Best way to hire day labour

[Arron]

Hi. We are owner-building a house and from time to time I would like to hire someone to help me out. Jobs might include things like laying floating floor, fitting insulation, cutting tiles, laying turf etc - so obviously not highly skilled stuff. The person would not have to be an expert at anything - just handy and fit.

The likely pattern would a a few days every couple of weeks, maybe more, maybe less.

We are on the Central Coast so there should be plenty of people around wanting work?

I realise insurance is a must (I think it’s covered by my OB insurance, I’ll have to check). I also realise there could be a requirement for a white card - I’ll have to check that too.

Can anyone suggest the best way to source such a person, and the likely hourly rate.

Any experiences, tips or traps to share?

Cheers
Arron

[Simplicity]

Put a card up in the local supermarket boards extra, local Paper, even Gum Tree.

Sounds perfect for someone semi retired actually.

Cheers Matt.

[Beardy]

If you are an owner builder you may not need anything apart from having insurance cover. I don’t think they will need a white card, are you paying as a cashie or through some form of entity?

[Arron]

Cash

[rwbuild]

The very second that you pay them even 1 cent, doesn't matter if cash or not, you are liable for any injuries or 3rd party litigation that they may cause or instigate,I;'m just saying and giving facts.........

[Arron]

I’m fully aware of the implications.

I think all insurances are in place, but I will check again.

[riverbuilder]

Put up a note at NorthShore Timber, there’s always builders looking for people to labour, I’ve found a couple of good guys like this.

[rrich]

I am not saying to do it this way but what happens here. . . . .

People looking for day work hang out at Home Depot (Similar to Bunnings). Everything from contractors to home owners drive by and pick the most suitable looking. They agree upon an hourly rate and the employer always asks about skills. The day laborer usually lies. The home owner usually takes them on weird route to their home so that they have difficulty finding their way back.

The work is done.

Cash is paid and the laborer is returned to Home Depot.

If the laborer is injured, the employer takes the laborer to an urgent care facility and pays the initial charge. If the employer is smarter than average, an additional $50 or so is left with the urgent care facility. The employer usually abandons the laborer at urgent care.

The employer doesn't want a hit on their workman compensation insurance because of the paper work. It is very difficult as most day laborers are in the country illegally and do not have the right to work here. If the employer is the homeowner the huge problem is that homeowner insurance does not cover workers at the house.

Here it is difficult to hire an individual for day work that is fully covered, insurance wise. It is better to hire a neighbor's teenager.

[Lappa]

I’ve put a couple of Ads on Airtasker for different tasks. If they worked out well, I kept their phone numbers and ring them direct when an other similar job comes up.

[skot]

Going back to 1995 in Qld , I Owner Built an extension on my house. I got my OB permit than contacted my house insurance company to explain the situation. They assured me that people coming on site were covered. I also contacted the Building Authority and asked about Workers Comp. In a normal workplace situation Workers comp is paid based on the amount of people that work on the site ...something that I could not control or quantify but I was informed that each contractor should have their own workers comp for their workers so it was up to them.

Now in my case, I actually had a roofer ,who was working for the roofing contractor, fall off the roof and injure himself but the contractor tried to save money and didn't have any worker's comp and thought I had cover.
He made a claim on Worker's Comp ...they got in touch with me and said that couldn't find any policy or payment. I explained the situation that I was an OB and that the injured worker was working for the contractor. Worker's Comp then told me that I was in the clear and they would go back to the contractor for submitting a false claim and not paying their premium. I did tell the roofing contractor that he was free to make a claim against my house insurance but he didn't do that as he had enough fighting on his hand with Worker's Comp.

I would be asking all contractors if they have worker's comp cover their workers. If you are looking for a single person who doesn't have worker's comp they may be covered under your house insurance.

The problem with Day Labour on a casual base, you may be able to get Worker's Comp but how do you quantify how many workers you will be using and over what length of time they will be working.

[rrich]

You blokes have it better than we do with the insurance.

Oh, BTW - About 10 or 12 years a go I was building cabinets for my garage. A person walks up asking me to build cabinets for his kitchen. He was wearing a short sleeve dress shirt and Kaki slacks. (To me I smelled a rat.) I told him that I couldn't because I didn't have a contractors license. He was insistent as I was more adamant, NO. He left rather irritated. As he was leaving I noticed that his license plates were exempt, as in a government agency. There is a neighbor on the street that doesn't like me and it really POs me that I can't figure out who.

