Installing cooktop - do I need an electrician - and if so why?

[Geno]

We have just bought a new oven (electric), cooktop (electric) and rangehood.

I have pulled out the old Chef oven (guessing it weighed over 50kgs) and rangehood and have already installed the new rangehood which was a no-brainer.

Disconnecting the old oven was simple, the main challenge being to clean up the mess left by the butcher (presumably a "qualified sparky) who installed it in the first place.

I am reading the installation instructions for the Cooktop and it states that; "The cooktop MUST be installed by a qualified electrician".

Does anybody know where I stand legally if I do it myself? I have done a lot of basic wiring before without any problem and this job looks very simple. In this case simply unwire the old cooktop and run the existing wires into "L", "N" and Earth on the new cooktop.

The only problem I have had viv-a-vis electricals was when I got a sparky to put in some downlights and he trashed the roof in the process.

[Clinton1]

Cause if you do it yourself and it causes a problem, your warranty is void and the house insurance will not cover you.
Right or wrong - no warranty or insurance.

[ozwinner]

Its the lamb chops that need frying, not you..

Bzzzzttt.................zzzztttttt

Al :D

[DavidG]

Geno
Legally you need a sparkie. If you stuff it up there will be problems.

<SB>
Having said that - Why is it so - Why can a qualified sparkie legally make a #%#%@& mess and all is Ok but if we do a thing correctly it is not.

These sparkies need a big shake up and standard house work up to the meter box should be able to be done by anyone with a minimum qualification.
</SB>

[Termite]

I know who put mine in. ;) but then again I spent quite a bit of my life in the building game.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Having said that - Why is it so - Why can a qualified sparkie legally make a #%#%@& mess and all is Ok but if we do a thing correctly it is not.

Because being a qualified sparky they also carry the appropriate insurance to cover themselves, you and any third-party who may be affected if they royally screw up. If, Ghu forbid, someone is killed by an appliance the installer'll be taken to task. Criminal negligence is criminal negligence, whether it's you trying to save a buck or a sparky.

Having said all that, it is a simple connection, provided that the existing wiring is:rated to take the appliance in good condition was wired correctly in the first place If you have faith in your ability to check such things, all the better for you.

Oh... and there is certification which lets you disconnect/replace hardwired items without being a full sparky. 'Tis how some smarter gas-fitters and air-con repairers manage things. Not all tote a spare sparky in their toolkit. ;)

There's also another certification available to owner-builders which permits 'em to wire up to the metre-box, subject to final approval & connection by a qual'd sparky. Offhand I forget the details of these cert's but I'm pretty sure they've been covered in these forums (fora? forii? :confused: ) before.

[Paul B]

Two words: voided warranty. Also, if you fu@k it up it could kill you.

Yes it's easy and just about anybody with a half a brain could do it. But if the sparky has made a dogs breakfast of the wiring, how sure are you that the wire you think is active is actually the active?

I had a sparky come into work to put in a few power points into the lab. Somehow the clown set it up so that there was a potential across the earths of two power points. I found out the hard way by touching two pieces of equipment at the same time. If a pro can stuff it up so can you. But if they do, you're covered, or your next of kin are.

[pharmaboy2]

By the looks of other peoples experience with sparky's- familiarity breeds contempt (or maybe just incompetence?)

Maybe the reason for the laws as regards unlicensed elctrical has more in common with the experience in the UK for instance, where laws (or is it just rules/threats?) were more lax, and the truly incompetent figured they could rewire their 250 year old terrace from start to finish with the odd bad outcome - usually for the new owner.

As always we go from the sublime to the ridiculous - you cant even replace a light here for chrissakes - replace a plug - youre kidding me. I dare say an insurance company would have the onus of proof to show the work was done by unlicensed as well as the unlicensed work being causal in the claim - wouldnt stop sending a letter of denial to try it on though.

[normell]

By the looks of other peoples experience with sparky's- familiarity breeds contempt (or maybe just incompetence?)

Maybe the reason for the laws as regards unlicensed elctrical has more in common with the experience in the UK for instance, where laws (or is it just rules/threats?) were more lax, and the truly incompetent figured they could rewire their 250 year old terrace from start to finish with the odd bad outcome - usually for the new owner.

As always we go from the sublime to the ridiculous - you cant even replace a light here for chrissakes - replace a plug - youre kidding me. I dare say an insurance company would have the onus of proof to show the work was done by unlicensed as well as the unlicensed work being causal in the claim - wouldnt stop sending a letter of denial to try it on though.

Ridiculous ain't the word.
Local hardware shop can't sell common fuse wire anymore, 'cause PPL might replace their own blown fuses (gotta use a qualified leccy) or buy the dearer circuit breaker's.

Normell

[Pulse]

Geno, The current standards AS 3000 also specify that an isolation switch is needed to turn off the oven in case of emergency.. This is a recent addition so the old circuit will probably not have it.

Cheers
Pulse

[Wildman]

The isolation switch also needs to be less than a certain distance from the oven (1500mm I think), labelled "oven" and be accessible without having to climb over anything or lean over the hot plates. You can buy 32A oven switches from any electrical supplier ready to use with the labels on them.

[silentC]

If you are wiring up a new stove to an existing circuit, are you required to bring the whole installation up to standard?

I'd probably do it if it was me but curious as to where you draw the line. If a sparky installs a security light for you, is he supposed to rewire the whole house so it complies?

[Redgy]

Silent....No & No

As far as I understand the sparky needs to tell the owner their installation is not up to current spec & the onus is on the owner to get it fixed. Example earthing to light points. A sparky puts a new light (ie new wiring to previously unlit room) in a house which all the other light fittings are not earthed. His job is to install the NEW light to current regs & advise the owner (in writing on the COC) that the rest of the house is not up to spec. If someone gets zapped off one of the original non earthed light fittings, owners problem not sparky's. I beleive the oven would be the same....you are replacing an existing component in the wiring so no need to fit the oven isolation switch. The sparky replacing your oven would be required to let you know that you should have a switch installed. If you built on a new kitchen then it is new wiring that would have to be to current spec.

Hope all that makes some sense, I've been out of the domestic scene for a fair while so am happy to be corrected. :)

Reg

[Markw]

Something you may also have to consider is the current rating for the two seperate assemblies.

I recently replaced my old upright with a separate oven and cooktop. The old upright operated on a single 32 amp circuit where as this was insufficient for the new assembly, 20 amp for the oven (double oven assembly) and 16 amps for the cooktop. The result was the installation of two separate circuits.

[Don777]

Hi Geno

I agreed with Mark, check total load and wire size..
yes I changed my partner's upright cooker over
But I did check the wire size and asked work's sparky, and he confirmed the wire size was Ok ( bigger than 4mm dia and multi strand ) ( it measured 5.5mm by the way ) So bingo new Cooker and no Sparky adn all is happy particularly me ( the Cook )

Lastly be carefully

[Markw]

But I did check the wire size and asked work's sparky, and he confirmed the wire size was Ok ( bigger than 4mm dia and multi strand ) ( it measured 5.5mm by the way )


Don FYI
Conductor sizes are measured in square millimeters ie
1.5mm2 = Lighting circuit
2.5mm2 = 10 amp multiple GPO circuit or 1x 15amp circuit
4mm2 = not sure of exact A rating but is normal for stoves at about 32A
300mm2 = Stuff I engineer on - big bang when things go wrong.:eek:

[rrich]

While your electricity is distributed a bit differently than ours, the installation of a REPLACEMENT appliance is little more than replacing a power cord on your router, just the appliance wiring uses bigger wires. It's not a big deal.

You've said that there are three wires, Line (hot), Neutral and Earth (quaint term). Assuming that the new appliance requires a circuit that is the same or less capacity (in amperes) as the old just connect it up and be done with it. Here, the Neutral and Ground (a.k.a. Earth) are the same circuit (different wires) as they are tied to the same bus bar in the circuit breaker box. The only function of our ground wire is to protect the user if the Line comes into contact with the case of the device. I suspect that if you removed the cover plate that surrounds the circuit breakers at the service entrance you would see neutral (white?) and earth (green?) connected together.

