Future of the Australian Electricity Market

[AlexS]

Maybe hook it up to the houses of Parliament?

What, and suck what little energy they have out?

[woodPixel]

All-in-one solar tower produces jet fuel from CO2, water and sunlight (https://newatlas.com/energy/solar-jet-fuel-tower/)



One hundred and sixty-nine sun-tracking reflector panels, each presenting three square meters (~32 sq ft) of surface area, redirect sunlight into a 16-cm (6.3-in) hole in the solar reactor at the top of the 15-m-tall (49-ft) central tower. This reactor receives an average of about 2,500 suns' worth of energy — about 50 kW of solar thermal power.

This heat is used to drive a two-step thermochemical redox cycle. Water and pure carbon dioxide are fed in to a ceria-based redox reaction, which converts them simultaneously into hydrogen and carbon monoxide, or syngas. Because this is all being done in a single chamber, it's possible to tweak the rates of water and CO2 to live-manage the exact composition of the syngas. This syngas is fed to a Gas-to-Liquid (GtL) unit at the bottom of the tower, which produced a liquid phase containing 16% kerosene and 40% diesel, as well as a wax phase with 7% kerosene and 40% diesel — proving that the ceria-based ceramic solar reactor definitely produced syngas pure enough for conversion into synthetic fuels....

The team says the system's overall efficiency (measured by the energy content of the syngas as a percentage of the total solar energy input) was only around 4% in this implementation, but it sees pathways to getting that up over 20% by recovering and recycling more heat, and altering the structure of the ceria structure. "We are the first to demonstrate the entire thermochemical process chain (https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/an-all-in-one-solar-powered-tower-makes-carbon-neutral-jet-fuel) from water and CO2 to kerosene in a fully-integrated solar tower system," said ETH Professor Aldo Steinfeld, the corresponding author of the research paper. "This solar tower fuel plant was operated with a setup relevant to industrial implementation, setting a technological milestone towards the production of sustainable aviation fuels."

"The solar tower fuel plant described here represents a viable pathway to global-scale implementation of solar fuel production," reads the study.

[GraemeCook]

Maybe hook it up to the houses of Parliament?

Meltdown ???

[GraemeCook]

514489





What is the problem? It is the other side of the world, miles away!

[Bushmiller]

I chanced upon this article regarding the possibility of Nukes. Interesting and amusing at times. A no holds barred demolition of the nuclear prospect.

In particular I did take this extract as significant.

"Ziggy Switkowski appeared before O’Brien’s inquiry in 2019 and said there was no coherent business case to finance an Australian nuclear industry before adding: “I have emphasised that one of the things that has changed over the last decade or so is that nuclear power has got more expensive rather than less expensive”.

Regards
Paul

[havabeer69]

I'm sure there are a couple of companies that get rich every election/government change. There the ones doing the "feasibility studies" for nuclear power and the high speed train on the east coast to melbourne,

[ian]

I'm sure there are a couple of companies that get rich every election/government change. There the ones doing the "feasibility studies" for nuclear power and the high speed train on the east coast to melbourne,
You are so right !!

But don't forget, each government is looking to appease those inner city voters who think Australia should spend hundreds of billions connecting Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne with high speed rail -- because we're a wealthy country so should have HSR.

And those RARA voters who want the regional population boost that a HSR project might deliver.

.
.
.

RARA = Rural And Regional Areas

[Chris Parks]

Electrify 2515 plan to adopt renewable energy, EV car lease in Illawarra suburb - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-03/plans-to-electrify-illawarra-postcode-2515-renewable-energy/101294916)

A micro grid which is the way I think things will go. I helped my dad build a house at Bawley Point and I regret the day he sold it. Post code 2515 is right next to us and I missed out there as well.

[Bushmiller]

One of the disadvantages of Nuclear power was always the threat of damage by terrorists or other malcontents shouls a reactor be targeted. I had not really considered war as a potential problem before, but the Russia/Ukraine conflict has highlighted a new level of exposure.

This article identifies the breakdown of proceedural safety at the Zaporizhzhia Ukranian plant.

Rising threat of nuclear disaster at Europe's largest power plant (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2022/08/07/ukraine-war-nuclear-power-plant/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Sunday%20Best%20-%2020220807)

It is the largest in Europe at a nominal capacity of 5700MW (6 X 950MW units) and in more peaceful times supplies a fifth of Ukraine's power. It is occupied by Russia, operated by the Ukrainians and arguably may be used as a "shield." Nukes have extreme safety measure to virtually eliminate the risk of a core meltdown, but a stray shell knocking the cooling system or at least part of it could be catastrophic.

I believe two of the six units have already been shut down.

Regards
Paul

[Bohdan]

I believe two of the six units have already been shut down. Paul

Only two units currently operational with no explanations.

[NeilS]

One of the disadvantages of Nuclear power was always the threat of damage by terrorists or other malcontents should a reactor be targeted. I had not really considered war as a potential problem before, but the Russia/Ukraine conflict has highlighted a new level of exposure.

.... a stray shell knocking the cooling system or at least part of it could be catastrophic.



As demonstrated at Fukushima.

In that case it was a stray tsunami, well an underestimated probability of a tsunami of that magnitude (9 Mw) and a seawall that was built too low for the resulting tsunmai with a wave that was up to 40m above sea level, which knocked out its cooling plant.


The World Bank estimates the total economic cost could reach up to US$235 billion, making it the costliest natural disaster in world history (https://www.livescience.com/39110-japan-2011-earthquake-tsunami-facts.html).

That makes renewables seem very cheap!

[FenceFurniture]

The proposition of nuclear electricity for Australia is a complete non-starter, and Voldemort knows it. He also knows that they will be condemned to likely 6 or more years of Opposition, which means that he can say or propose what he likes in these early days of Opposition and it'll be forgotten. It seems to be a last gasp at keeping the climate wars going and paying some sort of homage to previous leaders. Somewhere in this thread the lead time for nuclear power has been mentioned, and around 20 years comes to mind – maybe a little less.

Apart from the fact that we just don't have that long to sort out our power woes, renewable power will be ready at proper large scale way before that. That's before we even get to the frightening cost of setting up nuclear power, and that's before we get to the enormous political difficulties of convincing the public that it's a good idea. Then we have to find Federal members who are keen to have a Nuke plant in their electorate.....:no:

[GraemeCook]

One of the disadvantages of Nuclear power was always the threat of damage by terrorists or other malcontents shouls a reactor be targeted. I had not really considered war as a potential problem before ...

Me either. I used to be a complete NIMBY on nuclear power, but now I am also a NIYBE - Not in Your Backyard Either.

A single rocket or smart bomb - all conventional - hitting a reactor could be as effective as a nuclear weapon. But if you closed down the reactor due to imminent threats, then you would still have to store the uranium rods. Guess that rocket hitting the nuclear fuel storage site would be just as effective?

[woodPixel]

515262

from Electricity from Renewable Energy Sources is Now Cheaper than Ever - Visual Capitalist (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electricity-from-renewable-energy-sources-is-now-cheaper-than-ever/)

[GraemeCook]

Thanks Woody, quite interesting.

PHOTO VOLTAIC Farms or Rooftop are certainly getting cheaper, but battery storage is still rather expensive, and their are those old fossils like me who like to turn on their lights when it is dark.

GEOTHERMAL. Have a friend who did a PhD on geothermal electricity at MIT in the early 1980's, and then worked as a consulting engineer until he retired before lockdown. It is a fascinating subject:

The centre of the earth is molten rock - it is hot,
Drill a hole anywhere and it will eventually get hot, very hot, the heat is near the surface in places like New Zealand and Iceland and much deeper in places like Australia, but it varies,
Drill a hole into a heat source, pump cold water down and suck hot water or steam out, simple,
Run the output through a heat pump to concentrate the heat,
Use it to run a "conventional" power station.


The problems are mainly metalurgical. The solvents coming out of the well, at heat, will usually attack all/most metal fittings and corrode them. And the solvents keep changing; appparently the chemistry is extremely complex and research is ongoing. With shallow wells, the solution to corrosion is simply to monitor and replace the metal work frequently. With deeper wells this is very expensive so they are still researching better metals - but the solvents are not consistent. He still thinks that geothermal will eventually be the major energy source, but not in our lifetime. Forty years ago he thought he would be involved in the transformation.

[FenceFurniture]

That graph also shows that of the methods that rose in minimum price to sell, Nuclear was the runaway, at 33% increase. Next closest in rising was GeoThermal at 5% increase.

[Bushmiller]

515262

from Electricity from Renewable Energy Sources is Now Cheaper than Ever - Visual Capitalist (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electricity-from-renewable-energy-sources-is-now-cheaper-than-ever/)

WP

Those are interesting statistics, but I am not sure where they relate to and is it a wholesale price or a retail price? An average for world wide perhaps, but not Australia. For example, the average wholesale price for power stations in 2009 would have been $30 to $40 from memory. Coal would have been generating all the time with the other sources of power only when the price was high or they were absent.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Woody, quite interesting.

PHOTO VOLTAIC Farms or Rooftop are certainly getting cheaper, but battery storage is still rather expensive, and their are those old fossils like me who like to turn on their lights when it is dark.

