It appears to be over / An apology

[rrich]

This evening, CNN sort of declared that the state of Pennsylvania has gone for Biden. The absentee ballots and vote by mail ballots seem to be running 70% in favor of Biden. With the 20 Electoral votes going to Biden, his total is over the needed majority plus one.

Trump is attempting to disqualify the mail in votes as most come from opposition areas. He is having lawyers attempt to use the courts to disqualify the mail in votes. It is very doubtful that the legal maneuver will succeed.

To all my friends in Australia and the remainder of the planet, please accept my apology for the previous 4 years of pain, suffering and stress inflicted by our lack of leadership. As a leader, one can not see where they are leading when they suffer from a cranial / rectal inversion.

[BobL]

Humm . . . . I wish but can't help thinking it's just started. As they say it ain't over till the fat lady sings or Elvis leaves the building

[Lyle]

I have a friend working in one of the tally facilities. A bit scared with DT supporters toting guns and shouting "stop the count" , "jail the counters" and other derogatory stuff. They've been basically barricaded inside.
These idiots bring guns to vote?????:oo: :oo:
At least I saw Biden saying keep calm and let the process go on peacefully.
May you all be safe.
Lyle

[woodPixel]

Yes. I feel we've seen only the opening act.

The next 4 years are going to be hell for the USA. If Trump is forcibly dragged out (which he will) you can guarantee he won't shut up about it (expect an unending 4 year petulant tantrum) and will run a vicious campaign next time.... then his spawn next after THAT.


Yes, Lyle, those gun carrying rednecks are a worry. Imagine this....

484311

[Chris Parks]

Would the Republican party allow him to run under their banner in the next election? I can see him being banned from all the popular social media once he is out of office and that will really wind him up and he might perhaps create his own social media to carry on the good fight. I can't comprehend how anyone with an ounce of intelligence would vote for him but people of his type seem to be able to attract followers for some reason.

[markharrison]

Would the Republican party allow him to run under their banner in the next election? I can see him being banned from all the popular social media once he is out of office and that will really wind him up and he might perhaps create his own social media to carry on the good fight. I can't comprehend how anyone with an ounce of intelligence would vote for him but people of his type seem to be able to attract followers for some reason.

It's hard to know how this is going to play in the long run.

There are at least 10 million more people that voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016. In 2016, you could be forgiven because even though he was then a public figure; his ability to manage was based on his fictional alter-ego, the great wheeler-dealer, hard-man "boss" in a reality television show. He clearly has no talent for actual management, but yet an additional 10M extra votes. To use that US expression; Go figure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The fact that senior serious figures in the Republican Party like John Bolton fell hook, line, and sinker for the whole grift speaks volumes about the judgement of those people. Will the Republicans abandon all of its principles and run him again? In my opinion, yes. That primary process is going to be brutal for anyone who has a last name that is not Trump though.

The big but; Trump is facing a whirlwind of legal peril after January 20, 2021; and he knows it. A lot of it at a state level so beyond the ability to pardon himself for; assuming that is even legally possible.

Plus there is somewhere north of $400m USD of debt that is coming due for Trump in the near future. He might well be bankrupt (again). I don't know what the eligibility requirements are for candidates for President, but it is hard to imagine that a bankrupt or convicted felon would be eligible. That said, it would not surprise me if that is okay. The USA has some unusual election practices by comparison to most developed countries!

On a personal level; I was approached by a recruiter for a US company in late October/early November 2016 and it was a great career opportunity. Most of you would not know; but we are a multi-racial family. The day after the election, I cancelled. Obviously, I could not know how bad; but I knew it was going to be bad. It has been far worse than even I thought.

Zero regrets!

[Lappa]

I’m not a Donald fan but we have been peppered with a lot of commentary lately - not much choice as it’s on every news channel/station/ paper. Will Biden be any better - really? Many political commentators, economists etc, say the USA and the rest the allies are going to be in for a rough ride.
Different type of rough ride than under the current admin but still a rough ride.

[Bushmiller]

Plus there is somewhere north of $400m USD of debt that is coming due for Trump in the near future. He might well be bankrupt (again). I don't know what the eligibility requirements are for candidates for President, but it is hard to imagine that a bankrupt or convicted felon would be eligible. That said, it would not surprise me if that is okay. The USA has some unusual election practices by comparison to most developed countries!





Mark

Bankruptcy does not appear to be an impediment to become the supreme leader of the US. Trump had already been bankrupt six times prior to 2016.

Bizarre?

Regards
Paul

[markharrison]

Mark

Bankruptcy does not appear to be an impediment to become the supreme leader of the US. Trump had already been bankrupt six times prior to 2016.