If the new appliance requires a circuit with a greater ampere capacity than the old, you MUST run a new circuit with new wires and a correctly sized circuit breaker. (Remember that the circuit breaker is intended to protect the wires in the house but not the appliance. I think that this is the reason for the legal disclaimer that requires an electrician.)

[silentC]

Earth (quaint term)
You want to be careful raising the subject of quaint terminology on an Australian forum, buddy ;)

[Redgy]

the installation of a REPLACEMENT appliance is little more than replacing a power cord on your router, just the appliance wiring uses bigger wires. It's not a big deal.

Actually THAT is the reason you need an electrician in this country. Things that plug in are fair game for people to fix but when you are talking appliances like the oven, they are connected to fixed wiring & this is where you need a sparky.
Also our neutrals are black & earth is green with yellow stripe (for colour blind people)

Reg

[Pulpo]

If the earth was not plugged into same bus as neutral, then neutral would not work and the electricity connection would not work.

Is this correct?

Anyway in the US anyone can undertake their own electrical installations although must be inspected.

In Oz only qualified sparkies can perform all electrical work.

Regards

Pulpo

[Dan]

If the earth was not plugged into same bus as neutral, then neutral would not work and the electricity connection would not work.

Is this correct?


No, it still works. The neutral and earth bar are separate and are joined by the M.E.N link, if the link is missing everything still works but it can make the installation more dangerous. The electrician removes the link to perform tests on his work and then puts it back when he's done.

[rrich]

You want to be careful raising the subject of quaint terminology on an Australian forum, buddy ;)

LOL here! :D

I guess that we're two countries separated only by a common language.

I once owned a Datsun (Now Nissan) Fair Lady roadster. While doing some work on the car, the term "Positive Earth" was frequently thrown about in a variety of shop manuals. To my way of thinking, not so positive earth would be a swamp. Finally in frustration I went to the local dealer and service manager. He giggled and took me back to one of the line mechanics. I explained my question to the mechanic. The mechanic starts calling to the other mechanics in the shop, "Anybody know what positive earth is? We have a customer here that needs to know." Eventually a kid, no more than 19 or 20 comes over and explains that it is the positive side of the battery connected to the chassis or ground.

Ever since then, when I see the term Earth in an electrical discussion, I get a chuckle laughing at myself for being that stupid.

[silentC]

I've always wondered how you guys get gas to run downhill into your fuel tanks ;)

I've got a mate from Atlanta. Most of the time we understand each other fine but every now and then he uses a word that makes me stop and think. He's been out here long enough to know that you don't sit on your fanny though :D

[rrich]

Actually THAT is the reason you need an electrician in this country. Things that plug in are fair game for people to fix but when you are talking appliances like the oven, they are connected to fixed wiring & this is where you need a sparky.


I guess that your 'Sparkies' would be having kittens over my most recent project. I just put six new circuits in a sub panel installed in the shop. Here we use two Line (Black and Red wires) for 240 volts, either Line to Neutral (White wire) for 120 volts and both use the Ground (a.k.a. Earth is the Green wire). The inspector didn't care that I was going to do the work. He just asked if I understood the code. My answer was absolutely and that I wouldn't do it any other way because it was my life.

[rrich]

I've always wondered how you guys get gas to run downhill into your fuel tanks ;)



That's easy, we just stand on our heads while we're at the filling station. ;)

[Markw]

Whats black and crispy and hangs from the ceiling, a yank who does his own circuit work.:D

This may not necesserily be our friend rrich, and house wiring is not rocket science, but it does take an understanding of basic electrical wiring principles and reasonable supply of common sense. A value which a large majority of the world seem to be without.

Lets face it, you cant see it, hear it (under 5kVA) or smell it; but if you touch it, chances are your dead. No second chances and no coming back. Dead Dead Dead. If by some accident you don't fry yourself yet still stuff the wiring, then next thing you know will be a roof fire. Kiss the house goodbye and you might still end up dead!

As for giving advice to our friend Geno to go ahead and install himself, if the person is not comfortable enough to install without asking questions in the first place, then he definitely should NOT attempt to carry out the work!!!

By the way, the neutral is not connected to earth (ground) as most RCD's activate if neutral and earth are cross connected. Neutral is one of the feed lines at your point of connection whereas your earth is connected to a large copper spike in the ground or in older houses to your water pipes (this is being phased out - too many crispy plumbers).

[Barry_White]

I guess that your 'Sparkies' would be having kittens over my most recent project. I just put six new circuits in a sub panel installed in the shop. Here we use two Line (Black and Red wires) for 240 volts, either Line to Neutral (White wire) for 120 volts and both use the Ground (a.k.a. Earth is the Green wire). The inspector didn't care that I was going to do the work. He just asked if I understood the code. My answer was absolutely and that I wouldn't do it any other way because it was my life.

Rich

Over here we don't have 120 volts. We have single phase 240v and three phase 415v.

In our wiring white is used as a switch wire in lighting circuits as well as in control circuits along with other colours in air conditioning wiring.

[Pulpo]

No, it still works. The neutral and earth bar are separate and are joined by the M.E.N link, if the link is missing everything still works but it can make the installation more dangerous. The electrician removes the link to perform tests on his work and then puts it back when he's done.


Thanks for that.

Whats an MEN link?

And is not the neutral and earth wire connected on the same bus?

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.

I have had some electrical work done on my shed, almost all the work was performed by an apprentice [although almost finished his apprenticeship].

His boss I hired.

I have questions about the work and the only way can check is have another sparkie come out and inspect $140.

In many ways I'm just not happy including the finish, small internal circuit breaker box, covers not fitting, or missing screws. If I had some guidance these mistakes would not have been made.

Yes I have check the standards but they are not exactly user friendly.

This a bit more than power points and lights.

Sorry I have got off the topic.

Pulpo

[Barry_White]

Thanks for that.

Whats an MEN link?

And is not the neutral and earth wire connected on the same bus?

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.

I have had some electrical work done on my shed, almost all the work was performed by an apprentice [although almost finished his apprenticeship].

His boss I hired.

I have questions about the work and the only way can check is have another sparkie come out and inspect $140.

In many ways I'm just not happy including the finish, small internal circuit breaker box, covers not fitting, or missing screws. If I had some guidance these mistakes would not have been made.

Yes I have check the standards but they are not exactly user friendly.

This a bit more than power points and lights.

Sorry I have got off the topic.

Pulpo

Pulpo

MEN stands for Main Earth Neutral where the main earth is inserted into the Neutal Link on the switch board.

If you really want to check what is what, go to the Standards Association and purchase AS3000 which is the Australian Standard for wiring.

http://www.standards.com.au/catalogue/script/Result.asp?PSearch=false&SearchType=simple&Status=all&DegnKeyword=AS3000&Search=Search&Db=AS&Max=15

[Barry_White]

Pulpo

One other thing you could do is ask your local electricity supply to come out and inspect it. They don't inspect every job now it is up to the sparky to make sure everything is ok. They only do spot checks provided the sparky has put in a notification.

I would reckon 25% of sparkies woudn't put a notification on a domestic job but the average consumer wouldn't know that.

At one time they inspected every thing and the sparky had to put in a "Ready for Test" notice and supply couldn't be connected until after it was connected and that was usually done by the inspector if every was OK. If it wasn't the sparky had to come back and fix it and have it inspected again.

[Redgy]

Whats an MEN link?

Multiple Earthed Neutral




Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.


Yes, all the electricians got together & we decided it was a bad idea so had the books removed from the bookstores.:p

Redgy

[rrich]

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.



I guess that is your local application of the mushroom theory.

We're lucky in that respect. Almost every big box home improvement store has their own book explaining the code interms that can be understood by ID 10 Ts like me.

