ADVICE PLEASE - Substandard Painting Workmanship

[mortice&tennon]

Good morning, Please could I have some advice/thoughts on this.

I engaged a painter to paint a 1920's rendered house with timber windows. Ahead of his engagement I provided a detailed specification sheet for how each surface was to be prepared and painted, including the undercoat and paint be used.

When I arrived to inspect progress on the windows I noticed the surface imperfections and peeling paint that were visible before painting commenced were visible through the newly applied gloss, I was told that "you can't see the imperfections until the gloss is applied - I will patch them up". It was soon apparent that the specifications in terms of surface preparation (which included washing, sanding and feathering edges and filling where needed (and re-priming) had not been followed.

Should I:
1. Dismiss the painter?
2. Require that he sand back to the remove the coatings applied and restart?
3. Something else?

Would value the thoughts of any who have been in a similar position.

Many thanks

[Chief Tiff]

Do you have written evidence that he agreed to your specifications and quoted accordingly? If so then you potentially have grounds that he is in breach of contract.
My thoughts would be to immediately dismiss him as he has not followed your directions; seeing as he took shortcuts to do the job I wouldn’t trust him to properly rectify them.

You really need to be following the advice of a lawyer though rather than the thoughts and opinions of total strangers on an online forum :wink:

[Camelot]

Did the painter(s) have your specification before you engaged their services? Is the painter on a hourly rate?

If you are not there all the time get them to take pic's when they have reached different stages of your spec for your approval before moving onto the next step,.

Painting old properties/woodwork is 99% preparation and you need people with the right skill set and patience to do this type of work

[mortice&tennon]

Thank you Chief Tiff and Camelot - really appreciate your replies.

I did not ask the painter to sign to acknowledge the specs (which I gave him by hand) - I have been spoiled by having a handful of tradesmen who know me and know old houses which has made life easy for me and them (I don't ask for quotes or worry that the job will be done properly - they charge a fair price and know they will be paid quickly).

My instinct is to do as Chief Tiff suggests, and let him go. I would rather forgo the several thousand I have paid as a progress payment than live with a job poorly done.

Camelot offers a potential solution - I will see if the painter is prepared to make good - and I will approve each stage, otherwise - will look for someone else.


Thank you both again.

[Simplicity]

Too me this sounds like a communication break down, also it’s hard too comment as we do not know the whole story,
Having dealt with many clients over 15 years, communication is fundamental.

Saying that an with out knowing how big the job is an how much your paying it’s hard to give advice.

I’ve told some people who have asked for quotes from me what they want, when I hear I want the Best work at a cheap price, I always respond with so “What do you want cheap or good”

Cheers Matt.

[mortice&tennon]

Thank you Matt

You will never hear that from me. You will hear I want a good quality job at a price that works for both of us.

Your point about communication is well made. In this case the specs could not have been clearer...

Cheers

[forrestmount]

My experience is that you will,need to pay an hourly rate if you want a job done to higher specifications particularly if the job has a high amount of preparation. Most people simply don’t want to pay for the time required. You also need a tradesman with patience as already mentioned.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Mobyturns]

Reminds me of a sign I saw decades ago on a freight company office wall! There are three fundamental deliverables - Quality, Timing, Cost! or Good, Fast, Cheap of which you can choose two!

You can have a good job done fast but it won't be cheap, OR a fast, cheap job but it won' be good OR a good cheap job that won't be fast (i.e. done when they have no other work - fill ins.)

I agree 110% - communication is very important, as is a cool head! Most disputes arise due to a misinterpretation or lack of a common understanding of the scope of work, in this instance surface prep, number of coats (primer, under & top coats), quality of materials, quality of finish aesthetics etc.

Without formalized proof (written / signed doc / contract) it becomes a "he said, she said" argument. Experienced and appropriately qualified tradespersons will typically use standard contracts with agreed specifications and a "day book" to record any changes in scope or in the client's directions (signed by both parties) ..... because they have been down the road with a client who disputes the original agreements.

Often there is an underlying reason for the lack of a "contract" and typically it is linked to either party not wanting to meet certain obligations, i.e. workmanship guarantees, unlicenced "trades", paying the appropriate rate, avoiding tax, super, GST etc.

