Why oil French Polishing pad?

[Dengue]

Hello, I am new to "shellacking", having attempted without success many years ago, and gave it away as a bad joke.

This time, rather than using a brush, I have made a wad out of flannelette, folded in about 4 layers and made about 3" x 3". I covered this with a thin cotton /polyester material from an old bed sheet, gives a nice smooth thin smear of shellac. I am using 50/50 mix of Ubeaut White Hard shellac and metho

I have put 4 or 5 coats of shellac on a box, and I now find that when I fill the cotton pad and rub it along applying the next coat, it tends to be sticky and not flow smoothly.

Can anyone please advise why this is so? Is it time to make a new pad?

I think one possible solution is to add a couple of drops of paraffin oil. Can this be added to the underside of the pad, or must I open the pad cloth and put drops of oil on the top of the cotton wadding? Or do I put a couple of drops on the workpiece surface?

Hope some finishing experts can help

[homey]

Hello Joe,

Greetings from newly-released Melbourne!

The shellac gets sticky as the surface builds up on the project, particularly if you don’t keep the rubber moving, or have too much shellac in your pad or you keep polishing for too long in one session. That’s a bit simplistic but best I can do in a short answer :)

To provide lubrication I use baby oil/ mineral oil. My rubbers are small as I’m only finishing boxes, but it’s important not to use too much or it all becomes a smeary mess. I put a drop of oil on my thumb then lightly rub it across the surface of the rubber. When the pad starts to drag it’s time to repeat the process.

The oil is just a lubricant so it should go on the outside of the pad not inside. Towards the end of the polishing process (spiriting off) you are using progressively reducing the ratio of shellac you add to the pad and increasing the proportion of methylated spirits (alcohol for our friends in North America). You will be removing the oil that you’ve used on the surface so the less you use on the way through the better - just enough to keep the pad moving freely.

For the cover of the rubber I use well worn linen or cotton - I think they transfer the shellac better than anything with polyester or similar in it.

Avoid polishing when it is very humid, Joe, or you may well find your finish developing a white blush after it dries (moisture trapped).

A good practical YouTube demo French Polishing with Mitch Kohanek - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ParX4-dOf1s&app=desktop) The CCs are not bad.

Hope all is well with you.

Best regards,

Brian

[SingwithFishes]

There's also an excellent youtube video by Clickspring showing the french polishing process at Spare Parts #14 - French Polishing A Piece Of Red Morrel Burl - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vFXsJNO3qsI) . He uses olive oil as a lubricant.
Good luck!

[Dengue]

Hi Brian, many thanks for this informative and very helpful post. It answered all my questions.

Can we take it to the next steps, right up to the final coat?

so far I have been only using the one rubber and the one mix of 50/50 Ubeaut White Hard shellac and metho (industrial alcohol)

Q1. How do you get rid of the runs that occur on the corners? I seem to get good coverage except for one or two runs on the edges of the box.
Q2. Do I stay with the existing shellac mix?
Q3. How do I get the final finish coat nice and shiny and smooth?
Q4. What other steps have I missed ?

Don't envy you in Melbourne. I have a son and daughter in Altona, and they are stir crazy. Just 12 months ago he finished a 3 year around Australia 4WD tour, so you can imagine just how itchy his feet are. He has been rebuilding his Troopy in readiness for the next trip to the top of Cape York, but has not been allowed take it out on the road to test at each stage of the rebuild.

Did you get much woodwork done during your confinement, Brian? I haven't done much this year due to back problems incurred on an exercise bike, of all things, off to a neurosurgeon next Feb to find out what is going on, but will definitely not be doing surgery. Just have to stay with the walking stick. Beginning to hate this ageing process

Off to watch the YouTube link you provided. Thanks for that

[homey]

Hi Joe,

I guess most finishes have a bit of a learning curve - I certainly had my moments with shellac! I spent a lot of time reading up, watching local polishers and finally spent a few days with Andrew Crawford getting his tuition - most of his own boxes have been finished with shellac.

Leaving aside pore filling with pumice (the traditional way to get a smooth suface to begin with) I use the same mix as you - 50/50 U-Beaut Hard Shellac and methylated spirits. I use industrial methylated spirits now as there can be quite a bit of water in some hardware store meths. The SDS for Diggers brand says it contains <5% demineralized water but all meths absorbs moisture over time so I decant into a small plastic squeeze bottle from the chemist, then seal up the main container.