[lnt9000]

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.
Pulpo

The regulations in australia are one of the most stringent on this planet, It wasn't all that long ago when I use to service tv's vcr's etc, In australia anyone could open up the back of a set and do what ever they liked under no threat from any govening body, tv's were not thought of as seriously as mains wiring although they incorporated just that, It is quite amazing in fact that the countries that have the least stringent regulations have the least amount of electrocutions, this is a known fact and as such is generally associated with a more competative industry due to legislation which allows individuals to do their own wiring. here in aus It just keeps getting worse, a few years back queensland Introduced a new legislation that put hundreds of technicians out of work, anyone working on mains powered appliances had to have an electricians license, I believe they had a special "deal" happening with some of the major players that enabled them to obtain this license with little effort, with the threat that it was to spread to other states I enquired as to what I would have to do to obtain one, A four year apprenticeship I was informed, hell I was getting a little too old who would hire a 50 year old apprentice? also they were toying with the idea of removing electrical items from hardware stores etc and have them available only in specialized shops which required you to provide proof of trade to acquire, In silicon chip magazine this was extensively covered and the masses of disapprovals that ensued might have disheartened the mongers, and they left sleeping dogs lie, but then I havn't been in touch,and then to answer your question who would bother to write a book that would have little interest, (let alone the legal ramifications) you will find plenty of them in overseas countries where individuals buy them so that they can legally carry out their own wiring, those books are of absolutely no value here.:rolleyes:

[silentC]

My uncle works the electrical section of a Bunnings. Every weekend he gets people asking him how to wire up a powerpoint. He says if I have to tell you how to wire one up you shouldn't be doing it.

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

Maybe you also need to look at the number of house fires and the number of new home owners who have to pay for their house to be re-wired after the previous owner had his way with it.

We've had this debate before (whatever happened to Jackie?). There has to be SOME regulation. Letting any mug do his own wiring is a dumb idea. I think it should be a bit easier for people to get qualified though. I'd love to do a course and become qualified but like you I'm a bit old to be an apprenticeship.

[Iain]

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

.
Would that be per head of capita???

[pharmaboy2]

My uncle works the electrical section of a Bunnings. Every weekend he gets people asking him how to wire up a powerpoint. He says if I have to tell you how to wire one up you shouldn't be doing it.

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

Maybe you also need to look at the number of house fires and the number of new home owners who have to pay for their house to be re-wired after the previous owner had his way with it.

We've had this debate before (whatever happened to Jackie?). There has to be SOME regulation. Letting any mug do his own wiring is a dumb idea. I think it should be a bit easier for people to get qualified though. I'd love to do a course and become qualified but like you I'm a bit old to be an apprenticeship.
"a little bit of information can be dangerous" - in this case, it is the witholding of the rest of the information that sometimes makes it dangerous. case in point, householder 9/10ths through a job and asks a sparky on a forum or over the phone a question of confirmation and the sparky wont answer because its against the law to actually help someone, and almost certainly make it safer - that is an outcome that cant possibly help.

On the above i have come up against that exact problem with a 2 way switch (a relo sparky no less!), so figured it out with trial and error - which paradoxically is much safer than it sounds.

Apologies to sparky's on forum, but having worked in the building industry and done work with and without trades in all the trades i can think of, and electrical work was the most often botched by the guys we used, yet easiest to do(close call to tilers!).

[silentC]

in this case, it is the witholding of the rest of the information that sometimes makes it dangerous. case in point, householder 9/10ths through a job and asks a sparky on a forum or over the phone a question of confirmation and the sparky wont answer because its against the law to actually help someone, and almost certainly make it safer - that is an outcome that cant possibly help.
You're missing the point. If they have to ask, they shouldn't be doing ANY of it. That's why they say "all electrical work must be carried out by a licensed contractor" instead of "up to 9/10ths of the work may be carried out by anyone who thinks they're capable of it".

If a sparky does a bodgy job, he is responsible for it. If your work causes a fire or kills someone, your insurance company will just laugh at you and walk away.

[pharmaboy2]

silentC, thats why I said a question of "confirmation" - so for example, original poster asks if replacing a cooktop is a simple as it seems, and no electrician answers except with a "you are not legally entitled to do the work" - OK which they know so the point is worthless, yet a reply such as - as long as the ratings are the same nothing needs to change, unless its a new install in which case you'd need to have a local switch to install.

I must admit though, that just because Australia has a set of laws(as strong as any other western country) I dont automatically believe they save any lives or outcomes. It wouldnt surprise me at all if there is no difference in fatality rates in the US versus here, after all everyone is well aware of how dangerous the stuff is - a leco with a multimeter has reason and knowledge to work on live electricals - a householder doesnt - any DIYer would be throwing the main switch - that alone I would think would bring the fatality rates towards equal for work done. But i would like to see the stats for interest.

I wouldnt tell anyone how to put in a new point, but someone who wants to move a light switch 200mm out of the way of a door, hardly deserves to pay an electrician $80 for being handy with black electrical tape! Whose argueing that it should be illegal to change your own blown fuse (wire type)? thats just crazy.

[silentC]

Does anybody use fusewire any more? We upgraded our meter box to use circuit breakers - much easier when it trips at 10:00 at night ;)

For the record, I have done my own electrical work in the past and no doubt will again. Moving light switches, moving and adding points - that type of thing. I'm not saying that it's rocket science.

What I am arguing is that having the information readily available to any weekend warrior is not a great idea. Imagine you could go to Bunnies and buy a book on rewiring your house. Can you imagine the turmoil if one of those guys in the cargo pants and sandals that you see down there decided to go home and do their own wiring? It's better that it's a black art so that at least the guys doing it should know which wire goes where on a point without needing instructions on the back of the packet.

[pharmaboy2]

Unfortunately both my sets of parents have fusewire - I've just found out unfortunately! Maybe i can get a bulk purchase on 30 of the cb's.

Obviously I agree that rewiring the house is a biggy. I have a neighbour that requires me to put a bbq together but I assume he's never gonna get the confidence to go mucking around with putting a new circuit in, but even he could manage to change a light fitting - you know put it back the same way you found it concept LOL!

Although i think instructions on the back of packets is a good thing - basics like colours of active, neutral, and earth should be widely known, and on a switch replacement the an old broken one might have different markings - you know what is X, 1 and 2 signify etc. When authorities assume that no-one non electrical will ever do something, thats when bad things start to happen - if you assumed on the roads that no-one ever made a mistake we wouldnt have guard rails! Deliberate creation of ignorance is not usually good policy.

silent - now dont get me on to plumbers either Sheeesh! ;) The world's one big demarcation dispute!

[Pulpo]

Woollies still sells fuse wire, so one would assume that those fuses are still used.

So what many are arguing is having the law for the lowest common multiple.

A pollies utopia.

Electric cooktops are just not as good as gas, that way no sparkie required.

Speaking of which I'm about to install a cooktop which is gas, hopefully the law doesn't require me to consult a sparkie to inform me I require a gas fitter.

At a quick look the gas fitter has a hose to connect fittings attached.

Cheers

Pulpo

[silentC]

I bet the instruction sheet that comes with your stove says "must be installed by a licensed gasfitter". It probably has electric igniton? You'll need a sparky too in that case.

On the lowest common multiple comment, yes. Do you really want some of those people at Bunnies on Saturday wiring/plumbing the house that you or one of your children might buy off them one day? ;)

[Redgy]

Apologies to sparky's on forum, but having worked in the building industry and done work with and without trades in all the trades i can think of, and electrical work was the most often botched by the guys we used, yet easiest to do(close call to tilers!).

Apology not accepted.:mad: poor tiling never killed anyone

I have no problems with people such as yourself going for it with domestic wiring but don't ring a sparky when it doesn't work OR you don't know how to do it so can't finish it OR you electrocute someone OR your house burns down. You will deservedly get a short answer. If the guys you have used in the past are crap then tarring the whole trade with the same brush is obviously easier for you than dealing with the issues & people at the time.

[rrich]

Mates,
I'm sorry that I started this by suggesting to just go ahead and do it.

Obvioiusly, you do have some rather stringent rules concerning electric wiring. But then there was the comment about electrical tape... We have to use wire nuts these days.

All in all it got me thinking about the electrocutions. It seems from several comments that your rate (In Australia) is much higher than ours. In the US, virtually all of the consumer accessable electric power is 120 volts. The heavy duty appliances like cook tops, whole house aif conditioners, ovens and larger shop machinery are powered by 240 volts. The usual consumer does not mess with the 240 volt wiring. It is my understanding that everything there is 240 volts.

