Rubbing out an Oil Based Polyurethane With Ubeaut EEE-Ultra Shine?

[EagerBeaver71]

Just placed a large order with U-Beaut Polishes. Among the stuff I've ordered is EEE-Ultra shine which I got because I wanted to experiment with rubbing out a decent oil based polyurethane finish. I alot of people hate polyurethane because its a bugger to rub out or use, but I'd like to give this stuff a go as it states you can use it on polyurethane
finishes.

I want to know if anyone has used the EEE on poly?. I'm also interested in what methods you fine folks use to get a decent gloss poly finish that looks natural and not like a plastic.

[woodPixel]

I used to do this a lot.

There are probably quite a few posts where I've shared the method.... But it's simple.

-- Wait a week to harden
-- A little water with dish washing sauce
-- 320 wet with a block until it's matt (eliminate shiny bits as they are the low bits)
-- 800, 1500 grit wet and dry with a ROS (super quick)
-- 3000 dry with a ROS
-- Waffle buff pad with Meguiars ShineX on the ROS.
-- wipe with a microfiber and marvel at your skillz

One can also use any car detailing polish that removes holograms, which is usually ~3000 grit. Only a tiny amount is needed.

Easy.

* Manzerna 3500, 3M Perfect It, Chemical Guys 3rd stage, Meguiars Ultimate. These finish polishes completely remove swirls and holograms and are so easy to use its embarrassing.

[EagerBeaver71]

I used to do this a lot.

There are probably quite a few posts where I've shared the method.... But it's simple.

-- Wait a week to harden
-- A little water with dish washing sauce
-- 320 wet with a block until it's matt (eliminate shiny bits as they are the low bits)
-- 800, 1500 grit wet and dry with a ROS (super quick)
-- 3000 dry with a ROS
-- Waffle buff pad with Meguiars ShineX on the ROS.
-- wipe with a microfiber and marvel at your skillz

One can also use any car detailing polish that removes holograms, which is usually ~3000 grit. Only a tiny amount is needed.

Easy.

* Manzerna 3500, 3M Perfect It, Chemical Guys 3rd stage, Meguiars Ultimate. These finish polished completely remove swirls and holograms and are so easy to use its embarrassing.

Thanks for the reply Evan, Its probably abit too early for me but whats "ROS"?. I'm going to give this method a go it sounds
excellent mate - thanks for sharing!. Do you get any witness lines?, how many coats of poly do you give the wood?.

I'm going through all your posts now!.

[havabeer69]

random orbit sander

[EagerBeaver71]

random orbit sander

Bingo!, must have had a brain fart at 4 in the morning when I saw the post lol

[woodPixel]

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f98/amazing-video-greenfield-guitar-214300?highlight=polyurethane plus comment 10

Acoustic Guitar makers are absolute masters at finishing. Watch this video from this timeframe as a sample of how its done: Making a Guitar | Handcrafted Woodworking | Où se trouve: Greenfield Guitars - YouTube (https://youtu.be/sAeXskZHC2o?t=2409)

We, as woodworkers, could learn a LOT from these masters of detail. If they sell a $15 to 30k guitar, its going to be perfect.... if we imitate these processes we'll get very close to the top of our game. My personal opinion is the woodworking industry has given us the bum-steer into thinking we are being novel in our ideas and approaching new and unexpected problems... that new products are the latest miracle cures or something new provides a solution to a problem only we have.

This video also is very good..... O'Brien has a few outstanding videos on finish and repairs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92YWLyqwjYI

[EagerBeaver71]

If you want a gloss finish in poly, how would you go about sanding and then rubbing out the finish on detailed area's like moldings, turned legs, carvings etc?. Is there a way to deal with witness lines with poly?.

[woodPixel]

No witness lines in poly - same with Nitro and shellac.

Poly eats into the previous layer and bonds with it.


As for detailed areas? Carefully!

I've only ever done mouldings on boxes, but it was simply a matter of making a little roll of 800 sandpaper and using a finger. As far as polishing... perhaps a drill or Dremel?

Perhaps someone else can answer that.



Edit - thought to clarify. Poly cannot be repaired. If one sands through it after its dry, its a BBIIGG problem. One cannot sand a patch back to wood and re-poly just that patch. The whole object needs to be refinished again. Scratches are different, one can repair those with the "CA method". When I advised of witness lines, I felt you may be talking of seeing "layers" during the rubbing back process. One does not see this effect.

