Forcing subbies to install tracking apps QLD

[The Spin Doctor]

Was wondering if anyone knows the laws in Queensland about forcing subcontractors to install tracking apps on their phones to go on sites.

[cava]

The Privacy Act 1988 (Com) should answer your question.

[The Spin Doctor]

The Privacy Act 1988 (Com) should answer your question.

1988... I'll leave that there for you to ponder lol.

And it's actually not about privacy.

[springwater]

What the hell is going on here!?

[cava]

1988... I'll leave that there for you to ponder lol.

And it's actually not about privacy.
It is if a person is being tracked.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

It's not about forcing people to have a mobile phone, either. But it still amounts to the same thing.

[The Spin Doctor]

It is if a person is being tracked.


That's secondary, at this point, to being forced to install the app to do ones job.

That act was written in 1988. Correct me if I'm wrong but mobile phones weren't around, let alone tracking apps, so I think it's a bit out of date to address such an issue in a specific manner.

And, have you actually read the act? Ya, that's why I thought I'd ask here.

[Hodgo]

It's not about forcing people to have a mobile phone, either. But it still amounts to the same thing.

A lot of major sites in Sydney have work method statements, key aquisition etc accessible by qr code only, in that case the company supplied the phone

its a bit much insisting someone has it on their personal phone and it has to be a smart phone

I think a lot of this tracking carry on is being pushed thru under the guise of safety especially if the guy is working on his own

I'm glad I'm retired

[cava]

The Act has been amended several times with the last amendment including Act 13, 2013.

[Mobyturns]

Go straight to the source - Contact us - Home (oaic.gov.au) (https://www.oaic.gov.au/about-us/contact-us) or in QLD Contact us | Office of the Information Commissioner Queensland (oic.qld.gov.au) (https://www.oic.qld.gov.au/about/contact-us)

If the device is supplied by an employer and they own the device they can install whatever apps they deem "necessary" to conduct their business, or to provide a "safe workplace." It's a grey area with surveillance in the workplace, and I suspect will require a few legal precedents to be set. Even so there may be limits.

Before COVID came along with more staff / employees / contractors working from home there were many employers (Telstra for one), and many more post COVID with surveillance software ./ apps on PC's, laptops, mobile devices, including vehicles to verify productivity, some with covert CCTV in many workplaces.

If the employee / contractor owns the device then I would not accept an "ultimatum" to install the app without seeking advice from the OAIC / OIC.

[Hodgo]

I think the OP was referring to subcontractors

In saying that the company has extra leverage in "forcing" the subbies to install it on their phones as in no tracking no contract

, however there is a shortage of trades people presently, so that is something they would have to weigh up between them

[TermiMonster]

I am a sub contractor, in Victoria, and I was asked to install such an app on my phone about 6 mths ago. I said sure, they sent me the link and my old blackberry couldn't down load it. What a shame, I said to the employer, If you want me, you need to give me a new phone or? He said I don''t need the app. Have been working happily without it. All the other workers reckon it's a waste of time, anyway. (I won't bother with details).
Had the same problem (?) during covid with log ins, but everywhere were required to provide paper log ins, so that's what I did. Raised the occasional eyebrow, but most people understand.

[The Spin Doctor]

Interestingly enough the publisher has pulled the original sign in app from the play store and replaced it with a new app with a similar name... My guess is they needed to as the old app was getting absolutely hammered with 1 star reviews. The tracking is really invasive. This is what it says about its access on the phone. 522633



See hears the thing also. If they need people to sign into a job site, just provide a website where you enter your details... I might grab a really old phone that won't install the app and just play dumb and say it won't work.

[Mobyturns]

I think the OP was referring to subcontractors

In saying that the company has extra leverage in "forcing" the subbies to install it on their phones as in no tracking no contract

, however there is a shortage of trades people presently, so that is something they would have to weigh up between them

I understood the OP was referring to subbies - just covering all bases.

I faced that issue with my then employer, we all did. Constantly being tracked in our job, etc. I was not as under the pump as other staff in other work areas who would be reprimanded for not having completed a job in a "timely manner." Union could not do much about it. Not sure what the sub-contracted workforce faced.