As you know, each application of shellac blends into the existing finish so there are no layers as such. I just start moving across the surface in circles, figures of eight and straight lines, adding shellac to the rubber when it seems dry, and a very little oil on the outside to keep things moving smoothly.

Once I’m happy with the session I leave it overnight before keeping going. This is because shellac ‘sinks’ a bit as it dries so what looks like a lovely surface tonight may look less pleasing in the morning. A very light denib (I use a grey Scotchbrite pad as it does not clog as much as sandpaper). Then keep going until you feel the surface looks pretty good even after a day or so drying.

At this point, when charging the rubber, just use meths (alcohol) in the back of the rubber - no shellac. There is already shellac in the rubber, so as you proceed the concentration of shellac reduces constantly. At this point you are almost just burnishing the finish and picking up any remaining oil. The rubber should be almost dry towards the end.

I let the Hard Shellac dry and cross-link for around 3 weeks before either buffing lightly with a polishing compound for a high gloss or very gently rubbing along the grain with 0000 steel wool and paste wax. My preference is actually Rustins 0000+ Steel wool which is even finer than some 0000 products.

If you have runs your rubber is definitely too wet. After I charge the rubber with shellac I press it on a piece of clean white paper - if the paper looks shiny wet keep pressing on different parts of the paper until the rubber is just damp. Existing runs I’d either smooth out using a damp meths rag or sand gently. Remember that any new shellac put over the top will blend into the existing layer so you won’t get witness lines as you would with, say, polyurethane.

Hope this helps, Joe. With luck one of the forum’s professionals will be along to give a more experienced view.

Best regards,

Brian

[ubeaut]

Brian pretty much said it all and very well too.

Traditional method of oiling was done with linseed oil. But I find Paraffin Oil to be much better. For our Hard Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) I recommend our FoodSafe Plus (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/FS+.htm) oil which is 100% pure, heavy grade,
medical/pharmaceutical paraffin oil. The beauty of that one is in its' purity, the benefits are much better than using linseed or most other oils in that it is a non drying oil meaning that you can walk away from the job and come back in a weeks time and pickup where you left off unlike paraffin and most others where the oil would have skinned on the surface unless removed before leaving.

Another benefit of the FoodSafe Plus is that it gets trapped in the matrix of the shellac as it's being polished bringing out a much more vibrant and deep looking finish. This will not effect the final finish. Also the FoodSafe is easier to spirit off when you're finished.

Beware of baby Oils as they can often have adulterants in them like a perfume of colourant which could cause a problem down the track with possible crazing, cracking or even delamination. I've seen the full delamination of a French Polished coffee table top which was put down to using baby oil as lubricant.

Methylated Spirits, Metholated Spirits, Meths, Metho, Ethanol, Denatured Alcohol:
All the above are the same just different names


Beware of buying the cheap supermarket meths.
It can have up to 40+% of water added to it.
To be called meths it has to be OP (over Proof) meaning it has be able to burn and it will at a bit over 50% alcohol.
It is OK for cleaning windows, etc but you definitely don't want to use it in shellac.
Ideally use 100% Industrial Mentholated Spirits (100% IMS or 100% Ethanol same thing different names).
100% IMS is not easy to obtain and mostly available in 4 lt tins containers from good paint shops.
You can use 95% but it may bloom easier if you're polishing in humid or wet conditions.
Unless you've got yours through an act of parliament, it will not be 100% proof. All metho will have a couple of percent of denaturant in the mix to make it unpalatable.
If you're buying it in bottles it should be marked somewhere on the bottle with either 100% or 95% usually in bottom left or right corner of label.
If you're not sure if it has water in it pour a little into a bottle and add a drop of mineral turpentine to it. Shake it and if it has even the slightest milky look about it there is water in the mix. If it has a very milky look then it has a lot of water and is not for polishing anything other than glass.


For what it's worth when you first start using Hard Shellac it's a good idea to start with a weaker mix until you get used to using the rubber. up to 4 parts meths to 1 part shellac. Doesn't build as quick but helps you get used to the application process.

Apply a number of the weak coats until you feel confident using the rubber (pad) and are happy with the way it is going for you.
Then switch up to the 50/50 mix.
Apply at least one coat before using any oil as lubricant.


