Winching up heavy items - could this possilbly go wrong

[Arron]

In a few days the company doing our benchtops etc will come out to do a check measure. No doubt they will want to discuss how to get the 12 pieces of engineered stone up to our second floor kitchen and bathrooms. The largest ones are around 2800mm x 1200mm and 2800mm x 880mm and I expect he will want us to hire a crane and go via the balcony.

Part of this is me wanting to avoid the cost, but also I have doubts about how a crane can get the stone slabs in without risking damage - with the balcony roof overhanging the balcony and the cladding being fragile Orangeboard (polystyrene).

Allowing 50kgs per square meter the largest slabs will be about 170 kg and 125 kg respectively.

What I’m wondering is if we can instead use our electric winch to lift them. The winch is rated at 500kg and is robustly bolted to a 90mm gal steel balcony post. The steel post is bolted, top and bottom, to the structural steel that supports the balcony and its roof.

I have brought many other items up this way like shower screens and balcony glass, but nothing over about 70kg I estimate.

I have attached a photo. The thing in the middle is the winch wrapped in plastic. As configured it’s only rated to about 150kg but I can raise that to 500 by changing the mounting. The white timber going horizontally across the middle is just part of a temporary safety screen.

Ultimately it’s up to the installers how they want to work, but I can’t assume they are competent with a winch or mindful of what can go wrong.

So what could possibly go wrong?

515882

[woodg62]

I would let the installers to it whatever way the want. Then, if something goes wrong it's their responsibility to fix it or replace damaged benchtops.

[Arron]

Yes, ultimately they will decide. My concern is can I guarantee that if I am requested to hire a crane, and the slab is damaged while being craned, that the installers will replace it? Likewise, if the house is damaged, can I guarantee the installers will repair that to my standard?

Of course I can talk to them about getting it written into the contract.

[China]

As said above it is the installers problem, they new the access when you contracted them.

[Arron]

As said above it is the installers problem, they new the access when you contracted them.

Not exactly how it works. Usually they just have a form asking if it’s a 2 storey house, access from street etc. Detail like whether the kitchen is actually upstairs or downstairs and how roomy the staircase is are left for the check measure stage. The quote is usually adjusted at that point for various reasons.

[Mr Brush]

With the right lifting gear, and enough "blokes with no necks", they may still prefer to do it manually. We had a full size sheet of stone benchtop (with doubled up edge thickness) installed in a new kitchen, and they just had 4 guys manhandle it in (including up a short flight of stairs from garage entry). For guys who do this work all the time, it isn't as heavy as you think !

[Arron]

With the right lifting gear, and enough "blokes with no necks", they may still prefer to do it manually. We had a full size sheet of stone benchtop (with doubled up edge thickness) installed in a new kitchen, and they just had 4 guys manhandle it in (including up a short flight of stairs from garage entry). For guys who do this work all the time, it isn't as heavy as you think !

Yes, very likely. That might explain why they aren’t particularly interested in this level of detail.

Now I think of it, in our last house we had massive granite slabs fitted and they were carried up stairs by 3 little skinny guys. I had forgotten that.

just to clarify, the purpose of this thread was just to make sure that if I offered them the use of the winch, and they accepted, I wasn’t doing anything stupid or illegal.

[Chesand]

if I offered them the use of the winch, and they accepted, I wasn’t doing anything stupid or illegal.

I wouldn't offer anything, let them ask. The onus is on them then.

[Mr Brush]

Hope you get a good result, however they do it :2tsup:

[DJ’s Timber]

just to clarify, the purpose of this thread was just to make sure that if I offered them the use of the winch, and they accepted, I wasn’t doing anything stupid or illegal.

As a crane operator, I’d say that unless the setup has been certified, for example the post and beams etc that it’s all bolted to, it isn’t legal, so if something was to go wrong, all responsibilities would land on you and regardless of whether you had liability insurance or not, it’d be coming out of your pocket.

[Arron]

As a crane operator, I’d say that unless the setup has been certified, for example the post and beams etc that it’s all bolted to, it isn’t legal, so if something was to go wrong, all responsibilities would land on you and regardless of whether you had liability insurance or not, it’d be coming out of your pocket.

Well, that’s a showstopper.

[havabeer69]

As a crane operator, I’d say that unless the setup has been certified, for example the post and beams etc that it’s all bolted to, it isn’t legal, so if something was to go wrong, all responsibilities would land on you and regardless of whether you had liability insurance or not, it’d be coming out of your pocket.

I thought most crane drivers etc also hand a form for you to sign that basically says "the crane and its driver will be exempt from all damages caused by this crane" or something to that effect?


your winch etc would probably do it fine, its also making sure that the rigging gear for picking it up is going to fit into the hook etc. in end you've paid a fair bit of money to get all this stone made up, is stinging out at the end trying to bring it up semi dodigly really where you want to go wrong?

[Mobyturns]

Worst case scenario - some one gets injured when the hoist or a sling fails, you get sued for personal injury & damages, your home insurance public liability will not cover that event. Now if they fall down the stairs - different story.

Materials Hoist Operation in a "work place" generally comes under the definition of "high risk work" in all states and territories in Australia as defined in the Workplace Health & Safety Regulation. It requires the hoist to be certified yearly and the operator must hold an appropriate licence. Your home becomes the kitchen installers workplace for the duration of the task.

Many companies that have / had materials hoists that were used infrequently have taken them out of service due to the operator training, hoist certification, compliance costs and liability issues.

Do not make the hoist available to them - unless you intend to fully comply with the Workplace Health & Safety Regulation.

Any competent firm would never accept or permit its employees using customer supplied ladders, hoists etc because of the compliance issues and potential prosecution under the Workplace Health & Safety Regulation if their is an injury etc.