[Beardy]

In NSW ( don’t know what happens elsewhere) you cannot get workers compensation for yourself even if you wanted it. WC is only for employees and mandatory so unless you are getting an employee of a Company or business they won’t have WC cover. Sole traders can only get accident and sickness style cover.
So regardless of method of payment or length of time on the job they are deemed employees of whoever is engaging them
Being that you are working on your own house and not running a business as such the rules may not apply ?
Best to get clarification from your insurer as to where you stand. Owner builders are very uncommon these days with the current guidelines

[woodPixel]

Its a bit odd isnt it, that we are moving towards a "gig" economy, that an owner cant ask a tradie for "their papers".... a single number or ID, that one can visit a single site that simply shows:

-- ABN
-- Name of owner (the neck to strangle)
-- Length of business
-- Insurance cover and name/number/current
-- Liability " " " " "
blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH
-- Ability to report dodginess


Everything is taken at word - both from the OB and the business.

We certainly don't want the abusive system as explained by Rrich - what a horror. Its akin to slavery. Poor bastards.

[Simplicity]

Its a bit odd isnt it, that we are moving towards a "gig" economy, that an owner cant ask a tradie for "their papers".... a single number or ID, that one can visit a single site that simply shows:

-- ABN
-- Name of owner (the neck to strangle)
-- Length of business
-- Insurance cover and name/number/current
-- Liability " " " " "
blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH
-- Ability to report dodginess


Everything is taken at word - both from the OB and the business.

We certainly don't want the abusive system as explained by Rrich - what a horror. Its akin to slavery. Poor bastards.



I get asked all the time, do I have insurance?
Answer Yes.
Do I have a ABN Number ?
Answer Yes(stupid question it’s on my business card,
It’s on my quotes it’s on my invoices).
I have in the past been asked to provide proof of insurance.
Answer yes, here’s a copy of paper work extra.

I even tell clients to check other trades that they have a valid ABN(easy to check on line,on your phone even)

Cheers Matt.

[Arron]

I get asked all the time, do I have insurance?
Answer Yes.
Do I have a ABN Number ?
Answer Yes(stupid question it’s on my business card,
It’s on my quotes it’s on my invoices).
I have in the past been asked to provide proof of insurance.
Answer yes, here’s a copy of paper work extra.

I even tell clients to check other trades that they have a valid ABN(easy to check on line,on your phone even)

Cheers Matt.

No, not a stupid question at all. It’s common for people to have various licences, then to loose them through non-renewal, but not to upgrade their stationary. We spotted a couple of people doing this while searching for various trades and a builder. One had even been deregistered and was prohibited from dealing directly with potential customers. So ignore the stationary and do the checks.

[Arron]

Tomorrow I’ll ring my insurers and get all this sorted out, but just to clarify one theme appearing in this thread. I’m a certified owner builder working under an owner builder permit, so I’m responsible for everything that goes on in my building site to exactly the same degree as would a professional builder or building company. There are no shortcuts or soft options involved in owner building when your o.b. permit is the ‘builders licence’ on the construction certificate.

Ps. I’m still keen to hear views on the other part of my question - that is, what is the going rate for ‘general hand’ type workers on construction sites?


Cheers, and thanks for the responses so far - there are good ideas I never thought about.

Arron

[Handyjack]

While I do not work on construction sites, I do work as a Handyman for myself.
How much to pay is always a good question as to what is a reasonable rate? I charge about $60 an hour, plus materials. I do use all my own tools and transport and have my own insurance (public liability). Normally I might be on the same job for 1/2 to 2 hours.
In your case, if they are on site all day, depending on skill pay $ 30 - 50 an hour. Set your rate before hand though. Say $ 300 for the day, or $ 400 for a particular task depending on how long it might take. If they are using their own tools such as a diamond tile saw be prepared to pay a bit more.
If it is just a case of clearing rubbish and moving bricks around the site and you are providing a wheel barrow, brooms and shovels, then the lower end might be acceptable.

I am sure as you ask around you will get a feel as to what people expect.

[AlexS]

No, not a stupid question at all. It’s common for people to have various licences, then to loose them through non-renewal, but not to upgrade their stationary. We spotted a couple of people doing this while searching for various trades and a builder. One had even been deregistered and was prohibited from dealing directly with potential customers. So ignore the stationary and do the checks.

+1

When looking for someone to re-seal & tile a shower recess I think there were more who were practising while unlicensed, or without the necessary license, that those who were correctly licensed. There were a number who had licenses in the name of another company. Wonder why?

[woodPixel]

The last from AlexS is exactly why we need a tradie-check site.

I watch on Instagram a guy called EliteTradieAnthony (https://www.instagram.com/elite_tradie_anthony.c/).... he's great.

At $60 an hour, one should be getting an artist, not a grunt.

[ian]

Tomorrow I’ll ring my insurers and get all this sorted out, but just to clarify one theme appearing in this thread. I’m a certified owner builder working under an owner builder permit, so I’m responsible for everything that goes on in my building site to exactly the same degree as would a professional builder or building company. There are no shortcuts or soft options involved in owner building when your o.b. permit is the ‘builders licence’ on the construction certificate.