Based upon the difference in the commonally available voltage, do you think that the higher voltage is the real reason for the higher rate of electrocutions? Here it really takes some effort to be killed by 120 volts. What do you guys think?

AND, while reading this thread I saw that there was a need for a sparky to do a new powerpoint. Now this dumb yank is thinking, 'Why is a sparky needed to create something in the Microsoft program PowerPoint?' :o Then I realized that your powerpoint is what we call an outlet. Well why not call an outlet a powerpoint? We call the 12 volt access in our vehicles a powerpoint. Same thing only different voltages.

[silentC]

We call the 12 volt access in our vehicles a powerpoint.
Here in Australia we call that a cigarette lighter ;)

Regarding voltage, it's the current, not the voltage, that kills you. 110v can be lethal. Anything over 24v can cause harm or kill if you get enough of it.

[silentC]

I got this from wikipedia (Electric shock):


It is believed that human lethality is most common with AC current at 100-250 volts, as lower voltages can fail to overcome body resistance while with higher voltages the victim's muscular contractions are often severe enough to cause them to recoil (although there will be considerable burn damage). However, death has occurred from supplies as low as 32 volts.

[Ashore]

rrich
Thank god he didn't say it happened a fortnight ago or you would have realy been lost :D :D

As to the electrical tape , it is only used to cover the BP ( Screwed Connector) not to join wires , this tape can also be a good indication of a hot joint as it will hardens and crack from the heat.
You refer to wire nuts if these are the twist on type then they won't pass some Australian rules
Earth wires have to be joined by open ended connectors and held by two screws etc

Silent is correct as to the amperage , and DC is more dangerous than AC, its just that theres not as much around.

[chrisp]

While I agree with the comment "if you have to ask them you shouldn't be doing it", I think the electrical regulations in Australia are too tight - and I suspect that it isn't purely due to safety concerns. My view is that if you can demonstrate the required knowledge and practical skills you should be able to obtain a wiring licence.

In my case I'm a tertiary qualified electrical engineer (and I'm employed as a design engineer). My knowledge of electrical theory goes beyond that covered in AS3000 (I work in research and I have explain technical electrical matters to fully qualified electricians). I'm reasonably competent with hand tools and can soon strip and join wires (I routinely make connections that are used up to 1000A in my work). I also have worked on high voltage equipment. Can I obtain a wiring licence to do my own work in Victoria? Damn near impossible!

I have spoken to the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector (OCEI) some years ago and the regulations seem to be a bit of a Catch-22. (Details are bit vague now, but it went something like this.) I could, theoretically, go to a TAFE collage and do a course on sitting the wiring rules exam, but I would also need 80 hours practical experience to obtain the "Occupiers Licence" (which is what I was enquiring about). No problem I thought - I know an A-grade electrician and I could easily arrange to work along side him for the required time. But according to the OCEI, to work with the electrician I would first need a "supervised workers licence". How do I one, do another TAFE course, but I would have to be apprenticed to an electrician to be able to do that course. Bottom line was that to obtain a wiring licence I'd have to effectively do a 4 year apprenticeship.

Are the regulations intended to keep us safe or are they intended to maintain a closed shop?

(Ahhh, that feels better - good to get that off my chest :o )

Chris

[silentC]

DC is more dangerous than AC
I was reading a bit about that in Wikipedia. Because it doesn't cycle, DC 'grabs' hold of you and wont let go, so you can't let go of whatever it is that is electrocuting you. With AC, you get a chance to let go. The problem with AC is that the alternating current messes with your heart's pacemaker and so most electrocution deaths are from fibrillation and subsequent cardiac arrest.

I went to school with a guy who was walking home one day and he casually reached up and grabbed a cable as he walked under it. Turned out it was a high tension cable that had come down in a storm. He couldn't let go and his mates thought he was mucking about until the smoke started coming out his ears :eek: It burned off his left arm to just below the elbow and left huge burns on his back and the tops of his feet. Very luck to have survived.

[silentC]

are they intended to maintain a closed shop
I think we all know the answer to that ;)

[Markw]

a leco with a multimeter has reason and knowledge to work on live electricals - a householder doesnt



A point of note here:

Under Regulation 2000 OH&S No electrician is permitted to work on a live installation. Special dispensation is granted to electrical workers employed by distribution authorities such as EnergyAustralia, Intergral Energy, Country Energy etc to work live low voltage (below 600V). Can't have the power company turning off the Sydney CBD just to replace a blown wire fuse :D

Silent

With regard to electrocution and Wikopedia I have a hard time believing that a supply of 32v is capable of causing injury. I have spent many many hours working on 36v and 48v forklifts without sustaining even a tingle and these units have the capacity of huge amperage from the battery system. Maybe under special circumstances ie had pacemaker, standing upside down in bucket of water to increase conductivety and subsquently drowned! :D

No you must first have sufficient energy (joules) to electrocute and the voltage must overcome resistance. The amperage at a high enough voltage to cause defibrillation can be measured in milliamps - Think of modern day automotive high voltage systems (spark plug leads), these can and have cause defib. As to household systems, all RCDs are set to activate at lower than 100mA which can still provide a nasty tingle up the arm - just ask my builder, he found a loose wire in a wall cavity with his bare knuckle - the wire had been cut off and hanging in space by the previous owner who mustn't have liked the old GPO position.

[Markw]

With AC, you get a chance to let go. The problem with AC is that the alternating current messes with your heart's pacemaker and so most electrocution deaths are from fibrillation and subsequent cardiac arrest.


You DON'T get a chance to let go. At 50 cycles per second your muscle will just contract and not extend/contract at 50 times each second; all the time while the electricity is charring the point of entry and the point of exit - usually your hands and feet respectively. You might note that by charring, the flesh is carburised and thus making an even better conductor. :(

At least with high voltage you will probably be blown clear by the blast. All you have to contend with is the 2000 degree C plasma gases and blast debris which will incinerate your lungs and throat.

I've commissioned and viewed low voltage arc testing
415V - 25kA - what our people work with daily and it's really scarey. Don't ever want to be a conductor.

[pharmaboy2]

Apology not accepted.:mad: poor tiling never killed anyone

I have no problems with people such as yourself going for it with domestic wiring but don't ring a sparky when it doesn't work OR you don't know how to do it so can't finish it OR you electrocute someone OR your house burns down. You will deservedly get a short answer. If the guys you have used in the past are crap then tarring the whole trade with the same brush is obviously easier for you than dealing with the issues & people at the time.
Well, adding another apology obviously wont help if the first didnt. Possibly, more info will help (though it may not) - the phone call was on a sunday (try getting a trade on a sunday!) after the flappin wires fell out of a triple switched light, while changing over a cover plate (2 architrave switches to one) - simple answer was like getting blood from a stone from this relo with a 10 minute lecture - so not all are maybe as understanding as some.

"by the guys we used" was an attempt to make clear that I was speaking "in my personal experience" not generally. There are only 2 trades we are forced to use - sparky's and plumbers. Anyone else stuffs up and the builder can fix it on the spot (within reason) except for those 2 - rest assured, if you were waiting on your final 20k payment because someone mucked up and you cant get them back to the job site inside of 6 weeks - you'd be too!

chrisp, - have 2 electrical engineers as friends, its a pretty strange world at times - one says when going round plant, he feels like a King with his own "food tester" LOL! - design it, just dont touch it!

[Auld Bassoon]

Letting any mug do his own wiring is a dumb idea. .

I was once chartered to take a sixty five footer sloop-rigged yacht from Durban to Cape Town, with two other crew; the voyage (about +/- 4 days) was also to include 5 or 6 'guests' of the owner.

Being mindful of the state of some yachts, I and the bosun gave the boat a thorough examination about a week before we were due to sail. This included not just the hull, spars, standing & running rigging, but all the navigation, safety equipment, pumps, water systems, mechanicals - and electricals.

Like most larger yachts she had 24v lighting and domestic, but she also had an Onan 6KvA genset.