As for the drips:


Don't do it.... Rubber, is way too wet. Even so, work to the outside edges not from the outside edges and you should avoid drips.
Glide your rubber off the work when you come to edges. Dont start on the edge rather glide your rugger onto the work a little inside the edge of the work.
But first:
Wring out your rubber so that it's not wringing wet before you start.
As Brian said. Have a clean sheet of white paper (not news paper) beside your work and press out any excess liquid before starting.
I use a clean piece of pine or other timber for this as there were always scrap bits around, but the paper's a good thing.
I would also tap the face of the rubber down hard on the scrap wood regularly, to keep it the face nice and flat and help to bring a little more of the shellac to the face of the rubber.


Hope this is a little more info and of some help to you although you already got some good help from Brian and SingwithFishes although I'm bit of a non Olive Oil fan.

Cheers - Neil :U
A Polishers Handbook (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html)"

[homey]

Thanks, Neil - can’t get better information than that - straight from the master!

I buy IMS from Timbecon, where I also buy Hard Shellac :U

Thanks again,

Brian

[Dengue]

WOW !! How good is this Forum. What a great group so willing to share their experiences. Many thanks to you all for helping me out. I need to re-read all this, and then get back into it.

My first problem area is the shellac appeared to dry out immediately I smeared the surface with the rubber, so much so I could not go back over it. It would be quite tacky. This happened on the first layer as well as subsequent layers. This means starting right at the edge, causing runs. Finishing at the other edge was no problem, just gliding it off. Probably too much shellac in the rubber, as indicated above. I presume the best way would be to start in the middle and then lift off both ends.

The video links given by homey and singswithfishes show up the rubber going back and forth all over the workpiece non stop until he gets a nice shine. I never knew you could do that, and I have certainly been unable to do so. On the boxes I am doing, I run parallel smears of shellac, and hope to cover up any imperfections next layer.

I went and got some paraffin oil and eye dropper from the Chemist last night, so will put a couple of drop on the rubber to see it that permits me to do that.

Thanks again everyone

[Dengue]

Sorry Neil, pressed the wrong icon. I don’t want pictures with your post :)

[ubeaut]

Thank goodness for that.

This How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRIPkzgUTM) is an excellent video on traditional French Polishing goes for 18+ minutes but really shows pretty much all you need to know.

Sorry about the glide on glide off which is more for brushing shellac. with the pad glide it on and then work the entire surface, working to the edges and not going over them you will see in the video. Make sure to change the pattern of the rubber from circles to ovals, figure 8s long ovals and figure 8s etd then straighten out along the grain occasionally.

Hope this is of more help.

:U

[Dengue]

Another problem has just cropped up. The lid of a box I am making is a plywood panel with a 10mm black bean frame, with the panel sunken down into the frame so that there is a lip of 2mm all the way around the ply. The frame is about 170 x 150.
I have tried to shellac the frame and panel with a rubber, but the join of the panel and the lip of the frame ends up with shellac pooling in the corner of the join and looks unsightly.
What would be the best way to go about doing this?

[homey]

Joe, if you’re getting pooling you have waay too much shellac in the rubber/pad. If you tap the rubber on your inner wrist it should feel damp not wet. See earlier post about pressing on clean paper until there is no real wetness. Too much shellac will cause exactly the effects you describe - pooling, runs, uneven surface and sticking.

The rubber should be moved in different ways, circles, figures of eight etc as described by Neil. Pressure should be light at first, then as the rubber dries out you can apply more pressure as long as it isn’t sticking. If it starts to stick stop immediately. Go and have a cup of tea and come back when the surface has dried. I’ve stuffed more shellac finishes due to keeping going when the surface got tacky than all other causes combined :-

It’s well worth practising with the rubber on sanded scrap. I know it sounds complicated but it isn’t and soon there comes the ‘Aha!’ moment when overything just seems to work.

Good luck!

Brian

[woodPixel]

My Ubeaut book is in storage....

Q - once this is all done and finished, is there a period that it is left to completely dry/harden?

[homey]

Yessir! 20 days according to the Hard Shellac page on ubeaut.com.au:

”After shellac has been dissolved in ethanol* it is possible to introduce additives that cause the shellac to cross link after it has dried. This cross linking takes about 20 days to completely cure, less in hot weather.”

Brian

[ubeaut]

If you pit a point on your rubber you should be able to get into those edges and corners.

Traditional rubber should be a pear shape with a bit of a point at the front rather than what seems to around everywhere on the internet, looking like a mini plum pudding in a bag.

Below is page from Polishers Handbook with info on making a trad rubber. Click for bigger view. The finished rubber bottom right illustration if tapped flat as i mentioned before can be made to and almost knife sharp front edge that should fit into all sorts of tight areas like you described.