With Nitro, it IS repairable. It was my favourite finish for boxes and pens as its damned fast. A few sprays and an hour later, polish, done. Easy. :D

With Shellac, I've not enough experience using it, despite it being a favourite. Ive only done many many tests on many test pieces. I havent yet the hang of applying it properly. :C

[EagerBeaver71]

Thanks Evan, I'll continue experimenting and see how it looks, cheers for your help mate.

[woodPixel]

You mean poly as in Polyurethane Varnish coats blend into each other?.

Yes, before they cure. After they cure, you are making an onion. Curing takes a week... or so.

I've use some acid catalysed sprayable polys when making kids toys and those are UNBELIEVABLE to use, but they are not home-products as they go off pretty fast, need good spray gear and respirators. Don't breath this stuff in = doom!

The polys I'm discussing are the consumer ones from Bunnings like Valspar, Minwax wipe on, or Cabots cabothane clear (my favourite)

[woodPixel]

Here is a sample I did earlier.

This was using a sanding sealer, which I HATED and two PAINTED layers of poly.

This was prior to rub-out.

As one can see, by decent prep and sanding flat, and a bit of thinner in the poly, it sits pretty flat even without the super-dooper gear.

516529


edit - look! Its now in a spray can. Nice! Cabot's 300g Cabothane Gloss Oil Based Polyurethane Aerosol | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224981118904)

[EagerBeaver71]

Here is a sample I did earlier.

This was using a sanding sealer, which I HATED and two PAINTED layers of poly.

This was prior to rub-out.

Looks good, how long did you wait between each coat of poly?.

[EagerBeaver71]

This was prior to rub-out.

When its dry, how much of a rubbing out do you do?, until everything is completely matt?.

[EagerBeaver71]

I should have just posted one reply as I keep thinking of more questions!. Can you just use a rubbing compound after its dry instead of sandpaper?.

[woodPixel]

I should have just posted one reply as I keep thinking of more questions!. Can you just use a rubbing compound after its dry instead of sandpaper?.

About an hour when using brush. I believe I waited about 30 minutes between sprays.

If spraying, its like all spraying, there is a process that needs finesse.... one cannot simply rely on the cans instructions or even my blathering's. Test, test, test. When spraying Generally, I dust coat, wait 5 minutes to flash, then wet-coat overlapping edges with 15 minute intervals and perhaps (a guess) 4 or 5 coats. Never let a run to develop, nor never get too heavy handed. Many thin coats is superior. Temperature changes everything, as does humidity. Don't do it in the sun or at dusk.

One must wait a good time before sanding. Poly takes a long time to cross link and harden. Its not like paint which simply evaporates, it undergoes some sort of chemical reaction which is the source of its power.

I believe I waited a full week before I sanded.


When its dry, how much of a rubbing out do you do?, until everything is completely matt?.

Yep! Until its DEAD FLAT. Sand and look for shiny spots. When they are all gone, finish sand and polish.


Looks good, how long did you wait between each coat of poly?.

As above. :)



If anyone else wishes to chime in.... be my guest! :)

[EagerBeaver71]

Well I think that sure as hell covers the questions I have, thanks again Evan.

[woodPixel]

Here are two videos to watch

He takes his time to go over the details. They are not edited particularly well but they are packed with information. He uses Epoxy, which is another excellent choice but one I avoided as it wasn't OPs question :)


https://youtu.be/MPXzHzmHbiw
https://youtu.be/9LXYAMSuX8Y


Edit... and this I recalled which goes over the whole POLY rubbing out process....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q94PuccM_s4

[homey]

+1 for all WoodPixel’s comments re luthiers. These guys really are champs when it comes to finishing. Some brilliant YouTube videos on high gloss guitar finishes using superglue (!), shellac, nitro etc. Well worth a trawl.

wP - thanks for the info on poly bonding layer on layer if it’s not fully cured. I didn’t know that. May I ask what the problem was with the sanding sealer (F&W)? I generally use Acquacoat but have been thinking of trying the Feast & Watson stuff.

I stopped using poly when I discovered pre-cat lacquer. So easy to use, fast and also repairable. Since I’m only doing boxes in small numbers I buy the Mohawk pre-cat in rattle cans from Luthiers Supplies. There are those luthiers again!!