"Forcing" subbies to install an app, through no app - no job, that would raise some interesting legal issues. :rolleyes:

[Hodgo]

I understood the OP was referring to subbies - just covering all bases.

I faced that issue with my then employer, we all did. Constantly being tracked in our job, etc. I was not as under the pump as other staff in other work areas who would be reprimanded for not having completed a job in a "timely manner." Union could not do much about it. Not sure what the sub-contracted workforce faced.


"Forcing" subbies to install an app, through no app - no job, that would raise some interesting legal issues. :rolleyes:

I worked in the fire protection industry in Sydney, I was also union delegate to the plumbers and gas fitters union

sometimes we would be asked to accompany subbies on site because they didn't have the credentials to get on site off their own bat

after a while preference was given to those subbies that could hold their own, while I'm not talking about tracking at this stage, if the company can pick and choose in that instance, whats to stop them in this case and do they have to nominate any given reason

[The Spin Doctor]

Go straight to the source - Contact us - Home (oaic.gov.au) (https://www.oaic.gov.au/about-us/contact-us) or in QLD Contact us | Office of the Information Commissioner Queensland (oic.qld.gov.au) (https://www.oic.qld.gov.au/about/contact-us)

If the device is supplied by an employer and they own the device they can install whatever apps they deem "necessary" to conduct their business, or to provide a "safe workplace." It's a grey area with surveillance in the workplace, and I suspect will require a few legal precedents to be set. Even so there may be limits.

Before COVID came along with more staff / employees / contractors working from home there were many employers (Telstra for one), and many more post COVID with surveillance software ./ apps on PC's, laptops, mobile devices, including vehicles to verify productivity, some with covert CCTV in many workplaces.

If the employee / contractor owns the device then I would not accept an "ultimatum" to install the app without seeking advice from the OAIC / OIC.


Had a chat to OAIC and they couldn't say much. Said take it up with the company. If I didn't get a reasonable explanation as to why they needed such invasive tracking, after 30 days I could make a complaint... Great. Start asking questions of the company and suddenly the company I sub to gets a phone call saying I'm no longer welcome onsite because of some made up issues... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I have an old phone and most likely the company will pay for a cheap sim card at about $10/month (or I'll bury it in my expenses if they play games). I'll install the app on there, provide an email that is clearly disposable to anyone that reads it, and sign in at the gate and then turn it off till the next morning when I sign in again.

Any whoo. Thx for the links

[Cgcc]

I'm a practising barrister. I do not practice in industrial law. I cannot think of any way the practice would be "per se" unlawful. I can imagine some ways that a combination of tracking with other behaviour that could be seen as abusive could raise issues with general laws, but not tracking without more.

I don't usually jump in on law topics but I thought I would given this thread seems to represent some genuine and concerted thoughts.

Chris

[twosheds]

I hope I don't sound like too much of a numby but what is the purpose of the tracking app?

Even though I don't own a mobile and have no intention of doing so, I know that a tracking app gives a real time location (and historical track) of the mobile. To what purpose in relation to a subbies employment?

Regards
Twosheds

PS I'm not playing devils advocate or being a smarty arssey.

[Mobyturns]

I hope I don't sound like too much of a numby but what is the purpose of the tracking app?

Even though I don't own a mobile and have no intention of doing so, I know that a tracking app gives a real time location (and historical track) of the mobile. To what purpose in relation to a subbies employment?

Regards
Twosheds

PS I'm not playing devils advocate or being a smarty arssey.

Mostly, for specific sites, it is only used to keep track of who is on site and when. Pretty much an innocent intent using technology that most people .ie. subbies already have. However, for specific subbies it may subject them to more risk than they would normally experience e.g. female subbies.

As an ex-Telstra employee, I have been subjected to such invasive technology in the latter part of my career with VTrack which monitored our work vehicle's location 24/7.