Your number gels with my recollection.

However, there is a difference between having once been bankrupt and being an undischarged bankrupt; in most legal jurisdictions anyway.

[justonething]

Humm . . . . I wish but can't help thinking it's just started. As they say it ain't over till the fat lady sings or Elvis leaves the building

The fat lady is singing, her name is Georgia.

RRich, all is forgiven now. I feel for you guys in the US. Stay safe regards from the Virus Island.

[ian]

This evening, CNN sort of declared that the state of Pennsylvania has gone for Biden. The absentee ballots and vote by mail ballots seem to be running 70% in favor of Biden. With the 20 Electoral votes going to Biden, his total is over the needed majority plus one.

Trump is attempting to disqualify the mail in votes as most come from opposition areas. He is having lawyers attempt to use the courts to disqualify the mail in votes. It is very doubtful that the legal maneuver will succeed.

To all my friends in Australia and the remainder of the planet, please accept my apology for the previous 4 years of pain, suffering and stress inflicted by our lack of leadership. As a leader, one can not see where they are leading when they suffer from a cranial / rectal inversion.
I wish I could be more positive ...


Biden and the Democrats have not won control of the US Senate.

The US is, if anything, more divided on partisan political lines than ever.

Since the Republicans lost control of the House 2 years ago, almost no legislation has been passed by the US Senate.

A I understand the US political system, even as president, Biden needs the US Senate to confirm his cabinet choices. What is the probability of this happening if the US Senate is controlled for at least the next 2 years by the "Party of Trump"

And if this happens what will Biden's approval rating be in November 2022 when the House and 1/3 of the Senate is up for re-election?

[Glider]

As I sit watching the celebrations on CNN, there's no sign of Trump's storm troopers; those gym muscled beer bellied men toting assault weapons in arms adorned with brave paintings and whose courage increases in proportion to the size of their gang.

All will depend on what their beloved leader says in response to his loss.

mick

[woodPixel]

What's to say he must concede anything?

Maybe he'll use the 3 months to wreck the joint...

What's to force him to offer a "smooth transition"? Perhaps he'll say no. Perhaps his team will bar entry until 11.59pm on the last day!

..
..
Remember, George W had 9/11....

[elanjacobs]

As others have said, it is most definitely not over yet. There will be lawsuits and all the obstruction they can get away with.

I don't know how much better Biden will be (especially if the Senate stays red), but at least we can look forward to the President not being a a morally bankrupt husk.

[Glider]

The result doesn't become official until 6 January when the electoral college is appointed and meets to ratify the result.

Every electoral official in the country has been put on notice for months by Trump. In the absence of any immediate evidence, it's highly unlikely that any of the lawsuits will prevail. The previous litigation has been slapped down by the courts.

mick

[Lappa]

There was an article some weeks ago saying that Trump was stacking the Supreme Court just for this very scenario. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[woodPixel]

Is the Electoral College required to accept the votes of the people?

My understanding of the USAs voting system is that it's NOTHING like here.

The presidential vote is more of an internal party-member vote. Then the delegates from each area *listen* to that vote and put forward theirs *based* on that. Its more of a very strong suggestion.....

So it entirely feasible that a place might get 99.998% of the vote for a thing and the delegate overriding that.... (now, that might be unpopular, but it can be done...)


One simply cannot rock on up, say who they are and tick a box. A person has to register as a party member first? THAT gets you through the door and once inside THEN you get to get to choose?


Sort of like the vote we had here recently on the gay marriage referendum... like the pirates code! More of a ... guideline....

[rrich]

Ian,
The best I can say is "Oh God". My hope is that sanity will prevail. But then we just endured 4 years of Trump.

I watched the Harris / Biden speeches tonight. My first election was 1964. I have voted in every election since then, save one school board election after we moved out of state. In my lifetime I have never observed the spontaneous celebrations in the many cities that were happening tonight.

Since I was involuntarily 'Retired' Cinco de Mayo, 2003 I have worked 18 different elections as some sort of a poll worker. For a variety of reasons I did not work this years election. During Harris' speech tonight was the first time that, albeit indirectly, I was thanked indirectly for my efforts.

During Biden's speech, the message was clearly to 'Heal the divide in the country'. That attitude is refreshing.

As for California law, firearms are not permitted at a polling place. People in uniform (Police or Military or Governmental) are not permitted at polling except expressly for the purpose of voting. Also, no campaign regalia is permitted within 100 feet of a polling place.