Ps. I’m still keen to hear views on the other part of my question - that is, what is the going rate for ‘general hand’ type workers on construction sites?
Arron
The national award rate for completely "unskilled labour" is almost $25 per hour -- including the 25% loading for casual hire.
For that rate you should expect a totally "thumb in bum, mind in neutral" dog's body.

I would expect to pay extra for any level of "skill" such as knowing how to cut tiles to a line, etc.

On top of that will be loadings for "own tools" etc.


Then there is the issue of Superannuation Contribution -- currently around 9.5% ??
If you are being totally legit -- no shortcuts, no soft options -- you will have to factor superannuation into the rate. After all, you are the "employer".
So the "official hourly total compensation" for unskilled labour would be about $27 and $28 per hour. Of course, if the casual employee has their own ABN, then super contributions are their responsibility. But you should still expect to include dollar amount of the contribution into what you pay them.

Agree upfront on what the half-day, full-day compensation will be (and how many hours constitute a half or full day).



Returning to the other issue you have alluded to ...
even if you pay in cash you should still provide your "unskilled employee" with a daily or weekly statement of the amount paid. (More bloody paperwork)
The employee is then responsible for declaring the amount received to the ATO.

[Beardy]

Rate of pay is really whatever you agree to. Ask a few of the tradies you are using if they know of someone who might be interested

You will get students doing it for under $30 hr or you may pay more for someone with a better skill set

It depends if you are paying by cash or as a legit employee. Cash will work better for you

[AlexS]

You might be lucky. Many years ago I was about to start laying bathroom tiles when there was a knock on the door. It's a kid about 14 or 15, Boy Scout doing Bob-a-Job week. I asked him if he knew anything about laying tiles, he says "Sure, Dad's a builder."
He comes in, knows more about cutting & laying tiles than I did, we got the job done in about a quarter the time it would have taken me and the MIL. Forget what I payed him, but it was more than a couple of bob.

[doug3030]

The national award rate for completely "unskilled labour" is almost $25 per hour -- including the 25% loading for casual hire.
For that rate you should expect a totally "thumb in bum, mind in neutral" dog's body.

Bunnings Team Member on his day off? :rolleyes:

[Arron]

All sorted now, thanks to Airtasker.

And for those thinking of doing the same - I checked the insurance issue.
- If someone in my employ is hurt due to my negligence (and it is so proven) then my OB insurance covers that.
- If you are hiring someone in NSW and total yearly expenditure on hiring is less then $8700ish per year and meet several other conditions (which I do) then you are an exempt employee - and non-negligence injury claims are funded out of iCare. There are some minor processing and lodgement fees in the event of a claim.
- Superannuation etc not relevant.

And Airtasker does cover the insurance - although in my case it doesn’t need to as explained above.

Cheers
Arron

[Beardy]

Good to hear you have it sorted Aaron, as a builder those exemptions don’t apply. I had a labourer who worked for me for a day and 3 years later claimed he hurt his back on that day and went me for workers compensation which they are legally entitled to do.

Your arrangements are much less onerous

[riverbuilder]

Here, on the river, if they hurt themselves, we just throw them overboard on the way home at the end of the day.

[Arron]

All sorted now, thanks to Airtasker.

And for those thinking of doing the same - I checked the insurance issue.
- If someone in my employ is hurt due to my negligence (and it is so proven) then my OB insurance covers that.
- If you are hiring someone in NSW and total yearly expenditure on hiring is less then $8700ish per year and meet several other conditions (which I do) then you are an exempt employee - and non-negligence injury claims are funded out of iCare. There are some minor processing and lodgement fees in the event of a claim.
- Superannuation etc not relevant.

And Airtasker does cover the insurance - although in my case it doesn’t need to as explained above.

Cheers
Arron

Yep, worked out fantastic. I hired a guy to do the first job and now I’m getting him back to do others a couple of days a week. He’s a keen worker and a self starter with a good general building knowledge and, I have to admit, is better at most building tasks then me. Long may it last.

[The Spin Doctor]

Interesting thing about insurance...


From my experience in QLD, insurances are a hit and miss thing. If it's a well established organisation it's probably all good but even then I've seen alsorts of games played to avoid liabilty payouts. And the more home do it yourselfers, the adhock, and handyman operations are probably not insured. Once you breach the law in any way, the insurace company isn't obligated to pay out. And those latter groups almost always violate the regulations and or laws in some way, either ignorantly or deliberatley it doens't matter.


Have just done a few jobs with a particular fellow that is a licencess painter and calls himself a handyman. Always says he's insured, and quite confidently so to the nervous customers. Can even prove it... But the work always exceeds the handyman limit of 3300, so ultimatley he's not insured in anyway. He got lucky the last job. Developed a hernia, but the insurance company didn't look into the job. He was organising other trades, go paid will over 7000 by that time, so they paid for his 6 weeks off. If there's any future issues with the work he's done, it's most assuredly he's not covered. But because I'm not his keeper I don't feel it's my place to levture him how to run his business, as long as he keeps paying on time that is.