That shouldn't be a problem in itself, however "management" began using the technology in ways that were very invasive and contrary to the initial communicated intent of "employee safety." We raised concerns at the implementation about that becoming a very real misuse and that IF that was the case (health and safety) where is the duress / alarm function? Funny that there was no such functionality in the system. As it also acted as a "mobile hot spot" there is the possibility that even calls from privately owned devices could be "tracked."

Certainly, plenty of staff were subjected to disciplinary action on the basis of "evidence" obtained from the technology.

As Chris states - "I cannot think of any way the practice would be "per se" unlawful." It's the misuse of the technology that is now available to "perpetrators" that creates the problems. As we all know when the technology is available someone will exploit it for their own gain.

[rustynail]

The seedy places some of my Subbies used to go you wouldn't want to track them anyway.:o

[The Spin Doctor]

I hope I don't sound like too much of a numby but what is the purpose of the tracking app?

Even though I don't own a mobile and have no intention of doing so, I know that a tracking app gives a real time location (and historical track) of the mobile. To what purpose in relation to a subbies employment?

Regards
Twosheds

PS I'm not playing devils advocate or being a smarty arssey.

I posted a screen shot of what the app permissions are. It doesn't just sign you onto a jobsite. It precisely tracks location, has access to your files, can create, change and delete files, access to your camera and microphone... I get access to the camera to scan the barcode but not to take videos, that it says it can...

If a company needed to have a sign in, all they need to do is create a barcode that any phone these days can scan that takes the tradie to a website, that a fairly low skilled web developer can produce, where they can enter their details... It is also easy to set up auto fill so you only have to scan the bar code and press enter... There literally is no need for them to need anything else.

I'm certainly not keen to have an app on my personal phone that can take control of my camera and microphone or files... Another option is I could firewall it so it can't do anything.

[The Spin Doctor]

I'm a practising barrister. I do not practice in industrial law. I cannot think of any way the practice would be "per se" unlawful. I can imagine some ways that a combination of tracking with other behaviour that could be seen as abusive could raise issues with general laws, but not tracking without more.

I don't usually jump in on law topics but I thought I would given this thread seems to represent some genuine and concerted thoughts.

Chris

Talking to the OAIC, there is a possibility that the app violates privacy in that their access to my phone for what would be needed is excessive... I.e. why do they need access to my microphone, and can activate it any time they like and record what's in range. Take pictures and video. Create, alter, and delete files - take screen shots... Problem is I have to query, one of, if not the largest building company in Australia, that uses the app to find out why they need such invasive access. That would most likely end in a call to the company I sub-contract to telling them I'm no longer allowed on their work sites, for some bullsh*t reason(s)...

[smidsy]

My brother is plumber & gas fitter, a company he subbed for ten years ago issued him with a GPS enabled Ipad and his current company has had trackers for five years.
Gone are the days of banging out the jobs and doing the paperwork while the apprentice handles the drive home, all paperwork has to be done at site.
Technically they are not forcing anything, you can choose not to be tracked and they can choose to employ someone else.
It's like everything new, some people resist it - I bet there was guys who kicked & screamed when PPE and testing/tagging was made law.
My first job in a steel factory in 1985 I was told steel cap boots were not compolsory - but I was also told that should I suffer a foot injury while not wearing steel caps that I wouldn't be covered by workers comp.

[woodPixel]

Twisties and chip packets accidentally left next to GPS receivers or on top of a mobile phone will block signals.

Also, just sayin, that an $8 key-fob can be bought on AliExpress that emits a corrupt GPS signal for a few metres. Runs on a watch battery for months.

[The Spin Doctor]

My brother is plumber & gas fitter, a company he subbed for ten years ago issued him with a GPS enabled Ipad and his current company has had trackers for five years.
Gone are the days of banging out the jobs and doing the paperwork while the apprentice handles the drive home, all paperwork has to be done at site.
Technically they are not forcing anything, you can choose not to be tracked and they can choose to employ someone else.
It's like everything new, some people resist it - I bet there was guys who kicked & screamed when PPE and testing/tagging was made law.
My first job in a steel factory in 1985 I was told steel cap boots were not compolsory - but I was also told that should I suffer a foot injury while not wearing steel caps that I wouldn't be covered by workers comp.