Over the years I have experienced two incidents where people tried to wear campaign regalia while voting. One was a young woman wearing a Bush "T" shirt. I gave her three options, turn the shirt inside out, wear another shirt or cover the Bush with a towel that I supplied. She chose the latter and voted. Then she tried to walk away with the towel. The second incident was a crew cut Donald Trump wearing a MAGA hat during the 2016 election. It was clear that he was there to cause trouble incidental to voting. I refused to allow him to vote until he removed his hat. He really tried to bully me until I told one of one of the other poll workers to call 9-1-1 (Police/EMT/Fire/etc.). Then he acquiesced. We insist that the polling places be completely neutral and do not allow intimidation. The neutrality is more important than 'The First Amendment'.

One election a campaign worker had placed a campaign sign about 90 feet from the entrance to the polling place that I was working. Twice I moved the sign to about 105 feet. Prior to polling day, both times it was restored to the 90 foot location. In an E-Mail conversation with the candidate, he advised me to move the sign. I told him that I didn't want to confiscate the sign. IIRC he won his election.

[rrich]

Is the Electoral College required to accept the votes of the people?


By state law, the electors are required to vote for the candidate per the voters. The electors may be so called "Faithless" and vote their choice. I am not sure about California but other states will fine a Faithless elector. The last that I saw was the fine is $1000.

The Electoral College was instituted during the very early years of our country. The intent was protect the smaller, in population, states from being overwhelmed by the larger states.

To put it simply, the Electoral College is good and bad. In 2016 the Electoral College saved us from Hillary but gave us Trump. I couldn't vote for either and voted for the Libertarian candidate. I knew he wouldn't win but I couldn't vote for either Hillary or Trump.

[Lappa]

I didn’t envy your choice this time either.

[BobL]

. . . . . Also, no campaign regalia is permitted within 100 feet of a polling place.

I wouldn't mind seeing that brought in here as well.

The difference is when a voluntary voter (such as in the US elections) turns up they usually know who they are going to vote for but our lot need a reminder so the party faithful provides everyone with a handbill size cheat sheet .

I'd still like to see compulsory voting but no cheat sheets and an alternative voting spot on the ballot paper for "couldn't effing remember".

[rrich]

I'd still like to see compulsory voting but no cheat sheets and an alternative voting spot on the ballot paper for "couldn't effing remember".

A voting spot on the ballot for "None of the above" has been discussed. The political parties were terrified.

The problem here is that the political parties have too much influence upon presenting the candidates through the primary process. Then we, the little people only have of the icky one, the slime, the child molester with good lawyers, the count your fingers after shaking hands and so forth to make our choice.

[elanjacobs]

What if the candidates had to be passed by a poll of say 100,000 random people from around the world before they were deemed fit to run in the primaries? :rolleyes:

[markharrison]

I wish I could be more positive ...


Biden and the Democrats have not won control of the US Senate.

The US is, if anything, more divided on partisan political lines than ever.

Since the Republicans lost control of the House 2 years ago, almost no legislation has been passed by the US Senate.

A I understand the US political system, even as president, Biden needs the US Senate to confirm his cabinet choices. What is the probability of this happening if the US Senate is controlled for at least the next 2 years by the "Party of Trump"

And if this happens what will Biden's approval rating be in November 2022 when the House and 1/3 of the Senate is up for re-election?

On the upside, in seventy-three days; the nuclear launch codes will be held by an adult.

Assuming we make it to then...

[ian]

Ian,
The best I can say is "Oh God". My hope is that sanity will prevail. But then we just endured 4 years of Trump.

I watched the Harris / Biden speeches tonight. My first election was 1964. I have voted in every election since then, save one school board election after we moved out of state. In my lifetime I have never observed the spontaneous celebrations in the many cities that were happening tonight.

Since I was involuntarily 'Retired' Cinco de Mayo, 2003 I have worked 18 different elections as some sort of a poll worker. For a variety of reasons I did not work this years election. During Harris' speech tonight was the first time that, albeit indirectly, I was thanked indirectly for my efforts.

During Biden's speech, the message was clearly to 'Heal the divide in the country'. That attitude is refreshing.
Look, I truly hope that Biden and Harris can heal the US's deep political divisions.

However, after the last 5 or 6 years I'm not sure that that is even possible.

From this distance I get the impression that the 2020 Presidential election came down to
1. a vote for Trump/Pence because they are NOT Biden/Harris.
2. a vote for Biden/Harris because they are NOT Trump/Pence.
3. there was no 3rd middle ground candidate.


The latest US election has set a record in the size of the voter turnout -- around 160 million.
Trump's "for" vote was some millions greater than it was in 2016 -- with 91% of votes counted, Trump had received 70.8 million "for" votes.
Biden's "for" vote is currently standing at about 75.2 million.

9% of votes are still to be counted.



but the divisions between the Democrats and Republicans will take much more than platitudes to heal.