GEOTHERMAL. Have a friend who did a PhD on geothermal electricity at MIT in the early 1980's, and then worked as a consulting engineer until he retired before lockdown. It is a fascinating subject:

The centre of the earth is molten rock - it is hot,
Drill a hole anywhere and it will eventually get hot, very hot, the heat is near the surface in places like New Zealand and Iceland and much deeper in places like Australia, but it varies,
Drill a hole into a heat source, pump cold water down and suck hot water or steam out, simple,
Run the output through a heat pump to concentrate the heat,
Use it to run a "conventional" power station.


The problems are mainly metalurgical. The solvents coming out of the well, at heat, will usually attack all/most metal fittings and corrode them. And the solvents keep changing; appparently the chemistry is extremely complex and research is ongoing. With shallow wells, the solution to corrosion is simply to monitor and replace the metal work frequently. With deeper wells this is very expensive so they are still researching better metals - but the solvents are not consistent. He still thinks that geothermal will eventually be the major energy source, but not in our lifetime. Forty years ago he thought he would be involved in the transformation.

Graeme

You are on the money (not an intentional pun) with the cost of storage. I believe we have reached saturation point with solar and wind until we talk of storage (battery, pumped hydro or anything else) in the same breath. I am not sure what is considered a deep well, but those that were bandied around in recent times in Australia were around four kilometers deep. I can imagine that there are technical issues associated with that depth.

As for converting existing coal fired stations as in point No.5, while I would like to believe that is possible, I am a little sceptical. Firstly the geothermal well would have to be located adjacent to the station. Secondly the heat generated may only be sufficient to produce low pressure steam at comparatively low temperature. The HRSG on the back end of a gas turbine utilises this technology. Steam in modern coal fired power stations is at a temperature of around 550°C and a pressure of 15,800KPa in drum boilers and 24,000KPa in supercritical boilers. The reheat steam, which is the exhaust gas from the HP cyclinder used in the IP and LP cylinders after first being returned to the boiler, in both types will be closer to 590°C. Geothermal steam just would not be able to deliver this.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

I believe we have reached saturation point with solar and wind until we talk of storage (battery, pumped hydro or anything else) in the same breath.I agree Paul, and for me the research $$ need to go into batteries (not that pumped hydro et al are unimportant). Batteries are in everything these days – the ubiquitous 18650 rechargeable cell is in Power Walls, cars, lamps, torches, tools etc etc etc. The more efficient that particular storage is, the better, and the easier it is to swap out a dud cell the better. Don't change the form factor, just improve the storage capacity and/or recharge time, then we can continue to use them in the same appliances.

As a side note, NCArcher has just checked 18 of my 18650 cells from two tool batteries which had refused to recharge (one with 15 cells, the other with 3), and only 3/18 were duds, meaning I have 15 spares to replace other duds as they come up. Makita and DeWalt would, of course, prefer me to just dump the two entire battery packs and unnecessarily buy new ones from them. The problem with that is the replacement cells need to be mini-welded into the "grid" which requires expertise and specialised equipment (both of which he has), when the process really needs to be as easy as it is to change AA batteries in any given appliance. One has to wonder how many millions of still-usable cells have been binned because just one cell stops the battery grid from recharging.

[GraemeCook]

... I am not sure what is considered a deep well, but those that were bandied around in recent times in Australia were around four kilometers deep. I can imagine that there are technical issues associated with that depth. ...

That was the point, I think, Paul. The depth of the hot rocks varied all over the world - from quite shallow on the Ring of Fire to very deep in geologically mature places like Australia, but even there there were variances. eg A "hot rock" zone was found in the vicinity of St Helens, NE Tasmania, at a depth of 800 - 1,000 feet. Those problems existed in wells at any depth, but it was easier to deal with them in the shallower wells. Plus costs, of course.



... As for converting existing coal fired stations as in point No.5, while I would like to believe that is possible, I am a little sceptical. ...

Sloppy wording by me, Paul. Power station would, of course, be a new one located on top of the geothermal field. Steam created would be used to power an existing type of conventional steam turbine. I am an economist, not an engineer, so on this I am strictly big picture and non-technical. It sounded like an "interesting project in the pipeline", but it has not arrived yet, except for some particularly favourable sites such as NZ and Iceland.

[Bushmiller]

That was the point, I think, Paul. The depth of the hot rocks varied all over the world - from quite shallow on the Ring of Fire to very deep in geologically mature places like Australia, but even there there were variances. eg A "hot rock" zone was found in the vicinity of St Helens, NE Tasmania, at a depth of 800 - 1,000 feet. Those problems existed in wells at any depth, but it was easier to deal with them in the shallower wells. Plus costs, of course.




Sloppy wording by me, Paul. Power station would, of course, be a new one located on top of the geothermal field. Steam created would be used to power an existing type of conventional steam turbine. I am an economist, not an engineer, so on this I am strictly big picture and non-technical. It sounded like an "interesting project in the pipeline", but it has not arrived yet, except for some particularly favourable sites such as NZ and Iceland.

Graeme

The New Zealand sites are perhaps the most commonly known, although I think Italy and at least one other place has had self sustaining sites for some while. One issue is that the heat diminishes after a period of time. However, with geothermal power I am a little out of my depth ( :rolleyes: ) as it is not my area.

I realised after I had posted that you could be referring to new "conventional" power stations to take advantage of geothermal heat. I believe the temperatures are rarely above 180°C so it would certainly be low pressure. The other issue is that I have read the efficiency is low at 10% - 16% so I don't know how that would stack up against other forms of renewable power.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

That was the point, I think, Paul. The depth of the hot rocks varied all over the world - from quite shallow on the Ring of Fire to very deep in geologically mature places like Australia

My brother-in-law was the consulting geophysicist (geologist-physicist) on the early hot-dry-rocks trials here in SA over twenty years ago. The primary motive behind those trials was the remote location away from any grid source of power.

As I understand it, two adjacent bores were drilled and cold water was pumped down the bores with the intent of the hot rock between the two bores fracturing to allow a flow between them so a circuit could be formed; colder water down one and heated water up the other.

The trials failed for one reason and another, not least a failure to create enough fractures between the base of the two bores to get the necessary water flow, if I remember that correctly. The cost of boring to the required depths is significant and perhaps recouped over time if it was always successful. However, putting aside any ongoing maintenance costs of successful bores, with an unpredictable failure rate at the depths required in our old geological zones this form of geothermal power generation may never be economically viable in those areas.

I expect with the dropping cost of solar, wind and storage (or combinations of those) over the last two decades would make those options far more favourable now for very remote locations.

PS - I enjoyed a dip in the artesian thermal springs at Moree a few years back. Good enough for a warm bathe, but not hot enough keep any lights going...:)

[Bushmiller]

Neil

Thanks for the additional perspective on geothermal. As I said before, it is not my area.

Regards
Paul

[GraemeCook]

Just been trying to think through a risk assessment for storage of electricity from solar and wind sources.

Best available is hydro which can ramp up and ramp down very quickly with variances in the wind and sun light. But this is very limited because you need the right topography for a hydro dam.

Otherwise you essentially have three options:

Battery storage,
Pumped hydro, and
Exotics - hot sand storage, etc.


Battery storage is not yet cost effective, except in off-grid areas, so any analysis might conclude: "Good idea, but not yet - WAIT and monitor battery prices."

Pumped hydro has a very long lead time - 10 years ? from go decision to build dam and commission it. Risk is that within that period battery prices could plummet, either new technology or cheaper manufacturing - and the project could be superceded before it is completed. So any analysis might conclude: "Good idea, but not yet - WAIT and monitor battery prices."

Exotics - nothing is really out of the laboratory yet, but there can always be surprises.

As Malcolm said: "Life was not meant to be easy."

[AlexS]

PS - I enjoyed a dip in the artesian thermal springs at Moree a few years back. Good enough for a warm bathe, but not hot enough keep any lights going...:)

The three best things in life are a beer before and a dip in the hot springs after.:D

[Bushmiller]

Just been trying to think through a risk assessment for storage of electricity from solar and wind sources.

Best available is hydro which can ramp up and ramp down very quickly with variances in the wind and sun light. But this is very limited because you need the right topography for a hydro dam.

Otherwise you essentially have three options:

Battery storage,
Pumped hydro, and
Exotics - hot sand storage, etc.


Battery storage is not yet cost effective, except in off-grid areas, so any analysis might conclude: "Good idea, but not yet - WAIT and monitor battery prices."

Pumped hydro has a very long lead time - 10 years ? from go decision to build dam and commission it. Risk is that within that period battery prices could plummet, either new technology or cheaper manufacturing - and the project could be superceded before it is completed. So any analysis might conclude: "Good idea, but not yet - WAIT and monitor battery prices."

Exotics - nothing is really out of the laboratory yet, but there can always be surprises.

As Malcolm said: "Life was not meant to be easy."

Graeme

Storage of electricity is the single most important aspect of power generation at the moment. It has easily, to my mind, surpassed the various renewable methods of generating: Solar, wind and all the others are almost old hat being able to be conceived, approved and commissioned in a very short space of time compared to almost anything else. I agree with your sumation of the storage state of play, but I would add hydrgen storage to that mix. It is a type of storage that both lends itself to renewable generation and can potentially be utilised in transport. I think more effort should be directed to the development of H2

On Malcolm's "Life was not meant to be easy" quote, while it often seems he was fundamentally right, he did plagiarise and slightly take the quote out of context from George Bernard Shaw who was the originator. I'm not sure when he said it, but Shaw died in 1950 so quite a long time before Malcolm re-gurgitated it in 1971.