On opening up all of the circuit access ports we found that all of the wiring was black, and all the same size. :eek: Not only that, but a bank of 8 very large lead-acid batteries, with open copper terminal interlinks were sitting just under (I do mean 'just' - i.e. about 20mm) the fabricated steel platform that the genset was bolted to, and that the batteries were unsecured vertically. Clearly someone had forgotten that boats to move up and down, not just fore & aft....:rolleyes:

On querying the owner, he 'fessed-up that he had "refurbished" the boat himself - with clearly not a clue (or brain cell) being used anywhere.

Needless to say we declined the charter :D

Auld Bassoon - Thread Pirate

[Pulpo]

I wired up a small shack using DC from solar and battery bank.

I knew little to nothing on the subject but the shop that supplied just about everything was most helpful.

They also stated that no requirement, when installing DC, for a sparkie.

Still do not know why there should be any minimum time limits for doing any apprenticeship.

Pulpo

[Markw]

I was once chartered to take a sixty five footer sloop-rigged yacht - all of the wiring was black, and all the same size. :eek:


This reminds me of the very early dodge scout vans and some of the early International Harvester Acco 1940's. They were both wired in a pasty yellow colour :confused: . Admittedly there were some other colours with the IH Acco but mostly yellow. At least the wires had numbers on them which you could sort of follow. Still its a very dumb way to identify different circuits and DC circuits burn really well if crossed.

[Ashore]

I think the electrical regulations in Australia are too tight - and I suspect that it isn't purely due to safety concerns.

Must agree 100% , on a ship I am qualified to handle all electrical work , from 3.3KV to 10 volt and all in between, have worked on breakers and power generation systems big enough to power a town .
Plus the electronics , all the accomodation wireing , dealt with dc power generation and motors, approved as a lecturer regarding ships electrics, and yet am not allowed to change a three pin plug at home,
Some of the so called qualified people I have seen work and others I have had to employ I would have sacked at sea
It's a closed shop like plumbing but I think there should be a weeks course type thing to allow you to gain a limited licence to undertake certain limited work on your own Home.

[silentC]

With regard to electrocution and Wikopedia I have a hard time believing that a supply of 32v is capable of causing injury.
You should go and update it then if it's wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocution

[Exador]

They also stated that no requirement, when installing DC, for a sparkie.

Pulpo

There is no requirement to be licensed to work on ELV, which is <50V. It doesn't matter whether it is AC or DC and I have worked on some solar installations in which the battery bank was wired as 240V, simply to minimise transmission losses. Of course, as I'm not a sparky, I must have been imagining it, I reckon ;).



Still do not know why there should be any minimum time limits for doing any apprenticeship.
Pulpo

I can see a need for it, simply because the average pimply-faced youth needs to have everything drummed in several times before it even sinks in that a rule exists and then a few dozen more times to recognise when it applies. In the case of those with prior experience, such as our electrical gingerbeer friends, or a TA with experience, it is a bit stupid and largely intended as a measure to protect those already in the business from open competition. In my own case I feel quite competent to cable and connect my own home / business in accordance with AS3000 because of other background that I have, although I've never worked in the field directly.

[lnt9000]

A point of note here:

No you must first have sufficient energy (joules) to electrocute and the voltage must overcome resistance. The amperage at a high enough voltage to cause defibrillation can be measured in milliamps - Think of modern day automotive high voltage systems (spark plug leads), these can and have cause defib. As to household systems, all RCDs are set to activate at lower than 100mA which can still provide a nasty tingle up the arm - just ask my builder, he found a loose wire in a wall cavity with his bare knuckle - the wire had been cut off and hanging in space by the previous owner who mustn't have liked the old GPO position.

I think your builder is a very lucky man, one of the first things I learnt when learning electronics was: (don't quote me on the figures but they are close)
1 microamp = tingle, 50 microamp will throw you a few meters away, 1 milliamp and you wont see the sun rise, this is all pertaining to 240volt, I think the potential was there but the duration was too short.

Here is an extract from an article published about 3 years ago, to back up my previous post.

Further to my previous letters, I spent almost the whole of March in New Zealand and I had a very informative and productive meeting with a senior official of the Energy Safety Service within the Ministry of Economic Development. Here is a brief summary of some of the things I discovered.

(1). In a comparative study of international annual electrical fatality statistics done by the New Zealand Energy Safety Serv&ice, Queensland consistently had the highest levels of electrical fatalities in Australia. Much more interestingly, Australia had higher levels of electrical fatalities than any other country studied, with the exception of Northern Ireland.

This New Zealand study confirmed the results of a similar study done by the German government, so the results are corrobo&rated. The country with the lowest electrical fatalities (by a huge margin, varying from year to year between 0.5 and less than 0.1 deaths per million of population), is The Netherlands, and this is one of the many countries that allow householder DIY wiring). Australia has the second highest levels of annual elec&trical fatalities (varying between 2.5 and 4 deaths per million of population).

Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves.

(2). Prior to 1992, it was illegal for any electrician in New Zealand to explain any technical aspect of electrical wiring to anyone who was not a trainee electrician, or not otherwise li&censed to do "electrical work". This prohibition was seen as a serious impediment to the new electrical safety regime and was eliminated in the 1992 changes to the NZ electrical safety re&gime. (It appears there is no similar prohibition in the current Queensland legislation).

(3). Anyone can assist an electrician to do electrical work in New Zealand, without the electrician having to look over that person’s shoulder. So for instance, after an electrician has agreed to supervise your work, you could bolt up the control panel and connect the house cables to it on your own and the electrician would just do a quick check on your work when it is finished.

(4). Only completely new work and extensions, etc, are required to be inspected in New Zealand. You can replace and relocate wiring, power points, switches, etc, without notifying the au&thorities as long as cable lengths are not altered. The exception is wiring in metal conduit. New Zealanders are not allowed to work on systems run through the old metal conduit systems. Howev&er, they can remove all the metal conduit and then rewire the house with modern cable and components.

(5). Interestingly, the overwhelming majority of additions to houses in New Zealand are done on an owner-builder basis, there&fore much of New Zealand DIY electrical work is the wiring asso&ciated with such additions. Of course, entire houses are built by owner-builders in New Zealand and in these cases almost all the wiring is done by the owner.

(6). Specially certified "inspectors" do all required inspec&tions, not ordinary electricians. The "inspectors" are liable for the quality of the inspection but not for the quality of the work. If and when the work appears to be particularly shoddy or unsafe the inspector can refuse to do the inspection.

New Zealanders are advised by their Energy Safety Service to secure the services of an "inspector" before they begin their DIY electrical installation work. These "inspectors" are private operators, not government employees, and of course, the homeowner has to pay for the inspection service. These inspectors advise the homeowner on the technical aspects of the installation if they feel such advice is needed.

(7). The senior NZ Energy Safety Service official I spoke to made it clear to me that homeowner DIY wiring will not change in New Zealand as a result of all the ongoing reviews, which are now largely concerned with the health and safety of electrical work&ers in industry. The attitude of the New Zealand authorities is that there is no danger whatsoever when DIY electrical work is done according to law.

(8). The New Zealand Energy Safety Service has the attitude that old cables, switches, power points and other fittings need to be able to be replaced at low cost. They believe the sorts of dan&gerous situations where people continue to use cable and fittings of questionable serviceability are dramatically reduced by allow&ing householders to replace these items themselves.

(9). Before 1992, electrical engineers and associate engineers in NZ were authorized to do all "electrical work". This has now changed for new graduates though all licenses current in 1992 continue. Recently graduated engineers and associate engineers can apply for electrical contractor licenses after fulfilling appropriate (minimal) training.

In Australia, there is no way to avoid the four-year ap&prenticeship. Let’s face it, which electrical contracting busi&ness would take on an adult trainee on adult wages when they can get a teenage apprentice at slave labour rates?

So effectively, there is no practical path to an electrical contractor’s license for engineers and associate engineers in Australia.

(10). When New Zealand decided to reassess its electrical safety regime they sent an official overseas to study the electrical safety regimes in other countries, including the United Kingdom and USA systems. In the National Competition Policy review of electrical safety in Australia, there is no requirement whatsoev&er to even look at "world’s best practice".

(11). In the United Kingdom, electrical licensing is relatively weak and electrical standards compliance is primarily enforced through insurance. The UK, which has long had householder DIY wiring, has annual electrical fatality levels below 1.0 per million of population. Compare that to the Australian figures!