I really truly hope Biden can do the healing, but ...

[ian]

On the upside, in seventy-three days; the nuclear launch codes will be held by an adult.

Assuming we make it to then...

I have faith that the US Military will stick to their oath to "protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States"
I don't see the nuclear launch codes being activated over the next 73 days.

[markharrison]

I wouldn't mind seeing that brought in here as well.

The difference is when a voluntary voter (such as in the US elections) turns up they usually know who they are going to vote for but our lot need a reminder so the party faithful provides everyone with a handbill size cheat sheet .

I'd still like to see compulsory voting but no cheat sheets and an alternative voting spot on the ballot paper for "couldn't effing remember".

The how-to-vote cards are unfortunately necessary. I've stood as an observer in a tally room on several occasions and the truly dumb stuff I've seen is beyond my ability to describe!

You are not required by law to actually fill in the ballot. You can simply drop it straight in the ballot box. Nobody is going to try and talk you out of it. That said, most people do take it seriously once they have that piece of paper in their hand.

Compulsory voting would change the whole nature of US politics. The lowest common denominator approach of both political parties required to motivate their "base" to turn up to vote would be neutered. The instant everyone HAS to turn up, you have to appeal to a greater percentage of the voting population. That alone would bring politics somewhere towards the centre of the US political spectrum.

[elanjacobs]

From this distance I get the impression that the 2020 Presidential election came down to
1. a vote for Trump/Pence because they are NOT Biden/Harris.
2. a vote for Biden/Harris because they are NOT Trump/Pence.
3. there was no 3rd middle ground candidate.
A friend of mine put it quite well: each one could only defeat the other

[markharrison]

I have faith that the US Military will stick to their oath to "protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States"
I don't see the nuclear launch codes being activated over the next 73 days.

I'm sure you're right.

Fortunately, the carrier of the "nuclear football" is always a USAF Colonel (If I recall correctly) so not some wet behind the ears newbie that is going to instantly cower if the toddler-in-chief bellows at them.

[yvan]

Unless I am missing something, the fact that Biden will face a Republican senate is not much different than the current political landscape in Australia. The Liberal Party happens to hold the majority in the lower house but does not control the Senate... Which, I assume, is exactly the role a second house was intended to have and be a house of review.

As much as I appreciate the benefits of both houses being of the same colour, it often encourages the passage of opportunistic and fundamentally bad legislation.

Once introduced, bad laws never seem to be removed.. !!!

[elanjacobs]

There is a very big difference: the Republican senate has explicitly stated before that they will obstruct Democrat legislation for the sole reason of it being Democrat legislation. They aren't interested in review or compromise, thus nothing will get done.

They did it to Obama, they'll do it to Biden

[rrich]

Ian,
You are so right about the vote against the other guy.

This time it was lukewarm for Biden / Harris but also It won't get cold enough to vote for Trump, ever.

[FenceFurniture]

On the day of the first Berate I bumped into an old work colleague from the early 80s. Since then he has had quite a bit to do with the US and spent considerable time there. I had privately already made the same observation that he made in our carpark chat:
"Seriously, out of 330,000,000 people, these are the two best guys you can come up with?"

Only in America. Just be glad of living in Australia where, although imperfect, the system and attitude is much fairer. Can you imagine what would happen to some twat showing up to vote with an AR15 strapped to his back?

[FenceFurniture]

I have a very sickening feeling that the "won't concede" situation will escalate. I would not be at all surprised if the Electoral College voters are beaten into voting faithlessly in the states that can swing it for a genuine election steal. The Pentagon has now been stacked. I don't know how military positions are granted, but I'd not be surprised if a purge the current leaders was at least attempted in favour of those who WOULD act against American civilians.

Can't happen? Won't happen? Remember who we are dealing with here. I doubt he would stop at anything, anything at all, to get re-elected retain power. Even if it were to cost lives.

[rwbuild]

Those with the most to loose will win

[woodPixel]

FenceFurniture, its interesting isn't it.

Everyone assumes the machine is fine, its designed to work a way, that its infallible.... until....

How many democracies have been overthrown, perhaps temporarily (or not), by the forces of conservatives/communists/fascists.

I really dont think the citizens of the USA can assume they are safe.

[ian]

I have a very sickening feeling that the "won't concede" situation will escalate. I would not be at all surprised if the Electoral College voters are beaten into voting faithlessly in the states that can swing it for a genuine election steal. The Pentagon has now been stacked. I don't know how military positions are granted, but I'd not be surprised if a purge the current leaders was at least attempted in favour of those who WOULD act against American civilians.