Regards,

Brian

[woodPixel]

WP - thanks for the info on poly bonding layer on layer if it’s not fully cured. I didn’t know that. May I ask what the problem was with the sanding sealer (F&W)? I generally use Acquacoat but have been thinking of trying the Feast & Watson stuff.

I stopped using poly when I discovered pre-cat lacquer. So easy to use, fast and also repairable. Since I’m only doing boxes in small numbers I buy the Mohawk pre-cat in rattle cans from Luthiers Supplies. There are those luthiers again!!

The FW sanding sealer absolutely needs to be put on in very thin coats and sanded between each. It is unforgiving in this. I tried due to my own lack of patience to add either thicker layers or several before sanding and its a disaster.

My mistake! I assumed it would form a sandable surface that could readily be flattened. Its not. Its not a "pore filler", more of a grain stiffener.

It also absolutely hates the cold. Since its cool here in the ...cooler... months it clags in the can and just doesn't set properly.

As I said, I hate it. Its ruined several jobs and tripled the effort on them, so its coloured my opinion somewhat! :)



I've tried some other stuff such as shellac (does well) and AquaCoat, which is the best so far*. AC still has its issues in that it must be applied thinly, but it dries readily and since luthiers love it it must be good (they've no time or love for anything that ruins 500 hours of work)

On Pre-cat, its great. Mowhawk is GREAT. Its $$$ though :( Shame such things are so hard to get here at a non-wincing price.

I've yet to do a CA or epoxy finish, which is odd as I've both! The idea of an epoxy finish is rather interesting!

(several top end box makers I follow use epoxy)


On Poly layers and cure-impermeability, I've previously read this info in several places and has been my method due to such readings. I could be very wrong and will readily accept rebufff/correction from those in the know!


* I used AC only this month for my sad attempts at shellac finishing practice. Its still my "favourite" pore filler. I've yet to try pumice et.al.

[EagerBeaver71]

The FW sanding sealer absolutely needs to be put on in very thin coats and sanded between each. It is unforgiving in this. I tried due to my own lack of patience to add either thicker layers or several before sanding and its a disaster.

I had the same trouble when applying the stuff on my grandfather clock to seal the stain. The stuff is cr4p, had to strip it back and start again.

I think I'm going to learn how to spray finish next week. I've had this Air Compressor and two spray guns for over 3 years now and never tried using them. Hopefully the specs are ok for spraying finish. its a BlackRidge BD140D from Supercheap. Thoughts?

[woodPixel]

I think I'm going to learn how to spray finish next week. I've had this Air Compressor and two spray guns for over 3 years now and never tried using them. Hopefully the specs are ok for spraying finish. its a BlackRidge BD140D from Supercheap. Thoughts?

I've many posts and replies on spraying. I did A LLOOTTT of spraying over the years.

For this stuff, anything will do. It isn't car paint.

Perhaps the only thing that will zoing you will be moisture. Compressors generate a lot of it. Best to filter it out before it gets into the hoses/gun/juice - otherwise it will cause White Dots Of Death, plus other unwanted and aggravating artistic effects...

Perhaps try a H2O filter such as this one by Amaxi (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Amaxi-Phase-3-Air-Filter-Dryer-100psi-Toilet-Roll-Filter/284112088834). Its what I use for everything. Its on 24x7. These are rather generically called "toilet roll filters" and do an absolutely outstanding job. There are other makers of this kind of thing.


As far as the compressor is concerned, it will get hot if you run it a lot. Ensure one changes the oil, this really helps longevity. Also noise of the thing thrashing will get to you. Find a method to reduce that.

My last thoughts are simply to use high enough pressure to atomise the juices being sprayed properly... sputtering and orange peel are a sign of too little pressure and too thick. Don't fear a little thinner until it behaves. Get a "wet edge", use a fan shape (not circle), do 1/3rd overlaps, practice on big sheets of cardboard! DONT do it in the sun.

[EagerBeaver71]

Perhaps the only thing that will zoing you will be moisture. compressors generate a lot of it. Best to filter it out before it gets into the hoses/gun/juice - otherwise it will cause White Dots Of Death, plus other unwanted and aggravating artistic effects...