My extensive interactions with New Zealanders were such that I can wholeheartedly confirm the comments of I. Morrison in the January 2001 Mailbag. New Zealand really is a much kinder, fairer society that is much more protective of civil liberties than we are in Australia. So please, wake up Australia!

Well after that what can you say?, the proof is in the pudding!!!:)

[rrich]

Here in Australia we call that a cigarette lighter ;)



;)
We call them that too but we also have a powerpoint. It's just a cigarette lighter with a higher ampere fuse. In my truck I use a powerpoint with a solid state converter to produce 120V at 100-150 Watts. The manufacturer suggests a 30 ampere fuse in the powerpoint electrics. The mathematics says that the converter should be pulling 10 amperes but I expect only 50-60% effiency.

[Exador]

;)
We call them that too but we also have a powerpoint. It's just a cigarette lighter with a higher ampere fuse. In my truck I use a powerpoint with a solid state converter to produce 120V at 100-150 Watts. The manufacturer suggests a 30 ampere fuse in the powerpoint electrics. The mathematics says that the converter should be pulling 10 amperes but I expect only 50-60% effiency.

Decent inverters run at around 80%+ efficiency, although a cheap MSW (modified square wave ) type is probably running a massive iron-cored transformer and a crappy chopper circuit, so your efficiency guess may well be correct. As an aside, Fronius grid-connected solar power inverters (no transformer, purely electronic) claim 97% efficiency, which ain't bad in anyone's books.

[Markw]

Hen
I am curious about the statistics used in your last post ( I know you personally can't vouch for them) but within the electricity supply industry there is a very very low incedence of deaths. The last ones in NSW that I'm aware of which were attributed to electricity was in Sydney in 1995 where a cable jointer pierced a cable which should of been isolated. The one previous to this was in Newcastle in 1993 where a cherry-picker's external hydraulic lines contacted HV lines, blew a hole in the line and sprayed the basket occupants with hydraulic oil which subsequently caught fire. Hardly an electrocution but still attributed to electricity.

When compared to the construction industry as a whole (including electricians) where the current figures being touted are 1 death every week (all deaths). The usual for death by electrocution is some idiot driving a spud bar into underground cable because he didn't dial before dig. Whilst attributed to electrocution, should have no validity in whether a skilled person installs there own wiring.

Bloody statistics - I get sick of people or organisations twisting them for their own benefit.

[pharmaboy2]

int 9000- legendary piece of info there - well done - its nice to see that some govt's consider the wider good of the community when they make regulations and laws.

It seems pretty clear (unsurprisingly) that the mushroom principle results in unknowledgeable people getting hurt due to lack of available knowledge. Maybe its about time that a state freed things up, allowing tafe's to provide some coursework on household electrical, and while they are at it - plumbing as well.

[Markw]

Maybe its about time that a state freed things up, allowing tafe's to provide some coursework on household electrical, and while they are at it - plumbing as well.

Dream on

The State Labour Government would be too worried about all the votes it would lose from all those plumbers and electricians (the d#%kheads just don't realise that they have already lost them). I mean, you can't imagine that a government would be concerned with the welfare of the populace when their term in office could be longer.

[rrich]

Ashore,
I once had a physics instructor that for a bonus question on a quiz asked:

Express the speed limit (65 Miles per hour) in furlongs per fortnight.

174720.

:p

[Ashore]

rrich , but did you get it right , I have met a few americans and up until now had not met one that knew what a fortnight was

Oh and the answer could alse be 174712 or 174728 if daylight saving time was started or removed during the fortnight

Rgds

[rrich]

Oh and the answer could alse be 174712 or 174728 if daylight saving time was started or removed during the fortnight
Rgds

LOL! :D :D :D

65 miles * 5280 feet / 660 feet = 520 furlongs
14 days * 24 hours = 336 hours per fortnight

520 * 336 = 174720 Furlongs per Fortnight
or
Change to DST (loss of hour by moving clock ahead) 174200
Change back to standard time (Moving clock backwards gains an hour) 175240

But what if we started measuring in metric and round off errors and then conversion back to imperial and we didn't include gas mileage..... ^&^%*$^%$(*) Oops, my calculator just had a serious melt down.:p

[Pulpo]

int9000 excellent piece.

I have nothing to add.

[GeorgieP]

I am sorry to keep this thread alive (as it really does deserve a quick death) but...


Well after that what can you say?, the proof is in the pudding!!!:)

1) The study you mention does not have any external reference for verification.
2) The points in the study are just bizzare and in no way can <b>anything</b> be inferred from it. e.g.


Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves.
What does the fact that Northern Ireland being 'turbulent' have on electrical fatalities? What are Protestant electricians dangerously wiring up Catholic social clubs/businesses/homes? Following on we now have a comparison of this Irish 'fact' with the New Zealand and German experiences to provide a grand answer, which is that "The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves." Seems like a big leap from the original Northern Ireland experience, but it could be because of the bumpy ride.;)

In no way can general rules be applied from so co-called studies that quote no real facts just simple electrocution data. For example the Dutch and continental European experience may be due to damage after WWII causing updating of most electrical installations in the country, major changes in standards, electrical harmonization issues, general social norms (e.g. they respect their tradies more and let them do everything, their tradies are relatively cheap, people don't like to get their hands dirty etc.)
I know that in Greece (as I am Greek) that their building codes include a lot of anti-seismic codes as half of Europe's sesmic activities occur there. As they build using steel-reinforced concrete (even for residential) then all electrical cable is through conduit that is layed in the concrete at the time of building. Suffice to say that working on electrical stuff buried in reo can be a trifle hard for the lay person. Now I am sure others could come up with more and more points.

4) Point 9 is wrong at least in NSW. I wont go into the details, but is why many Electrical engineers at least in NSW have gotten their (limited) licence. In NSW it actually be a bit difficult to be accepted into the bridging course now, as most universities don't offer the <i>power strand</i> in electrical engineering, (or any strands for that matter) which is a prerequisite for being accepted into the course. As I have a friend doing this course I can assure you that there are 'techniques' in getting in. Enough said on this point (at least for now).

5) I have been personally involved (for over 6 years) in supervising an introduction to safety module for young engineers at annual orientation camp that a university in Sydney runs for recent school leavers. I wont mention the name of the university so that don't get in an possible legal trouble. In this module we go through a real life case-study of an electrocution from the files of the old Workcover, and get the students to form pairs and wire up a simple extension lead, with one person wiring the plug the other the socket.
In all my time taking approximately 200/300 people per year through this exercise I have only ever had 1 group! pass the relevant australian standard. i.e 2 people out of 1200+! Even though it might seem easy from the instructions gioven on the back of the packs, there are a lot of little 'tricks'. e.g. The standard states that there is an actual right end of the cable to stick the plug and socket so that the active and neutral wires do not physically cross over. The instructions do not say this. Other points for compliance include:
Not a <b>single</b> copper strand may be cut, nicked, bent or damaged. The <b>exact</b> correct length of insulation must be cut off from the inner wires and outer flex, no damage to the insulation is allowed, cord locking ferrule must be in place, wires locked secured over the mechanical locking tabs (can't remember their exact proper names) etc...
You would be amazed at the simple mistakes people can make. Just letting them loose with instructions, wire, plug and socket, screwdriver and Stanley knife can be physically dangerous, forgetting the electrical and mechanical mistakes they do with the wiring (almost all damage their insulation or inner conductor in some manner). It can be amazing to just watch them trying to cut the wire. Even after explaining to them how to cut the wire and to not place body parts in the cutting vicinity, it is amazing how many use their legs or another hand as a backing support.:eek:<br>
At least no one has chopped an artery on my watch. I wouldn't want to fill in the forms.:D<br>
What I am trying to say is that it a very bad to assume that everyone should be allowed to do electrical work. Standards exist for a reason. They are a PITA to read, especially the electrical ones as they come in a great family of related ones (probably to make more money as the electrical ones I have read are quite small for the price I think, and you always seem to need a few to answer even a quite basic question). Going back on track the fact that electricians seem to be getting it wrong (from the postings on this topic) should be more a reason to limit electrical work so that only competent people can do the work. Speaking for myself I think the bigger problem is the quality (and the cost ) of the electrical work that electricians do. If they really did their job well then I don't think there would be that many complaints, but they do seem from my own (personal) experience not to have enough (practical) experience.