Can't happen? Won't happen? Remember who we are dealing with here. I doubt he would stop at anything, anything at all, to <strike>get re-elected</strike> retain power. Even if it were to cost lives.



Everyone assumes the machine is fine, its designed to work a way, that its infallible.... until....

How many democracies have been overthrown, perhaps temporarily (or not), by the forces of conservatives/communists/fascists.

I really dont think the citizens of the USA can assume they are safe.
I was going to urge both of you to calm down, but on third thoughts I won't.

Several things you need to know/realise about the US Constitution and system of Government.

1. Back in about 1917, the US House of Reps passed legislation fixing the total number of House members at 438. The reason was to do with the physical size of the house chamber, which sits in a building built in the early 19th century.

2. In 1910, the US census year on which the 438 size limit was based, the population of the US was between 25% and 30% what it is today (2020). The result is that in most states the "popular vote" is massively diluted compared to the state's Electoral College entitlement.

3. The 1787 US Constitution was deliberately drafted to exclude the US people directly voting for their President. Instead the 1787 US Constitution gave the authority on selecting members of the Electoral College to the States, only some states have delegated the authority to select their Electoral College members to their citizens.


Given this system, it is quite possible for Trump to loose the Electoral College vote -- which at the time of writing he appears to have done -- but because more states (I think it is 33) are controlled by his Republican allies, Trump can still win a majority of the electoral college vote when the college meets to actually vote in early December.

Note that given my understanding of the 1787 US Constitution, this outcome, while not according to the expressed will of the voters, is still, under the US system, perfectly legal. It does not rate as a "stolen election" as the US Constitution doesn't give US citizens the voting rights they think they have.



Now where it gets interesting is how the US military reacts.
The Military have sworn an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution". Given this sworn oath, it would be an act of rebellion for Military personnel to NOT act to protect a Constitutional provision that is at least a century beyond its use-by date.


So, I suppose my conclusion is "watch this space"

[FenceFurniture]

It's not a matter of calming down, but observing what appears to be going on. Time will tell.


...while not according to the expressed will of the voters, is still, under the US system, perfectly legal. It does not rate as a "stolen election" as the US Constitution doesn't give US citizens the voting rights they think they have. The point is that the 77 or so million people who voted for Biden will regard it as stolen, under those circumstances.


Now where it gets interesting is how the US military reacts.
The Military have sworn an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution". Given this sworn oath, it would be an act of rebellion for Military personnel to NOT act to protect a Constitutional provision that is at least a century beyond its use-by date. Trump swore a similar if not virtually identical oath. He hasn't lived up to it in four years.

[woodPixel]

Well, that's the thing about rebellion isn't it. One doesn't follow The Rules. :)

[FenceFurniture]

Somewhat relevant to this forum :D:
I just hope the Manbaby doesn't vandalise the Resolute Desk during a giant tantrum. I certainly wouldn't put it past him to carve into the top "We wuz robbed 2020" or "Donny waz here" just to try and spite Biden.

[rob streeper]

It worries me that he's been so quiet.

I've been reading Nuremberg Diary by G.M. Gilbert, the similarities are disturbing.

[ian]

I just hope the Manbaby doesn't vandalise the Resolute Desk during a giant tantrum. I certainly wouldn't put it past him to carve into the top "We wuz robbed 2020" or "Donny waz here"
you looking for a reference Brett?

"Australia Restoration Expert" or similar ?

[elanjacobs]

I'll just leave this here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZEFM7_Itk

[Chesand]

I received that and was going to post it but you beat me to it, Elan.

There was a quote in the paper the other day "he spat his dummy and threw the toys out of his cot".
A quote on ABC24 by a republican "Trump has a relatively relaxed relationship with the truth".

[elanjacobs]

Relaxed? I'd be describing it as actively hostile...

[Bushmiller]

It has been a disturbing four years.

I could talk about the legacy for both the American people and indeed the world. I could talk about the lies (several thousand have been documented). I could talk about the behaviour. I could talk about the POTUS playing golf instead of dealing with the issue. I could talk about the way the rest of the world sees him and the diminished standing he has brought to the US. I could talk about the lack of decency that others have attributed to him. I could talk about the "discussions" with the Ukrainian president and the attempt at coercion. I could talk about his reluctance to concede defeat. I could talk about the infantile behaviour. I could talk about all these aberrations, but I won't!

What I will do is ask you to view the concession speech of John McCain (not necessary if you are already familiar with it) when he was defeated by Barack Obama in 2008. I need say no more other than to ask you to compare McCain's acknowledgement and the Trump shenanigans and perhaps also watch Elan's video (again, not necessary if you have already watched).