Other option is to use a brush but get a good one. The brush below is a Camel Hair Artists Watercolour mop. will cost around $20-$25. It is a natural bristle brush and a 1 inch brush will hold about as much polish as a 4 inch brush off the shelf in any paint.

The beauty of this brush is that it has the ability to get and hold an almost razor sharp edge along the tip of the bristles enabling you to get into almost any edge and corner. It is also extremely soft and will leave no brush marks on the finish. The bristles are fine and there are way more in a 1inch mop than in a 4 or 5 inch brush.

I have demo piece that had 5 coats of Hard shellac on it and it looks like it's a piano finish. Those 5 coats were done over the period of 1 day, one on top of the other, no sanding between coats and nothing was done to it after the last coat. it was done over 20 years ago and has been kicked from pillar to post during travels and at exhibitions, etc. I have a number of these brushes also a dozen or so very small natural bristle brushes for getting into problem areas, carvings, etc.

I also a set of 3 French Ox Hair brushes 1", 2", and 3". Purchased from Gramercy Tools (https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-SHEBRU.XX) New York USA. Specifically for use with shellac, they are the bees knees. Brilliant. Cost around US$120 (landed here in Aus0 some 18 years ago (bit dearer now) but still well worth the money. Best money I ever spent. They are also pictured below. These also can be drawn to a razor sharp front edge. If you look at the Gramercy tools link have a look at the making of a brush. Fascinating bit of video and well worth a look or two. Here's a link to it on >YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUoIXtiPO5A&feature=emb_logo)< bit easier than finding it on their site. Video runs for a little over 4 min but is definitely worth a look.
:2tsup:

485169 485172485174
The above are all from the latest version
Fifth Edition 2016 of "A Polishers Handbook (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html)"

Cheers :U

[ubeaut]

Sorry took 20 minutes to edit it with some pics etc.

[Dengue]

I put about 5 coats of shellac on a timber case which had one vertical side open. This was done 2 days ago, allowing about 10 minutes between coats.
Today I picked up this case, fingers underneath, thumb on top side, and found my thumb left a smudge. Can anyone pleasse tell me why this happened and how to avoid it in future?

It is 30-32 degC during the day here, and the humidity is 90% at night and in the early hours of the morning, dropping to a minimum of 65% during the day, on average here in Townsville at the moment.

The good news is that I very lightly sanded the top with 400 grit and wiped the nearly dry rubber / pad over the top and the smudge appears to have gone.

So much to learn with shellacing :)

Just opening Neil’s “ A polishers handbook” 4th edition. I would not have read this manual for over 10 years

[yvan]

I had the opportunity to practice applying shellac with a brush on plywood I later used to make some shelving. I used a 2lb button shellac cut: diluted back 50:50 with metho for coat #1, 75:25 for coat #2 then full strength for #3 and a 2". It was applied with a cheaper synthetic brush with light sanding in-between.

It certainly was an interesting exercise !! I made sure that the brush was used in one direction only to avoid going over the same area twice. I also found that by paying good attention to loading my brush consistently I would avoid getting a mix of wet & much drier streaks, particularly with the 1st coat. After reading UBeaut's advice, I am sure that using a quality brush will make all the difference.

I also tried as much as possible not to overlap the brush strokes as I could see that the layer of shellac was thicker where I had done so. This was the hardest. Instead of overlapping I would leave a "gap". Very obvious with the 1st coat but not so much with #2 & #3 coats !! So, I should perhaps continue the process by applying additional coats with a wad to blend the layers together?

I used button shellac because I quite like the tone but it is certainly not a clear brew. I suspect though that the particles in suspension would act as a filler.

Cheers Yvan

[homey]

Joe,

If the shellac was still soft after a couple of days my first question would be how old is the shellac? Once mixed shellac gets old it doesn’t dry properly. Neil’s product has a “use by” label and I go pretty much by that. Unfortunately I’ve no experience polishing in the temperature/humidity combination you get in Townsville - let’s hope Neil is still reading this thread :)

As to finishing inside the box, yes - more often than not I give the inside a coat (dewaxed). Mainly for cosmetic reasons but also I find that the double-sided tape I use with linings adheres better to the shellac than to bare timber.