So you're ok with being tracked 24 hours a day? You see the app doesn't just turn off because you signed out. Remember, these apps don't turn off... Have your microphone record you when you don't know? Have your camera record video when you don't know? Have screen shots of your activity when you sit, say for 5 mins... while you're txting someone in a "private" conversation.

Now also, remember I'm a subbie. I don't charge by the hour. So where and how long I sit is none of anyones F$$^ing business if I"m keeping to the schedule...

Answer honestly or not at all.

[The Spin Doctor]

Twisties and chip packets accidentally left next to GPS receivers or on top of a mobile phone will block signals.

Also, just sayin, that an $8 key-fob can be bought on AliExpress that emits a corrupt GPS signal for a few metres. Runs on a watch battery for months.


Thx for that, but a second phone that I turn off 10 seconds after I sign in is better.

[Jaded62]

Don't know about tracking apps but the last few projects I've been on the induction, TBT and sign-on has all been via an app. Signonsite will sign you in if you are in the vicinity of the job.

[Mobyturns]

So you're ok with being tracked 24 hours a day? You see the app doesn't just turn off because you signed out. Remember, these apps don't turn off... Have your microphone record you when you don't know? Have your camera record video when you don't know? Have screen shots of your activity when you sit, say for 5 mins... while you're txting someone in a "private" conversation.

Now also, remember I'm a subbie. I don't charge by the hour. So where and how long I sit is none of anyones F$$^ing business if I"m keeping to the schedule...

Answer honestly or not at all.

That is the big issue! Excessive and non-employment related tracking.

If, as a subbie, you work for more than one contractor who implements this technology then the risk of misuse increases.

IF they are so interested in exactly what you are doing at any point in time raises the question are you truly an independent sub-contractor or an employee???

Employees may not have choices with technology supplied by their employer however truly independent sub-contractors do have a choice.

Telstra initially would not supply me with a "work mobile" so I point blank refused to discuss work related matters on my privately owned mobile device/s.

Times have moved on and technology is becoming very intrusive - Big Brother stuff.

[forrestmount]

Twisties and chip packets accidentally left next to GPS receivers or on top of a mobile phone will block signals.

Also, just sayin, that an $8 key-fob can be bought on AliExpress that emits a corrupt GPS signal for a few metres. Runs on a watch battery for months.

You don’t want to be caught with one of these the ACMA will make their budget with fines you will need to pay.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[AJ.]

I am truck driver and last Friday I was told I needed to install a sign in app in order to deliver a load to Woolworths warehouse. I didn’t even finish reading the terms before deciding there was no way I would install the app, apparently there is no other option in order to deliver to woolies.

I delivered the load elsewhere and it had to be reloaded and taken to the warehouse by another contractor.

There really needs to be some laws to protect people from these invasions into our personal information. I am fortunate I can afford to say no, quit my job if needed, unfortunately too many have little choice.

Cheers Andrew

[The Spin Doctor]

I am truck driver and last Friday I was told I needed to install a sign in app in order to deliver a load to Woolworths warehouse. I didn’t even finish reading the terms before deciding there was no way I would install the app, apparently there is no other option in order to deliver to woolies.

I delivered the load elsewhere and it had to be reloaded and taken to the warehouse by another contractor.

There really needs to be some laws to protect people from these invasions into our personal information. I am fortunate I can afford to say no, quit my job if needed, unfortunately too many have little choice.

Cheers Andrew


I'm in a similar situation as you in that I can tell them to go pound sand and quit, and find a job tomorrow... But I'll play their game, for now, in that my old cheap phone with the app is only turned on to sign in and then shut off immediately after and thrown in the glove box.

I could play with them and hide it in the toilet for the entire day, day in and day out, and let them scratch their head over that...

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

If it's a walk-on site, just take in a lockable box and leave it near the entrance, break-room or whatever. Throw a natty old pair of gloves and the cheapo phone in that every day after you enter.

If asked why, "I only carry the tools I need. Not gonna risk the phone dropping out of my pocket while I'm..."