Senator John McCain Election Night Speech (Full Video) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvgqRKYapU8&feature=emb_logo)

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

I saw that McCain concession speech. It was magnificent. Have to admit, when I saw it it changed my opinion of him greatly.

[derekcohen]

Another wonderful moment was Obama's speech to Biden, and Biden's response. Try and picture Trumpet in their shoes ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3UCW_AV93M&ab_channel=CBCNews

Regards from Perth

Derek

[markharrison]

John McCain would have been a fine US President. He was saddled with some bad luck (his opponent chosen by the Democrats) and some poor judgement (his choice of VP candidate).

In many ways, the USA was not ready for for a black President, and that kind of led to where we are. It's not just me that thinks that. Obama's memoir released next week (there are extracts in advance of release) more or less says the same thing.

And yet; on Election Day in 2008, I recall a radio journalist recording Vox pops in southern USA somewhere and one of them was a Southern lady of advancing years. She was asked who she was voting for by the journalist. Her reply was both gobsmackingly gauche and beautiful at the same time. It included the N-word. She said, "Oh, I'm voting for the <N-word>". My jaw bounced off the floor. But, here's the beautiful part; it was not said with malice but with delight. She was happy to have voted for Obama and Biden. I really wish I could find that again. It made me feel a little optimistic about the future of the USA and it finally coming to terms with its relationship with race issues.

I mean, I was wrong about the immediate future; but it is not over yet.

Before the election there was all sorts of crazy talk about a "second" civil war. Not crazy in the sense this could never happen, but crazy that it is not a zero percent chance of it happening. But really, had this occurred, this would not have been a second civil war but a continuation of the first. It's still all about "race".

I earlier mentioned that we are a multi-racial family, which is pretty vague; I know. It was meant to be.

My children are ethnically African. They are adopted. As far as I can see they are well within a standard deviation of their peers of all races. They are both net contributors to our society. I am extremely proud of both of them.

It's high time that white people (and I am white) generally got the hell over this delusion of superiority based on the percentage of pigment (or absence thereof) in their skin. We are doing much better than this in Australia than the USA; but the number of our homegrown racists is still a non-zero number. The elevation of Trump just emboldened the racists in the USA. Our racists are still keeping their heads down.

Good!

[FenceFurniture]

John McCain would have been a fine US President. He was saddled with some bad luck (his opponent chosen by the Democrats) and some poor judgement (his choice of VP candidate).Yes, yes, and yes.

<n-word>
We are doing much better than this in Australia than the USAYou reckon Mark? I don't think so. Just using a measure of black people in high office positions......we are WAY behind the USA. It's not good there, and it's not good here either. I think both countries do very badly with racism in different ways.

My parents (and general AUssie society) inculcated me with racism as a child, and it wasn't until I was about 18 that I started to come to grips with it. Their focus was my Italian BIL. Funnily enough it was food that helped me along the way - I had had a solid diet of meat & 3 crucified vege for 18 years, and then went to live with Sister & BIL for a month. I was never the same again!

</n-word>

[markharrison]

<n-word>You reckon Mark? I don't think so. Just using a measure of black people in high office positions......we are WAY behind the USA. It's not good there, and it's not good here either. I think both countries do very badly with racism in different ways.
</n-word>

We are doing better; though we are not perfect. As I said; with a few notable exceptions, the average Australian racist is too cowed to speak out much. On the odd occasion when they raise their ugly mugs above the parapet, the general population largely lobs enough ordure at them they pull their heads back in. The most recent notable example being that idiot that was too stupid even for the One Notion Party, which is a very low bar indeed. Nobody has heard of him since!

You are correct about black people in higher positions in Australia. We can do better. That said, we do not have the same percentage of ethnic African people in our population relative to the USA.

I'm talking more about the day-to-day interactions with the general population here versus the USA that African people experience. Obviously, my information is second-hand. I'm not experiencing it directly and, of course, it varies regionally in the USA. A lot! You can't compare Buttcrack, North Carolina to say any of the major cities of more progressive regions (SFO, NY, LA).

We spent several months as a family in Seattle when my children were little back in 2000. It was fantastic. We all had a great time. The locals in western Seattle were very friendly, accepting, and welcoming.

Now compare that to the way I saw African American people being spoken to in North Carolina when I visited there. I did not like NC, at all.

I'm not scared that my children might be arbitrarily detained by some racist cop on a whim and not survive the encounter. A part of that is the professionalism of our local law enforcement agencies versus the incredibly stupid way local law enforcement is structured and managed (if that is not an abuse of the term...) in most areas in the USA.

Our police are not perfect either and historically have been pretty awful too at various times. But it is not like that was the designed intention! Well; with, perhaps, the exceptions of Queensland and New South Wales in the 70's and 80's under the Petersen and Askin governments respectively...

[FenceFurniture]

the average Australian racist is too cowed to speak out much. This is exactly the problem, and it is exactly those people who have been given a very loud voice in the US. Just because the Australian versions don't feel at the moment that they can't speak out much, doesn't mean they aren't there, stewing away. Ask Adam Goodes, or a plethora of various indigenous athletes and others. I take the point about US black deaths at the hands of the Police, but white fellas don't do so well with them either (although nowhere near as badly).

Have a look at this 5 minute vid from Van Jones (black CNN reporter), commenting after the election. It's heartbreaking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ScxGsB-ks

[Beardy]

I personally think the rascism card often gets overplayed and that as a whole we are a tolerant nation.
What does get people going is when newcomers to Australia don’t want to accept or abide by our rules and ways of life because it doesn’t tie in with their cultural beliefs etc and that gets turned around in being called rascist which it is not. What is the old saying. When in Rome........

For those that don’t think that have a look at how things play out in most other nations

For the record I am also by choice a mixed race family

[Beardy]

<n-word>
My parents (and general AUssie society) inculcated me with racism as a child, and it wasn't until I was about 18 that I started to come to grips with it. Their focus was my Italian BIL. Funnily enough it was food that helped me along the way - I had had a solid diet of meat & 3 crucified vege for 18 years, and then went to live with Sister & BIL for a month. I was never the same again!

</n-word>

Lol, I remember the same when I started dating my wife and eating meals with her family, I didn’t want to go back home for mums Aussie cooking anymore and I know my wife didn’t enjoy meals there as our typical meals were so bland and over cooked by comparison as you said.
You can’t beat good wog food :D

[FenceFurniture]

A tweet from the Manbaby yesterday, wanting it both ways:
Donald Trump is claiming credit for how secure the election was, while simultaneously pushing baseless claims of massive fraud in the race.

“For years the Dems have been preaching how unsafe and rigged our elections have been,” Trump said in a new tweet. “Now they are saying what a wonderful job the Trump Administration did in making 2020 the most secure election ever. Actually this is true, except for what the Democrats did. Rigged Election!”

¿Que?

[FenceFurniture]

I personally think the racism card often gets overplayed and that as a whole we are a tolerant nation. I have to wonder what our own Indigenous people think about that. I'm not so sure they'd agree with it.

It's one thing to consider it from the point of view of those from countries that have been represented here for a while (e.g. the Mediterraneans from the 1950s and 60s), but quite another from the perspective of more recent arrivals. It seems to me that it takes at least a generation for the prejudice to subside against the latest targets.

As an example, my Italian BIL (arrived around 1964) said he was glad when the Vietnamese started arriving here in significant numbers in the late 1970s because "everybody leava me alone now, and getta offa my back" which drew much laughter.

(without wishing to stay off topic too much)

[Beardy]

I have to wonder what our own Indigenous people think about that. I'm not so sure they'd agree with it.

It's one thing to consider it from the point of view of those from countries that have been represented here for a while (e.g. the Mediterraneans from the 1950s and 60s), but quite another from the perspective of more recent arrivals. It seems to me that it takes at least a generation for the prejudice to subside against the latest targets.

As an example, my Italian BIL (arrived around 1964) said he was glad when the Vietnamese started arriving here in significant numbers in the late 1970s because "everybody leava me alone now, and getta offa my back" which drew much laughter.

(without wishing to stay off topic too much)

All my indigenous friends agree with the sentiment. Looking at the colour of their skin only taints the issue
In general a lot of their issues are shared with other sectors of our community as well.
My son lived in an aboriginal community for 18 months so has seen it from both sides and my daughters best friend and flat mate is full blood as well
Sure you still have the activist sector looking to stir trouble regardless of what is happening

[Glider]

I have to wonder what our own Indigenous people think about that. I'm not so sure they'd agree with it.

Well said, Brett.

Listen to Stan Grant. Better still, read his books, particularly Talking to My Country and On Identity. We white fellas really have no idea. Ask the indigenous bloke who, having dropped off his little one early one morning, was stopped by the cops in Chippendale recently and questioned for 15 minutes before he was allowed to drive on. It was not a traffic stop, they just thought he may have been a malfeasant.

We still have a very long way to go.

mick

[Beardy]

Well said, Brett.

Listen to Stan Grant. Better still, read his books, particularly Talking to My Country and On Identity. We white fellas really have no idea. Ask the indigenous bloke who, having dropped off his little one early one morning, was stopped by the cops in Chippendale recently and questioned for 15 minutes before he was allowed to drive on. It was not a traffic stop, they just thought he may have been a malfeasant.