The full quote is: "Life is not meant to be easy my child; but take courage: It can be delightful."

I wonder if Malcolm had a premonition about climate change. :)

Regards
Paul

[GraemeCook]

Thanks, Paul, I think I now prefer Bernard Shaw's version.

I am a little more cautious on Hydrogen - possible, but not yet. Still major cost and safety hurdles to overcome.

Hydrogen has been used for 50+ years for underwater welding - just check the price of a cylinder of hydrogen vs acetylene, and you will know what sticker shock means.

[FenceFurniture]

Somewhere (maybe this thread) there was talk of Compressed Air storage as a battery. I'm reading efficiency rates of between 70-85% which sounds pretty good. That's comparable with Pumped Hydro isn't it?

Here's a search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=compressed+air+electricity+storage) – take your pick of articles. CA is the preferred option for Broken Hill, as of May 2022 (https://www.energy-storage.news/1-5gwh-compressed-air-project-is-preferred-energy-storage-option-for-australian-city/).

[woodPixel]

Somewhere (maybe this thread) there was talk of Compressed Air storage as a battery. I'm reading efficiency rates of between 70-85% which sounds pretty good. That's comparable with Pumped Hydro isn't it?

Here's a search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=compressed+air+electricity+storage) – take your pick of articles. CA is the preferred option for Broken Hill, as of May 2022 (https://www.energy-storage.news/1-5gwh-compressed-air-project-is-preferred-energy-storage-option-for-australian-city/).

Yes, CAES... I've been pumping it hard :) Nobody wants to listen. :)

Its FANTASTIC. I've two investments in Ireland and Scotland, both are going gangbusters.

There are so many advantages to CAES it isn't funny.

[Simplicity]

We may need too think off others as well.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/953212a8cec519218121acfc5250ed0a.jpg


Cheers Matt.

[Bushmiller]

We may need too think off others as well.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220809/953212a8cec519218121acfc5250ed0a.jpg


Cheers Matt.

Matt

Hence the phrase, "Left hanging!"

Regards
Paul

[russ57]

Did something happen in the generation market today, around 11.30? Prices went wild, then settled again by about 1.00
Something big went offline?
Update
This advice from my retailer.. 515438

[Bushmiller]

Did something happen in the generation market today, around 11.30? Prices went wild, then settled again by about 1.00
Something big went offline?
Update
This advice from my retailer.. 515438

Russ

I wasn't on shift at that time as I am on one of my long breaks, but as far as I can make out there was an exceptional excursion in the FCAS market ( Frequency Control Ancillary Services What is Frequency Control Ancillary Services? - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (arena.gov.au) (https://arena.gov.au/blog/what-is-frequency-control-ancillary-services/)), which is another commercial feature that receivies payment separately to MWs. A brief view looks as though it was costing some generators a lot of money, as in millions of dollars an hour, and they reduced their available capacity in a vain attempt to mitigate their loses. In turn this may have been responsible for a power shortage and a consequent high spot price.

Your retailler must purchase primarily on the spot market and are not hedged against sprice spikes with contracts. I don't pretend to understand the exact sequence of events that led to this, but I have never heard of it before: Just another anomally in this tumultuous times!

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

It seems the Federal government are getting behind wind:

Wind turbines almost twice size of the Sydney Harbour Bridge to be built off coast of Australia (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/wind-turbines-almost-twice-size-of-the-sydney-harbour-bridge-to-be-built-off-coast-of-australia/ar-AA10xjjG?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a8295e95652d4024b2ac2f7c70b074d9)

No problem with that, but where are they going to store it? Without a storage facility, the daytime price will be cheaper and the night price more expensive with the "night period" effectively being about three times as long.

In the late 90s ahead of the competitive market the cry was "Price, Price and Price." Today we should be substituting "Storage, Storage and Storage."

Regards
Paul

[russ57]

Advice from supplier is that there was an error caused by aemo, and the price is now retrospectively corrected.
My supplier amber passes on the wholesale /spot price, with an annual cap equal to the default offer.
Until April this year it was working really well for me. Not so good after then but prices are slowly looking more normal.
A battery lets me avoid the spikes.

Regards
Russell



Russ

I wasn't on shift at that time as I am on one of my long breaks, but as far as I can make out there was an exceptional excursion in the FCAS market ( Frequency Control Ancillary Services What is Frequency Control Ancillary Services? - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (arena.gov.au) (https://arena.gov.au/blog/what-is-frequency-control-ancillary-services/)), which is another commercial feature that receivies payment separately to MWs. A brief view looks as though it was costing some generators a lot of money, as in millions of dollars an hour, and they reduced their available capacity in a vain attempt to mitigate their loses. In turn this may have been responsible for a power shortage and a consequent high spot price.

Your retailler must purchase primarily on the spot market and are not hedged against sprice spikes with contracts. I don't pretend to understand the exact sequence of events that led to this, but I have never heard of it before: Just another anomally in this tumultuous times!

Regards
Paul
Thanks Paul

[Optimark]

With regard to delivery efficiency, much has been said about the inability of the newish remote solar and wind farms to deliver electricity efficiently. I stumbled upon this interesting paragraph when looking at HWS replacement and their inherent efficiency in the scheme of things.

For what it's worth, we replaced our gas HWS with a heat pump unit manufactured in Japan, with the water container itself manufactured in the adjoining suburb. In fact, one of my brothers works there. Before you ask, I didn't get mates rates or anything like that.

This is the second last paragraph on page two of this 2010 report.

"Electricity is considered a high-grade energy source because its generation from fossil fuels for example, is usually accomplished at an efficiency of around 30%; it gets then transmitted and distributed at a further 80% to reach end-users at a final efficiency of 30x 80 % = 24 %. Transforming electricity back into heat, at an efficiency around 50 %,makes the final transforming efficiency from heat back into heat of 24 x 50 % = 12 %.Hence, it seems reasonable to consistently engage photovoltaic systems with solar water heaters capable to supply thermal demands, in order to make sure photovoltaic electricity is being used specifically for electrical loads"

The whole of the report can be seen here:

https://eprints.usq.edu.au/8937/1/Kamel_Solar2010_AV.pdf



This is a further couple of paragraphs, which from a home solar powered HWS make for interesting reading.


"While grid-connected photovoltaic systems provide the ability of feeding end-users and the electrical network with solar electricity, solar water heaters provide the ability of supplying and storing thermal energy for heating and cooling purposes, otherwise produced by electricity.

Although electricity is being typically used at present for heating water during low demand periods (at night), when electricity tariffs are low, solar water heaters are offering waiving considerable part of that demand at improved efficiencies and less environmental impact. The electrical capacity relieved could be directed to supply present peak demands at improved utilization factors, reduced energy prices and enhanced reliability."


Mick.

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Mick

That is all a bit demoralising. However in recent times I have become suspicious of statements that sound just a little too good or a little too bad and what aroused my suspicion this time is that although they quote a diaboloical end user efficiency, they did not seem to mention the efficiency of the panels . This leads the reader to jump to the conclusion that solar is much more efficient: It may be more efficient, but I went looking. Back in 2010 panel would have had an efficiency between 15% and 20%. Today, with improvements in technology, it could be better than 25%. This is still a worthwhile improvement on thermal generated electricity but not quite as good as the article led us to believe.

Also modern fossil fired stations since 2000 would have an efficiency of around 38%. It is only the old fossils that were back at 30%. Also that solar efficiency is under ideal conditions of sunlight, panel angle and material quality: Not all installations will meet that requirement. Some more information here:

Most Efficient Solar Panels: Solar Panel Efficiency Explained | EnergySage (https://news.energysage.com/what-are-the-most-efficient-solar-panels-on-the-market/#:~:text=Most%20solar%20panels%20are%20between%2015%25%20and%2020%25,photovoltaic%20panels%20available%20are%20not%20above%2020%25%20efficiency.)

Having said all that, we put in a conventional water heater quite a few years back and I kicked myself after for not going with a solar unit. What was I thinking? I wasn't . :(

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Here is a bit of skookum for you.

This bad girl (Christine) is the steam turbine of France's newest nuclear reactor.

70 meters long and it can produce enough electricity to power all of Paris - 1650MW

515514

[Chris Parks]

I too installed a heat pump HWS recently reasoning that it will draw from out solar panels during the day and be switched of at night. I have changed my thinking about solar this year, don't export it, use it all and if you can't use it all the system is too big. As an aside this is the 2nd heat pump we have had, we did have a Siddons many years ago, they were the original developers of the technology but these new ones are far better.

[GraemeCook]

... Having said all that, we put in a conventional water heater quite a few years back and I kicked myself after for not going with a solar unit. What was I thinking? I wasn't . :(

Regards
Paul

Back in the seventies we lived in an employer supplied house that had solar thermal water heaters on the roof - Rheem, I think. We thought they were the beeze knees, but about 15-20% of my colleagues hated them - they regularly ran out of hot water. The "solution" was to add electrical resistance coils to the storage tanks. Fairly cheap solution, and it worked, but electrical usage went through the roof.

The engineers were all "too busy" to work out the problem so it was passed onto muggins, the economist.

At first I was baffled. But the answer was surprisingly simple. During the day the sun shined and heated the water to a maximum just before sun set, then the storage tank cooled slowly overnight but generally still very warm to a minimum just after dawn, then the sun rose and the cycle repeated. Now, the bathroom is the biggest user of hot water in most homes and most people shower just before going to bed or when getting up. In a larger household this could cool the storage tank sufficiently to trigger the thermostat on the electric heater and the tank would get heated immediately. The solution for "problem" houses was to remove the electrical booster, to put in a third roof top panel and a larger storage tank and to add more insulation around all tanks. [Remember, we are talking 1970's technology and smart meters were not available.]

[GraemeCook]

I too installed a heat pump HWS recently reasoning that it will draw from out solar panels during the day and be switched of at night. ....

What did you put in, Chris? And are you :

Using solar thermal panels as part of the heat exchanger, or
powering it from solar voltaic panels, or
something else?

A mates just put in a Stiebel Eltron heat pump
powering both his hot water and radiator panels in most rooms. He's keeps raving about it!

[Mr Brush]

I too installed a heat pump HWS recently reasoning that it will draw from out solar panels during the day and be switched of at night. I have changed my thinking about solar this year, don't export it, use it all and if you can't use it all the system is too big. As an aside this is the 2nd heat pump we have had, we did have a Siddons many years ago, they were the original developers of the technology but these new ones are far better.

Not sure which heat pump HWS you have, but I just programmed our Sanden unit to only operate between 11.00am and 3pm when we have plenty of solar going spare. It only draws 900W for about an hour, and we've never run out of hot water (only 2 people in the house).

No home storage battery here, but a couple of months ago I ordered and put a deposit on one of these:-

EVDirect.com.au | BYD Atto 3 - Electric Cars (https://evdirect.com.au/atto-3)

Expected delivery November/December (I got the long range version). I'll be installing a Zappi home charger which can be set to use only excess solar, or only cheapest rate off peak, or "just charge the car, dammit" mode.

We only get 10.2c/kWh for solar exported to the grid, so I'd rather use it all myself if possible.

[Chris Parks]

My son told me today that the dealership he works for was getting a BYD franchise so he might get a company car when that happens. He hates Chinese cars having worked on one but if it is free I am sure he will change his view.

[Bushmiller]

Here is a bit of skookum for you.

This bad girl (Christine) is the steam turbine of France's newest nuclear reactor.

70 meters long and it can produce enough electricity to power all of Paris - 1650MW



WP

I think that must be Unit No.3 at Flamanville, which commenced construction in 2007 with a budget of 3.3 billion Euros. It still has not been commissioned and the budget so far has blown out to 12.7 billion Euros! When it comes on line it will be Europe's first EPR unit with another two similar EPRs already operating in China. A second unit was originally planned for France, but that has been canned.

Units approaching that size in the past have had tandem shafts (Mountaineer in the US @ 1300+MW is one that comes to mind). I would be interested to see more detail of the turbo generator. It looks very smart. Do you have a link?

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Yes! It's Flamanville 3.

It is apocalypticly over budget. Imagine the green facilities that could have been built for ~€13B (hint: 10 of these (https://www.power-technology.com/projects/baltic-eagle-offshore-windfarm/) producing 3 times more juice)


My source The steam turbine of France'''s newest nuclear reactor. (https://www.reddit.com/r/EngineeringPorn/comments/wm2gux/)

To make matters worse, France has been hit by a mega drought.... the longest river in france dried up today (https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/wlql19/)

(Edit - just saw this at midnight Europe drought affects major rivers like the Danube, the Rhine and the Po - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-12/european-drought-dries-up-rivers-kills-fish-shrivels-crops/101329598) )

No water .. no nukes!!

515563

[FenceFurniture]

No water .. no nukes!!Or pumped hydro.

[Bushmiller]

WP

Thanks for the link and the bad drought news. I am wondering if this is the first ocassion in modern times that such European rivers have dried up.

The link enabled me to search a little more. The turbo generator is the largest made for nukes and is the Arabelle model from GE (i didn't know this and had to look it up). It looks as though it can be ordered in a number of variations.

This is for the more technically minded among you or the plain bloody curious. :)

515572

The steam enters the HP (High Pressure) cyclinder at the smallest blades and moves to the left. That steam is returned to the boiler (heated in this case by the nuke) and passes through the Reheat pipework. It re-enters the turbine in the IP section, again at the smallest diameter blades this time travelling to the right in the picture. This counter flow balances out the two cylinders. From the exhaust of the IP the steam passes and is shared between the two LP (you've guessed it, Low Pressure) cylinders entering in middle in both cases to balance the forces by travelling in both directions.

I am not quite certain of my ground here but it looks as though there may be three LP cylinders. The exploded diagram above may just have the third cylinder closed in and WP's original pic seemed to show three LP cylinders. In that pic you can see the three white access platforms sitting high. I think the generator is the square box at the far end, but it doesn't look to be completed.

The largest versions of this unit will be for the 50Hz markets (includes most of Europe) as with the 60Hz market the turbine is spining faster at 3600rpm instead of 3000rpm and this will limit the size (length)of the blades in the LP sections. Centrifugal force is very useful but also limiting.

Just to put this turbine into perspective, it is more than three times the size of the turbines we have at Millmerran. I'm impressed. I wonder if they do version for geothermal? :rolleyes::D

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Or pumped hydro.

Maybe no hydro at all!!

Regards
Paul

Edit: Remember my coment that every power source today has at least one fatal flaw.

[woodPixel]

Or pumped hydro.

or food.

Centuries-old warnings emerge from riverbed as Europe faces historic drought (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article264446131.html)

515580

Year 1616: The warning reads, “Wenn du mich seehst, dann weine” – “If you see me, weep.”



To some extent, we are lucky in Australia, for drought is part of our cycle and we've learned to live with it. At least it exists, we know about it, and our systems are somewhat designed to cope - but the Europeans?

Doomed. Their systems are designed for a nice pleasant 20° and a predictable rainfall, with 500 years of damn near perfect weather.

No more - these systems are going to break and break HARD. It doesn't take genius to work out that the hungry mobs will stir discontent.

Worse, bridges, pipes, houses, buildings were all designed for a certain level of humidity and heat. Foundations will crack, systems will break, reliable things will become unreliable and the costs to fix them will be terrible.

This needs to be part of our collective thinking. What are the effects?

Apologies for the tangent.


BTW, I used the word SKOOKUM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skookum) previously. Its an odd Chinook word I learned long ago. It essentially mean big, powerful, strong, formidable. Its an excellent word :)

[Bushmiller]

or food.

Centuries-old warnings emerge from riverbed as Europe faces historic drought (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article264446131.html)

515580

Year 1616: The warning reads, “Wenn du mich seehst, dann weine” – “If you see me, weep.”



To some extent, we are lucky in Australia, for drought is part of our cycle and we've learned to live with it. At least it exists, we know about it, and our systems are somewhat designed to cope - but the Europeans?

Doomed. Their systems are designed for a nice pleasant 20° and a predictable rainfall, with 500 years of damn near perfect weather.

No more - these systems are going to break and break HARD. It doesn't take genius to work out that the hungry mobs will stir discontent.

Worse, bridges, pipes, houses, buildings were all designed for a certain level of humidity and heat. Foundations will crack, systems will break, reliable things will become unreliable and the costs to fix them will be terrible.

This needs to be part of our collective thinking. What are the effects?

Apologies for the tangent.


BTW, I used the word SKOOKUM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skookum) previously. Its an odd Chinook word I learned long ago. It essentially mean big, powerful, strong, formidable. Its an excellent word :)

WP

There are steep learning curves to be had all around the world I think.

"Skookum". I will have to remember that one. Sums up the "Arabelle" fairly well too.

Somebody asked what heppens when a large generator trips off line (looked briefly but couldn't find it). Well, it is a good question and much depends on what percentage of the system the tripped generator represents. At best it creates a dip in the frequency, and assuming there are sufficient other generators available with capacity, the deficit is made up quickly: If not, load shedding is employed. The worst scenario is that a total blackout occurs. These have happened around the world and can be catastrophic.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Amazing timing - this is on the front page of the BBC News' website just now....

Climate change: Drought highlights dangers for electricity supplies - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62524551)

and now with attacks on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62509638), the old nukies don't look like so much fun1 any more.... (we shalt mention our old favourite Chernobyl) :no:

Food for thought.


515587


1 - safe until they... aren't.

[Bushmiller]

WP

An interesting chart. I had been looking specifically at France's power situation following your post on their latest nuke. France has potentially the highest percentage of nuclear power relative to their demand at about 70%, but all is not roses. I say "potentially" as for any number of reasons their actual load capability may be less than the name plate on their generators. In times of high demand they have to import power from other countries and having been nuclearised (is that a word) for a long time they are now at the stage where the older stations have been de-commisioned. This may be leaving them a little light on in the power generation stakes. It would be interesting to know how much de-commisioning is costing them. I believe the French government holds the majority of the ownership of their nuclear stations.

On the issue of the Ukranian Zaphorizhzhia plant there are two concerns. Firstly that there will be a malfunction resulting in a radioactive contamination leak and secondly that the Russians have occupied the station to use it as a shield; A bit like holding a child as hostage in front of you. I had wonderedwhy the Russians had moved in as univited house guests. My natural naievety prevented me of thinking "hostage." It is difficult to think kindly about anything to do with the Russian hierachy.

:((

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Excuse another little tangent away from the core discussion.... BUT, this is damned interesting!


"A 17-year-old [named Robert Sansone] created a prototype of a novel synchronous reluctance motor that has greater rotational force -- or torque -- and efficiency than existing ones," report via Smithsonian Magazine. "The prototype was made from 3-D printed plastic, copper wires and a steel rotor and tested using a variety of meters to measure power and a laser tachometer to determine the motor's rotational speed. His work earned him first prize (https://www.societyforscience.org/press-release/2022-regeneron-isef-top-winners/), and $75,000 in winnings, at this year's Regeneron International Science and Engineering Fair (ISEF) (https://www.societyforscience.org/isef/), the largest international high school STEM competition." From the report:




The less sustainable permanent magnet motors use materials such as neodymium, samarium and dysprosium, which are in high demand because they're used in many different products, including headphones and earbuds, explains Heath Hofmann, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Michigan. Hofmann has worked extensively on electric vehicles, including consulting with Tesla to develop the control algorithms for its propulsion drive. [...] Synchronous reluctance motors don't use magnets. Instead, a steel rotor with air gaps cut into it aligns itself with the rotating magnetic field. Reluctance, or the magnetism of a material, is key to this process. As the rotor spins along with the rotating magnetic field, torque is produced. More torque is produced when the saliency ratio, or difference in magnetism between materials (in this case, the steel and the non-magnetic air gaps), is greater.

Instead of using air gaps, Sansone thought he could incorporate another magnetic field into a motor. This would increase this saliency ratio and, in turn, produce more torque. His design has other components, but he can't disclose any more details because he hopes to patent the technology in the future. [...] It took several prototypes before he could test his design. [...] Sansone tested his motor for torque and efficiency, and then reconfigured it to run as a more traditional synchronous reluctance motor for comparison. He found that his novel design exhibited 39 percent greater torque and 31 percent greater efficiency at 300 revolutions per minute (RPM). At 750 RPM, it performed at 37 percent greater efficiency. He couldn't test his prototype at higher revolutions per minute because the plastic pieces would overheat -- a lesson he learned the hard way when one of the prototypes melted on his desk, he tells Top of the Class (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1416160/10891892), a podcast produced by Crimson Education. In comparison, Tesla's Model S motor can reach up to 18,000 RPM, explained the company's principal motor designer Konstantinos Laskaris in a 2016 interview with Christian Ruoff of the electric vehicles magazine Charged (https://chargedevs.com/features/qa-with-teslas-lead-motor-engineer-full-interview/#:~:text=The%20total%20motor%20power%20exceeds,it%20awakens%20the%20soulless%20car.).

Sansone validated his results in a second experiment, in which he "isolated the theoretical principle under which the novel design creates magnetic saliency," per his project presentation. Essentially, this experiment eliminated all other variables, and confirmed that the improvements in torque and efficiency were correlated with the greater saliency ratio of his design. [...] Sansone is now working on calculations and 3-D modeling for version 16 of his motor, which he plans to build out of sturdier materials so he can test it at higher revolutions per minute. If his motor continues to perform with high speed and efficiency, he says he'll move forward with the patenting process.

and this : ETSD014 - Investigating a Novel Electric Motor Design | ISEF (https://projectboard.world/isef/project/etsd014---investigating-a-novel-electric-motor-design)


These are 17 year olds. It BOGGLES my mind. Such genius.

[LanceC]

Somebody asked what heppens when a large generator trips off line (looked briefly but couldn't find it). Well, it is a good question and much depends on what percentage of the system the tripped generator represents. At best it creates a dip in the frequency, and assuming there are sufficient other generators available with capacity, the deficit is made up quickly: If not, load shedding is employed. The worst scenario is that a total blackout occurs. These have happened around the world and can be catastrophic.

Here is a well explained video discussing the 2003 blackout in the US.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KciAzYfXNwU

[ian]

This is a very, very bad sign for the future availability, supply and cost of electricity in Australia Solar briefly overtakes coal in Australia as number one source of power nationally - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-20/solar-briefly-overtakes-coal-australia-number-one-source-power/101354054)

Until we have heaps and heaps of electricity storage -- remember that battery backup is really mostly about stabilizing the grid, Snowy 2 won't come on-line before 2027 (if that early), and the second link across Bass Strait will be even further in the future -- these sorts of relative costs imply that in a year or so most of Australia's electricity will be generated by super expensive gas

[woodPixel]

These sorts of relative costs imply that in a year or so most of Australia's electricity will be generated by super expensive gas

Unless we nationalise it, or embargo our needs first....

[GraemeCook]

... Snowy 2 won't come on-line before 2027 (if that early), and the second link across Bass Strait will be even further in the future....

Not sure the latter suggestion would pass the pub test in Tassie.

My reading is that most people are so disgusted with the AER, AEMO and AEMC that the second link is unlikely to be built. Run a referendum now and the consensus might be to pull the plug on the existing cable. Most think it is a failure.

[Bushmiller]

Not sure the latter suggestion would pass the pub test in Tassie.

My reading is that most people are so disgusted with the AER, AEMO and AEMC that the second link is unlikely to be built. Run a referendum now and the consensus might be to pull the plug on the existing cable. Most think it is a failure.

Graeme

I struggle with how selective people in Tassie pubs, and indeed anywhere in Australia, can be. The AEMO, just to take one of the institutions but it applies to all the bodies you mentioned, have operated the market since the competitive market first began 25 years ago. All through these years Australians enjoyed dirt cheap electricity despite how the government of the day would constantly advise that electricty costs were escalating. During this period the generators battled to make a profit.

All businesses are entitled to make a profit: A reasonable profit that is and not a mega windfall. It is only in the last eight months that wholesale prices have gone ballistic. Indeed it is time to look closely at the "rules" as the whole playing field has dramatically changed. However, that has not been caused by AER, AEMO or AEMC. Probably, if we were being honest, we would say that a combination of circumstances, mis-management at governmental level and greed has sparked this dramatic change in the cost of electricity we are now about to experience. I say "about" to experience as many people, mainly those who are with the traditional retaillers (who had lengthy fixed price contracts), have not been significantly affected at this point. It was the opportunity retaillers who jumped in and purchased primarily on the spot market who have been catastrophically impacted and in turn their customers. Yes, some revision will have to happen.

Snowy 2 is pumped hydro as we know and you just can't dig tunnels and build dams in the blink of an eye: We have inherited the inactivity ( and denial) of previous governments and if there is disenchantment it should be placed squarely in front of the door of those who refused to acknowledge that the world was changing in a way that has never been seen since the Industrial Revolution of the early 1800s.

As to bass link, I wonder why your fellow Tasmanians think it is a failure? It was put in to ensure continuity of supply for Tasmania in case the prime source, hydro, should undergo a drought. Look what happened when the link broke. Tasmania ran on diesel. Pull the plug now and go "black." Failure? Are they on the same planet as the rest of us? Unfortunately the plethora of media comment by the manipulative and the deceitful has much to answer for.

:((

Regards
Paul

[GraemeCook]

Not quite, Paul.

There have been two significant periods when Tassie has run partly on diesel. A major drought in the 1960's and a more recent case caused by an inept government selling too much power to the mainland, at the time of a minor drought.

Tasmania has traditionally had retail electricity prices substantially below mainland rates; that has not been the case for 20 years and prices continually rise. But they have not built a new hydro station for 40 years!

There is now plenty of wind power and solar power available. Hydro can provide both base load and the intermittent load when the sun stops shining and the wind doesn't blow. Unlike coal, it can kick in virtually instantly.

Pull the plug now and no one will notice.

No arguements about investors being entitled to a reasonable profit for their investments and risks undertaken. But a big part of the hostility to Basslink 2 is that profitibility element with certain companies wanting their profits underwritten. That expectation alone will probably scuttle the project, unless there is a major rethink.

[FenceFurniture]

AER, AEMO or AEMCI have to wonder whether most people even know who these organisations are. Some people would have heard of AEMO, only some, and probably only of late.



...this dramatic change in the cost of electricity we are now about to experience.Looking at my electricity usage for the period 19th May 2021 to 18th May 2022: my bills for the period $864.82. With my new "Retention Rates" plan with Origin (i.e as cheap as it can possibly be low as they are prepared to go, and certainly the best rates on the market here in Blue Mountains) the bills would have been $1269.91, which is a 46.8% increase.



....a combination of circumstances, mis-management at governmental level and greed has sparked this dramatic change in the cost of electricityThat sounds like you are blaming The Morrisons, but AFAIK (or AFAWK), Energy was one of the few portfolios they didn't have enough time to swear themselves in to. Otherwise, had they been the Ministers For Energies, all would have been saved and we'd be warm and fuzzy in the safe knowledge that they'd make it rain when we needed it for Hydro, make it sunny when we needed it for Solar – maybe even both at once (!), and then tuck us in at night, when they would bend over backwards and make wind power for us. :D

Hmmm. "The Morrisons".....sound like a good name for a band....perhaps a Death Metal Band.

[FenceFurniture]

But they have not built a new hydro station for 40 years!Yes, but don't forget that they had a damn good crack at a new one in 1982, until they were scuttled in '83.

[Bushmiller]

Not quite, Paul.

There have been two significant periods when Tassie has run partly on diesel. A major drought in the 1960's and a more recent case caused by an inept government selling too much power to the mainland, at the time of a minor drought.

Tasmania has traditionally had retail electricity prices substantially below mainland rates; that has not been the case for 20 years and prices continually rise. But they have not built a new hydro station for 40 years!

There is now plenty of wind power and solar power available. Hydro can provide both base load and the intermittent load when the sun stops shining and the wind doesn't blow. Unlike coal, it can kick in virtually instantly.

Pull the plug now and no one will notice.

No arguements about investors being entitled to a reasonable profit for their investments and risks undertaken. But a big part of the hostility to Basslink 2 is that profitibility element with certain companies wanting their profits underwritten. That expectation alone will probably scuttle the project, unless there is a major rethink.

Graeme

The recent event was when the bass link broke. There may well have been a drought and there was a perfect example of greed resulting in Tassie selling their power to the mainland. However, the breakage was the salient point here.

The link itself was put in place to insulate the island against bad times: Not for when there was plentiful water, plenty of sun and abundant wind. It is much too easy to say "the sun is shining" today. The old mantra of "continuity of supply" has fallen by the wayside in favour of making money; right now.

When you say Tasmania has traditionally had prices below the mainland rates, but not for the last twenty years this is only about the duration of the competitive market (or did you mean the last two years?) Before that there were no prices: Just power. I don't know much about the second Bass Strait link to the exent I didn't know one was even proposed.

I would reiterate my earlier statements in this thread that talk of more renewables without accompanying storage facilities is a recipe for disaster, blackouts and bankruptcy.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

I would reiterate my earlier statements in this thread that talk of more renewables without accompanying storage facilities is a recipe for disaster, blackouts and bankruptcy.Agreed Paul. The actual generation of renewable power is pretty much sorted (but will obviously undergo improvement and expansion). In my view, the vast majority of research money should be going into storage. Say we put 80% of the money into research - under previous Govts that would be 80% of zero = ummm, zero.

[Bushmiller]

I have to wonder whether most people even know who these organisations are. Some people would have heard of AEMO, only some, and probably only of late.


Looking at my electricity usage for the period 19th May 2021 to 18th May 2022: my bills for the period $864.82. With my new "Retention Rates" plan with Origin (i.e as cheap as it can possibly be low as they are prepared to go, and certainly the best rates on the market here in Blue Mountains) the bills would have been $1269.91, which is a 46.8% increase.


That sounds like you are blaming The Morrisons, but AFAIK (or AFAWK), Energy was one of the few portfolios they didn't have enough time to swear themselves in to. Otherwise, had they been the Ministers For Energies, all would have been saved and we'd be warm and fuzzy in the safe knowledge that they'd make it rain when we needed it for Hydro, make it sunny when we needed it for Solar – maybe even both at once (!), and then tuck us in at night, when they would bend over backwards and make wind power for us. :D

Hmmm. "The Morrisons".....sound like a good name for a band....perhaps a Death Metal Band.

FF

Good point about the regulators and a little difficult to know just where their jurisdictions begin and end.

You have a choice of retaillers. Yopu are indeed in a blessed location compared to the one option here. :)

Scomo, with all his other hats probably ran out of "energy" or perhaps that was still to come in his third term or, more likely, he didn't think it rated much attention..

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

You have a choice of retaillers. You are indeed in a blessed location compared to the one option here. :)Yes, I don't understand why there can't be other retailers everywhere. It's not like they actually do anything to deliver the sparks. They are given a meter reading (by the wholesaler or distributor, Endeavour Energy in my case), create a bill, receive the money, pay the wholesaler. It could be done from a home-office, as far as I can see. Apparently they have to fool around buying on the spot market - can be done from anywhere that has internet.

[GraemeCook]

Graeme

The recent event was when the bass link broke. There may well have been a drought and there was a perfect example of greed resulting in Tassie selling their power to the mainland. However, the breakage was the salient point here.

No Paul. We had a five year drought, stoarage dams were run low and, as the drought persisted, the Basslink cable was too small to bring in sufficient energy, so and they fired up the Bell Bay generators. Then Basslink broke and exacerbated an existing problem.



... I would reiterate my earlier statements in this thread that talk of more renewables without accompanying storage facilities is a recipe for disaster, blackouts and bankruptcy.

Regards
Paul

Yep, renewables without storage is a problem! But once you have the Dam, hydro is probably the ideal storage medium. Wind and solar when available, then switch on the hydro!

[GraemeCook]

I am trying to be very cautious with how I word this as I do not wish to inflame things.

I never listen to the radio - there is not one in the house and I never turn on the car radio. But a couple of weeks ago I was in a friends car and he is addicted to talk back radio (Yuk). So I was an unwilling but captive audience.

Some one was having a rant about the problems of electric cars. Most of it was the usual "we'll all be doomed" extremism, but a small part was fairly cogent, and suggested that while electric car owner's had the best motives in their choice of vehicle, that they could actually and inadvertently be exacerbating the electricity supply problems. His argument was quite simple:

Electricity demand follows four fairly consistent bands during the day; low demand overnight, moderate demand during the day, high demand at breakfast time and peak demand at dinner time. (AEMO website verifies this.)
Absolute peak demand occurs between 5.00 and 7.00 pm each night.
Electric car owners leave work at 5.00 pm and drive home and immediately plug in their cars to recharge, right at the peak of the demand cycle.
Thus they exacerbated a major existing problem.
And those cars are fully charged well before midnight when there is excess supply.
Only a small percentage of electric cars are charged on off-peak supplies. (I have not been able to verify this.)


He offered two solutions

Only allow electric cars at home to recharge on off-peak tariffs so they do not exacerbate the problem. Even if you replaced his compulsion with encourage this would be beneficial.


His second solution was even better but required fairly sophisticated technology:

Install a "super smart"(*) electricity metering system.
At 5.00 pm he knocks off work, drives home and plugs in the car,
The super smart meter knoows that there is high demand for electricity so it draws from the car battery into the grid - the car becomes part of the solution.
Then, when the grid moves into a low demand period the super smart meter reverses the current flow and charges the battery - again the car is evening demand through the day.
If he has an early start or a very high demand day ahead, then he presses the over-ride button and the super smart meter ensures the car is fully charged by, say, 6.00 am next day.
(*) He used another phrase for "super smart" but I cannot remember it. I only half listened until I realised he was talking sense.


He also irritated the bejusus out of me because every step he was advocating he was also saying should make compulsory. Most people want to do the right thing and if that option is available and they know about it then they will adopt it. Especially with anything involving renewables - it is the driving force. Compulsion would probably be counterproductive with many people, like me.

[Chris Parks]

Graham, most BEV (battery electric vehicle) owners don't need to charge their vehicles every night and those who do can set the period of recharge after peak demand time. It looks like my son could be getting an electric company car as part of his new job at BYD and he will only need to re-charge once a week but in his case at work.

I echo your thought on radio, I have had my car for 6 years and I don't know if the radio works, the bit that plays music and audio books works and that is all I care about.

[Bushmiller]

No Paul. We had a five year drought, stoarage dams were run low and, as the drought persisted, the Basslink cable was too small to bring in sufficient energy, so and they fired up the Bell Bay generators. Then Basslink broke and exacerbated an existing problem.




Yep, renewables without storage is a problem! But once you have the Dam, hydro is probably the ideal storage medium. Wind and solar when available, then switch on the hydro!

Graeme

During that period Tassie was selling power into the mainland, because they could make money. I saw it. That unconsionable activity (particularly if the drought had already been in existence for some time) depleted the dams further just to make money and when the Bass link broke they were up that well known creek: No paddle.

The DC link was put in place to safeguard Tasmania particularly against drought and not so greedy companies or governments could make money. There may well have been a problem any way, but it would not have been anywhere near so acute. The Bass Strait strategy would have worked if it had been used the way it was intended.

Remember, all generation sources have a fatal flaw. Hydro only works when you have water. Ask the Europeans at the moment. It is a big mistake, in my opinion, to place such great store in any single source of energy.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I am trying to be very cautious with how I word this as I do not wish to inflame things.

I never listen to the radio - there is not one in the house and I never turn on the car radio. But a couple of weeks ago I was in a friends car and he is addicted to talk back radio (Yuk). So I was an unwilling but captive audience.

Some one was having a rant about the problems of electric cars. Most of it was the usual "we'll all be doomed" extremism, but a small part was fairly cogent, and suggested that while electric car owner's had the best motives in their choice of vehicle, that they could actually and inadvertently be exacerbating the electricity supply problems. His argument was quite simple:

Electricity demand follows four fairly consistent bands during the day; low demand overnight, moderate demand during the day, high demand at breakfast time and peak demand at dinner time. (AEMO website verifies this.)
Absolute peak demand occurs between 5.00 and 7.00 pm each night.
Electric car owners leave work at 5.00 pm and drive home and immediately plug in their cars to recharge, right at the peak of the demand cycle.
Thus they exacerbated a major existing problem.
And those cars are fully charged well before midnight when there is excess supply.
Only a small percentage of electric cars are charged on off-peak supplies. (I have not been able to verify this.)


He offered two solutions

Only allow electric cars at home to recharge on off-peak tariffs so they do not exacerbate the problem. Even if you replaced his compulsion with encourage this would be beneficial.


His second solution was even better but required fairly sophisticated technology:

Install a "super smart"(*) electricity metering system.
At 5.00 pm he knocks off work, drives home and plugs in the car,
The super smart meter knoows that there is high demand for electricity so it draws from the car battery into the grid - the car becomes part of the solution.
Then, when the grid moves into a low demand period the super smart meter reverses the current flow and charges the battery - again the car is evening demand through the day.
If he has an early start or a very high demand day ahead, then he presses the over-ride button and the super smart meter ensures the car is fully charged by, say, 6.00 am next day.
(*) He used another phrase for "super smart" but I cannot remember it. I only half listened until I realised he was talking sense.


He also irritated the bejusus out of me because every step he was advocating he was also saying should make compulsory. Most people want to do the right thing and if that option is available and they know about it then they will adopt it. Especially with anything involving renewables - it is the driving force. Compulsion would probably be counterproductive with many people, like me.

Graeme

His comments have some elements of truth, like all such things, but there are two stages towards EVs. The first is while much of the energy produced is still by fossil fuelled stations while the second is when the great majority of power is produced by renewables, which is arguably still a long way off: I, for example, may never see this.

The dynamic is not the same for both scenarios. For the moment, it really doesn't matter much when the vehicle is charged other than if it occurs at night the EV is being charged by fossil fuel energy and largely negates the benefit of an EV. Once renewables are the prime source of energy it will be important to charge during the day and I would expect tarrifs (money fundamentally) will dictate when people charge their vehicles. As time goes on, charging stations will replace fuel stations, although not neccessarily in the the same type of locations (probably many will be in office blocks or other places of work.)

Arguments by your radio commentator of this nature are not really helpful and are reminiscent of the Luddites (this is a bit rich coming from me I know). When the combustion engine first appeared there was much conjecture about doom and gloom and for a period of time, in the UK at least, a person had to walk in front of a motor vehicle holding a red light (I wonder how many were propositioned). Such is the nonsense spouted when people don't understand what they are talking about.

Fear is a big driver of distrust and many governments, and others, have used it successfully to promote their own agendas. While I don't think for one moment it will be plain sailing, I fully expect the issues will be sorted out. One thing your radio man should have mentioned and as you have not mentioned it I guess he did not raise it, is that the demand for electricity will increase to much more than is currently required. While on this thread we have focused on electrical generation and how it is produced, it is worth remembering than more electricity will be needed to cope with the substitution of gas and petrol.

Actually the fact that your commentator offered solutions, which seemed quite reasonable, seems to indicate he was making a mountain out of a molehill.

Regards
Paul

PS: I only listen to Radio National.

[woodPixel]

He offered two solutions

Only allow electric cars at home to recharge on off-peak tariffs so they do not exacerbate the problem. Even if you replaced his compulsion with encourage this would be beneficial.


His second solution was even better but required fairly sophisticated technology:

Install a "super smart"(*) electricity metering system.
At 5.00 pm he knocks off work, drives home and plugs in the car,
The super smart meter knoows that there is high demand for electricity so it draws from the car battery into the grid - the car becomes part of the solution.
Then, when the grid moves into a low demand period the super smart meter reverses the current flow and charges the battery - again the car is evening demand through the day.
If he has an early start or a very high demand day ahead, then he presses the over-ride button and the super smart meter ensures the car is fully charged by, say, 6.00 am next day.



Our Radio friend has reinvented exactly what occurs.

See Future of the Australian Electricity Market (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/future-australian-electricity-market-240514-post2286397#post2286397)

and Tesla Energy Plan | Tesla Australia (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/tep)

and Australian researchers to study how Tesla car batteries can power grid | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/technology/australian-researchers-study-how-tesla-car-batteries-can-power-grid-2021-11-17/)

This last article was the very first to appear on a basic search.

Its on Teslas bloody website. Radio Man didn't even bother to read the front page of the very system he was criticising.

It is obvious that a car owner with a massive battery would suck in cheap solar/wind energy during the day/off-peak and "sell" it back on-demand during peak.

Its obvious.


On compulsion, that won't be necessary. I've watched three people that have electric cars at my building. They get home and plug it in automatically. I'd wager that if their carpark at work has a charger they'd plug it in. Leaving it plugged in while parked will become as automatic as locking the car (who even thinks about it any more, just subliminally press the button as one walks away!). There will sit a million cars with massive batteries ready to pump up the network.

As an aside, I was considering upgrading the HSV to a new motor (also a '59 VW Beetle). I enquired with the Strata Managers about putting in smart chargers. They are $2000 each and there is talk to put them in a large number of the spots.

I think the future is VERY bright (assuming we don't go to war with China next month!)


edit - this just popped up (cos THEY aren't watching, are they! :rolleyes:) Tesla's virtual power plant had its first event helping the grid – looks like the future | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/08/18/teslas-virtual-power-plant-first-event-helping-grid-future/)

[GraemeCook]

Our Radio friend has reinvented exactly what occurs. ...

Not quite true - he has reinvented what might occur if we lived in a perfect world - the technology might exist but its implementation has barely started.

[GraemeCook]

... PS: I only listen to Radio National.

That is only one more than me; I have absolutely no idea who I was listening to or what station he works for. And less interest!

[FenceFurniture]

the technology might exist but its implementation has barely started.I suspect the same could be said of BEVs. We have, IIRC, the slowest take up of BEVs in the OECD (or something) for various reasons, which only means that the radio jock was probably harping on about a more or less non-existent problem (if there's bugger all BEVs then there's bugger all peak recharge problem).

[woodPixel]

Here is a project in China that generates 910kw of solar in the desert.

Its obvious to see the difference its having on the soil and remediation.

We have a fair bit of sun and desert here.... 1+1?


https://youtu.be/qR9MLlQakK8

[Bushmiller]

WP

That is interesting. The re-vegetation is particularly impressive, but the region does not seem quite as "desert" as we are led to believe (just by the location and people, although that could have grown up since the project started. Also I noted they have underground water. However, and I know I'm sounding negative, the issue in Oz is not the space as wehave nearly as much as the Chinese, but the distances the transmission lines have to go to reach the populated areas. There are already many stand alone power grids which are that way because it is too far, too expensive and too inefficient (voltage losses) to run the wires. To go significant distance the voltage has to be higher, which means the transmission lines are a heavier gauge and the towers are correspondingly bigger. This translates into expense.

Having said all that, it looks like for them it is doing a great job providing not too much is propaganda and hyperbole.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

The subject of EVs has come up in recent threads, not unsurprisingly and I saw this article on charging stations. It may be of interest. I know very little about them and only saw my first one a couple of months ago at Colangatta. I have to get out more:

How Much Does It Cost To Use an Electric Car Charging Station in Australia? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/how-much-does-it-cost-to-use-an-electric-car-charging-station-in-australia/ar-AAQMYTB?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dff3e8fe648f4e8ea2a3901c0b82b8ec)

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

I haven't read this yet, but the headline shouted that it might be appropriate to this thread.

China drought causes Yangtze to dry up, sparking shortage of hydropower | China | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/22/china-drought-causes-yangtze-river-to-dry-up-sparking-shortage-of-hydropower)

[yvan]

I haven't read this yet, but the headline shouted that it might be appropriate to this thread.

China drought causes Yangtze to dry up, sparking shortage of hydropower | China | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/22/china-drought-causes-yangtze-river-to-dry-up-sparking-shortage-of-hydropower)


I heard on the ABC Radio that the shortage of power has forced some businesses to shorten their opening hours and some manufacturers to close temporarily

[woodPixel]

These serious articles are coming thick and fast now!

This one is particularly interesting as it discusses a battery tech I mentioned previously.

Have a read, then think...hmmm....trucks, buildings, suburb-level or small regional storage....

EV shipping is set to blow internal combustion engines out of the water – pv magazine USA (https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/08/22/ev-shipping-is-set-to-blow-internal-combustion-engines-out-of-the-water/)

[woodPixel]

516030

[havabeer69]

Here is a project in China that generates 910kw of solar in the desert.

Its obvious to see the difference its having on the soil and remediation.

We have a fair bit of sun and desert here.... 1+1?


https://youtu.be/qR9MLlQakK8

with out clicking the video. is that meant to be kw or mw?

[GraemeCook]

with out clicking the video. is that meant to be kw or mw?

Don't be pedantic!

If Woody had meant to say megawatts then he would have said megawatts. That istallation is enough to power 380 radiators - just try to imagine 380 radiators massed!

[Bushmiller]

with out clicking the video. is that meant to be kw or mw?

haveabeer

The video indicates it is MW. Currently they are generating 710MW with another couple of hundred MW still going in. Adjacent to this project is another installation, the largest PV project in China, being constructed and capable, they say, of 2000MWs when complete. The area beneath the panels is re-vegetated, the locals are employed to wash the panels and they generate of course, so it seems, on the face of it, to be a win. Video presenter looks very western, but clearly fluent in Chinese. Subtitles in English and Italian.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I have, in this thread, mentioned that battery power seems less likely for commercial transportation and that some other method of propulsion may be necessary. I have also suggested hydrogen power, which I have to say has been derided by both friends and colleagues at work. However:

Whistle blows in Germany for world's first hydrogen train fleet (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/whistle-blows-in-germany-for-world-s-first-hydrogen-train-fleet/ar-AA111NTs?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=9d28d69a27e74f7aab93b5362b716da1)

Once the first moves towards new technology have been made, it all suddenly seems more plausible.