There are some potential paths for you to follow,



negotiate a solution with the painter/s owner or foreperson - not the trade staff!!!!
the small claims tribunal - civil_factsheet_3.pdf (magistratescourt.wa.gov.au) (https://www.magistratescourt.wa.gov.au/_files/civil_factsheet_3.pdf)
initiate a formal "Disputes and warranties with tradespeople" claim - Disputes and warranties with tradespeople | Department of Mines, Industry Regulation and Safety (commerce.wa.gov.au) (https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consumer-protection/disputes-and-warranties-tradespeople)
Australian Consumer Law - Consumer guarantees – business rights and responsibilities | Department of Mines, Industry Regulation and Safety (commerce.wa.gov.au) (https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consumer-protection/consumer-guarantees-business-rights-and-responsibilities)


Hopefully its a simple misunderstanding that can be easily rectified.

[Beardy]

Without knowing the full details it is hard to comment but In fairness to the painter, he is right in saying that the gloss highlights the feathered edges and what appears to be a sound sanded old finish can lift once subsequent coats are applied

Before jumping on him and dragging him through the high court how about just talking the issue through and see how it goes?
But if you don’t have confidence in the guy being able to rectify the situation and give you a the job you are looking for then engage another painter

The flip side of this is what if you give a wrong specification and the job failed? would you accept the consequences or flip it over to “he is the tradesmen so he should of done it right regardless of what I told him”
The answer under the law is the latter and he would be help accountable for the work unless he had it in writing that he advised you it won’t work but you directed him to do it that way regardless

All the best with sorting it out and hope you get the outcome you are looking for

[Camelot]

Without knowing the full details it is hard to comment but In fairness to the painter, he is right in saying that the gloss highlights the feathered edges and what appears to be a sound sanded old finish can lift once subsequent coats are applied

Before jumping on him and dragging him through the high court how about just talking the issue through and see how it goes?
But if you don’t have confidence in the guy being able to rectify the situation and give you a the job you are looking for then engage another painter

The flip side of this is what if you give a wrong specification and the job failed? would you accept the consequences or flip it over to “he is the tradesmen so he should of done it right regardless of what I told him”
The answer under the law is the latter and he would be help accountable for the work unless he had it in writing that he advised you it won’t work but you directed him to do it that way regardless

All the best with sorting it out and hope you get the outcome you are looking for

If the woodwork still has original lead based paint then it would all need to be taken down to the bare wood, it's no good sanding part of it back to the wood this allows the new finish to get under the feathered areas and lift the old finish and the job looks a mess and the more you try to sand these areas to get rid of the mess, all you are doing is pushing the feathered area further along the timber and it will lift again once more finish is applied.

A painter of old properties would know lead paint is better removed with a heat gun, but H&S don't like the fumes caused by this method and sanding takes a lot of time, like I have already stated preparation is 99% of the work.

From what I have seen on most building sites painters don't do much prep work they seem to assume the chippy is responsible for sanding out spindle moulder marks left be the cutters, it just seems to be the way things are these days.

[Beardy]

If the woodwork still has original lead based paint then it would all need to be taken down to the bare wood, it's no good sanding part of it back to the wood this allows the new finish to get under the feathered areas and lift the old finish and the job looks a mess and the more you try to sand these areas to get rid of the mess, all you are doing is pushing the feathered area further along the timber and it will lift again once more finish is applied.

A painter of old properties would know lead paint is better removed with a heat gun, but H&S don't like the fumes caused by this method and sanding takes a lot of time, like I have already stated preparation is 99% of the work.

From what I have seen on most building sites painters don't do much prep work they seem to assume the chippy is responsible for sanding out spindle moulder marks left be the cutters, it just seems to be the way things are these days.

I agree with what you have said but I am not so much talking about the work or process as none of us know what type of paint or what specifications he wrote. ( he does say he specified feathering of edges though)
What i am saying is issues like this happen often with trades on a building site and you have to work through them practically. We dont know if the painter has provided a quotation outlining what he proposes to do and that may not necessarily align with the client’s suggested specification.
It may well be that he is not the right painter for the job and he needs another one or it could just be something that they need to work through together and move forward with the job
As Simplicity said in post #5 it is hard / inappropriate to give advice without understanding the whole situation but it certainly isnt something that the lawyers need to get involved in.

[Camelot]

Yes more information would be needed like knowing the type of paint applied before being able to comment further, my guess is that the original lead based paint has never been fully removed and over the years further oil (enamel) coats have been added on top of the lead paint, so hopefully the painter is not trying to add an acrylic based paint, which would never work on top of lead/oil based paint.

Not sure the OP is looking to go legal, but if the painter gave a written quote and never referred to the OP's spec within that quote and the OP instructed the painter to procced based on that quote, then the painters quote becomes the contract document and even if the OP's spec was signed by the painter or even acknowledged in a written way the painters quote would still be classed has being the lead document because the OP instructed the work to proceed based on that quote.