[Arron]

Worst case scenario - some one get injured when the hoist or a sling fails, you get sued, your home insurance public liability does not cover that event.

Materials Hoist Operation in a "work place" generally comes under the definition of "high risk work" in all states and territories in Australia as defined in the Workplace Health & Safety Regulation. It requires the hoist to be certified yearly and the operator must hold an appropriate licence. Your home becomes the kitchen installers workplace for the duration of the task.

Many companies that have / had materials hoists that were used infrequently have taken them out of service due to the operator training, hoist certification & compliance costs.

Do not make the hoist available to them - unless you intend to comply with the Workplace Health & Safety Regulation.

Regardless of whether this is right or wrong in law, this scares me enough to say the decision is made - no hoist.

[Mobyturns]

Regardless of whether this is right or wrong in law, this scares me enough to say the decision is made - no hoist.


Right decision imho.

I'm rusty on WH&S issues as I've been out of the work force 5 years now, but I had to undertake yearly compliance training which covered hoists that were in our workplaces but rendered inoperable due to the issues mentioned.

The definition of a "hoist" may not cover your setup but why assume the risk when others are involved.

"Hoist - A materials or personnel hoist is a builder's hoist where personnel, goods and/or materials are hoisted."

[Tonyz]

please please just let us know when delivery is taking place, it needs to be professionally video taped for broadcast on Youtube.

I think its too late now but the manufactures/suppliers should have looked at all options when you placed the order. I presume they took the measurements.

[Arron]

please please just let us know when delivery is taking place, it needs to be professionally video taped for broadcast on Youtube.

I think its too late now but the manufactures/suppliers should have looked at all options when you placed the order. I presume they took the measurements.

No, the usual way the process works is the initial quote is done on your measurements and assumptions are made based on a couple of questions about access. So the quote is conditional on measures being accurate (unlikely) and access being acceptable (likely). We got several of these - actually 5 or 6. Some were ridiculous - just companies hoping they had found a fool.

After you Ok one a site visit is made, a check measure is done, and access is checked. There are a lot of things buyers don’t consider like bookmatching and the role of light and shadow so they can add value from their expertise. Then adjustments to the price are made if required and a final quote is signed and deposit paid.

[Bushmiller]

Arron

I suspect you have now made your decision based on the foregoing advice. Leave it to the benchtop supplier. The benchtops are usually only 20mm thick apart from the edge thickening pieces and over their length quite fragile. lifting on a crane could be risky even if it was all approved/certified/insured/etc and at the very least would require a spreader bar for the lift. Three or four strong young men will probably be the way for them to go. They probably have those straps used for moving fridges too.

I hope it all goes well.

Regards
Paul

[Arron]

Well, the company man turned up to do the check-measure. He was very experienced and added a lot of value - which reminded us of why we used this same company previously. When it came to access, he took one look at the winch, asked me how many kgs , and said they wanted to use it. I had some misgivings based on the discussions on this thread, but said yes anyway. I will get something written into the contract that any use of the winch is their responsibility. I’ll be keeping right away from it.

Our staircase is wide and high so I think they will carry it up anyway.

[Arron]

End result, for those still interested, was I hired a crane truck.

It was expensive, and came with its own raft of problems.

Problem wise - the crane driver refused to take his truck onto the lawn because it was raining and he said he would get bogged. That left him working from the driveway but the pieces of balcony balustrade that had been removed were aligned with the lawn, not the driveway. We couldn’t remove more of the glass balustrade because the top rail is fixed on with adhesive. Then the foreman and crane driver decided to lift the larger slabs up on the A-frame on which they were delivered, which I guess was the only practical way to do it, but it weighed 1.5 tons and couldn’t be swung over through an oblique angle onto the strongest part of the balcony but could just with patience and exactitude be balanced on the very edge of the cantilevered part. Then manually unloaded by four people struggling with one slab, but willing workers and very cheerful types they got it done with no obvious damage. Then it was discovered one had been cut wrong and was not salvageable so would need to be replaced at the factory (their cost).

I kept out of it and left it to the people who seemed to know what they were doing.

Anyway, it is all now in place and I think it was worth it.

Cheers
Arron

[Mobyturns]

Thank you for the update. Sounds like your hoist may not have been up to the task in any case.

I just transported a 400kg + mill/drill for my BIL. No issues loading my end with a fork lift, but difficult, well not really, just slow his end with a gantry and chain hoist.

We looked at quotes for a crane truck with a Hiab, Franna crane, or hiring a portable gantry from Coates or Kennards to DIY. Surprisingly it was cheaper & more efficient to use the truck or crane @ min $265 hire. In the end my BIL chose to partially disassemble the mill / drill so he could use his repurposed 'gantry' - an old swing set frame. They certainly don't make them like that these days.

[Arron]

We looked at quotes for a crane truck with a Hiab, Franna crane, or hiring a portable gantry from Coates or Kennards to DIY. Surprisingly it was cheaper & more efficient to use the truck or crane @ min $265 hire. In the end my BIL chose to partially disassemble the mill / drill so he could use his repurposed 'gantry' - an old swing set frame. They certainly don't make them like that these days.

Yes, the crane trucks sound cheap per hour but beware of thinking this is what they are going to end up costing. In our district they charge travel time and some minimum number of hours, plus when you get them onto established sites the unforeseen problems arise which blows out the time.

[Mr Brush]

Yup - they always charge travel time, plus time on-site, so I try not to use Hiab trucks for work stuff unless someone else is paying :rolleyes:. Moderate-sized Hiab trucks can laos have very restricted load limits at full extension. Franna would be even more expensive, but often quicker on the job.

Glad to hear the operation was a (qualified) success, and you almost have a complete kitchen! :2tsup: