Future of the Australian Electricity Market [Archive] - Page 12

yvan

8th May 2023, 09:09 AM

Apparently people are already ratting the battery packs out of written off EVs (of all brands) to use as very high capacity house batteries. BYD state that the lithium iron phosphate battery (LiFePO 4 battery) in Atto 3 is designed to be shoehorned into an enclosure for use as a house battery when it has reached end of life for the car (maybe degraded to 80% of original capacity - but that's still 50kWh for home use vs the 14kWh of Tesla wall battery). Trouble is the BYD Blade battery is expected to last for over 1 million km in the car, so I may not be around to see that !! Also, at the current (sic) rate of battery chemistry development, it's pretty safe to say that any existing technology will be obsolete in a few years anyway.

Given that these Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries are so much better, what is stopping these to be standard in domestic wall batteries?
I agree that battery chemistry will make current batteries obsolete. On the other hand, one has to bite the bullet sooner or later! We happen to have bought of 5kW panel array 10 years ago when we had the opportunity to do so and despite the fact that panel efficiency has improved significantly, we have not regretted doing so.

We are thinking about adding batteries to our system but the "cost recovery" would a quite long, particularly now that electricity costs are no longer dictated by supply & demand only and are becoming a political issue.

Cheers,
Yvan

BobL

8th May 2023, 09:49 AM

Real cost recovery is an interesting phenomenon.

Spending $10k on a battery to get say $5k back over its lifetime is a narrow way of looking at the "overall cost"

If NOT spending $10k generates $100k+ worth of problem down the road for our kids and grand kids to solve then the $5k immediate cost is cheap.
Leaving the $10k in a will for our kids to solve a $100k+ future problem can also look pretty churlish.

Same reason why I will eventually be getting an EV and replacing my gas HWS with a heat pump (we already have solar and are electric for everything else).
All up I'm considering spending somewhere in the $80-90k range and at this price i'm definitely not saving me any money.
Not sure about a house battery because the car battery will probably soak up any spare solar. I'll wait and see how it goes
I've had a long chat with my son about this and how this would reduce his inheritance, but he is more than happy for me to do this.
AND
if I die sooner rather than later he will inherit the lot anyway.

All this manly applies to people who have the readies, people struggling to pay for pressing expenses like rent and power etc will have different priorities.

In 2010 at a small ski resort village in the northern Italian alps the householders and resort buildings were using/importing/burning $100k+ a year of heating oil to provide heat mainly during the winter.
The net result of all this was that a combination of the topography microclimate together with burning oil turned the local ski fields "brown" and covering the village on many days with a foul smelling smog.
A group of locals hired some engineers (including one of my cousins) and they came up with a plan to burn green waste trimmed from the ever encroaching forrests along road sides, and sawdust from the half dozen or so saw mills in they area.
They setup a pari of highly efficient 10MW biofueled burners that provided hot water to all houses in the village via a large loop PLUS generated electric power.
The stumbling block was every house in the village had to replace their oil burning heaters with a smart heat exchanger at a cost of about 2k euros.
For families with small kids suffering from the smog this was a no brainer but for seniors (mainly older women) approaching the ends of their lives it was a bit harder.
The town committee in charge of the project set up teams of parents and kids to visit these grannies and explain to them why they should switch.
Within a month they had everyone on board.
Result is clean ski fields, no smog - just an occasional faint whiff of piney aroma.

OK this is a small scale local solution and is not being implemented on a larger scale due to the energy economics of biofuel transport and large scale particle generation by burning impacting on health.
Biofuel burning has since been capped in Italy while more efficient burners are being developed, but it still shows a future way of thinking that we seem to be slow at getting onto here in Oz.

GraemeCook

8th May 2023, 12:32 PM

Same reason why I will eventually be getting an EV ...

And they will stop making ICE's.

... Not sure about a house battery because the car battery will probably soak up any spare solar. I'll wait and see how it goes ...

Bob, you have the level of mathematics required; have you considered doing some simulations on the various permutations of the alternate strategy of using the car battery as the house battery? If you have an EV it is a sunk cost. I will remain mute for the time being so as not to influence you.

Nevertheless. There are 8,760 hours in a year.

A car driven 20,000 kms in a year at an average speed of 80 kmh is actually driven for 250 hours. It is parked for 8,510 hours - or 97.1% of the time.

A low usage vehicle like mine that does 6,000 kms per year is parked for 99.1% of the year - mainly in my drive.

A commuter's car may spend ~25% of the year parked near the place of employment, mainly in daylight hours.

Most people use their vehicles for less than 100 kms per day, except for the occasional long trip, usually planned in advance.

It would not take a lot of fuzzy logic and a learning curve on a very smart energy manager to integrate solar, the car, the grid and the family's usage patterns.

Over to you.

Mr Brush

8th May 2023, 12:35 PM

Another thing to consider is the cost of getting grid power connected to larger acreage properties. We're on 20 acres, house situated towards the back of the block, and I think the cost to get 3-phase power connected from the front boundary was $30k when we first built 20 years ago. I hate to think what it would be now, probably at least $50K or a lot more. The original house had in-slab electric heating running on 3-phase off peak (which was actually surprisingly economical), but due to the damage in the bushfire this wasn't re-usable even though the house slab survived. Bung 15kW of solar on the roof, add some kind of battery storage (house battery, or car battery when V2H is more supported), and even a small back up generator, and go completely off grid? Total cost would still have to be way less than getting a rural property grid connected on Day 1, plus no more supply charges or power bills for all time.

Not convinced about small wind turbines though - cost/benefit analysis doesn't seem to stack up for small home scale systems.

BobL

8th May 2023, 02:12 PM

And they will stop making ICE's.
.
.
.

It would not take a lot of fuzzy logic and a learning curve on a very smart energy manager to integrate solar, the car, the grid and the family's usage patterns.
Agreed and When they are available I be one of the first in line to buy.

FenceFurniture

8th May 2023, 03:42 PM

It would not take a lot of fuzzy logic and a learning curve on a very smart energy manager to integrate solar, the car, the grid and the family's usage patterns.It seems to me that we are not ALL that far away from a nicely integrated system being available. Solar Panels are more or less fully developed (but there will no doubt be improvements and costs cuts), car batteries appear to be viable right now, and there'll be significant developments in the next couple of years. Home battery? Nah, waste of money once we have V2H or V2X cars all over the place. Maybe the inverter will need changing with the implementation of an interface to stitch all the components together?

Bushmiller

8th May 2023, 03:57 PM

This may be of interest and explain some of the detail on EV batteries, their capacities, charge times and ratings:

EV battery size, charge speeds and range explained | TechRadar (https://www.techradar.com/news/ev-battery-size-charge-speeds-and-range-explained)

Regards
Paul

Chris Parks

8th May 2023, 05:08 PM

It seems to me that we are not ALL that far away from a nicely integrated system. Solar Panels are more or less fully developed (but there will no doubt be improvements and costs cuts), car batteries appear to be viable right now, and there'll be significant developments in the next couple of years. Home battery? Nah, waste of money once we have V2H or V2X cars all over the place. Maybe the inverter will need changing with the implementation of an interface to stitch all the components together?

A lot of wishful thinking there, not everyone will have a BEV due to supply constraints in manufacturing and not everyone will have solar panels due to any number of other problems, they don't own the home, apartment living, no off street parking etc.

Keep in mind most (the whole two or three of them) BEV's V2L is limited to 3.6kw and that is not going to keep a house very warm during the hours before bedtime even in Oz let alone OS where it gets seriously cold.

BobL

8th May 2023, 05:26 PM

It seems to me that we are not ALL that far away from a nicely integrated system. Solar Panels are more or less fully developed (but there will no doubt be improvements and costs cuts), car batteries appear to be viable right now, and there'll be significant developments in the next couple of years. Home battery? Nah, waste of money once we have V2H or V2X cars all over the place. Maybe the inverter will need changing with the implementation of an interface to stitch all the components together?

I reckon there will always be a use for a small-medium size house battery when the sun aint shining and your car is not at home or charging.
EG
If you go away for a holiday with your EV, a home battery will easily run your frigde/freezers overnights.
It''s a stinking hot day and you've decide to go out for the evening, a home battery will keep your ACs ticking over till you get home.

Also if the EV is charging can it be used to power your house, You've been away for a long trip and you schedule a long recharge for an all day charge starting 9am next morning and your Solar may not be able to run your house and recharge the EV at the same time.

Battery costs will eventually come done whereby people who don't like sucking off the grid can still have one even for incidental use..

FenceFurniture

8th May 2023, 05:39 PM

It seems to me that we are not ALL that far away from a nicely integrated system being available. I should have added the "being available".

A lot of wishful thinking there, not everyone will have a BEV due to supply constraints in manufacturing and not everyone will have solar panels due to any number of other problems, they don't own the home, apartment living, no off street parking etc.

Keep in mind most (the whole two or three of them) BEV's V2L is limited to 3.6kw and that is not going to keep a house very warm during the hours before bedtime even in Oz let alone OS where it gets seriously cold.I'm talking V2H or V2X. V2L is really only useful on the job or a trip away when just have to have freshly brewed coffee available anytime, and just can't stand the thought of using a portable gas stove. :D

woodPixel

8th May 2023, 05:45 PM

FenceFurniture

8th May 2023, 05:45 PM

I reckon there will always be a use for a small-medium size house battery when the sun aint shining and your car is not at home or charging.Maybe. It would vary for everyone though, and could be easily analysed with a spreadsheet: how many kWh do I think I'll use per year for the life of the battery, and how much does the battery cost and live for
VERSES
how much will it cost to simply use the grid for those periods, and trade it off against whatever feed-in tariffs are available.

This situation could be where modular batteries come into play, provided it's simple enough to manage the swapping out (they'll be mighty heavy for some time yet).

FenceFurniture

8th May 2023, 05:48 PM

But for us city slickers who live in shoe boxes, the option of a solar panel or battery install is not there. What we need, akin to the BIV, is an investable resource.Yes, community batteries are sure to become a thing.

doug3030

8th May 2023, 06:26 PM

V2L is really only useful on the job or a trip away when just have to have freshly brewed coffee available anytime, and just can't stand the thought of using a portable gas stove. :D

I can do that now with my diesel Colorado. Heck, we were using 12 volt jugs in Army vehicles back in the 1970's, probably a lot longer, but that's when I was doing it. I have 12 volt and 240 volt available on the road all the time. I have a 40-litre Engel fridge in the back running 24/7. I run a freezer in the back too when on longer trips, also 24/7.

We had a power blackout last year sometime, I plugged the modem and Julie's work computer and desk lighting into the back of the ute and she continued working from home and her bosses didn't know a thing about it until she told them.

Had the blackout lasted much longer I could have set up the camping solar panels and been able to run all the essentials and a few luxuries from the Auxiliary batteries in the back of the ute.

I know that this is not the integrated system that is being discussed hare but the point is that a lot of the same ends can be met with comparatively small batteries and solar panels but it shows how much can be done already with a lot less than a full-on car battery.

Chris Parks

8th May 2023, 11:26 PM

I should have added the "being available".

I'm talking V2H or V2X. V2L is really only useful on the job or a trip away when just have to have freshly brewed coffee available anytime, and just can't stand the thought of using a portable gas stove. :D

That does not change anything if the maximum draw is 3600 Watts.

Chris Parks

8th May 2023, 11:31 PM

BobLs Italian Village (BIV) creates a new idea of what "the grid" may be.

For those on a 20Ha farm, a DIY is needed. Its obvious.

But for us city slickers who live in shoe boxes, the option of a solar panel or battery install is not there.

What we need, akin to the BIV, is an investable resource. If I cannot spend 10k or 50k on solar and batteries, perhaps I can INVEST the same in another project? A community battery, a community solar install, or even something bigger.

We should have an option, via the ASX, or a specialised sub-board, where I can put my dough.

It's the wild west and will be for the next decade. Everyone is coming up with thousands of ideas and none of them are going into universal use because everyone thinks their pet idea is the answer to the world's problems so no constructive and lasting decisions are made.

GraemeCook

9th May 2023, 09:39 AM

Heck, we were using 12 volt jugs in Army vehicles back in the 1970's

Yep, and all designed to Mil Spec, and only costing $500 each - in 1960's dollars.

FenceFurniture

9th May 2023, 10:00 AM

That does not change anything if the maximum draw is 3600 Watts.It's only V2L that has that limitation. It would seem that V2L is designed for having 240v power away from home, or to be used into the home for an emergency situation. V2H is designed to run the whole house.

Chris Parks

9th May 2023, 11:11 AM

Can you show me where I can find the specs on V2H because I can't find them.

Bushmiller

9th May 2023, 11:35 AM

A link that explains some of the new EV bi-directional charging technology already available in some countries (UK for example) and should arrive on Australian shores at some point in the future.

V2G vs V2H vs V2L - A Guide to Bidirectional Charging in Australia | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/bidirectional-charging-explained-a-guide-to-v2l-v2g-and-v2h-technology-86820)

One issue that I see is the balancing act that needs to be addressed. From an owners point of view the amount you return to the grid, if you are in the fortunate position to do this, has to be balanced against your likely use of the vehicle. AEMO usually have a fair idea of how much power is available at any given moment and a pretty good estimate of how much power is required by the Eastern seaboard. The return of electricity to the grid under the circumstances described above would be at the whim of the vehicle owner. That does not really make for a stable grid or a sound economic basis for the major players in power generation.

In an extreme situation we could see many renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro and possibly something else too) of power generation without the commensurate storage other than car batteries. I don't really think that is likely as car batteries, particularly if limited to 3.6Kw (I don't really know about that, but it was mentioned in an earlier post), would be unable to cope with the demand from industry. Clearly there is a lot of development to be done, both with the technology and the application.

If a person is in the fortunate position of being able to afford an EV, it seems to make sense to hold off until bi-directional capability is available. Interesting that Tesla does not offer this, presumeably because of the conflict and adverse effect on sales of their other product, the Tesla wall. I would expect the wall to go the same way as that one in Berlin. In any event, The Tesla Wall is too small, too limited (an hour) and too expensive. Musk will put it on the cars as sales drop off.

Regards
Paul

GraemeCook

9th May 2023, 03:19 PM

Can you show me where I can find the specs on V2H because I can't find them.

I cannot find anything specific, either, Chris, although the general debate has been going on for over a year.

Essentially a Tesla Powerwall stores 13.1 kWh of electricity whereas the longest range Tesla S has a 100 kWh battery. By using a small or large part of that car battery capacity in the house, you can effectively have the equivalent of a Powerwall without significant extra cost. You just need an effective energy management system! Remember, cars are parked, usually at home, for most of their life. They are only driven for 2 or 3% of the time.

One of the challenges is in the absense of a link between the wholesale and retail markets for electricity. Wholesale prices fluctuate during the day with supply and demand. Retailers sell you electricity at a fiiixed price and buy from you at a heavily discounted fixed price. A look at the demand and spot pricing for Queensland for the last 48 hours will illustrate this.

525834

My reading of these curves, remembering that roof top solar is not measured, is:

Demand, green curve & RHS scale, peaks daily during breakfast and dinner preparation,
Price, mauve curve & LHS scale, peaks daily at approximately the same time,
Lowest demand is during day time when roof top solars are contributing significantly,
The "excess supply" in day time actually forces spot price into the negatives,
Night time demand is actually higher because of absense of solar input

An electric commuter car returning home at 6pm will plug into the period of highest demand and actually exacerbate the problem.

Now, if we lived in an ideal world, that electric car could:

Charge with roof top solar when available,
Feed into the grid during periods of peak prices,
Top up from the grid when prices were low,
Maintain a minimum commuting range in the batteries - 100 or 150 kms?
Have a over-ride prior to longer trips.

Just like when cars replaced horses, we will have to develop an entire new infrastructure for electric vehicles.

GraemeCook

9th May 2023, 03:51 PM

Something weird is happening with electricity wholesale prices in Tasmania.

Basic economic theory says that prices are the intersection of supply and demand.

The evening peak demand happens from 5.30 pm each day,
It get dark in Hobart at around 5.30 pm now,
Solar panels do not work in the dark,
So, peak demand and no solar input, then prices should soar,
But the pricing in these peak demand periods bottoms out,
That bottom price is $54.28 Mwh - competitive prices always fluctuate, they are never fixed like in this graph.

525835

Interpretation: The only explanation that I can think of is that someone is deliberately manipulating the market. But why? And who?

Explanation: The electricity producer (Hydro Tasmania), the distributor (Transend) and the retailer (Aurora) are all owned by the Tasmanian government. It could be a device to secretly transfer funds from the producer to the distributor or retailer. But why?

AAnother explanation: Is there another plausible explanation? Have I overlooked the obvious?

Chris Parks

9th May 2023, 04:23 PM

Bushmiller

9th May 2023, 04:31 PM

The big problem with any move to use cars as a battery is the lead time it takes to design and build a car and then get it to market. All the V2 stuff now coming to market was started 5 years ago and any manufacturer who has not got the facility in a BEV is now 5 years away from supplying it. The other big thing is getting it from the car to the house, to make it a worthwhile proposition means some pretty hefty supply wiring has to be installed not some 20amp wire that would supply a high capacity GPO.

Chris

You are right with the supply wiring. However, up to 32a outlets are available in single phase with appropriate wiring and, of course, with three phase you can have whatever you want. It is a good point that this is all additional cost. However, it must be doable because it exists in other countries already.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

9th May 2023, 04:35 PM

Something weird is happening with electricity wholesale prices in Tasmania.

Graeme

I agree and I can't really explain it either. I feel that it revolves around the hydroelectric production that is still the main source in Tassie. However, something does not fit there. I will try to see what is happening when I am next in at work, although I won't be able to see much more than your charts with the exception of the DC connector.

Regards
Paul

Chris Parks

9th May 2023, 05:42 PM

Chris

You are right with the supply wiring. However, up to 32a outlets are available in single phase with appropriate wiring and, of course, with three phase you can have whatever you want. It is a good point that this is all additional cost. However, it must be doable because it exists in other countries already.

Regards
Paul

Of course it can be done but when thought about the whole V2H scenario has some real problems.

Is it cheaper to buy a car than a house battery?

Do I choose a car just because it has some form of V2H

Would a house hold battery and a cheaper car without V2H be a more flexible solution

You might say I remain unconvinced and you would be right. I see the advantages but there are a heap of conclusions being drawn by those who think it might be a good idea. A little less enthusiasm and a lot more facts would be a good idea.

Bushmiller

9th May 2023, 10:28 PM

Of course it can be done but when thought about the whole V2H scenario has some real problems.

Is it cheaper to buy a car than a house battery?

Do I choose a car just because it has some form of V2H

Would a house hold battery and a cheaper car without V2H be a more flexible solution

You might say I remain unconvinced and you would be right. I see the advantages but there are a heap of conclusions being drawn by those who think it might be a good idea. A little less enthusiasm and a lot more facts would be a good idea.

Chris

You make good points and it is very easy to get carried away with the glossy blurb, the spruiking and general hype. As always, the devil is in the detail and increasingly that is light on. Also we have to remember that individual situations can vary a great deal. This bi-directional charging is not going to be for everyone!

Regards
Paul

BobL

10th May 2023, 09:05 AM

Remember, cars are parked, usually at home, for most of their life. They are only driven for 2 or 3% of the time.

I agree that cars are only driven for a few % of the time and they are parked at home for most of their life.
However, what really matters is when an EV is parked at home during solar charging hours.
If someone goes to work at 7:30am and comes home at 5:30pm they will not get any significant EV-solar charging done so if the EV battery is used to power the home ON, by end of the week the EV battery could be flat.

Even a retiree like me, especially these days, often spends a fair bit of time away from the house during the day. Yesterday I went to a gardening centre in the morning and was away from 8:00am to 10am, Then at 11am I went to a hardware store, my sisters for lunch, to the physio, and then to fuel up the car car and got home at 4pm. All up I was driving for about 90 minutes (horrible city traffic) but was away from home for 7 hours during which time any EV would not have been charging. Last Saturday I drove to Fremantle to walk dogs with my brother, then the supermarket, and in the afternoon I went to a mates place, again about 90 minutes worth of driving but 6 hours away from home.

A smallish household battery would take care of all this and keeps things simple unfortunately it's unlikely to be economical for some time, but that is probably not going to stop me from eventually going this route.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 10:06 AM

A smallish household battery ... unlikely to be economical for some timeIf a 60kWh battery for Mr B's car is $15,000 to replace (so maybe an even smaller cost in the new car price) how much should a 3-5kWh battery for a home be? $5k or so, allowing for some different components being required? My only objection to having a house battery as well as a car battery is cost.

Re cars not being available to be charged during the day: I think that "charge while you shop" is a great marketing opportunity, and would be a pretty good way to top up or add to the car charge (one could pre-book a charging time online). The local Woolworths/Big W building here is about 170 x 60 metres, which could take a helluva lot of solar panels. That doesn't help people who are out and about all over the place, but even a 15 minute charge would be a pretty big help.

Our whole energy situation will be unrecognisable in about 5 years time.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 10:08 AM

I've never seen this addressed: what happens to a home solar system if it gets hit by lightning? We live in a high-strike area.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 10:14 AM

Can you show me where I can find the specs on V2H because I can't find them.
That is supposed to change when V2H comes in. There's a few things that need to line up, as this article explains:
Electric Vehicles - V2L, V2G, V2H ...? (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/electric-vehicles/v2l-v2g-v2h/)

I suppose an Atto 3 can be converted to V2H? It's not like you have to change the whole battery, I wouldn't think, just an interface?Chris, if you haven't looked at that page already, you may find it helpful. Not so much specs as an overview, but it spells out the fundamental differences.

BobL

10th May 2023, 10:56 AM

If a 60kWh battery for Mr B's car is $15,000 to replace (so maybe an even smaller cost in the new car price) how much should a 3-5kWh battery for a home be? $5k or so, allowing for some different components being required? My only objection to having a house battery as well as a car battery is cost.

Yep a few $k is all they should be and hopefully that will happen in time.

Re cars not being available to be charged during the day: I think that "charge while you shop" is a great marketing opportunity, and would be a pretty good way to top up or add to the car charge (one could pre-book a charging time online). The local Woolworths/Big W building here is about 170 x 60 metres, which could take a helluva lot of solar panels. That doesn't help people who are out and about all over the place, but even a 15 minute charge would be a pretty big help.

This works while EVs are just a few % of motor vehicles.
Solar panels for shopping centres makes a lot of sense to power the shopping centre itself but to power an EV in every parking spot is another level of power requirement.
Our big local shopping centre has 5000 Bays, even at just 5kWhr of charging per bay that is 25 MWhr of power, OK lets say only 1:10 are charging that is still 2.5MW, at 500 W/panel that's 5000 panels more than what the shopping centre itself will need.

I also doubt people would bother to hook up for anything less than a couple of hour for only 5kWhr charging. Might be different for 22kWhr or more but the the power/cost requirements will really blow things out of teh water.

FWIW I hate supermarkets and usually go early in the mornings eg 5-6am when there's few people around.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 11:13 AM

Yes, generally agreed Bob. I'm not suggesting that every parking spot is a charging spot though. Of course this whole landscape will change and develop over a decade and more, as tech changes and the % of EVs increases.

Chris Parks

10th May 2023, 11:33 AM

Chris, if you haven't looked at that page already, you may find it helpful. Not so much specs as an overview, but it spells out the fundamental differences.

Brett, I understand what it is, perhaps more than most but you made the statement that V2L had less capacity than V2H and I wondered where you got the figures from. The prime vehicle quoted for this V2* is the Ford Lightening and there have been several well documented uses of it being used to power houses to a limited extent in the US.

In the US it is common to have a whole of house generator usually gas powered and to facilitate its use there is automatic switching built into the installation just as described in the linked article so to plug in a V2H vehicle is not a big deal but try it here and very few houses have the needed equipment so the ability to automatically plug and forget is not easily done without that facility.

I don't know for sure why there is a low draw limit from the vehicle battery but I suspect it is because battery cooling is the issue. BEV's have quite complex battery cooling systems and if the vehicle is not being driven it might be difficult to cool the battery enough for a higher draw limit. 3600w drawn from the battery won't be 3600w delivered to the house due to losses in the delivery system and 3500w is two kettles heating water and not much else. The Atto starts at 3600w and drops to 2000w which is barely enough to heat one kettle.

If this V2H is to take off and my suspicion on cooling is on the mark raising the draw limit from the BEV will require an auxiliary plug in cooling system. The very high capacity chargers now entering the market for public use all have cooling systems built into the charging cables and it is this heating issue that is holding back even higher charging rates both in the charger and in the vehicle battery and is the same issue preventing higher loads being drawn from the vehicle in any V2* use if my assumption is correct.

I don't know how common LED lighting is these days but having it means there is a very low power draw in the house so that bodes well for using an auxiliary battery or even a house battery but some houses and mine is a prime example could not function on 3600w and I doubt I am Robinson Crusoe in that regard. Two freezers, lights, two fish ponds, appliances on standby, a large power hungry computer network, two smart TV's etc make for a large power draw. In the event of a blackout none of this stuff needs to be working but we are talking about driving a car into the car port in the evening and plugging it in to power the house at night every night and then you have to ask when is the BEV going to get charged because it is parked at work not plugged in to my solar system. Solar systems switch automatically from grid to panels and draw from both so yes the BEV will supply some power if the equipment is installed and the grid the remainder needed.

A lot of thinking is needed before the simple act of plugging in a car to a house and have no restrictions on use is the same as using a whole of house battery.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 12:40 PM

Chris, bear in mind that a large consumer of power might be told that V2H is not a total solution for them. I suspect that your power consumption is not typical (you are maybe 3x what we use), and perhaps you would need a house battery as well. I know you have detailed specs on your consumption, so maybe you can say what your maximum draw is in summer vs winter? I have just asked NCArcher what the typical maximum amperage feed is from the street to a house: "Older houses around 60A, newer are 80-100A location dependent". I guess that means that anyone who needs to draw anything above what the vehicle can put out will need to plug 2 vehicles into the system. :shrug: It's probably a fairly safe bet that any house drawing that much power probably has two vehicles, at least.

There's no universal panacea, and there will be a range of options needed (e.g. there are many many houses up here with no garage, and just the same in the inner cities)

Put this into Google: nissan leaf v2h specs
and it will tell you the output is 0-32A at peak power of 6kW (but that's only 200V)

Have a look at this site:
Bidirectional chargers explained - V2G vs V2H vs V2L — Clean Energy Reviews (https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/bidirectional-ev-charging-v2g-v2h-v2l)

It's an Aussie site, and they also have a forum (https://forum.cleanenergyreviews.info/), so you'll be able to ask all the questions there, I expect. They say they have no vested interest, don't sell solar equipment, and don't ask for a quote, but up the top it says "Get a quote", so I'm buggered if I know.

About 1/3 the way down it says that the new Ford F-150 has 4x 2.4kW outlets for V2L, so the batteries can obviously withstand a 9.6kW draw. I don't know how they arrange that, but perhaps they are drawing from four different sections of the vehicle's batteries.

The cooling of the car battery aspect had crossed my mind too. That is probably why V2H or V2G isn't as widely available yet because it would necessitate additional battery cooling being built into the car.

Scroll a little further down to Wallbox Quaser 2 which allows for 11.5kW at 48A (which is 240V) in either direction. Now the car battery has to also be capable of that, but they wouldn't be making a charger like that if it isn't possible now or in the very near future.

The other thing that might tell us what the battery can safely discharge is how much the car consumes. A Tesla S runs at 10kW at a speed of 110kph, which is obviously sustainable for a long time. The draw would be more (much more) under acceleration but that is only for short bursts so the battery isn't going to overheat. It's also at 350V, probably DC and a whole bunch of other things above my pay grade.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 12:57 PM

I don't know if battery heating is different for charging vs discharging, but if it can stand 7.4kW charge on single phase or 11kW charge on 3 phase (Volvo XC40 specs) then you'd have to think they could probably discharge at the same rate.

Anyway, a Tesla Powerwall can only discharge at 3.5kW as near as I can tell, so that's way under what vehicles can do. In other words, large sparks consumers would probably need 2-3 Powerwalls at $14k a pop....

Chris Parks

10th May 2023, 02:17 PM

The other thing that might tell us what the battery can safely discharge is how much the car consumes. A Tesla S runs at 10kW at a speed of 110kph, which is obviously sustainable for a long time. The draw would be more (much more) under acceleration but that is only for short bursts so the battery isn't going to overheat. It's also at 350V, probably DC and a whole bunch of other things above my pay grade.

Tesla BEV batteries need pre-heating before heavy discharge is possible as well as pre-heating before maximum charge rates are possible. I haven't read all the links and most probably won't as all the stuff I have read up to now here and elsewhere is speculation at best, 10 years ago Tesla was just firing up the world to the possibility of converting to BEV and just yesterday Tesla declared lithium batteries dead so any crystal balling into the future is just that, crystal balling. The V2* car fleet capable of all this speculation is decades away because lead times in the automotive industry takes at least 5 years and about that again to sell enough vehicles to make it a financial success.

I have not seen anyone admit the reality of how long it will take to achieve a car fleet big enough to have any measurable effect on saving energy in a house and that depends on charging the battery from green sources. Everyone needs to get real, take a deep breath and actually think about all this V2* stuff and while that is done I am outa here.

GraemeCook

10th May 2023, 02:40 PM

... Is it cheaper to buy a car than a house battery? ...

About the same, if measured in kilowatt hours capacity.

Effectively, the car is the free box in which the batteries are delivered.

FenceFurniture

10th May 2023, 02:44 PM

About the same, if measured in kilowatt hours capacity.

Effectively, the car is the free box in which the batteries are delivered.Or the house batteries are in the plastic box masquerading as a gold box...

GraemeCook

10th May 2023, 03:16 PM

... I have just asked NCArcher what the typical maximum amperage feed is from the street to a house: "Older houses around 60A, newer are 80-100A location dependent". ...

I asked a sparky the same question and got essentially the same answer.

Until 30 years ago, most street connections were 64 amp,
Now, most connections have been upgraded to 80 amps.

He also said that there was a lot of bureaucracy in getting a higher connection approved for a residence as you basically had to prove that it was required for non-commercial purposes.

woodPixel

10th May 2023, 10:54 PM

If you are of a mind to watch videos, this one is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38

" (https://youtu.be/_bDXXWQxK38)A New Way to Achieve Nuclear Fusion: Helion"

FenceFurniture

12th May 2023, 10:46 AM

Lithium to overtake fossil fuels as WA'''s second-most valuable resource, WA budget reveals - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-12/lithium-set-to-overtake-fossil-fuels-as-wa-budget-revenue-source/102335202)

Bushmiller

12th May 2023, 01:06 PM

One of the statements contributors to this thread have made is that we should not be blinkered in our approach to future power sources and indeed should seriously contemplate that future power generation will be a multi-pronged attack.

In looking up Fence Furniture's link on lithium in the previous post I stumbled on this one regarding Thorium reactors. It clearly is not solely utilising thorium but a combination that vastly reduces the use of uranium by a factor of forty to fifty times:

(7) Forget Fusion: We have Thorium for Unlimited Energy - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqYdPhv-T30)

Note where Australia is in the world reserves of thorium (about the 5.49 minute mark). However, there is a distinction between reserves and easily obtainable reserves.

I have long maintained a few advantages of thorium over uranium and plutonium. The following video debunks some of these (I am currently halfway through my second-best hat, which seems to be more palatable with BBQ sauce or soy sauce) and confirms others. The first 1.30 minutes seem to be a repeat of the video linked above, but then it diverges:

(7) The 5 Biggest Myths about Thorium - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKHEm6rbsAo)

I don't know if thorium can be used by itself. The videos above relate to a composite fuel. Perhaps the biggest issues with any forms of nuclear power generation are the cost and lead time for the build. Secondary are still the issues of safety, vulnerability during conflict (Zaporizhzhia is an example here), disposal of the waste (even if it is a smaller quantity) and de-commissioning costs at the end of a fifty year life cycle (they are huge with large sections not being recyclable).

It was also interesting to note that the renewables of solar and wind were projected to be significantly cheaper than a nuclear plant.

Regards
Paul

Chris Parks

12th May 2023, 02:39 PM

And just for a bit of balance the end of lithium batteries - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+end+of+lithium+batteries)

musk announces the end of the lithium battery - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=musk+announces+the+end+of+the+lithium+battery)

And some more out there speculation, everyone is getting into the act so maybe WA are counting chickens that aren't hatched yet.

BYD Sodium Battery - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=BYD+Sodium+Battery)

And that is only this week, god only knows what will be happening in ten year's time, maybe house batteries you can build yourself for all I know. I love BEV's and my son is a BYD service manager but all the speculation around them is just that and nothing more. Toyota, BMW and some machinery manufacturers are pushing hard for Hydrogen and they might yet be proven right for all anyone knows at this point in time.

FenceFurniture

12th May 2023, 02:42 PM

Tangential to our main discussion, but in the interests of energy efficiency, this is a fascinating 12 minute vid on toroidal propellers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzYHO4tksTc

FenceFurniture

12th May 2023, 02:55 PM

From the same guy, and back on topic, Salt Batteries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2hNNA4lvM

GraemeCook

12th May 2023, 04:09 PM

Tangential to our main discussion, but in the interests of energy efficiency, this is a fascinating 12 minute vid on toroidal propellers:
[Video titled : "105% Efficiency Boost"}

I was very suspicious when I saw the title of the video, so I went back to the source documentation. "Suspicious" is a polite word for the excretia of the species bovine. Or yet more of the Popular Science type crap.

Now, I have been playing around with boats for 70 years, and am well aware of developments of various propolsion - conventional props, duo props, surface piercing props, water jets - all are optimal within specific operating ranges. Toroidal props have been around for over 100 years, but have never made an impression. Allegedly they are significantly quieter than other props, not as efficient, hyper sensitive to alignment issues including minor dings, marine growth and slime, and extremely expensive to machine. Realistically, with more research effort, one would expect incremental improvements in efficiency, not a massive 105%.

So I went back to the MIT source - and MIT is a very credible university. Their summary:

Tests of prototype toroidal propellers on commercial quadcopters demonstrated thrust levels comparable to those of conventional propellers at similar power levels. Reduced sound levels allowed toroidal-propeller-equipped drones to operate without taxing human hearing at a distance half that of typical operation.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiU58qEgO_-AhXWTGwGHUt8BR4QFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ll.mit.edu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fother%2Fdoc%2F2022-09%2FTVO_Technology_Highlight_41_Toroidal_Propeller.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2WUl8i3iSsUCYHGDX9BGPX

Quieter.
Comparable power.
No mention of 105%. Very cautious tone.

FenceFurniture

12th May 2023, 06:28 PM

Oh well, at least they are quieter.

woodPixel

16th May 2023, 12:51 AM

Been away for a bit and it all became vigorous!

On the Salgenx - its all basically renders, a few engineering-looking schematics and not one single installation. Ive emailed "Greg" and its not investable.

BUT the ESS inc is investable. If you want a YOLO that will either crater or go ballistic, ESS looks great. They have an actual product that ships, with real customers and an actual plan. The things can scale up the wazoo as well. Thats good.

These remind me very strongly of the Iron-Flow Rusty batteries. I'm feeling very ... positive.. about those. :D

Big heavy brutes and totally useless for transport, but for mega-bulk storage they will win. They are fabulous solutions (oh, the puns!)

On the toroidal props for drones. They are SILENT. Not "quiet" or some other term, but silent. They could fly by your head and one would feel the breeze first.

I'll find the video. See this video Amazing Invention- This Drone Will Change Everything - YouTube (https://youtu.be/DOWDNBu9DkU?t=831) at the 13'50" section. It goes for about 2 minutes.

GraemeCook

16th May 2023, 11:05 AM

On the toroidal props for drones. They are SILENT. Not "quiet" or some other term, but silent. They could fly by your head and one would feel the breeze first.

Maybe someone else is doing better research than MIT, but the MIT report definitely said "Reduced sound levels allowed toroidal-propeller-equipped drones to operate without taxing human hearing at a distance half that of typical operation...." No mention or inference of silent or SILENT - (should one shout silently?)

havabeer69

16th May 2023, 10:11 PM

- (should one shout silently?)[/FONT]

My wife manages to do it when im trying to sleep after night shift and shes trying to tell the kids to "shut up your fathers sleeping"

Bushmiller

17th May 2023, 08:34 AM

My wife manages to do it when im trying to sleep after night shift and shes trying to tell the kids to "shut up your fathers sleeping"

My wife never quite mastered that technique. Fortunately, at some point the children left home and that was no longer an issue. :)

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

18th May 2023, 10:41 AM

I saw this for QLD:

I am sure that the media would make much of the maximum price yesterday ($14,930) , which is close to the maximum Voll (stands for "value of lost load"), which I think is $15,100, but note that the average price still remained similar to the previous days. I was not at work so I don't know what caused the price spike. Typically it would be a unit tripping at a time of high demand.

526047

The last entry is of course a projected figure for today.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

18th May 2023, 10:48 AM

The Tasmanian pricing remains a mystery:

You can see the live data here:

AEMO | NEM data dashboard (https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem)

This links to Tassie but you can click on any State. This is a quick snapshot outlining Graeme's comment a few posts earlier:

526048

Low prices at periods of high demand (0600 and 1800hrs) are the opposite of what we would expect. At this stage Tasmania has no pumped hydro, although feasibility studies are being conducted on 14 sites I read.

Regards
Paul

GraemeCook

18th May 2023, 01:08 PM

The Tasmanian pricing remains a mystery:

526054

...

Sure is a mystery, Paul. But whatever is happening, it has been incorporated into AEMO's price projection algorithm - see red arrow inserted into your graph. Someone or something is manipulating the market. The big questions are - who and why?

Bushmiller

18th May 2023, 10:02 PM

Graeme

I had seen the prediction. Even more weird! I am looking into it.

Regards
Paul

woodPixel

19th May 2023, 06:32 PM

Some interesting news today.

Photoelectrochemical CO2-to-fuel conversion with simultaneous plastic reforming | Nature Synthesis (https://www.nature.com/articles/s44160-022-00196-0)

Researchers have developed a solar-powered technology that converts carbon dioxide and water into liquid fuels that can be added directly to a car’s engine as drop-in fuel.

The researchers, from the University of Cambridge, harnessed the power of photosynthesis to convert CO2, water and sunlight into multicarbon fuels – ethanol and propanol – in a single step. These fuels have a high energy density and can be easily stored or transported.

Unlike fossil fuels, these solar fuels produce net zero carbon emissions and completely renewable, and unlike most bioethanol, they do not divert any agricultural land away from food production.

While the technology is still at laboratory scale, the researchers say their ‘artificial leaves’ are an important step in the transition away from a fossil fuel-based economy. The results are reported in the journal Nature Energy.

Bioethanol is touted as a cleaner alternative to petrol, since it is made from plants instead of fossil fuels. Most cars and trucks on the road today run on petrol containing up to 10% ethanol (E10 fuel). The United States is the world’s largest bioethanol producer: according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, almost 45% of all corn grown in the US is used for ethanol production.

“Biofuels like ethanol are a controversial technology, not least because they take up agricultural land that could be used to grow food instead,” said Professor Erwin Reisner, who led the research.

For several years, Reisner’s research group, based in the Yusuf Hamied Department of Chemistry, has been developing sustainable, zero-carbon fuels inspired by photosynthesis – the process by which plants convert sunlight into food – using artificial leaves.

To date, these artificial leaves have only been able to make simple chemicals, such as syngas, a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide that is used to produce fuels, pharmaceuticals, plastics and fertilisers. But to make the technology more practical, it would need to be able to produce more complex chemicals directly in a single solar-powered step.

Now, the artificial leaf can directly produce clean ethanol and propanol without the need for the intermediary step of producing syngas.

FenceFurniture

19th May 2023, 07:58 PM

Some interesting news today. Photoelectrochemical CO2-to-fuel conversion with simultaneous plastic reforming | Nature Synthesis (https://www.nature.com/articles/s44160-022-00196-0)That sounds pretty good.

One can also drink ethanol of course, provided it has been suitably diluted with juice of grape or Hop & Barley matter. Matter of fact, I'm consuming some right now. :;

I hear that the truly dedicated only drink it after filtering through a loaf of bread, and from a bottle wrapped in brown paper.

GraemeCook

24th May 2023, 02:43 PM

... One can also drink ethanol of course, provided it has been suitably diluted with juice of grape or Hop & Barley matter. Matter of fact, I'm consuming some right now. :; ...

??? You don't like vodka?

FenceFurniture

25th May 2023, 10:13 PM

??? You don't like vodka?Graeme, you are very welcome to filter your ethanol through a potato if you wish. :tequila:
I prefer the loaf of bread filter myself (strictly wholemeal of course)

GraemeCook

26th May 2023, 02:47 PM

Graeme, you are very welcome to filter your ethanol through a potato if you wish. :tequila: ...

I was thinking more in terms of extracting the ethanol from the potato, FF.

:tequila: :tequila: :tequila: :tequila:

:2tsup:

havabeer69

31st May 2023, 10:30 PM

well here's another one
Scientists Devise A Way To Harvest Energy Out Of Thin Air And It Changes Everything | HotHardware (https://hothardware.com/news/scientists-devise-way-to-harvest-energy-out-of-thin-air)

"The air contains an enormous amount of electricity," explained Jun Yao, assistant professor of electrical and computer engineering in the College of Engineering at UMass, and the paper's senior author. "Think of a cloud, which is nothing more than a mass of water droplets. Each of these droplets contains a charge, and when conditions are right, the cloud can produce a lightning bolt, but we don't know how to reliably capture electricity from lightning." He continued, "What we've done is to create a human-built, small-scale cloud that produces electricity for us predictably and continuously so that we can harvest it."

some of the quotes are from a graduate student so I guess take it with a grain of salt.

Bushmiller

1st June 2023, 10:13 AM

HAB

Harvesting lightning bolts etc. seems a little ambitious, but it does bring to mind some phrases from my early NSW power station days. I am sure you will be familiar with, but for those outside the industry, but nevertheless very interested:

"One flash and you're ash."

"One zap and you're crap."

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

23rd June 2023, 06:46 PM

A little bit small (euphemism) but interesting:

Australia's first commercial vanadium-flow battery storage completed in South Australia (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/australia-s-first-commercial-vanadium-flow-battery-storage-completed-in-south-australia/ar-AA1cUXbd?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=518087c07c0c4f7280cc3d8c24b75ee2&ei=11)

It appears to have some benefits over Lithium-Ion including recycling, longevity and inflammability. It is however unsuitable for mobile applications.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

23rd June 2023, 07:27 PM

Not a glowing report this one:

GOT GAS? Putting the pin into that Victorian coal to hydrogen plan (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/got-gas-putting-the-pin-into-that-victorian-coal-to-hydrogen-plan/ar-AA1cTKqD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e897126a79e841e5a4ccbe3f896f36cc&ei=47)

Unless renewable energy is used to create the carbon capture, more CO2 enters the atmosphere from the process and it would be better to just generate power from the gas (or coal) itself. This is quite apart from the issue should the CO2 not remain captured! There are projects around to prove CCS can be done, but clearly the integrity of the CCS is lacking for the moment.

Regards
Paul

woodPixel

29th June 2023, 05:02 PM

China is really getting into it: China on course to hit wind and solar power target five years ahead of time | China | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/29/china-wind-solar-power-global-renewable-energy-leader)

Imagine what we could do....

527874

Bushmiller

1st July 2023, 08:52 AM

One of the big complaints of batteries is regarding the waste at the end of their life. I have previously in BobL's EV thread (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f116/personal-ev-journey-255857), mentioned how far ahead Norway is of the rest of the world. It would appear from this article that these dead batteries are not the final destination after all:

Norway's quest for 'black gold' from used car batteries (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/norway-s-quest-for-black-gold-from-used-car-batteries/ar-AA1deJTQ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4061b18574b24d1eab02b159bb67d477&ei=48)

Regards
Paul

Chris Parks

1st July 2023, 01:20 PM

Norway have the economies of scale to introduce recycling but until counties reach a similar level level of BEV use other ways are most probably the best approach such as re-use of batteries not good enough for cars and apparently using them as grid storage is a good approach. The installation can be made larger as more batteries become available but eventually of course even those need to be recycled and that will happen as the need grows due to more cars on the road.

Australia most probably has not enough used batteries or so you would think but Toyota along with Nissan have been replacing batteries in cars for the best part of a decade and I wonder where all those have disappeared to. I mentioned in a post to Bob's thread that I was aware of a BYD with less than a 1000km on it being written off and I doubt that there is any sort of formal structure in Oz to deal with cars such as that so that the battery is recovered.

The big reuse: 25 MWh of ex-car batteries go on the grid in California | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/the-big-reuse-25-mwh-of-ex-car-batteries-go-on-the-grid-in-california/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqlOlqK_ot8&ab_channel=CanaryMedia

GraemeCook

1st July 2023, 06:11 PM

One of the big complaints of batteries is regarding the waste at the end of their life. ...

Thanks, Paul

When looking at electrical vehicles we have to be careful not to lose track of how profound the revolution will be. When IC cars became available 120 years ago, we essentially cloded a serie of industries - buggy whip makers, chaff producers, wheelwrights, stage coaches, etc - and replaced them with a series of new industries - car makers, repairers, servicers, fuel, etc. Not better, not worse, just different. (Remember, cars were greeted as non-poluting as they did not on the roads like horses!) Perspectives change.

But that Norwegian plant is a good start, but it is still only a pilot plant. "The Fredrikstad plant is a pilot project ... " Your reference. We still need the refineries to convert the "black gold" into the recoverable metals, and at an economic price. It takes time to create a new industry, and there will be false steps.

Bushmiller

1st July 2023, 08:52 PM

But that Norwegian plant is a good start, but it is still only a pilot plant. "The Fredrikstad plant is a pilot project ... " Your reference.

Graeme

That is a very good point. Also, pilot plants are sometimes built to prove that the technology is feasible: Not necessarily to prove they are economically viable!

Regards
Paul

Warb

3rd July 2023, 10:50 PM

At a time when the cost of electricity is rising by 20% or so (in NSW), I am intrigued by a conversation I had with a PV installer just a couple of weeks ago.

In addition to designing and installing PV, he is/was also involved with teaching PV and "eco energy" stuff to TAFE and high school students. He told me about a time he took a bunch of students on a tour of a local wind farm, and on an amply windy day the students noted that many of the turbines weren't generating any significant power. Whilst in the control room, one of the students asked a worker why this was the case. The worker answered that the price of power was low, so they had reduced their output "until the price goes back up". The student was bright enough to realise that given the wind is "free", this was a case of deliberately creating (or helping to create) a shortage in order to drive prices up. Apparently the faces of the students, many of whom were very keen on "saving the planet", dropped on the spot, and he could almost hear their beliefs in the publicised drivers for "green energy" come crashing down......

doug3030

3rd July 2023, 11:22 PM

At a time when the cost of electricity is rising by 20% or so (in NSW), I am intrigued by a conversation I had with a PV installer just a couple of weeks ago.

Speaking of electricity prices going up, I just snipped this little table out of the notification I just received in an Email from my provider:

528014

That's as close to a 50% increase that it makes little difference. Then there will be gas increase on top of that.

Bushmiller

4th July 2023, 08:58 AM

Doug

The wholesale price of electricity has increased a lot. I just looked up the average price for the year so far and it translates to 11.5 cents per KWhr. That is for QLD, but the other states will be in a similar ballpark. I am not surprised electricity bills are destined to increase. I am led to believe that some are even worse than your 50%. However, none of that makes the increase any easier to bear.

Those of us that have solar panels on the roof will be wondering why we are only getting paid miniscule amounts for feeding surplus power into the grid. I am not in that position so I don't know the figures, but I hear stories of 5c and less. Perhaps somebody can verify that for me.

If that is the case, it is probably time to consider a storage battery to supplement the solar panels. Put all the surplus power into the battery and use that at night. Night time wholesale prices, because they include both the morning and evening peaks, probably average 15c to 20c. By the time the power gets to the consumer the KWhr rate could be 40c. I don't know exactly what these prices are as I am only outlining a principle. I am pointing out that the nature of power generation has turned completely on its electrical head. Go back a few years and power was cheap at nightand expensive during the day. In the current climate it is the complete opposite.

Regards
Paul

Warb

4th July 2023, 09:38 AM

The wholesale price of electricity has increased a lot. I just looked up the average price for the year so far and it translates to 11.5 cents per KWhr. That is for QLD, but the other states will be in a similar ballpark. I am not surprised electricity bills are destined to increase. I am led to believe that some are even worse than your 50%. However, none of that makes the increase any easier to bear.

Those of us that have solar panels on the roof will be wondering why we are only getting paid miniscule amounts for feeding surplus power into the grid. I am not in that position so I don't know the figures, but I hear stories of 5c and less. Perhaps somebody can verify that for me.

If that is the case, it is probably time to consider a storage battery to supplement the solar panels. Put all the surplus power into the battery and use that at night. Night time wholesale prices, because they include both the morning and evening peaks, probably average 15c to 20c. By the time the power gets to the consumer the KWhr rate could be 40c. I don't know exactly what these prices are as I am only outlining a principle. I am pointing out that the nature of power generation has turned completely on its electrical head. Go back a few years and power was cheap at nightand expensive during the day. In the current climate it is the complete opposite.

The wholesale price of electricity has indeed increased, but if my PV installers story is true (and I have no reason to doubt him) then this is at least partially down to manipulation of supply and demand. It is my understanding that coal fired power stations are unable to rapidly vary their outputs, which is why in the old environment we had coal fired "base load" generation, with gas fired generators able to quickly ramp up and down to service shortfalls or oversupply. If the new generators, solar and wind, can switch on and off at will, and without cost to themselves (no wasted fuel!) then surely we must expect them (if un-monitored and unregulated) to deliberately create shortfalls in order to increase the price? Their profit will be higher if they ensure that prices are high!!

PV feed in payment for domestic systems is indeed very low. Before I retired last year, my farm had about 40kW of solar to run irrigation pumps, but which fed the grid when the pumps were off (most of the time for the last few years!). We got 6c/kWh, much of which the power companies clawed back through huge rises in the daily charge.

My new property has 5kW of grid interactive PV, and I'm adding a further 20kW on my new shed. Sadly it has only a tiny single phase transformer, so I'm limited to a 4kW feed to the grid. As a result, I'm also installing a 9.6kWh battery. I very much doubt that the feed-in tariff will cover the daily charge, but the system should hopefully provide the majority of my power, though not the induction cooktop in the winter!

Chris Parks

4th July 2023, 09:59 AM

Warb

4th July 2023, 10:23 AM

Batteries present a bit of a conundrum for those of us who have a limited time in their home because of age and won't see the investment in batteries pay off and they are the people who really need them to lower the electricity costs. The other factor for the retirees is that they are home during the day and use more electricity warming and cooling their homes.

I'm not sure, given the cost of batteries, that they will pay off their investment for anyone. A (admittedly somewhat biased) study in the US suggested that the pay-off time for a Tesla battery was somewhere near 40 years, and Tesla only warranty their Powerwall 2 batteries (70% of initial rating) for 10 years. Tesla argued with the study, but if I remember correctly they could still only get the payoff time down to 20 something years... if the battery lasts that long!

In any case, the power companies are trying to recoup their "losses" to domestic PV by hiking up the daily charges. A while back there was a call to specifically increase the daily charge to those with PV, and whilst I believe that call was dropped it is only a matter of time, I suspect! The daily charge for everyone is increasing constantly, although apart from an enormous growth in "fat" (it now takes 6 vehicles, 12 men and several visits to achieve what two guys in a ute took 10 minutes to do 15 years ago) I can't really see why.....

havabeer69

4th July 2023, 01:28 PM

My new property has 5kW of grid interactive PV, and I'm adding a further 20kW on my new shed. Sadly it has only a tiny single phase transformer, so I'm limited to a 4kW feed to the grid. As a result, I'm also installing a 9.6kWh battery. I very much doubt that the feed-in tariff will cover the daily charge, but the system should hopefully provide the majority of my power, though not the induction cooktop in the winter!

its not the feed in tariff that should save you money... its the fact you shouldn't have an electricity bill at all.

if you take doug3030's example above
if you can wipe off a $2000 electricity bill a year and a battery + panel setup is something like $15000, that's 7 years for it to pay off (assuming power prices don't increase in that time again which means its even cheap) and the rest is cream.

Warb

4th July 2023, 02:19 PM

its not the feed in tariff that should save you money... its the fact you shouldn't have an electricity bill at all.

Sadly that isn't the case. The standing charge is about $2 per day, so at 5c/kWh for solar feed-in you need to feed in 40kWh just to cover the daily charge. With a feed in limit of 4kW, that's 10 hours of 4kW each and every day, which may be "easy" on a bright summer day, but not so much in the winter. The PV enthusiasts (and don't get me wrong, I'm one of them) will tell you that even in winter the PV system generates lots of power. That's true, except that most of that power is around mid-day, which doesn't help if you need 10 hours! The drop off in production caused by shortened hours of daylight is very real, and "lots at lunchtime" is no help if you can only feed 4kW. Equally, even for self-consumption, having lots of power at lunchtime doesn't help cook the dinner when it goes dark!

So you get a battery. At this point the cost of the installation goes up massively. A Powerwall (no panels or inverter) costs over $15k installed (estimates vary up to $17k). That allows you to shunt power to later in the day when the light starts to fade, but with limitations. Apart from the obvious (13kWh limit), the maximum continuous output is 5kW. Having ditched the gas hob, you realise that an induction hob uses 2 to 4kW per ring/zone. So when you boil a pan of water for pasta and fry some onions for sauce, the battery can't keep up and you're using power from the grid. Then put the kettle on (2kW?) and your meter is spinning wildly. Your limited 4kW feed-in is hardly covering the daily charge, so your bill is now increasing further. You still haven't any heating, or general "through the night" usage. The result is that in winter you still will have a bill, possibly quite substantial, unless you have sufficient panels and batteries to cover 100% of your usage and also guarantee that 10 hours of 4kW feed to cover your daily charge (which is absolutely certain to increase with time!).

Now of course this doesn't apply to everyone. My previous property had two large 3 phase transformers, one with a 10kw (the standard at the time) feed in limit, and the other with quite possibly no limit at all (the transformer was huge, and I was the only connection). We could feed so much during the day that all our charges (usage and standing) were covered. But not anymore, without a vast array and several batteries.

The fact is that you need to do a lot of homework to make sure you know what you will get! I have people local to me who were told "you won't have a bill" and in fact their bill is not that much less than before installing PV, entirely due to usage patterns and low feed-in tariffs. And that's before rainy days like today when the panels do nothing......

havabeer69

4th July 2023, 03:13 PM

doesn't the inverter use the solar first and export the rest?

so if you have a 20Kw system, and you're using 15Kw during the day doing the laundry etc etc, aren't you only exporting 5Kw? so you only earn feed tariff in on the 5Kw but you're not drawing in any power off the grid because its being provided by the first 15Kw from your panels? so your net bill is 0kw + 5kw of export?

GraemeCook

4th July 2023, 03:23 PM

I'm not sure, given the cost of batteries, that they will pay off their investment for anyone. .....

Correct. I have dual qualifications in economics and accountancy and a lot of experience doing fairly sophisticated cost-benefit analyses.

Two friends installed Tesla Powerwalls last calendar year and I reviewed their cost effectiveness early this year, based on the following parameters:

Installed costs of Powerwall - $13,200 and $13,400.
Storage capacity - 13.1 kWh (as per warranty).
Capacity after 10 years - 9.2 kWh (70%).
Electricity cost - 26 cents per kWh.
Zero maintenance costs and zero downtime.

Very Rosy Glasses - Pay back period = 15 years. Assumes that the solar panels charge the batteries to 100% each and every day and that you use 100% of that power each and every night. Totally unrealistic - cloudy days, days when you do not use the aircon, etc, and when you are away on holidays.

Rosy Glasses - PBP = 20 years. Assume that the solar averages an 80% charge each day and that you use 80% of of available capacity on average each day. [A little less unrealistic]

Realistic - PBP = 30 years. Allows uniform depreciation in capacity to 70% after 10 years and continuing decline.

Real World - PBP = 40 years. Includes cost of finance. The opportunity cost of the money invested in the Powerwall - it could have been invested elsewhere.

Solar Costs - The study assumed that the cost of solar electricity was zero - totally unrealistic as there are capital costs and maintenance costs.

Electricity Price Rises - The study was done without considering future electricity price rises. If the price doubles from 26 cents used to 52 cents per kWh then the above PBP's would be effectively halved. In my real world scenario the PBP would be 20 years. Will a powerwall or me last 20 years? How many batteries are 20 years old?

Going Off Grid - I am a low electricity user averaging 11 kWh per day, but I suspect that I use 20 kWh on a high use day. Clearly the 13.1 kWh capacity is insufficient for me for one day - two needed. But we might have prolonged cloudy days so I would need more capacity - six Powerwalls for three days capacity? One of my friends above averages 21 kWh per day. If he has high use days around 40 kWh does he need 10 or 12 powerwalls? We really did not have adequate data to address those ussues, except we could see $$$$$'s.

Chris Parks

4th July 2023, 03:31 PM

Here is some data to show why batteries will not be charged from my 7.5kw system during two less than ideal days during winter. This same system outputs between 42kw & 45kw on a good summer day. I doubt many houses in suburbia would have any more than 10kw on the roof and most are smaller than mine being 6.5kw as a rule. Our FIT is 6 cents and there is no way I would put more panels on the roof (which I can't) to export for them to sell it back to me during the night at 30 cents+ and I would have to put a lot on to power batteries anyway.

If you enlarge the shot and then double click on it you will see the data panel on its own without the edge motif on the right. Somehow my second monitor gets included in a screen grab for some reason.

Today so far
528057

Yesterday

528058

Warb

4th July 2023, 06:31 PM

doesn't the inverter use the solar first and export the rest?

Yes

so if you have a 20Kw system, and you're using 15Kw during the day doing the laundry etc etc, aren't you only exporting 5Kw? so you only earn feed tariff in on the 5Kw but you're not drawing in any power off the grid because its being provided by the first 15Kw from your panels?

Yes, sort of.

so your net bill is 0kw + 5kw of export?

No

1/ Forgive me if you know this. A kW is a unit of power, but describe the rate of energy flow. A kWh is a unit of power that has been used, so 1 kW for 1 hour is 1kWh. For a PV system to supply all your power it must be able to produce the same amount of power (kW) as you are using at any and all times. Any shortfall is drawn from the grid. The shortfall that was drawn from the grid cannot be directly "made up" by PV, only by selling enough power (feed-in) to pay the purchase price of that power drawn from the grid....... and they charge 6 or more times what they pay you! So when the sun goes behind a cloud you pay 500% interest on the power they "loan" to you, even if that "loan" only lasts a minute.