Best regards,

Brian

[Dengue]

Ahhhh... never thought of that, Brian. The Ubeaut bottled white hard dewaxed shellac is 18 months out of date, could well be the problem

[homey]

That’ll do it every time :U

[ubeaut]

Ahhhh... never thought of that, Brian. The Ubeaut bottled white hard dewaxed shellac is 18 months out of date, could well be the problem

:o

That will definitely be the problem without a doubt.

Had I been around earlier when you mentioned the thumb smudge the first thing I would have asked is how old is it.

I have heard of people using the Hard Shellac up to 2 and ven 3 years out of date and getting a good result. This could be more down to the hardener than the shellac. I most certainly wouldn't trust it at that age. Ideally you should use most shellac within 6 mths however we use a heavier concentration of shellac to metho which gives a longer life and usinf 100% ads more life as does the hardener, but after 18 months I wouldn't be using it.

After shellac expires it will appear to dry but won't fully harden. EG; finish on a table with out of date shellac (any sort) will appear to be dry and hard but put a pot plant on it for a few days and when you remove it there will be an impression of the bottom of the pot on the surface of the finish. Pit the pot plant on a doily and you will have a nice doily imprint left in the finish.

Sorry for the bad news. :B

[Dengue]

Many thanks for this valuable information, Neil. I have only just read last night in your Polishers Handbook about esterification where the alcohol adversely impacts on the shellac resin past its use by date. The beauty of a shellac finish is that I can wash it all off with metho and start again :)

I was telling my wife about how the shellac I was using was 18 months out of date and would not dry properly. She went to the fridge and bought out a cardboard box from deep inside it. On opening, it was 500 gm of fine white shellac powder in a vacuum sealed plastic bag. There was an invoice in there too, date Oct 2012. She had been storing this for 8 years. She told me I had asked her to keep it cool when I first bought it as it was very expensive. She said she had asked over the years if I still wanted it stored. Puts up with a lot, does my wife, but is totally supportive of my woodwork hobby. It was not long after 2012 that I gave shellac away, not having any success with it on my boxes. I was using a very fine brush, and I was hopeless at it.

I dissolved 24 gm of this powder in 100ml of Diggers 95% metho last night in a tall plastic sealed container, and within 5 minutes it was totally dissolved. There appeared to have waxy deposits on the sides of the container. Will let it dissolve for another day, and then try it out on some fine sanded timber to see if it drys OK

At this stage I doubt if I will need to buy any white dewaxed shellac powder for a while, which I have now stored in a sealed plastic jar back in the fridge

[Dengue]

When I first start polishing a box with shellac and a rubber on a box surface sanded to 600 grit, I put down three runs side by side, slightly overlapping. When I then go to start rubbing all over the box surface in various patterns, like in the videos mentioned above, the first run becomes tacky straight away.

What am I doing wrong?

[homey]

Hi Joe,

If it is only the first pass that is getting sticky I’d guess that there was too much shellac on the rubber.
I’m no expert, but these guidelines work for me:

* Rubber made from worn cotton or linen
* A thin ‘cut’ of shellac. In the case of Hard Shellac I thin the bottled product to 50/50.
* Old mixed shellac is a nightmare. Fresh shellac is a dream.
* Only ever a moist rubber, never wet. Blot on a piece of white copy paper until any shiny wetness is gone.
* Keep the rubber moving - never stop on the surface. Glide on, glide off.
* Don’t move slowly - it increases the likelihood of sticking.
* A small amount of mineral oil on the outside of the rubber - just enough to prevent the rubber from sticking.
* Look for the vapour trail behind the rubber.
* At the first sign of the work becoming sticky walk away until it has had plenty of time to dry.
* In my case I prefer to add shellac by opening the back of the rubber - just personal preference.

Polishing is a bit like learning to drive. At first it seems impossible to steer, indicate, change gear, manipulate three foot pedals. Amazing how quickly it comes together, though.

Best regards,

Brian

[Dengue]

Thanks Brian. Yes, I thought the wetter the rubber the better, being nice to see that thin run of wet shellac on the timber. Big mistake. Back to the practice board for me

[woodPixel]

Stupid question, but if I have unused dry shellac still in the bottle, sealed well, is it still usable even if a few years old?

[Dengue]

Hi woodPixel, not a stupid question, and a very important one. Were the shellac flakes kept in a cool location, like in a fridge?