So I would say that the only people to win from going legal would be the solicitors.

[mortice&tennon]

Thank you to all who provided constructive thoughts.

I spoke with the painter this morning - I offered a way through, but it very quickly became apparent that he no longer wanted to complete the work, and he offered to leave.

This was the best result for all.

woodPixel's post of yesterday that appears to have been deleted contained some sound advice - if someone is not up to the job, let them go early.

One poor trade in 20 years - I have probably been very fortunate.

Thanks again.

[jack620]

Both of Woodpixel’s posts are deleted. What gives?

[woodPixel]

I deleted them. My advice was unsound.

[Mobyturns]

Thank you to all who provided constructive thoughts.

I spoke with the painter this morning - I offered a way through, but it very quickly became apparent that he no longer wanted to complete the work, and he offered to leave.

This was the best result for all.

woodPixel's post of yesterday that appears to have been deleted contained some sound advice - if someone is not up to the job, let them go early.

One poor trade in 20 years - I have probably been very fortunate.

Thanks again.

Sounds like cool heads prevailed. :) Best outcome for all, a few ruffled feathers but no real harm done. Sometimes the client / trades match just does not work out.

My parents were small - medium traditional home builders for 30 years up to the late '80's. They experienced quite a bit from clients pulling a swifty, disputes over sub-trades workmanship etc however they always attempted to resolve matters before they escalated. Contracts, specifications, and a "day book" saved their bacon with no disputes ever being formalized. Over-spending by clients on prime cost items was always an issue.

Times have changed as far as the legal landscape goes with the options of mediation without legal representatives before a mediator or magistrate

[Cgcc]

I work in commercial disputes in a professional capacity. I do not think there is any categorically correct answer.

The one thing I am confident in stating is that disputes are very rarely easy to resolve satisfactorily. If you can avoid it by talking with them and negotiating an outcome you can live with, you should try to do so despite the discomfort.

I know that is easy to say as opposed to doing but I thought worth piping in.

Chris


Good morning, Please could I have some advice/thoughts on this.

I engaged a painter to paint a 1920's rendered house with timber windows. Ahead of his engagement I provided a detailed specification sheet for how each surface was to be prepared and painted, including the undercoat and paint be used.

When I arrived to inspect progress on the windows I noticed the surface imperfections and peeling paint that were visible before painting commenced were visible through the newly applied gloss, I was told that "you can't see the imperfections until the gloss is applied - I will patch them up". It was soon apparent that the specifications in terms of surface preparation (which included washing, sanding and feathering edges and filling where needed (and re-priming) had not been followed.

Should I:
1. Dismiss the painter?
2. Require that he sand back to the remove the coatings applied and restart?
3. Something else?

Would value the thoughts of any who have been in a similar position.

Many thanks

[Pearo]

From what I have seen on most building sites painters don't do much prep work they seem to assume the chippy is responsible for sanding out spindle moulder marks left be the cutters, it just seems to be the way things are these days.

I would be interested in peoples opinion on standards v cost. I have always use linea board so no sanding out, but if I used timber I would not expect the painters to sand it smooth (its bad enough asking them to use a nail punch on the interior!!). Even when you merge Linea board with existing weatherboard with minimal prep the outcome is pretty decent.

For a larger built in Queenslander inside and out, I would expect to pay about 30k+ for a medium level finish, and 50k+ for a higher end finish. By the sounds of it, neither would meet the standards of most here.

[rwbuild]

It is the carpenters job to punch all nails.
Fairly standard trade practice for painters on new project type homes is internal 2 coats, external 2 depending on the type of external materials, and that's if the pre paint trades have done a fair and reasonable job and the integrity of the builder or supervisor.
Weather on the day also has an impact on quality ie: too hot or too cold, too much humidity, these all require different techniques
Quality new homes minimum 3 coats depending on finish specified and material being used.
In both cases, certain colours require an extra coat to obtain coverage or depth of colour.

[Beardy]

Further to what Ray has said the major paint suppliers also provide a special colour selection chart for the project home builders clients to select their colour scheme off. These colours are specifically chosen for their superior coverage abilities to allow the two coat system to provide an acceptable finished product. At that level the value for money is terrific and then you move up the scale of diminishing return for the price point just like what happens with any product or service

[Pearo]

It is the carpenters job to punch all nails.

And God help you if you miss one!!! I have had painters almost walk off the job because a couple of nails are sitting proud!!

[rwbuild]

Yep, I have dealt with "Karen" type painters..... "Don't come back"