Maybe they need to be retrained periodically. I don't know for sure, but it can be dangerous to let anyone just muck around, or maybe another class of licence should be introduced that allows you to just change power points and switches, and leave all other work to another higher class of licencees.

Anyway good night/morning please don't take this in a bad manner.

Take care

[Purse]

Must agree 100% , on a ship I am qualified to handle all electrical work , from 3.3KV to 10 volt and all in between, have worked on breakers and power generation systems big enough to power a town .
Plus the electronics , all the accomodation wireing , dealt with dc power generation and motors, approved as a lecturer regarding ships electrics, and yet am not allowed to change a three pin plug at home,
Some of the so called qualified people I have seen work and others I have had to employ I would have sacked at sea
It's a closed shop like plumbing but I think there should be a weeks course type thing to allow you to gain a limited licence to undertake certain limited work on your own Home.

Same with me, im an aircraft eleco dealing with 415v with large current draws ( in the hundreds), but its near impossible too obtain a occupy's licence anymore

[chrisv]

Geno

The unfortunate thing is that a small percentage of tradesmen have ruined what I would call a rather skilled trade. My first piece of advice would be ask friends if they know of a Sparky they could reccomend.......if anything goes wrong with your new stove/rangehood etc you will void any warranty that you had if completed by you.

My next thought is ......"if you have to ask you should steer clear of the installation", but I am unaware of your skill or competence. At the end of the day spakies carry all the responsibility and pay hefty insurance premiums and contractor license fees to do such work.

Just a quick mention, it's not the voltage that kills.....it's the current. Many people think oh its only 240v, but if you have ever been electrocuted and lived to tell the tale you will certainly gain a very healthy respect for it. Just remember its milliamps...not single didgit amps that will kill you.


There are many factors to take into consideration before this installation.

1. Does the unit require an isolating switch?
2. Position of switch in kitchen.
3. Correct cable size.
4. Testing of installation.
5. Termination of cables and any joints etc.
6. Circuit load.
7. Correct choice of circuit breakers/switches.
8. Understanding the importance of earthing to appliances etc.
9. AS3000 & AS3018:2001
10. Saftey, Safety, Safety.
.
At the end of the day these are just a few things to consider, just make sure whatever you decide you are safe and your family is safe. :no:

[journeyman Mick]

Chris,
it's been about 15 months since Geno posted his question.:doh: I reckon he may have sorted it one way or another.:B 15 months isd a long time to eat takeaway/cold food & get nagged.:o

Mick

[Geno]

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I am now living in Belgium for three years (wife posted with Dept of Foreign Affairs) and it is quite relaxing letting somebody else maintain the house.

Anyway, I got the kitchen finished about 2 weeks after my post. I went "half-way" - I pulled the old oven out and got a sparkie to run the new conduit and wiring in. I then slotted the oven in and connected the wires he left to the appropriate connection points in the oven. Absolutely no problems and everything in the new kitchen is brill. BTW - I could have done it all myself, he did exactly what I would have done except he left crap (copper wire shards, insulation etc) all over the place. I wonder if they do this in their own homes? Cost was about $80 for 40 minutes which is a bit steep for mine but he has mouths to feed and possibly paid tax on the gig etc.

[Feralbilly]

I agree with Purse and Ashore. As an ex-marine engineer I was responsible for all generation and distribution systems for some pretty high powered equipment since the majority of vessels that I sailed (mostly AC and some DC) on did not carry dedicated electricians.
I always remember hooking up light globes to live 440V busbars at the back of the switchboard after the synchroscope transformer burnt out, so that we could get another generator on to the board to start a main air compressor approaching Panama Canal. We could not "black out" the vessel as we were in fairly congested waters, at night. It was interesting, as the vessel was moving about in heavy weather. Marine engineers will understand what I am talking about.

It really peeves me that I could spend all day working on the control system and contactors for a multi-speed, 100kW, 440V motor with 300Amp line fuses in each of the phases, and then come ashore and am not allowed to put a plug on the end of a cord.

There should be some way that people such as marine engineers (whose training and certification includes electrotechnology, both theory and practice) can get up to speed on things such as AS3000 and then take an examination or test, no mater how stringent) to obtain a restricted license to carry out their own electrical work.

Bill

[silentC]

There should be some way that people such as marine engineers ...
There is, it's called an apprenticeship :wink:

But seriously, it costs money to set up things like that and the question is whether it's worth it or not just so a handful of retired marine engineers can get certification to wire their own plugs.

If you were leaving the Navy and wanting to enter the electrical trades, then that's a different story but again they have apprenticeships for that.

[journeyman Mick]

WARNING: can of worms being opened!:o
Actually, you can wire your own plug. As far as I know it's not illegal for people to undertake repairs on their own appliances as long as they are not part of the fixed wiring. Probably highly inadvisable in a lot of cases, but not illegal.

Mick

[silentC]

As far as I know it's not illegal for people to undertake repairs on their own appliances
I'm not certain what the law says about it. I know it will void your warranty.

I found one link on Google that says it is legal to wire your own plugs in WA as long as it's not done for profit or employment. I can't find anything authoritative on it though, probably buried in some act of Parliament.

I suppose if it was illegal, just about everyone of us would have broken the law, probably many times over.

[journeyman Mick]

It came up in one of the "home sparky" threads. Someone got the relevant legislation/standards and it appears that it's silent about people doing their own repairs. Like you said, it will void your warranty, but more importantly, if you don't know what you're doing it may kill you or one of your family.

Mick

[silentC]

It came up in one of the "home sparky" threads
It was probably the one I tuned out of after the replies got too long for me to be bothered reading...

That being the case, there's something to be said for the argument that educating people in how to do it properly would probably be a good idea. If it's legal, then courses on how to wire plugs would probably save lives. I actually think now that the removal of wiring guides from the backs of the packets has more to do with avoiding liability than anything else.

It wouldn't have helped Geno though because stoves are usually hardwired and that would definiately be covered by the regulations.

[journeyman Mick]

It's more like it's not illegal, rather than being legal. I think it may just be an oversight in the legislation. That said, and without wanting to start the whole debate again, I think there is a place for education and some form of limited occupier license, subject to inspection.

Mick

[Metal Head]

I'm not certain what the law says about it. I know it will void your warranty.

I found one link on Google that says it is legal to wire your own plugs in WA as long as it's not done for profit or employment. I can't find anything authoritative on it though, probably buried in some act of Parliament.

I suppose if it was illegal, just about everyone of us would have broken the law, probably many times over.

That's correct Silent. As long as you are deemed "COMPENTENT" you can do your own repairs on an appliance that has a plug on the end of the power lead.

However, I wouldn't advise it.

Btw, does anyone have any idea how many people have died in the past year by carrying out this type of work?.

I haven't read about anyone dying because of it. A bit of a shock to me:rolleyes: :D.

[chrisv]

Mick,

Ooopppss...did not see the original date of posting, being a new member will have to take more notice of these things!

Just for the point of discussion, if anybody has a formal electrical qualification from outside of eg. QLD, they can complete at TAFE a subject called "ELC-001 Electrical Installation, Inspection & Testing" as a 80hr subject partime. This will then able you to apply to the Electrical Safety Office to prove your competency and proof of previous work undertaken.

But getting through the QLD TAFE sysytem is a nightmare, anything from general questions or subjkects to gain "Contractors License" is almost impossible without being about. Good luck guys

[nic]

Not wanting to throw fuel in the fire, but all these threads about certain death if you mess with anything 240V related?
Has anyone actually touched a live 240V wire ?
I know I have at least 4 or 5 times, starting when I was 10 and I'm here to tell the tale...I'm not talking about having feet in the bathtub and putting your fingers in the plug.
With the amount of miss information that goes around though I'm not surprised that people would kill themselves. Working with electricity is not dangerous (I'll get flamed for this) IF you have some basic understanding and follow simple basic rules.
As some else said, it's no more dangerous than having a DIY builder build a 2 meter high deck with a doggy fence.