We still have a very long way to go.

mick

and you don’t think that happens to other people of various target groups that are not indigenous? There are plenty of suburbs where the same thing happens to a white fella or other ethnic groups just like the police target young males with P plates. Whilst all that is not so palatable it isn’t rascism

[FenceFurniture]

Whilst all that is not so palatable it isn’t rascismEh??

I think maybe..
Listen to Stan Grant.

[Beardy]

Eh??

I think maybe..

So what is it when that same copper randomly pick a young white Anglo Saxon ( or whatever because I think it is irrelevant) in his bommodore on his way to the shops to buy some smokes?
Is that rascist too?
I am not sticking up for the copper, he/ she may well of stepped over the mark and if so should be dealt with accordingly but I don’t think it is helpful or constructive to turn it all around to being a rascism issue

When the BLM rallies were on I was shocked and surprised at the number of black deaths in custody so looked up the official statistics to check and found the percentage of indigenous deaths in custody was consistent everyone else in jail.
If there is a problem there it is across the board not just one sector of society

[FenceFurniture]

So what is it when that same copper randomly pick a young white Anglo Saxon ( or whatever because I think it is irrelevant) in his bommodore on his way to the shops to buy some smokes? Evidence of this happening? (or maybe the bommodore was just too suss?) Or is that just conjecture?



... so looked up the official statistics to check and found the percentage of indigenous deaths in custody was consistent everyone else in jail.You seem to rely on "alternative facts" and cherry picking. I think you'd best read the VERY FIRST LINE from this govt report:
Indigenous Deaths in Custody: Chapter 3 Comparison: Indigenous and Non-Indigenous Deaths | Australian Human Rights Commission (https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/indigenous-deaths-custody-chapter-3-comparison-indigenous-and-non-indigenous-deaths)

You call indigenous people being 16.5 times more likely to die in custody than non-indigenous ok? Apparently they are only 1.26x more likely to die in actual jail.....because they don't 'king make it there in the first place!!

FFS, get real man if you want to be taken seriously.

[Simplicity]

A little YouTube channel I follow,
With some interesting insights.


US ELECTION! China Responds - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AY8DiGnAek&feature=share)

Cheers Matt.

[Beardy]

Evidence of this happening? (or maybe the bommodore was just too suss?) Or is that just conjecture?


You seem to rely on "alternative facts" and cherry picking. I think you'd best read the VERY FIRST LINE from this govt report:
Indigenous Deaths in Custody: Chapter 3 Comparison: Indigenous and Non-Indigenous Deaths | Australian Human Rights Commission (https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/indigenous-deaths-custody-chapter-3-comparison-indigenous-and-non-indigenous-deaths)

You call indigenous people being 16.5 times more likely to die in custody than non-indigenous ok? Apparently they are only 1.26x more likely to die in actual jail.....because they don't 'king make it there in the first place!!

FFS, get real man if you want to be taken seriously.

This is the document I was reading which is more recent

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/sb17_indigenous_deaths_in_custody_-_25_years_since_the_rciadic_210219.pdf

[Glider]

and you don’t think that happens to other people of various target groups that are not indigenous?

You said it yourself, a target group. My very point.

mick

[markharrison]

This is exactly the problem, and it is exactly those people who have been given a very loud voice in the US. Just because the Australian versions don't feel at the moment that they can't speak out much, doesn't mean they aren't there, stewing away. Ask Adam Goodes, or a plethora of various indigenous athletes and others. I take the point about US black deaths at the hands of the Police, but white fellas don't do so well with them either (although nowhere near as badly).


I would never suggest for one moment we don't have racists. That is demonstrably true.

The racists are always going to be with us. But relative to the USA, we are doing better. An openly racist candidate is highly unlikely to attract nearly half the vote of the population here.

Remember [rhymes with] Razor Banning? In the last federal election, they received such a pitifully small amount of support they would not have even got their deposits back. I think it is highly unlikely they will appear in future elections.

One Notion party lost even more ground in the recent QLD election. The caveat I would put on that is the former Labor figure that went over to One Notion. If he were to get in a real position of control in One Notion, it would be a different game. He is intelligent, resourceful and as cunning as a rat though fortunately highly repellent. The current management of that party are so spectacularly incompetent they are no threat to anyone but themselves.

[markharrison]

You said it yourself, a target group. My very point.

mick

The young and stupid pretty much bring themselves to the attention of police everywhere, by their actions.

I highly doubt there are police picking on random white kids just for the hell of it. As I said earlier, while not perfect, our police are far more professional.

That said, based on the statistics of First Nations peoples arrests and custodial sentences, I recognise that our First Nations brothers and sisters almost certainly have a different perspective on this matter than I do.