I got one of these: Blackridge Air Inline Water Trap | Supercheap Auto (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-inline-water-trap/340079.html)

Would that be any good?.

Great tips on spraying by the way thanks mate.

[homey]

EB - If you're new to spraying I recommend you read ABCs of Spray Finishing". This was put out by Devilbiss year ago but gets updated from time to time. If you search for that title you'll see it turns up all over the web.

Example:https://www.autorefinishdevilbiss.com/Portals/0/ABCs-of-Spray-Finishing.pdf

woodPixel: I seem to recall your bought a new compressor as you needed a quiet machine around your home. My memory says it was a Chicago HUSH or something similar. Has this been successful?

Thanks for the FWS sanding sealer feedback. Definitely not looking for a grain raiser. :o I'll stick with Acquacoat for now. When I was in the UK I used Mylands Sanding Sealer which is shellac with talc I think. 2000 Pale Shellac Sealer Basecoat – Mylands (https://mylands.com/products/2000-pale-shellac-sealer-basecoat).

Haven't used epoxy as a coating - I'm thinking it would be a messy process? I have used CA glue a few times with moderate success - such as this little ebony Macassar box:

516581

Thanks again for the advice.

Regards,

Brian

[EagerBeaver71]

EB - If you're new to spraying I recommend you read ABCs of Spray Finishing". This was put out by Devilbiss year ago but gets updated from time to time. If you search for that title you'll see it turns up all over the web.

Thanks for the link Brian. The only spray painting I've done is with rattle cans, I had to repair and spray the side of my dear old dads car once when I was scraped it during parking (reckless teenage years!).

[woodPixel]

woodPixel: I seem to recall your bought a new compressor as you needed a quiet machine around your home. My memory says it was a Chicago HUSH or something similar. Has this been successful?

Thanks for the FWS sanding sealer feedback.

My "review" of FWS is just my own experience. I've used other various products and quickly realised they weren't for me, or the requisite skill was absent... E.g shellac

I don't bag them due to my own incompetence... Or I don't think I do :)

The FWS should, in my opinion, be classified as a crime. It is worse than "not fit for purpose", it's an active agent of destruction, a dreadful product, and one that simply induces dismay and rage - in equal quantities.

OTOH, the products produced by our Benevolent Overlord are wholesome and lovely, akin to squirrels, kittens and sleeping babies.i highly recommend them.

NOW! Compressors!

Yes, I've a HUSH by Chicago Pneumatic. It is awesome. We fling that word around so much these days and it's lost is grandiosity, but it does apply most aptly here. Awesome.

My little unit is close to many others (8 directly surround me). Not once has any of the neighbors even MENTIONED my use of it. Not complaints... But an absence of even conversation. I don't think they're even aware of it.

As a group they are quick to complain, so they're not being polite.

I love it.

It has two pumpers on it, which are switchable separately. Turning one off reduces the volume drastically. It has a prodigious output and is fully capable of supporting a good hvlp gun.

I use it for spraying, cleaning the computers 🤣🤣 and cleaning the balcony after I've made a mess 😝😝

Totally recommend one.

[EagerBeaver71]

Yes, I've a HUSH by Chicago Pneumatic. It is awesome. We fling that word around so much these days and it's lost is grandiosity, but it does apply most aptly here. Awesome.

Which one you got?.

I've had no problem with mine but haven't used it enough to stir up any sort of emotion in the neighbors...

[woodPixel]

Which one you got?.

I've had no problem with mine but haven't used it enough to stir up any sort of emotion in the neighbors...


This one: Chicago Air HUSH70 Silenced 70L Air Compressor (https://sydneytools.com.au/product/chicago-hush70-aluminium-silenced-70l-air-compressor)

But I'm not saying it is the best available. I bought this 8/19 and no doubt much has changed since then.

It suits me as its very quiet. I've put long straws into the intakes and it muffles it even more.

I'm keen to ensure the neighbours have little to complain about. Here, in Canberra, everyone is a buttoned-down-no-authority-public-servant which means they are 100% NIMBYs ("Not in my back yard") and NOTES ("Not over there, either"). They hate anything that disrupts their "lifestyle" and due to their personal lack of power take out perceived grievances via complaints, pettiness and spiteful vindictiveness. Very keen to avoid that! (they really are like this).

Keeping off their radar is by far the better way of doing anything! SSShhhhhhhh......