I'd strongly agree with any kind of basic information (like what I was taught in high school in Europe) to educate people.
What ever you legislate or ban,people will always want to fix stuff themselves, besides has anyone actually tried to get a sparky out for a 20 second fix it job ?

Take care

Nic

[MurrayD99]

Once upon a time... I wired in a new stove. It was as straightforward as could be, no upgrade etc, switch where it should be. Put the fuse back in and "nothing" Dead. Checked the wiring, felt real bad, wondered . Got drill to take back off again - drill dead..... Ohhhh, blown the house circuits and transformer have I? Walked down drive and started at transformer up the pole.... looked OK - they generally do. Felt terrible now - took the whole district down did I? Couple of hours later the power went on again... tree across line back towards the source (is there a "source" for volts, amps and watts?). Stove worked OK after that. Whew......

[silentC]

all these threads about certain death if you mess with anything 240V related
Nobody is saying that it's certain death to mess with 240v. We are saying that it is dangerous if you don't know what you are doing (or think you do, as a lot of people seem to). The funny thing about topics like this is that until you really delve into them (by which I mean go and study, get hands on) you probably don't realise how much there is to know and how much you actually don't.

I think you need more than basic understanding and basic rules to work with electricity. Anyone can wire a plug (but probably not to Australian standards as discussed a couple of pages earlier). But beyond that, you really need to know what you are doing - and as far as I'm concerned that goes beyond the basic instruction that you might have received in high school. I learned to wire a plug in high school too but it doesn't equip me to wire up a house.

Yes I have had a few kicks in my life, some my fault and some not. I'm still here too but there are plenty of people who are not. I don't think there is any debate at all that electric shock will kill you. You and I are lucky.

[lnt9000]

It was probably the one I tuned out of after the replies got too long for me to be bothered reading...


It wouldn't have helped Geno though because stoves are usually hardwired and that would definiately be covered by the regulations.

They r not hard wired anymore, havn't been for many years, all through an iso switch, another reason why anyone not in the game doesn't know the current regs, which I might add are not freely available, everything costs dollars and if your not part of the system your not contributing to the club, an elite club it is, you don't have to be smart or have any major degrees, just do the apprenticeship, conform and don't buck the rules, pay your fees, and your welcome, no outsiders allowed!.
Plumbing is exactly the same......

[nic]

you don't have to be smart or have any major degrees, just do the apprenticeship, conform and don't buck the rules, pay your fees, and your welcome, no outsiders allowed!.

Sounds like a gang ... I thought it was for safety ... :? :?

Nic

[silentC]

They r not hard wired anymore, havn't been for many years
Last floor standing electric stove I had installed was hardwired - no plug. That was about 11 years ago. I think the oven we put in the new place might have had a plug.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Nobody is saying that it's certain death to mess with 240v. We are saying that it is dangerous if you don't know what you are doing (or think you do, as a lot of people seem to).

The worst of it is that others can be injured instead. Let's say you wire in a cook-top, turn it on and it works. Does this mean that everything is hunky-dory? Well... let's further assume that someone else comes along a bit later, wipes down the benchtop with a damp rag and gets a nasty shock when they brush against the cooktop 'cos you mixed up earth & neutral.

Still hunky-dory? No way! Fatal? Rarely. A bloody nasty thing to happen? Definitely! Not something I'd wish on a loved one...

[nic]

wipes down the benchtop with a damp rag and gets a nasty shock when they brush against the cooktop 'cos you mixed up earth & neutral.

Not to nit pick but if you ever have more than a few volts between earth and neutral you have some serious problem with your house wiring.

Back to the deck, imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic... Just as bad no ?

What I'm getting at is that there seems to be all this hocus pocus don't touch or you will probably die around electricity (and plumbing to a point) when in fact it's not more dangerous than many other activities we just do without thinking.
Look at the sharp/dangerous (jointer, shaper comes to mind) woodworking tools we have in our sheds, a child could turn a power tool on cut a big chunk of flesh out and bleed to death.. It's a stretch but not impossible.

Now imagine if there was a powerful woodworking union, that lobbied the gvt so all woodworking equipment could only be installed/used in registered business presimses by qualified people...

Nic

[silentC]

imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic
People aren't allowed to build their own hand rails either - they are supposed to be built by a licensed builder or owner builder and subject to approval - there are standards that must be followed to ensure they are safe and the builder is liable for the result of any negligence.

[journeyman Mick]

Not to take anything away froim what Silent C said, the problem with electricity is that there's generally no warnings. You can't see or smell it. A badly built handrail or stairs will be noticeable as will a leaky sewer and you can smell a gas leak. A dodgy bit of wiring that makes your sink live (and you dead) won't be. I'm a chippy by trade and it would be in my best interests,financially if carpentry was controlled to the same degree that electrical work is but I don't see the need. I'm quite confident in my ability to work with it and have done some electrical work (under supervision) but there's no way that I would rate the risks as equal.

Mick

[Iain]

If something is wired incorrectly it won't become dangerous after a settling in period, it will be alive and kicking, literally, from day one.
If in any doubt about live appliances just grab one of those little neon screwdrivers and touch it, if it lights up, don't touch.
I am not condoning amateur wiring but an earth leakage device can certainly negate a lot of the problems too, if the power snaps off every time you touch something, it is surely time to stop touching, and call in a sparky.

[nic]

Not to take anything away from what Silent C said, the problem with electricity is that there's generally no warnings.


No warning I kind of agree, fuses blowing, breakers tripping, tingles when you touch apliances, brown outs are all signs, and you can measure the risk easily (using a volt meter) if you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it.

Just for the record I wouldn't think it's wise for anyone to do anything with mains electricity if they don't at least have a reliable voltmeter/multimeter and know how to use it.

Nic

[NCArcher]

No warning I kind of agree, fuses blowing, breakers tripping, tingles when you touch apliances, brown outs are all signs, and you can measure the risk easily (using a volt meter) if you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it.

Just for the record I wouldn't think it's wise for anyone to do anything with mains electricity if they don't at least have a reliable voltmeter/multimeter and know how to use it.

Nic

What exactly are you going to measure with a voltmeter Nic.
"If you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it" That's the whole point. You cannot see electricity.
Having a voltmeter does not make it ok to work on hard wired mains equipment.
And a stove wired through an isolating switch is still hard wired. Many new houses have stoves with high amperage plugs because the hard wired stoves were being stolen before the house was finished. Now the builder just plugs it in and hands over the keys.

[nic]

That's the whole point. You cannot see electricity.

Exactly, hence why you need at least one basic tool aka the voltmeter, without it how would you tell if there is any danger ?
Once you have switched off mains how will you know if it's really off ? (voltmeter will tell you)
If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
In fact I can't think of a single thing you can't do without one, with gas you have you nose, plumbing well.. you get wet.


Nic

[Metal Head]

People aren't allowed to build their own hand rails either - they are supposed to be built by a licensed builder or owner builder and subject to approval - there are standards that must be followed to ensure they are safe and the builder is liable for the result of any negligence.

I take it Silent we are talking about wooden hand rails here?. Because it would be illegal to put up metal ones unless they are made by a certified welder:D.

[Metal Head]

Exactly, hence why you need at least one basic tool aka the voltmeter, without it how would you tell if there is any danger ?
Once you have switched off mains how will you know if it's really off ? (voltmeter will tell you)
If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
In fact I can't think of a single thing you can't do without one, with gas you have you nose, plumbing well.. you get wet.


Nic

Why not use a volt stick before using a volt or multimeter. If it lights up - when it shouldn't - then you can further investigate with the above mention equipment.

Btw, when would one use the 10A (not fused) connection on a multimeter instead of the fused one?.

Cheers
MH

[journeyman Mick]

I take it Silent we are talking about wooden hand rails here?. Because it would be illegal to put up metal ones unless they are made by a certified welder:D.

We have pretty strict licensing of building trades in Qld, but builders and owner builders may weld on their own jobs and those licensed as steel fabricators obviously can weld on any job. However, the welding must meet the relevant standards, not that most building inspectors could tell.

Mick