516052

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Everything is impossible, until it isn't.

It can't be done, until it is.


I heard these repeatedly throughout the pandemic. As a society we shattered every preconception we had about how out economy worked, how we work, how people would/wouldn't behave, how systems were believed to fail catastrophically and didn't (I was a bit of an enthusiast on this one).

Same with the renewables arguments.... it all seems so HARD, until the stuff actually occurs... then we go on with life as normal and routinely accept the previously impossible.

I really do try to have the most ardent hope that people can be visionary on these issues. The issues feel so important.

Hydrogen will be a HUGE part of the storage solution.

[FenceFurniture]

Everything is impossible, until it isn't. It can't be done, until it is.
Hydrogen will be a HUGE part of the storage solution.Agreed. Whatever did we do until the Earth became spherical?

Re hydrogen: there's certainly enough of it available for a good long while. Just a matter of sorting out the green side of it. It will happen.

[Chris Parks]

Hydrogen will be a HUGE part of the storage solution.

It won't be until there is enough alternative energy to produce it and it definitely won't be used to power ICE's, that is a definite dead end and when Hydrogen is spoken of there needs to be some definition of how it is going to be used as a lot of people think of it powering ICE's.

[FenceFurniture]

... a lot of people think of it powering ICE's.As I understand it, the hydrogen is used to generate electricity in an EV, so no ICE as such

[Bushmiller]

As I understand it, the hydrogen is used to generate electricity in an EV, so no ICE as such

I think that is the case with the Alstom train, but passenger cars may not have the same capability as you need roof space for the solar panels. That is until the whole car bodywork becomes a solar panel. Trouble there is that even a mild bingle may render your vehicle immobile.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Solar Panels are not required (https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/94720/hydrogen-powered-cars-fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-explained). That's why the future of H2 is so big (as long as it's green). It's pretty much go anywhere with a big enough tank. Now on container ships you can add a huge amount of panels as well – they hardly need to be aerodynamic.

[Chris Parks]

As I understand it, the hydrogen is used to generate electricity in an EV, so no ICE as such

In the linked instance you are correct but there is some activity led by Toyota and BMW to use it in ICE cars as well and in discussions about Hydrogen it can be confusing as to how the vehicle is powered either with an ICE or a fuel cell and it is the latter that is the future of Hydrogen. The UK are already in the process of rolling out Hydrogen networks to replace natural gas in homes

(1) hydrogen replace natural gas in uk - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hydrogen+replace+natural+gas+in+uk)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uNKPDREa-Q&ab_channel=SkillBuilder

[Chris Parks]

Solar Panels are not required (https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/94720/hydrogen-powered-cars-fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-explained). That's why the future of H2 is so big (as long as it's green). It's pretty much go anywhere with a big enough tank. Now on container ships you can add a huge amount of panels as well – they hardly need to be aerodynamic.

I can't see a big use of panels on a container ship because they would have to removed for loading. A car carrier, tanker etc yes they might work.

[Bushmiller]

I am hesitant to include too much regarding The Russo Ukrainian war but the threats to their large Nuclear power station, Zaporizhzhia, does emphasis the vulnerability of the Nukes in times of crisis. The following report describes the potential for catastrophe. There may still be one unit running (it was disconnected for a time) but once the last unit is shut down it is still essential to maintain cooling supplies to the core. However, if they are no longer generating power themselves, they have to import elecctricity from the grid. It would normally come from a nearby coal fired generator, but where there were once three lines coming in, there is now only one. The other two have been disconnected.

All power stations have emergency diesel generators to enable units to be safely run down and stored. This is mainly for cooling and other essential supplies. In a Nuke, these requirements are far more critical and while Zaporizhzhia has a diesel (maybe more than one) they need diesel fuel too. If that should fail.........

There is also some talk that Russia may install lines to Russia instead of Ukraine, but I don't know how likely or feasible that is: It may be media hype.

Shelling disconnects Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from Ukraine grid (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/shelling-disconnects-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-from-ukraine-grid/ar-AA115URw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=259534a53ccd8ba454fa114011655d9c)

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

Tripped over another Battery idea today.

Cheap, high capacity, and fast: New aluminum battery tech promises it all | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/new-aluminum-sulfur-battery-tech-offers-full-charging-in-under-a-minute/)

An interesting read.

Obviously this isn't for ones car, but it would be interesting for Big Batteries.


There is another I touched on earlier called a "flow" battery and an Iron-sulphide battery.

These giant mass storage units, being dirt cheap, might get us somewhere towards suburb or building-level solutions. They don't need to move, so weights not an issue, plus they can soak up all the locally generated excess power during the day and release it locally too, which is good.

If we can plonk these in the big cities to start, we can ween ourselves off coal bit-by-bit, then more-by-more.


Despite the emotion in all this, I don't think the real plan, right now, is for 100% coal eradication. Obviously we can't do that this year, or next, or maybe in 5 or 10, but each step is a lowering. Imagine if we could lower coal use by 90% over 5 or 10 years. Everyone would think this is a "win".

Nobody would say that's a bad thing.

Next we need to plant 100 trillion trees and fix the ocean plastic problem :)

[FenceFurniture]

Nobody would say that's a bad thing.His Enormousness might.

[ian]

I don't think the real plan, right now, is for 100% coal eradication. Obviously we can't do that this year, or next, or maybe in 5 or 10, but each step is a lowering. Imagine if we could lower coal use by 90% over 5 or 10 years. Everyone would think this is a "win".

Nobody would say that's a bad thing.
careful what you wish for WP.

coal fired power stations take around a full day to ramp up to full output or ramp down to zero.
the grid frequency is principally maintained by what is known as spinning reserve -- historically spinning reserve would be around 25% of a station's nominated output.
In more more recent times the spinning reserve has been redefined to be around 10% of rated output.
However, recent breakdowns in the coal power stations have demonstrated the risk of reducing spinning reserve to such a low level.


At the point where coal generated electricity represents less than about 60% of total electricity output -- electricity output defined so as to include the spinning reserve -- the economics of operating ANY coal fired generation will become problematic.
I envision a future where coal generation is only viable for that portion of the average day where wind power is not available.

The alternative to coal will be fast starting natural gas (another fossil fuel) turbines -- but with the east coast's gas reserves being largely exported, we all know that the cost of gas, if it is even available, has become.


Given all that it will take more than the battery in a BEV connected to a smart meter to provide grid balance.


As I've previously said in this thread, on a national basis, Australia needs the ability to generate 3 days worth of electricity for the sun's not shining and the wind is not blowing.
Given that the demand for electricity is expected to double (or is it more?) over the near future, the need to include the charging of a fleet of BEVs would increase the storage requirement (measured in thousands of TWh) to around 6 days worth at current consumption, perhaps more.


To be economic, any really large battery will need to be made of dirt.
The best battery technology I've seen so far is a carbon heat storage battery that produces electricity by allowing the emitted "heat" photons to pass through a reflecting solar collector. I believe the electrical efficiency of such a heat battery is around 50%

[havabeer69]

careful what you wish for WP.

coal fired power stations take around a full day to ramp up to full output or ramp down to zero.
the grid frequency is principally maintained by what is known as spinning reserve -- historically spinning reserve would be around 25% of a station's nominated output.
In more more recent times the spinning reserve has been redefined to be around 10% of rated output.


couple of things about these statements.

the ramp up ramp down is not a full day. its dependant on the generator, so i'll go with ours... our default is 6MW a minute. we've also gone through trials and can go down as low at 180Mw but the normal low is 200MW with the upper cap being 660MW. so the basic math is:
660 MW - 200MW = 460MW
460MW / 6MW min = 76 minutes

so it takes us a bit over an hour to go from max out put to our lowest rated output. it does play havoc with metal rates of change and other things but it's pretty much the norm. 1MW a minute or 3MW a minute is the preferred rate but we have to play to AEMO's rules and its what we're rated for. Getting down to zero takes all of about 1 second with the press of the red button. Starting back up is its own kettle of fish as it depends on the temperature of the boiler/drum/turbine.


spinning reserve is a station specific thing and is set to what % you'd like. its actually a terrible thing for efficiency and so the lower the better. its also not based on the station's out put but a sliding figured based on the steam pressure needed for a certain amount of MW. So if we're at 18MPa of steam we'll have 1.8MPa of steam in reserve (this is based on the volume in the throttle valve steam chest) and will give a certain MW figure. So a 660MW unit does not always keep a 10% value in reserve, we're not going to have 66MW (10% of 660) up our sleeve if we're running at 300MW as it would be a huge inefficiency loss


I'm really looking forward to the governments renewable gas they keep spruiking with Ad's on youtube.

[woodPixel]

Illuminating discussions!

I sent this to my kids. It's a wake up call... Energy bills to soar for millions as price cap hiked to £3,549 (https://news.sky.com/story/energy-bills-to-soar-for-millions-as-price-cap-hiked-to-3549-12681213)

Some of the horror stories of truly hideous gas bills and cost blowouts in households.... Reddit Discussion on article (https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/wy16gz/)

[GraemeCook]

... The alternative to coal will be fast starting natural gas (another fossil fuel) turbines -- but with the east coast's gas reserves being largely exported, we all know that the cost of gas, if it is even available, has become. ...

Would an alternative alternative be to revert to coal gas, rather than natural gas, Ian?