue had dried. There’s not much of a shoulder on the plastic for the screw to hang on to, and I could imagine my drill bit chewing it off.

I was going to dispose of the old hardware. Rather than just binning it, I put it to use. I cut it into the shape you see in the photo which allowed it to act as a template for the correct screw locations. By screwing the template to the wall, engaging with the existing rawlplug on one end and me wiggling the piece of wood with its still wet glue at the other until I found the pre-drilled hole, I could then tighten both screws ensuring the template was level, and by tightening the screw into the wood it served as a clamp while the glue dried. You’ll spot a screw in the wood at the edge which I used as a handle.

So, the next day I removed all the screws and tossed the template, the piece of wood remained in place. Thankfully. You can see how the glue has bubbled out a little. On went the new switch. With the new switch and facia on, it looks good.

[droog]

Hope you shortened the cable and re-terminated or as a minimum insulated the bare conductor.
528356

[ErrolFlynn]

You've got good eyes.

I only noticed it as I was posting; when I looked at the photo. Didn't spot it when I pulled the thing out. It's been like that for 30 years or so. It can wait a bit longer. I think I might have some spaghetti somewhere.

[jack620]

Good job, given the limitations placed on you.