Extract from Neil's "A Polisher's Handbook" 4th Edition : Flake Shellac has virtually unlimited shelf life if kept dry and out of direct sunlight.... To determine if your shellac is good, put some in metho, and if it not dissolved within a couple of days, CHUCK it out"

[auscab]

When I first start polishing a box with shellac and a rubber on a box surface sanded to 600 grit, I put down three runs side by side, slightly overlapping. When I then go to start rubbing all over the box surface in various patterns, like in the videos mentioned above, the first run becomes tacky straight away.

What am I doing wrong?

Well your doing one thing right Dengue . You keep trying and asking :2tsup:.
At some point it will get better . I wish I could give you a few ten minute in workshop lessons .
Id enjoy seeing the penny drop .

One thing to remember with FP is what ever you do in the first two sessions, it hardly shows . If they are done right you will just see progress at the end of the second session but its the third session that really is rewarding . And from then on it gets even better . Nothing really shows in the first session if you just keep going at it apart from " Ive gone to far and what I put on is coming off !"

First session your laying down a foundation to work on, so wipe on as many straight coats as you can , and practice wiping them around in circles and figure eights to the point of it almost coming off , let it sit a few minutes and lightly, with a wet rubber rub it straight and then leave it a day . It should be sticky enough for a fly to get stuck if you get good at it .

Next day get some fine worn 320 or 400 grit paper and give it a cut back with a linseed oil / mineral turps soloution 70 / 30 mix. Cut it back as hard as you can without hitting raw wood . It wont take much, no problem if you do but practice counting how many circles it takes to go through and then stop before that .

Now do the second session same as the first , lay it on straight so you get evaporating trails but building layers and then go into circles and 8s again as much as you can but really pay attention to not wiping off yesterdays first session . It'll be getting sticky too. If your doing well at the end of this like I said you may just start to see the grain starting to fill . Depending on the wood type as well . Let it dry a day .

Now the third session, starting with an Oil and turps cut back again, will start to look better with the cut back and the session or the body of shellac you are giving it after the cut back will be the first time you see things changing in a big way . You probably wont get total full grain but it will be well on its way . Knowing when to stop trying is a feel thing through these sessions and doing it wrong will teach you . Its easy to burn through if trying to do too much at once .

The shellac mix can be pretty thick with the bodying sessions but watch how thick shellac behaves and leaves tracks like grooves on a record . It doesn't matter when bodying because the oil and turps cut backs flatten it off later and its all about filling the grain . But after your happy with the grain fill and going into finishing sessions , session 5 say, after the carefull cut back the shellac must be thinned quite a bit .

You can take it down in stages but the final sessions are real thin .

Thin shellac may take longer to lay slightly but finishes a lot finer and beautifully using oil . Ive always stuck to Linseed oil for this . Will try some paraffin one day . I once used Olive oil just as an experiment . It seemed to work ok .
The art of using Oil for finishing off and really thin shellac at the end gives great results . I'm talking thin like a coffee mug full of metho with an egg cup full of shellac mix as I remember the way the u-beaut bottle I had a while back came . Its a pretty thick good value for money mix . I just tested a coffee mug with an egg cup . 8 shots of metho to one shellac would have it over flowing .
When you mix shellac like this or thicker try wiping a well squeezed rubber over the back of your hand and blow on it to feel the metho evaporate then feel with your lips how tacky it is . That'll show you how much shellac is there and that your actually leaving shellac on the job .

When bodying in the first few sessions you need to control how much is leaving the rubber by squeezing it . If your leaving wet trails on the job , rooster trails I call them, like Motor bike riding in dirt does . Your not getting anywhere good with that . So figure that out . You can lay on a lot with each circle in early sessions but no Rooter tails . The wetness can be used as a lubrication on the sticky sessions when you get skilled enough . As you get to finishing session stages though you must squeeze that rubber real dry after its dipped for a re fill . Its got to be a wet rubber but only just coming out with a wipe on the job , or on the back of your hand . I squeeze down a newly re filled rubber til no drops can be had from it .

Hope That's a bit of help to you .
Ill probably re read for mistakes and edit them a little later. There's got to be some in that .
Rob .

[ubeaut]

To determine if your shellac is good, put some in metho, and if it not dissolved within a couple of days, check it out"

If after dissolving it looks like mushy cornflakes... Throw it out.

If it hasn't started to dissolve within a few hours chances are it's not going to be too good as shellac. But if it does mostly break down over the next day you can strain off any rubbish and it can be used as a knot and sap sealer. If it doesn't work for that..... chuck it.