2/ PV Panels are specified for an output under a given amount of sunlight (energy) hitting them. In Australia, on a good day in summer at mid-day (from a solar point of view), we have more than the specified amount of sunlight. But that only lasts for a limited time either side of mid-day. Before and after that, there is a curve of increasing light through the morning and then decreasing through the afternoon. So 20kW of panels will produce nothing before sunrise, then increase to potentially more than 20kW at mid-day, then decrease back to nothing at sunset. To make things worse, domestic panels tend to be fixed, rather than on frames that "follow the sun". This means that they are either stuck on the roof at whatever angle and direction that happens to be facing, or adjusted to give a "best average throughout the year" result. They then gather dust, and often their output decays far quicker than the manufacturers would like us to believe. This means that the 20kW of panels, through the days and years, will only occasionally actually output 20kW. Because panels are "cheap", the solution is to install an inverter of, say, 10kW, and connect it to, say, 14kW of panels. The inverter limits the output at "best sunlight" times to 10kW, but at other times the under-performing panels can still yield 40% more than 10kW of panels. So output varies, and if you put your tumble dryer on at the wrong time, or get some clouds, then you're using power from the grid. So you have a bill.

3/ You still have a standing charge, which means you have to generate enough surplus to cover it, or you get a bill. How difficult this is depends on many things, but if (like me) the electricity company limits the amount of power you can feed in, it can become impossible even with a large PV system. So you have a bill.

4/ Without a battery, you can only use your "free" solar power when the sun is shining. As described in 2/ above, this means that in the early morning and the evening, or from mid-afternoon in winter, you struggle to produce significant power. Heating, cooking, watching TV etc. are all frequently done in those "low/no solar" times of the day. So you have a bill. Now if you have a big PV system that can export large amounts of power through the day, you'd think that would offset the grid usage. But remember that you get paid 5c for each kWh you supply to the grid, but they charge you 30c (or whatever) to buy it back - so you have to "sell" 6 times as much as you buy just to break even. So every dull day, or cloud in front of the sun, puts you further behind. And you have a bill.

5/ There are limit on how much power you can feed to the grid. For most people it used to be 10kW. For people on small transformers or long rural lines (like me!) it may be as low as 4kW. Apparently they do sometimes simply not allow any feed-in. Trying to sell 6 times as much as you use, when limited to 4kW feed-in, is very hard!

Chris Parks

4th July 2023, 08:15 PM

Yes

Yes, sort of.

No

1/ Forgive me if you know this. A kW is a unit of power, but describe the rate of energy flow. A kWh is a unit of power that has been used, so 1 kW for 1 hour is 1kWh. For a PV system to supply all your power it must be able to produce the same amount of power (kW) as you are using at any and all times. Any shortfall is drawn from the grid. The shortfall that was drawn from the grid cannot be directly "made up" by PV, only by selling enough power (feed-in) to pay the purchase price of that power drawn from the grid....... and they charge 6 or more times what they pay you! So when the sun goes behind a cloud you pay 500% interest on the power they "loan" to you, even if that "loan" only lasts a minute.

2/ PV Panels are specified for an output under a given amount of sunlight (energy) hitting them. In Australia, on a good day in summer at mid-day (from a solar point of view), we have more than the specified amount of sunlight. But that only lasts for a limited time either side of mid-day. Before and after that, there is a curve of increasing light through the morning and then decreasing through the afternoon. So 20kW of panels will produce nothing before sunrise, then increase to potentially more than 20kW at mid-day, then decrease back to nothing at sunset. To make things worse, domestic panels tend to be fixed, rather than on frames that "follow the sun". This means that they are either stuck on the roof at whatever angle and direction that happens to be facing, or adjusted to give a "best average throughout the year" result. They then gather dust, and often their output decays far quicker than the manufacturers would like us to believe. This means that the 20kW of panels, through the days and years, will only occasionally actually output 20kW. Because panels are "cheap", the solution is to install an inverter of, say, 10kW, and connect it to, say, 14kW of panels. The inverter limits the output at "best sunlight" times to 10kW, but at other times the under-performing panels can still yield 40% more than 10kW of panels. So output varies, and if you put your tumble dryer on at the wrong time, or get some clouds, then you're using power from the grid. So you have a bill.

3/ You still have a standing charge, which means you have to generate enough surplus to cover it, or you get a bill. How difficult this is depends on many things, but if (like me) the electricity company limits the amount of power you can feed in, it can become impossible even with a large PV system. So you have a bill.

4/ Without a battery, you can only use your "free" solar power when the sun is shining. As described in 2/ above, this means that in the early morning and the evening, or from mid-afternoon in winter, you struggle to produce significant power. Heating, cooking, watching TV etc. are all frequently done in those "low/no solar" times of the day. So you have a bill. Now if you have a big PV system that can export large amounts of power through the day, you'd think that would offset the grid usage. But remember that you get paid 5c for each kWh you supply to the grid, but they charge you 30c (or whatever) to buy it back - so you have to "sell" 6 times as much as you buy just to break even. So every dull day, or cloud in front of the sun, puts you further behind. And you have a bill.

5/ There are limit on how much power you can feed to the grid. For most people it used to be 10kW. For people on small transformers or long rural lines (like me!) it may be as low as 4kW. Apparently they do sometimes simply not allow any feed-in. Trying to sell 6 times as much as you use, when limited to 4kW feed-in, is very hard!

Yep, what he said. Why would I want to spend money so the electricity grid can sell it back to me at stupid prices. What I think should happen and I know this is dreamland stuff is that there should be a community battery which relies on local solar and only buys from the grid as needed. The local solar generation is kept "in house" at an agreed price until it becomes necessary to buy from the grid. My town would be a prime example of where this sort of scheme would work. How pricing would work I would have no idea but I suspect a smart meter could be utilised.

The scheme in this link won't fly during winter because the communities are shaded for the greater part of the day by the local escarpment Electrify 2515 plan to adopt renewable energy, EV car lease in Illawarra suburb - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-03/plans-to-electrify-illawarra-postcode-2515-renewable-energy/101294916)

havabeer69

4th July 2023, 08:31 PM

1/ Forgive me if you know this. A kW is a unit of power, but describe the rate of energy flow. A kWh is a unit of power that has been used, so 1 kW for 1 hour is 1kWh. For a PV system to supply all your power it must be able to produce the same amount of power (kW) as you are using at any and all times. Any shortfall is drawn from the grid. The shortfall that was drawn from the grid cannot be directly "made up" by PV, only by selling enough power (feed-in) to pay the purchase price of that power drawn from the grid....... and they charge 6 or more times what they pay you! So when the sun goes behind a cloud you pay 500% interest on the power they "loan" to you, even if that "loan" only lasts a minute.

2/ PV Panels are specified for an output under a given amount of sunlight (energy) hitting them. In Australia, on a good day in summer at mid-day (from a solar point of view), we have more than the specified amount of sunlight. But that only lasts for a limited time either side of mid-day. Before and after that, there is a curve of increasing light through the morning and then decreasing through the afternoon. So 20kW of panels will produce nothing before sunrise, then increase to potentially more than 20kW at mid-day, then decrease back to nothing at sunset. To make things worse, domestic panels tend to be fixed, rather than on frames that "follow the sun". This means that they are either stuck on the roof at whatever angle and direction that happens to be facing, or adjusted to give a "best average throughout the year" result. They then gather dust, and often their output decays far quicker than the manufacturers would like us to believe. This means that the 20kW of panels, through the days and years, will only occasionally actually output 20kW. Because panels are "cheap", the solution is to install an inverter of, say, 10kW, and connect it to, say, 14kW of panels. The inverter limits the output at "best sunlight" times to 10kW, but at other times the under-performing panels can still yield 40% more than 10kW of panels. So output varies, and if you put your tumble dryer on at the wrong time, or get some clouds, then you're using power from the grid. So you have a bill.

3/ You still have a standing charge, which means you have to generate enough surplus to cover it, or you get a bill. How difficult this is depends on many things, but if (like me) the electricity company limits the amount of power you can feed in, it can become impossible even with a large PV system. So you have a bill.

4/ Without a battery, you can only use your "free" solar power when the sun is shining. As described in 2/ above, this means that in the early morning and the evening, or from mid-afternoon in winter, you struggle to produce significant power. Heating, cooking, watching TV etc. are all frequently done in those "low/no solar" times of the day. So you have a bill. Now if you have a big PV system that can export large amounts of power through the day, you'd think that would offset the grid usage. But remember that you get paid 5c for each kWh you supply to the grid, but they charge you 30c (or whatever) to buy it back - so you have to "sell" 6 times as much as you buy just to break even. So every dull day, or cloud in front of the sun, puts you further behind. And you have a bill.

5/ There are limit on how much power you can feed to the grid. For most people it used to be 10kW. For people on small transformers or long rural lines (like me!) it may be as low as 4kW. Apparently they do sometimes simply not allow any feed-in. Trying to sell 6 times as much as you use, when limited to 4kW feed-in, is very hard!

all good, did know a decent chunk of what you're saying. didn't really stop to think that you'd need to be making at least $1 a day worth of solar to cover your supply charge, which as you said comes down to your usage habbits and how much you can export.