Best of all, if some mongrel nicks your box, well, when you report the theft (You call this a safe site? :o) you can tell them it has a tracker in it. :wink:

[Mobyturns]

Interestingly enough the publisher has pulled the original sign in app from the play store and replaced it with a new app with a similar name... My guess is they needed to as the old app was getting absolutely hammered with 1 star reviews. The tracking is really invasive. This is what it says about its access on the phone. 522633



See hears the thing also. If they need people to sign into a job site, just provide a website where you enter your details... I might grab a really old phone that won't install the app and just play dumb and say it won't work.

Scary permissions! A wolf in sheep's clothing! Also, a nice backdoor for hackers I guess.

[Bushmiller]

I am thinking that George Orwell would have gone "appshit" if he had had access to this kind of information. He wrote 1984 in 1948. The Thought Police are becoming a reality. We don't have that type of phone security at our workplace, but we do have camera surveillance with sufficient clarity that causes you to think twice about picking your nose!

Regards
Paul

[springwater]

The IT wackers need to be brought into line. TheyÂ’re usually socially inept creatures unfortunately. WeÂ’re talking civil liberties here and deprivations of, not some computer game! Some decisions made by said self entitled people have huge privacy/social ramifications. Remember the libs tried to bring in an ID card? The MYCKY fiasco? How about ROBO debt? To name a few! IÂ’m sure youÂ’ve tried to sort something out with Telstra, apparently a communications company, that doesnÂ’t communicate but their billing system is $o slick and if you donÂ’t pay for some reason youÂ’re passed on to some mongrel debt collector because the computer says so. ItÂ’s time we charged $ for our time dealing with such lunatics! PhewÂ…better go for a walk now 😊

[GraemeCook]

The IT wackers need to be brought into line. TheyÂ’re usually socially inept creatures unfortunately. ...

Impossible!

I was at uni in the 1960's when the first computer (*) arrived on campus and the first IT courses started. To enrol in an IT major - no degrees then - you had to pass an "IT aptitude test" conducted by a university psychologist. In those days most programmers had PhD's and much programming was in binary and machine code which required obsessive attention to detail.

Years later I asked one of the psychologists what the "IT aptitude tests" were about. Her response: "Essentially, we were looking for people with obsessive personality disorder."

Now they self select.

(* Note: computer is singular; there was only one.)

[GraemeCook]

If there is a major disaster, will that app help find you?

[Jaded62]

Sadly for the conspiracy theorists.............these apps all about cost and nothing else. Apps like sinonsite save the builders money through a much reduced need to WHS staff, ensure the law is abided by, save the subbies money by not having to have a crew stand around for hours doing rubbish paperwork.

I don't like big brother, Google, FB and alike but do I care if the Chinese Govt (or even our own) know what I'm up to? No.,,, it'd be a boring read for someone.

That said, I did get my 5th microchip (aka COVID) shot on Thursday so maybe I'm not in charge of my facilties.

[GraemeCook]

A daughter of a good friend had an extremely nasty marriage bust up just after Christmas and she and her two toddlers finished up in a women's shelter for a few weeks. As they were being driven there, her counsellers removed the SIM card from her phone, so that it could not be used to trace her whereabouts - standard operating procedure, I am told. She quickly got a new SIM card.

Then. with her agreement, the old SIM was handed to some "active supporters" who happened to work in the airline industry. As it moved around the country it created false locations for anyone trying to locate the victim.

This is virtually the reverse of what is happening on building sites!

[jack620]

I clicked Thanks instead of Reply to the previous post. I don't see how swapping a SIM card prevents someone tracking you if you have tracking enabled on your phone. What it will do is stop the offender calling or sending harassing text messages. I also don't see how inserting the old SIM into someone else's phone allows them to track that phone's position. You can put your SIM card in my phone, but nobody except your mobile phone carrier is going to know where I am.

[GraemeCook]

I do not know the details Jack beyond what I was told. Basically, that somehow the location was related to the SIM, that the location of the shelter was protected and that the false trail was laid.