If it's white or dewaxed white shellac hasn't been refrigerated at all and has been through even a few really hot days it's a 95% bet it won't be any good as shellac. One reason to only buy it from someone who keeps it refrigerated and not on the shelf. I wouldn't buy it off the shelf.
If it's white or dewaxed white shellac and after mixing there are fine sandy looking solids in the shellac then it has at some stage been heat affected and may not work properly as a portion of the shellac is mot mixed in and never will.

Both # 1 & 2 above can be mixed down with 10 parts metho and used as sanding sealer, although that works better with dewaxed shellac.

I have seen videos about white shellac where they say you have to filter off the solids after you make it. This is part of the process. NO IT'S NOT! It means you've been sold poorly stored shellac that's been heat affected and will not work to it's full potential. That's one reason to buy good quality white premixed and with a best by date clearly on the container.

FINAL TIP. Never buy shellac in a tin, never store shellac in a tin, never pour shellac of any sort into a tin for storage. Shellac and tin don't like each other. Tin (any metal) will turn shellac black and make it all but useless. Shellac is an oxidising agent and will rust metal overnight if it's in contact with liquid shellac.


Thanks Brian. Yes, I thought the wetter the rubber the better, being nice to see that thin run of wet shellac on the timber.

Did you have a look at the video link I put on in earlier post How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRIPkzgUTM) if so you would have seen how dry the first applications were.

[delbs]

Stupid question, but if I have unused dry shellac still in the bottle, sealed well, is it still usable even if a few years old?I had the same thoughts reading this thread.i picked up a tub of shellac from memory at the Canberra or Sydney wood show years ago. Has largely been in dark cool (maybe there's been some hot days in there) dry cardboard box storage over the years. It doesn't have a package date on it it's just empty

I poured a small amount into a jar with 100% metho about 18 hours ago and looks like mushed up corn flakes. I'll leave it longer but just seems to have gone off

I suspect I'd just need to buy another and use it within 6months as it says on the tub lol. I wasn't aware of this use by date



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[woodPixel]

Yeah Delbs, you and I both. I buy so many things with the INTENTION of using them :)


UBEAUT, have you considered updating your site at all?

[delbs]

Yeah Delbs, you and I both. I buy so many things with the INTENTION of using them :)


UBEAUT, have you considered updating your site at all?Ha why do you think I'm hand tools only/mostly this time. Two rules are restore tools to USE them and use my materials instead of collecting and hoarding like I used to haha

My shellac fell into my old hoarding rules unfortunately.

I do however need to buy a copy of the polishers handbook so perhaps some shellac can sneak into that order ;)

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[ubeaut]

Stupid question, but if I have unused dry shellac still in the bottle, sealed well, is it still usable even if a few years old?

Not Stupid as per Delbs post #28 above.

If shellac flakes are kept cool, away from bright light and heat, and not in a tin container they should last for many years. Heat and bright light are problematic. Keeping in a fridge is a good idea, an esky in the coolest part of shed or house should be fine but just anywhere in the shed which on a hot summer day could be in the high 40s'isn't a good idea.

Delbs Geez it must be old haven't done Canberra for around 10 + years and Sydney not much less.
If it looks like mushed cornflakes after 18 hours it might just be no good. Probably been heat and/or light affected at some time. Give it a stir and if it goes to all liquid it should be alright. If it's still moosh... Nup it's no good. If it's left without stirring or agitating it could look like moosh and still be alright if it dissolves when stirred.

For what it's worth. We keep all our shellac and made up finishes in a 40ft. refrigerated shipping container at between 8c/12c constant but can get up to about 16c/18c on really bad 40c+ day(s). Good place to have lunch on a 40c+ day


UBEAUT, have you considered updating your site at all?
The current site is updated from time to time, but I'm currently in the process of building a new online shop with attached Blog and eventually with videos and other helpful stuff.

However it's taking for ever and a day to get done. The current site is antique and I built it all myself back around 1998 or 99 I have no trouble doing whatever needs to be done on it and never have. But the new one is all but finished and I'm to the point of pulling my hair out because I can't get my head around the back room stuff of design, final layout, etc. So having to rely on a third party to do this and it's frustrating.

Should have been ready to go live a couple of months ago.

The old site is a bit of a dinosaur, but easy to work on. The new one should be great but it's a complete and utter pain to get set up.

[Dengue]

Hang in there with the new Ubeaut shop website, Neil. I feel your pain. I too wrote the website for my son’s Strutmaster business over 10 years ago now, but the web design software has all changed with CSS and styling and blocks etc. The site is antiquated too, but I would not have a clue how to modernise it. He will have to go to a web designer

[yvan]

ubeaut,

Thanks for the YT link. A simple to follow and very instructive demonstration.

No wonder my few attempts were not the best: I was "flooding" the surface by using too big and too wet a pad !!!!

From now on it will be golf-ball-size pads and drops of shellac rather than generous squirts of the stuff!!!


Cheers
Yvan

[jack620]

Did you have a look at the video link I put on in earlier post How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRIPkzgUTM) if so you would have seen how dry the first applications were.

Good video. I started a new thread with this question, but lost the lot when I submitted it. Golden Rule- always compose lengthy threads in Word first.

In the video he dusts a fine coat of 4F pumice onto the raw timber before the first coat of shellac to act as a grain filler. I went to Carbatec today to buy pumice. They sold me U-Beaut Tripoli powder which they assured me was the same thing. After a bit of research I found it isn't pumice. It isn't rottenstone either. According to the U-Beaut website it is used AFTER French polishing to remove blemishes and impart a sheen.

So regardless of what it is, does anyone know if it is suitable as a grain filler for French polishing? If so, does it show up as white on dark timbers?

[ubeaut]

Golden Rule- always compose lengthy threads in Word first.

Better still compose it in note pad as Word often puts weird code into the post which doesn't always work well with these forums.


I started a new thread with this question, but lost the lot when I submitted it.

If you lose a post/thread. Start it again in a new text box and you should see a note at the bottom of the box saying Restore Auto-Saved Content. if you click on that you should retrieve all you had originally done up until the last Auto Save.

When you're typing into the text box, the forums will Auto Save your post/thread every minute or two. You may notice a little yellow note pop up in the bottom rh side of text box every now and again saying Auto Saved. If you see it then that will be the last point you can restore to if everything goes left handed in the next minute or so....

So unless your fingers are lightening fast on the keyboard the worst you might lose could be a sentence or only a few words.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

PS being the eternal pessimist, if I'm working on something big or have to leave (often happens) before I finish a post I will Select all (Ctrl A) Copy (Ctrl C) and paste it to Notepad for safe keeping.

If I've been working on same for a very long time I do the same without saving. Just in case I've been Auto Logged Out. Hasn't happened for a long time now but I'm still wary of things like that.

[woodPixel]

Drafting in email is my trick (Thunderbird).

It fixes my terrible spelling too :)

[ubeaut]

OOPS!:doh:
Sorry I got carried away and completely forgot the bit about the pumice.

I went to Carbatec today to buy pumice. They sold me U-Beaut Tripoli powder which they assured me was the same thing. After a bit of research I found it isn't pumice. It isn't rottenstone either. According to the U-Beaut website it is used AFTER French polishing to remove blemishes and impart a sheen.

So regardless of what it is, does anyone know if it is suitable as a grain filler for French polishing? If so, does it show up as white on dark timbers?

Tripoli Powder is definitely not Pumice Powder. It has been called rotten stone in Aus for a long time but it's not rotten stone/rottenstone either. It is Tripoli Stone. Mined in the US or the stuff we get is.
Tripoli Powder is: A porous, friable, microcrystalline siliceous rock of sedimentary origin that is composed chiefly of chalcedony and microcrystalline quartz.

What we sell is called Air Float Cream (AFC) which is the finest grade and named so because if you throw some into the air it will hang there for quite some time.

Yes it can be used to fill the grain and as it basically goes in almost colourless it blends in well with most woods. However because it is so fine it may clog the pores of your rag.

Pumice doesn't really fill the grain with pumice although a portion iof it ends up in the pores. It fills the pores with the dust of the wood as the pumice is basically grinding the surface of the work like sandpaper and pressing the shellac sodden dust into the pores of the wood. So it's more a case of filling the wood with itself.

You can also use a very small amount of our Talc in some white shellac to fill the pores of very open grain wood. Maybe a teaspoon of talc to 250ml shellac. Brush on leave to dry well and sand with fine abrasive (no courser than 600 or 800 grit). The talc makes the sanding easy as it helps to not clog the abrasive. Works best with dewaxed shellac and can also be used with our sanding sealer. Don't do too many coats of it loses it's transparency and starts to become a bit translucent instead.

[jack620]

Yes it can be used to fill the grain and as it basically goes in almost colourless it blends in well with most woods. However because it is so fine it may clog the pores of your rag.



Fantastic. Thanks for the info Neil.